Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: OneofSorrow on <06-02-14/1258:58>
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My favorite player has come up with another hair brained scheme of theirs. They read the parageology book and actually liked it alot. Even took ranks into until they got it all the way up to six.. This has manifested as a weird character hobby such as getting geologist month, taking weird trips to go rock hunting and even so far as visiting the Seattle volcano. Said adept has it in mind to forge what he calls the ultimate sword for himself and is actually wanting to start a run to run or go hunting for Primal Fire to create a flaming weapon. I think it is a cool idea, I like it when people come up with run ideas myself but when looking at the benefits of creating a weapon from either primal breath or fire one of the abilities is it manifests the element. In the case of said flaming sword I am wondering how much of a DV increase that would be to a sword that he is going to turn into a weapon focus. After all the fire is going to do some damage if not look cool (stand out too but I've yet to point that out to him. Let the player dream). Figured I ask my peers to see if they have any idea how much of a DV increase I should allow when the guy shots flame on and his sword combusts.
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I'd say just make the DV (fire) with a negative AP modifier of the "Force" of the blade; since this kind of thing isn't covered in-game at all, you're on your own on this one ;)
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Moch like martinchaen said. But the the elemental damage itself is nice effect. The AP could be like force, just look up how firebolt works in 5th ed. For me, it is just fine
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DV stays the same, but it gets the elemental effect of fire and the bonus of being a magical focus. The fire's not making the sword more likely to cut through things, but it could sure as hell light something on fire.
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I dunno, I can see everyone's statement of not increasing the damage, but most players will want that to go up, if even minscule.
One option could be to add a +1 to the DV total, but would add rating/2 in AP. So Force 6 = +1 DV / -3 AP.
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You could just give the sword the Energy Aura (fire) critter power, which he could turn off and on at will. So attacks with the sword would have +(Force) DV and the AP of the weapon would become -(Force) AP, and obviously, he has a chance to set stuff on fire whenever he uses it.
Is this a little nutty? I don't really think so, since a magician can just summon a fire spirit that can do this all day from go, while your adept is going on an epic quest to get exotic reagents valued in the millions of nuyen, and then presumably going through the completely ludicrous steps necessary to actually create a weapon foci, which is a test you cannot spend edge on and can potentially permanently damage his Essence.
If he actually succeeds, he deserves a badass super sword as a reward, in my opinion.
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no idea what to do with this sword, i just wanted to say how much i love your player for his/her initiative and willingness to move things along, and you as a gm for allowing such a thing to happen.
Too often, people forget that our job as a gm is to figure out how to say "yes".
BIG up
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Very cool idea. However, there are some problems that need to be worked out. First and foremost, True Elements are very volatile, and very unstable. Also, just being enchanted does not give the weapon the ability to withstand blows like a sword of hardened steel does, for instance. The reason alloys exist is because there are many, many, many materials that need to be mixed out of their 'pure' form to be hard enough to actually be useful. This is why you don't see pure gold anything. Gold is soft, to the point where if you made a ring out of pure gold, you could easily crush it in your hand. Even Orichalcum, which is more common and easier to work with, is still alloyed with things to keep it from being destroyed.
Second, True Elements are not benign. They don't pick friend or foe. True Fire in its pure state will burn anything and anyone it touches, or worse.
Third, note that the value of True Fire is 1.5 MILLION nuyen per unit. Doesn't say what the unit is, but we can be sure that you'd need more than one for anything more than a Swiss Army Knife, yeah? Even if you source the material yourself, and manage to keep it from breaking down before using it in a focus, you've still got millions of nuyen on hand. That IS going to catch someone's notice.
Fourth, a sword made entirely of fire, without a spirit riding in it or a spell effect sustaining it, is GOING to make news. The moment you use this thing, your Public Awareness, if nothing else, is going to start shooting up, because you've got a fragging FIRE SWORD.
But I'm not here with just doom and gloom. You can use True Elements in the making of a focus or fetish, but they won't be ENTIRELY that element. You can use up to two units of True Elements in a focus, but the effects are listed on the bottom of Page 30 of Parageology, namely, you get to pick one of four effects from a list for each unit of True Element you use. One of those effects is the ability to manifest the elemental effect at will (and it won't harm the person it is bonded to). That means if you put True Fire in a sword weapon focus, you can have it manifest fire on the blade. In game terms, this would likely convert the damage to (fire), including the secondary effects, but the stats would otherwise be unchanged.
