Shadowrun
Shadowrun Missions Living Campaign => Living Campaign Discussion => Topic started by: KarmaInferno on <06-02-14/2308:37>
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The current rule for new sourcebooks is that they become Mission-legal 30 days after the print release date, or just 30 days after release date for PDF-only books.
However, it's been nearly two months since Run & Gun was released in PDF form, with not even an announcement when we might expect the print edition to hit the market.
Would it be reasonable to revisit the standard 30-day rule if these delays keep happening?
-k
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The related question - how do we know if a product has a print release? Where can I go to see if Gun Heaven 3 or Stolen Souls is going to be a print product*?
* If you say "the forums"...not a good answer for the general public.
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Go to the BattleShop and see if there's a print-and-PDF combo. Or ask your FLGS to check with their distributor.
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Karma: Unfortunately, the rule stands. Mainly to keep the playing field level for all players. Many SHadowrun players do not buy PDF books (There's a surprisingly large subsection of players who barely even look at the PDF offerings or even pay attention to release dates and upcoming books. They just pick things up when they show up at their FLGS. Thankfully, this subsection is shrinking, but still). Allowing these products earlier based on the PDF date and not the print street date, especially around convention season when we get the most people playing, is basically telling players that they HAVE to get the PDFs if they want to stay competitive with their fellow players.
I'm all for more PDF sales, but ultimately, this isn't fair to all our players. :(
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http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=28_193&products_id=3185
http://www.amazon.com/Shadowrun-Fifth-Edition-Jason-Hardy/dp/1936876515
I have reason to believe that BattleShop is not a credible source of information, given they seem to think the SR5 core rulebook hasn't been released yet.
Searching Amazon, however, reveals that Run and Gun physical copy is announced... but Amazon has one of their placeholder dates, so there's no release date set yet.
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I have reason to believe that BattleShop is not a credible source of information, given they seem to think the SR5 core rulebook hasn't been released yet.
I know it's a little pedantic, but the question was a source for which products will be printed and which will be PDF only. While the last line of the BattleShop listing does suggest the SR5 book is still in pre-order, it also does say that the product in question is a hard copy book. It answers the question that Fedifensor asked.
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I know, but the question was asked in relation to the timescale of waiting before something is Missions-legal. If Fedifensor were to trust BattleShop, he would still think that the SR5 core rulebook is not Missions legal yet. So you would be trading him not knowing whether or not a book will ever be printed to him having reason to believe that the waiting period on Missions legality is spotty in how it is applied.
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Might not be a bad idea to include a list of products that are Missions legal as a sticky post in this forum?
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How about the official website. Haven't seen much there for missions lately. Would make for a sensible location to my mind, along with the missions FAQ and other related documents...
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I need an intern to handle this stuff.
The website is a whole other pile of problems. Let's... Lets not discuss that for now, shall we?
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As long as it doesn't involve skimpy uniforms, I could volunteer for that ^^
The skimpy uniforms are a no-go for a very good reason. Not because I wouldn't wear them, but because everyone else would be horrified by them. Plus, I need to lose about 30 pounds of what looks like a beer belly to have the right figure... so, it would be like sticking a Bigfoot version of Homer Simpson in a miniskirt.
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Seconded; if it's all about collecting information and submitting it for upload, consider this post my application for the internet hamster position :-)
Even if it isn't, there's got to be a handful of people right here who'd volunteer to do this kind of stuff, unpaid labour and all that good stuff.
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What we probably also need as temporary fix is a post with direct links to the announcement posts of books on the blog. These always mention whether there will be a physical book, while also having the links to purchase in them. That is something fans can easily help maintain and is quite low-burden, so wouldn't require an intern.
(What would likely require an intern is someone digging through every post Bull made and extract possible FAQ-updates from them. While people can ask and get the answer, people who only have the official FAQ at hand might get confused by the book and for example think a 5/2 contact only has 5+2 dice, rather than 5+5+2, or think Quick Healer works the way Hero Lab has it work, with a +2 on healing others as well.)
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Did a quick look through here and dumpshock and found the following items:
*Quick Healer - It only effects the player who has it.
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=16346.msg288642#msg288642 (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=16346.msg288642#msg288642)
*Connection+Connection+Loyalty plus a few other clarifications; -
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=39372&st=0&p=1249714&hl=loyalty&#entry1249714 (http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=39372&st=0&p=1249714&hl=loyalty&#entry1249714)
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Below is a work-in-progress list and not official or any such thing:
Allowed Books/PDFs
ShadowRun 5th Edition Main Rulebook
Assassin's Primer
Gun H(e)aven 3
Sail Away Sweet Sister
Disallowed Books/PDFs
Run & Gun
Stolen Souls
Bullets and Bandages
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Assassin's Primer is street-legal nowadays.
And yes, you managed to find them, but that was because you knew what you were looking for. It can be real hard to find every ruling+clarification Bull made that isn't in the FAQ.
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Forgot about the Assassin's Primer. Added that and Gun H(e)aven 3 [that's Missions legal if I remember correctly].
I was attempting to compile his rulings in one place to make it easier to get the rulings & supported books/pdfs into the FAQ. Hmmm, maybe they should get moved to their own post.
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Is the Enhanced Fiction line PDF-only, or is there print versions planned?
Because it's certainly been more than 30 days since the PDF releases of Sail Away Sweet Sister and Vladivostok Gambit.
-k
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Karma: Unfortunately, the rule stands. Mainly to keep the playing field level for all players. Many SHadowrun players do not buy PDF books (There's a surprisingly large subsection of players who barely even look at the PDF offerings or even pay attention to release dates and upcoming books. They just pick things up when they show up at their FLGS. Thankfully, this subsection is shrinking, but still). Allowing these products earlier based on the PDF date and not the print street date, especially around convention season when we get the most people playing, is basically telling players that they HAVE to get the PDFs if they want to stay competitive with their fellow players.