Or, for the same effect you can use the Fire Aura spell, get an ally spirit to have a form of a flaming sword, or somehow convince a Spirit of Fire to inhabit a sword.
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no idea what to do with this sword, i just wanted to say how much i love your player for his/her initiative and willingness to move things along, and you as a gm for allowing such a thing to happen.
Too often, people forget that our job as a gm is to figure out how to say "yes".
BIG up
The player in question is a constant source of amusement. Alot of the team was boot strapping it to begin with, preferring to have skills and attributes over nuyen so they started out pretty strapped for gear. This guy actually planned a heist to get gear for the team decker and sniper. The first one was where they got the face to go in and order a expensive cyber deck from a retail store, the one you could get for a starting character, after that adept in particular spent a week of in game time tracking the trucks that do the delivery for the mall in question and some research on the driver. The driver was boot strapping and had a wife with a baby on the way. He used the decker to make a untraceable message that if he pulled over the vehicle are a certain gas station at a certain time he and his wife would receive a 20,000 nuyen credstick. After making some of the rolls to see if thing go to planned the face goes in and orders the deck, they wait 24 hours and then at the drop off point they received the deck in question and trade the credstick. The decker armed with his new deck hack the distribution center for the deck and change the manifest so that it looks like the deck never arrived at the center. Now the team already had to put down a down payment on the deck for them to ship it, the team face had to go in and argue to get a refund from them for not delivering on time. Second heist this guy plans was to actually go to a rich hunter who has various weapons in display cases as well as trophies he has collected. Spent some time in and out of game with GM planning a heist to rob this guy. Had to get the guys schedule to know when to hit him while he was away then they had to hire a chopper to get to the helipad on a LUXURY AAA pent house, so they once more had to hire a chopper pilot then they had the decker hack hotel and actually plan in the hotel a notice from the man that he was moving from items. The decker who is a mastery of forgery had to come up with a fake shipping company and thanks to the face came up with moving uniforms. So they all pile into the chopper with specialized containers and then fly towards the pent house and land, the decker starts to loop cameras while the pent house security lets us in, they go in and like a professional moving company steal as much expensive fire arms and use the adepts and mages to identify magical items to put in the boxes for extra cash and then pack up and leave in under three rounds. However all did not go according to plan as the 'Hunter' as they began to call him actually noticed the deckers tampering and told them to let them do it. He had the security use camera glasses to record their faces and after they thought they had got away ended up being hunted by this guy for sport. :) They actually had to flee Seattle for Chicago to avoid this guy for awhile.
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Yeah he discussed this with me Mirikon but he is actually kind of committed to the job. He actually managed to get enough Ukkuru to build the blade and ran down a elven sword smith to forge a fine blade out of it and paid the smith to make a finely crafted elven jian out of it so all he lacks is the element having lined up someone to do the enchanting for the blade when he gets the primal fire and he has saved the karma to pay for the binding. Now he needs to talk the team into doing the job and selling the 'EXCESS' primal fire they find and he has even gone so far as to secure the stuff to handle it. These guys have been running since the start of 5th edition and have gone from boot strapping to pretty well off now. Still I gotta list some of the dumb things he has suggested that have been vetoed.
1. Check out the volcano of Seattle, he spent a week out there and nothing, but in his words 'I had to try, its a players duty to try the impossible. :)'
2. Go to hawaii and hurl insults at Pele, The Hawaiian Volcano God and hope one of the rocks that she hurls in anger is primal fire. REALLY BAD IDEA
3. Sacrifice the Rigger to Pele. The Rigger in question is a good guy but a bit irritating, he is always playing phone apps instead of paying attention to story. I gave this one a MAYBE but I told him his notoriety would go up.
4. Go to Yellow Stone and see about finding some there. Two words, Sioux Wildcats.
He however is hopeful, the geologist that he met in Seattle told them there are new active Volcano's in Russia.
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Props to this player. I wish I had players this inventive. He deserves his Energy Aura sword. (That's still my vote for how to handle it.)
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Yeah, if the player is willing to go through all that trouble for his fancy toy, let it be a really cool one.
I'd say give it +1DV (because it's a flaming sword, of course it hurts more) and let it use the rules for fire damage - including the AP of either a fire spell (-Force) or a flame-based weapon (-6).
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Flame based weapon sounds like a perfect modifier :)
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Mentioned binding a spirit of fire to the blade today. If he was going to pick a element he would of picked electricity but they don't have a primal lightning. :) Also he didn't want to have to bargain with his blade to make it ignite or do something as well seeing how spirits in shadowrun can be ornery and temperamental at times.
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I do love the idea of the weapon, and I agree that the player should be rewarded for his creativity. But for me, +(force)DV and -(force)AP feels like a LOT.
I mean, put this on a Katana, and assume the guys strength is a 4, you have what... 6P, -2AP base? (my numbers might be off as I'm going off memory). Add in the bonuses proposed and you'd be at 12P, -8AP and thats BEFORE rolling or considering the burning effect that comes with all things fire.
But... in retrospect, if he has to bind the weapon (ala Weapon Focus) I could see it making sense. Just a thought.
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Honestly? I really would caution against increasing the damage or AP any. You have a good chance of throwing balance right out the door with that. My advice? Assuming this is a Katana weapon focus, allow the fire effect to change the DV to (STR+3)P(Fire), and leave the rest as is. You're already getting the dice bonuses (and the ability to hit spirits) from the weapon focus thing, and the coolness of having a sword with fire on it that isn't an AR skin or a spell effect. That's pretty fragging epic, for a Shadowrun weapon, ESPECIALLY one in the hands of a shadowrunner that isn't a pet of one of the megacorps. But prismite is right, if you try adding the force to the DV and AP, you're going to get insane numbers. For instance, say you have a combat mage with STR 4, and their katana is a Force 4 weapon focus with the fire and what not, using that ruling. That makes it a BASE damage of 11P, -7 AP, doing +1 per net hit as normal. That means you're doing more damage with a sword than the street sammy is with a Medium Machine Gun and APDS ammo. Then you have spells like Increase STR, Analyze Device, and so on. It starts getting nasty, fast. And then you have the sickening realization that this could apply to other weapons, too, like a Monofilament Whip. Which (assuming all things being equal) would start at 16P, -12 AP, or BETTER DAMAGE THAN AN ASSAULT CANNON. And this is just at Force 4, not nearly the most powerful weapon focus that could be made. And after the rest of the group sees him waving that around, they're going to want the same thing, so they can keep up, and suddenly you're in a Shadowrun game where Immortal Elves and megacorps come to YOU for the latest toys.
There is "This would be pretty cool!" and then there's "Heh, let's give this level 8 character Bracers of Relentless Might and a +6 Flaming Blast Icy Blast Vorpal Scimitar!" Sometimes, no matter how hard the player works, and no matter how cool it is, a bad idea is still a bad idea. Keep the damage the same, but let it be fire instead of normal, and he'll have his badass weapon without breaking the game, or getting the rest of the group starting to want similarly broken items.
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Good points Mirikon.
But lets flip the script for a minute ... what if the character in question is not a magic user, and thus, isnt creating a magical foci with the weapon? Would you still leave it as just Fire or would you change it at that point?
Just picking your brain.
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If the user isn't Awakened, then they cannot activate the fire, or anything else. Because magic items in Shadowrun aren't like magic items from D&D. Enchant something in D&D, and it stays the same, and any idiot can pick it up and use it. In shadowrun, magic items are just a fancy nozzle to help direct the flow of mana from the hose (aka the Awakened individual). Take the nozzle off the hose, and it... is a paperweight?
Now, if you're asking whether a katana turned into, say, a counterspelling focus but is otherwise the same, then yes, I'd let them still have the fire damage, and no, I wouldn't change my stance on increasing the damage or AP.
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Mentioned binding a spirit of fire to the blade today. If he was going to pick a element he would of picked electricity but they don't have a primal lightning. :) Also he didn't want to have to bargain with his blade to make it ignite or do something as well seeing how spirits in shadowrun can be ornery and temperamental at times.
Depending how you GM spirits in your world, you could probably come up with something that makes sense if you want to allow electricity.
If you were going to bind a spirit, it could be an air spirit that was conjured from the heart of a storm (so a lightning elemental affect would be appropriate).
Or if you stick with just elements you could require a portion of Elemental Earth and Elemental Air - to represent lightning (mimicking true life so to speak). You could also have the Elemental Air gathered from a massive storm that the runners have to spend some time in -- instead of running away from! ;)
Heck - it's your world, just have Elemental Lighting as a unique one-off.
Just some random ideas! :)
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I guess what I was implying is that a katana (for example) that is forged out of a magical metal is still a katana. Yes, it could serve as a focus, but surely a magical metal could (and thats emphasized) have a non-magical property that makes it valuable to a mundane as well as an awakened.
Something as trivial as the the item being lighter than normal. Or things like that. I feel that there is room for flavor in everything, it doesn't always have to be a numbers game (which I tell my players ALL THE TIME)!!
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I feel that there is room for flavor in everything, it doesn't always have to be a numbers game (which I tell my players ALL THE TIME)!!
But... but... then how will we know when we win? ;)
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Its just a flaming Aura, not a flame thrower, so I can't see it as being a HUGE bonus in DV or AP.
For that matter, lets see what we have to match it up against.
A standard weapon focus needs Orichalum right. I haven't looked into 5th Ed enchanting but it was like 1+Reach # of units IIRC in the old days.
And what did that get you ? Adding Force # of Dice & it avoids the Elemental Immunity to weapons & counts as a Vulnerability weapon against things that have a vulnerability.
So, it doesn't change the DV at all to make something Magic.
So I'd require at least Reach+1 # of units of the Pure Fire stuff. (So 3?) Which is like 4.5 Million $$.
Adding "Elemental" Effects from Fire Combat spells seems like a good start.
+1 DV at the very most, since really I think all that will do is make it equal to a combat axe, away from books but I think that is right.
AP is regularly -2 ? Raw Fire Weapon is -6 ? Maybe Split the Difference at -4 ? Or just go a flat +1 Much like the DV boost.
The question is, no matter how imaginative or helpful the player is, are you creating something that is more powerful than anything else in game presently ?
I think as good as the Katana is, that even at +1 DV/AP its still weaker or at least similar to the Combat Axe & the Pole Arm, so as long as that is the case, then I say charge him a lot, like Units worth to match up to the Orichalum amount. And then let him go to town searching & paying to have it all forged by an enchanter.
Finally, I'd say that it only flames when "activated" so if its already turned on in its sheeth then THAT is a problem, as it burns it from the inside, but if he takes the action to "power on" the weapon like you do w/ any other foci, then that is when the flame aura appears & the added abilities kick in.
That to me seems like a decent "balance"
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After listening to all the suggestions and comments, all of them very good by the way I'm going to let him build his sword and use the stats of a katana to reflect the masterful quality of the blade and then let the blade deal fire damage along with the physical so it would be just a (Str+3P(Fire)) weapon. He seems to be cool with that and still is going to go through with it even if it he doesn't get like a +1 or a +2 to DV. The sword he is picked is a Jian, a chinese straight sword, he likes chinese sword and says the katana is way to over used in his opinion. His plan is to actually use run and gun and learn wudang sword to compliment it.
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I have to disagree with the people who are saying that +Force DV is too much. If you think a Katana with Energy Aura is broken, then you think any conjurer capable of summoning a Fire Spirit is broken.
Typical Force 6 fire spirit that any starting character could summon has Unarmed Combat 6, Agility 8, Strength 4. It thus rolls 14 dice to attack and does 10P(fire) -6 AP. Plus anything that attacks it back in Melee resists 12P(fire) -6 AP.
It's damn near impossible for a home made weapon foci to hit Force 6, since you're looking at an Artificing + Magic [formula Force] v. formula Force + telesma's Object Resistance test, with net hits determining final force. And you can't spend edge on this test, so no breaking the limit. Even with an amazing dice pool, a Force 6 weapon focus formula with max hits gives you 6 hits, against a dice pool of between 9 and 15, depending on where you think Ukkru falls on the object resistance table (It's an alloy, which would be 9, but its inherently magical, so it might get knocked down to 6 or 3). And you're expecting it to get 0 hits on that test to actually end up with a Force 6 weapon focus. Only way to reasonably achieve a Force 6 focus is with a team of artificers using a Teamwork test to increase the limit, since using a higher force formula would also give the opposed roll more dice, not to mention making the drain more fatal (Drain is equal to Formula Force, +2 per hit it gets on its Force+3/6/9 dice. Good luck surviving that even at Force 6.)
If he's lucky, he'll end up with Force 3. Combined with the bonus from a katana, that's Strength+6P(fire) -6 AP, same as a Force 6 fire spirit. And that's a spirit a conjurer can summon from creation. This sword is something only a prime runner could ever hope to acquire the pieces for, let alone craft. By the time he's actually able to use this thing in combat, a conjurer should be able to easily summon Force 8, 10 or 12 Fire spirits, which would easily outclass him in damage, AP and even dice pool.
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I guess what I was implying is that a katana (for example) that is forged out of a magical metal is still a katana. Yes, it could serve as a focus, but surely a magical metal could (and thats emphasized) have a non-magical property that makes it valuable to a mundane as well as an awakened.
It would be a very pretty katana, that the team's mage realized he could bind and become more powerful with? Other than that, there really isn't any difference between a weapon focus and a normal sword. And it is not a magical metal. Only living things have magic. A weapon focus sword is constructed to channel mana from the bound mage's aura through the blade in a certain way. That is all. There is no inherent magical property of a weapon focus sword. Now, if you want some items that have inherent properties, even for mundanes, look at some of the minerals and alloys in Parageology.
I have to disagree with the people who are saying that +Force DV is too much. If you think a Katana with Energy Aura is broken, then you think any conjurer capable of summoning a Fire Spirit is broken.
No, because unlike with the sword you're talking about, a mage has to incur drain every time he summons a spirti. Also, unlike you, I have enough foresight to see where things can lead. You see, a mage of a possession tradition with Channeling would be able to summon a spirit and have it possess himself, gaining all the benefits of the spirit's powers, while enabling him to retain his own abilities. So then you have a mage with a katana that does +Force DV and AP, casting Increase (Attribute) spells, wearing armor, casting armor spells, getting a boost to attributes from having the spirit in them and, depending on spirit type, potentially gaining the spirit's elemental aura to thow on top of that, giving a FURTHER increase to AP and damage. (Oh, and gaining ITNW as well, because possessed.) At that point, only a dragon or a very high level initiate will have a chance against him.
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Also, unlike you, I have enough foresight to see where things can lead.
What a rude way to slide down the slipperiest slope possible and act like the absolute most power-gamey result is the only outcome.
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Wow Mirikon you seem to think spirits are nice and cuddly. I don't know about you but asking a spirit to possess you seems like a extremely stupid idea in the first place. Not only are you letting this thing joy ride in your body you have to worry about it subverting you and over powering your personality and doing whatever it wants with your body. But lets say for example you do this, first you have to summon your spirit. Then while you are summoning it said adept is going to unload on you with a full auto burst of its yamaha raiden. You have to worry about the bullets drilling you into chunky salsa while you are forcing a spirit to go into your body. And you wouldn't need a dragon or a high level initiate to take you down either it take one sniper, lining up the mage who is raining fire down on people adding a extra hole to your head. And if the spirit, which by the way are NOT HAPPY ABOUT BEING SUMMONED, some how subverts your will it probably going to take your sword and slit your throat to get rid of the pesky meat bag that dares summon it, providing the spirit possessing you doesn't burn out of your body.
There is a reason people say scrag the mage first.
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Wow Mirikon you seem to think spirits are nice and cuddly. I don't know about you but asking a spirit to possess you seems like a extremely stupid idea in the first place. Not only are you letting this thing joy ride in your body you have to worry about it subverting you and over powering your personality and doing whatever it wants with your body. But lets say for example you do this, first you have to summon your spirit. Then while you are summoning it said adept is going to unload on you with a full auto burst of its yamaha raiden. You have to worry about the bullets drilling you into chunky salsa while you are forcing a spirit to go into your body. And you wouldn't need a dragon or a high level initiate to take you down either it take one sniper, lining up the mage who is raining fire down on people adding a extra hole to your head. And if the spirit, which by the way are NOT HAPPY ABOUT BEING SUMMONED, some how subverts your will it probably going to take your sword and slit your throat to get rid of the pesky meat bag that dares summon it, providing the spirit possessing you doesn't burn out of your body.
There is a reason people say scrag the mage first.
First, the spirits of possession traditions are not the same as the spirits of other traditions (really, spirits of any one tradition aren't the same as spirits of any other tradition). Second, he brought up Channeling, which makes your scenario impossible (your scenario is also problematic due to assumptions of foreknowledge, and assumptions of not having the spirit already summoned/bound). Third, self-possession is a very normal thing for some of these traditions (Voodoo especially).
Spirits summoned by a Hermetic might be pissed off (though SR5's text does suggest otherwise), but the spirits summoned by a Shaman were bargained with, and certainly wouldn't be. And the loa summoned by a houngan or mambo are worshipped as fragging gods.
Though I think we can all be pretty sure that Possession is going to be bound to Augmented Maximum in SR5, which will bring it somewhat more in line.
@Mirikon: Seriously, dude, you could have found a much better way to say that.
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I only know shadowrun 5th man so I'm not familiar with the 4th edition rules. So I will admit ignorance of those rules on my part. Me and several others are foaming at the mouth for Street Grimorim
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Still, it's actually SR5 rules that spirits don't, in general, "hate being summoned". Probably not to pleased about the disrespect of oversummoning, but that's a different case - normal course of events, spirits aren't going to want to kill you for having summoned them.
Play them up as cantankerous or trying to get as much as they can while giving as little as possible - in fact, I encourage it - but if they're outright hateful and vengeful against you, you can't even properly roleplay most Magicians.
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Play them up as cantankerous or trying to get as much as they can while giving as little as possible - in fact, I encourage it - but if they're outright hateful and vengeful against you, you can't even properly roleplay most Magicians.
Good point, I'll remember that. Thank you for the advice. That is some advice one of my other GM should listen to however cause he is one of the reasons I play a adept and not a mage myself.
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Also, unlike you, I have enough foresight to see where things can lead.
What a rude way to slide down the slipperiest slope possible and act like the absolute most power-gamey result is the only outcome.
*shrugs* I suppose I could have dressed it up with some kittens or flowers or something, but if I see a spade, I call it a spade. As for slippery slope, first, you're using it wrong. Slippery slope is when you say if X then Y will definitely occur ("We've got to stop them from banning pornography. Once they start banning one form of literature, they will never stop. Next thing you know, they will be burning all the books!"), without going through a logical progression. This is not that. This is saying "Look what happens when you mix bleach and ammonia in Chemistry class!" If you are looking at a potential ruling and say "Well, with a low-mid force focus, this is clearly no different from a spirit" that's like saying "Well, we have several servers for the Sims, so I'm sure they'll never be enough people online at once to crash everything." It is called basic awareness of the consequences of your ruling. It is the reason there are libraries filled with case law, and people whose only job is to go researching through all that case law for precedence. You don't plan for 'Meh, good enough'. You don't prepare against, "Maybe it'll just be a couple goblins". That is how broken drek gets into games, and utterly destroys things. Oh sure, it might not be a problem this game, but what about the next? What about when someone else wants the toy, is built a bit differently, and (rightly) points out that since 2+2=4 in the other game, it can't be 3 now, even though their character is more powerful than the one the ruling was originally made for. That is exactly what 'foresight' means. You look ahead, see where things can go. Because sure, on the face of it a ruling might not be that bad, but if you run your game without thought to precedence, then things can (and usually will) spiral out of control.
OneofSorrow, yeah, spirits don't generally hate being summoned, unless you have a history of being a dick to spirits. It is important to note that most shamanic and possession traditions tend to place a strong emphasis on being respectful to spirits, of all kinds. Picture you're heading out of the building, and someone asks you to drop some mail in the mailbox on the way out for them. If they're someone you generally get along with, no problem. If they're that rat bastard from down the hall who always plays his music too loud when you're trying to sleep, however...
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The sad part is, the book example actually happens in real life far more often than the chemistry example does (mainly because most students don't know to try it until they're educated enough not to do it). And, yes, I do know groups that followed that exact progression in how they viewed things. There's also that one famous historical example from the late 1930s to early 1940s... So, the book one would actually be a better example of a true logical progression since it actually happens far too often.
And, to be honest, it would help if you had posted a logical progression; you didn't. You just assumed that the players would begin abusing it massively right off the bat. Which, generally, typically only happens with players who abuse everything right off the bat and would have been a source of a complaint thread on here. Even the most famous abuses that DnD has suffered in its roleplaying rules were things that players didn't bother to abuse immediately, but only started abusing later when they became familiar with the rules and pondered about the implications of certain combinations; and, even then, often that was also a gradual progression. There is no reason to think this will become abused immediately or that it cannot be easily controlled.
Instead of just assuming the player is doing this just to have something to abuse, a simple warning about watching it for abuse potential would have sufficed. Especially since I can name a couple dozen things that are legal by core rules that are massively more abusive if used (did you know you can mount a scope on an assault cannon and turn it into a sniper rifle capable of seriously injuring even some dragons?).
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Honestly Mirikon, the sword is the least broken thing involved in that ridiculous list of things that hypothetical character did. It's also completely irrelevant to the actual discussion, which is this specific character wanting to build his specific fancy weapon. It's a one of a kind thing only he has, with a truly absurd investment cost, not only in terms of nuyen, but also time, energy and roleplaying.
No power-gaming munchkin would bother with all that crap. You're already using possession spirits. It'd be easier, cheaper, and have higher numbers to get an Ally spirit that inhabits your katana, which would also have more fancy abilities like shooting fireballs, causing confusion and glitches in enemies, and you know, having its own initiative passes.
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No power-gaming munchkin would bother with all that crap.
Hmm. You do make an excellent point. That actually helps reinforce my initial thought process of how I would "enchant" the weapon based on the PC's actions. If he is willing to put that much footwork into a project I'd give him at least a small boost.
But still, very good point.
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No power-gaming munchkin would bother with all that crap.
No kidding, especially since just the price of the Primal Elements he needs is enough to build a castle in the middle of Seattle and buy a drone army to defend it.
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At one point he had acquired enough money to BUY at least one of them but refused stating he rather roleplay for it. Although in the up and coming campaign I mentioned their being a mana storm in the area and both him and one of his comrades eyes kind of lit up. "Will their be primal air." They both said in unison. I actually pulled out a pair of percent dice and rolled them....100% chance. So now these two bozo are going to go off mission to go storm hunting. I plan to dock them street cred and give them a point of notoriety if they do that for leaving the target they are suppose to guard to go storm chasing, that'll be this Sunday, but now i have to figure what an air weapon will do.
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How OP would something like removing, say, 2 defense dice on the target of the weapon be? The air element makes it shimmer and strike a bit faster than normal or something, It wouldn't be a "guaranteed" hit reduction on the defense test (by the 3 dice to 1 hit rule), but it would give a nice chance of it.
Of course there is also lightning's dice pool and initiative reducing effects to play with.
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How OP would something like removing, say, 2 defense dice on the target of the weapon be? The air element makes it shimmer and strike a bit faster than normal or something, It wouldn't be a "guaranteed" hit reduction on the defense test (by the 3 dice to 1 hit rule), but it would give a nice chance of it.
Of course there is also lightning's dice pool and initiative reducing effects to play with.
For that effect, call it a Reach bonus to incorporate existing rules.
But I say If your players are going to make multiple Primal Element weapons, keep the effects consistent. Since you've decided that Fire just adds the fire element to the weapon, you should do the same for primal Air. I've always liked using the Blast element from Street Magic as the wind element.
If you don't have Street Magic from 4th edition, blast makes it easier to knock down targets and destroy objects. Add the Force of the weapon focus to the damage dealt for determining Knockdown, and objects with a Structure rating less than the Force may be knocked over, shattered, shredded or otherwise swept away with ease.