I'm all for more PDF sales, but ultimately, this isn't fair to all our players. :(
Thanks for addressing at least.
My concern is not specifically on Run an Gun, but more generally a worry that if these print delays become excessive that's no good for Missions either.
-k
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Is the Enhanced Fiction line PDF-only, or is there print versions planned?
Because it's certainly been more than 30 days since the PDF releases of Sail Away Sweet Sister and Vladivostok Gambit.
-k
I think they are PDF only, although down the line there could be a compilation book come out for some of the PDF only resources, like happened in 4th Edition.
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As long as the PDF only resources are fine then I'm happy buying PDFs.
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Searching Amazon, however, reveals that Run and Gun physical copy is announced... but Amazon has one of their placeholder dates, so there's no release date set yet.
My dealer here in Germany told me that I'd have to wait until November for the English edition to arrive. Well...
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Karma: Unfortunately, the rule stands. Mainly to keep the playing field level for all players. Many SHadowrun players do not buy PDF books (There's a surprisingly large subsection of players who barely even look at the PDF offerings or even pay attention to release dates and upcoming books. They just pick things up when they show up at their FLGS. Thankfully, this subsection is shrinking, but still). Allowing these products earlier based on the PDF date and not the print street date, especially around convention season when we get the most people playing, is basically telling players that they HAVE to get the PDFs if they want to stay competitive with their fellow players.
I'm all for more PDF sales, but ultimately, this isn't fair to all our players. :(
Bull,
As a former European I feel like I have to speak up for my European friends in this case, as I think one needs to consider that physical copies of books are not always easy to obtain; with shipping costs as high as 40USD per order, physical books just aren't fiscally viable for a lot of Europeans.
Digital releases on the other hand are much easier to get a hold of in most non-US markets, and it seems to me that the above statement caters more to the minority than it does the majority; to my mind, this rule isn't fair at all, because by catering to the lowest common denominator (people who only buy physical copies of books) you make me, someone who exclusively buys PDF products, kind of feel like I've bought and paid for a product that I now can't even use at all during conventions. Where's the fairness in that?
If anything, I think you should be embracing the technology that is available to you much, much more; if you were to allow the inclusion of material 30 days after digital release I firmly believe that more PR would be generated at conventions by the simple fact that people who have the digital releases will be using items or powers or whatnot from them, and people who DON'T have the digital releases can be awed by the content.
I strongly believe that rather than feeling slighted, these players would more actively seek out the material, maybe even converting to digital if they can't wait. To my mind, you should be welcoming the free PR that can come with such usage of the published material, rather than try to stymie the content that you've all worked so hard to create.
I really wish you take a second (or nth, at this time) look at this policy, and suggest that you ask us, your community, what we think. Start an official poll and get some numbers or something; in the absolute worst case scenario I can imagine (I know, my imagination is limited...) you end up with more information, and more information to base your decisions on has to be a good thing, no?
Cheers,
Martin
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I find myself agreeing with Martin here. If somebody is unwilling to use all of the options available to them I place that on their shoulders, and only their shoulders.
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The key word there is options; for a lot of people in the U.S., pdfs are still effectively not an option.
The reason has to do with the limits a lot of internet providers put on downloads. Those can be surprisingly small; for example, the pdf for the core Shadowrun rulebook is actually around four times the size of the limit imposed by my old internet service. If I still used them, I would never be able to download it (and keep in mind I live in a city). Limits like this are pretty common, which is part of what makes PDF-only distributions typically not as successful as PDF-book distributions.
Ironically, because of those limitations, bittorrent is a successful download program (it can be stopped and started to help you get around those limits). Which, given how most PDF-distributions are handled, means that typically anyone who has one of those limits and successfully downloaded a PDF-only distribution probably pirated it.
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Discriminating against players buying Physical Books only sounds like discriminating against FLGS. Doesn't sound like the best way to go.
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That's kind of my point though, Michael; allowing the use of digital content at conventions should hardly be considered discrimination, as it's not like anyone is treating such players "unjustly" or with "prejudice". If anything, allowing digital content to be used at conventions 30 days after release adds incentive for players to pick up the digital material, to my mind, but it does not in any way, shape, or form discriminate against players who chooses not do to so.
Players would still be entirely free to wait for the content to be released in physical format, and I don't think anyone is suggesting that someone who didn't have access to the digital content wouldn't be allowed to play in a game. In my opinion, the latter case would certainly be discrimination; there's a big difference between allowing people who to use content they have "early" access to because they bought the digital version of said content, and barring someone from a game because they chose note to.
Finally, I think it's important to recognize that even though the 30 day policy is in place, players still aren't required to buy the physical copies of new content to play at a convention. I could take the first character I created using just the core SR5 rules to a convention a year from now and still expect to have a good time, despite not having used any of the new books. Am I being discriminated against? Not at all. Am I perhaps at a disadvantage from an optimization standpoint, having missed out on some cool new rules and gear; quite probably. Is that my choice? Abso-fraggin'-lutely.
I'll be honest; I don't play at conventions. The only reason I'm even posting here is because I feel like the decision to implement the "content allowed 30 days after physical release" is based on an unfair premise in and of itself, and because I disagree with the justification for it. I have no stake in the matter, except hoping that CGL can broaden their audience and sell more digital AND physical books (because that means they'll make more), and I firmly believe that introducing their content to as many people as possible as early as possible is the best way to go about this.
To my mind, physical vs digital doesn't matter. The content is out there; it is up to players to decide if they want to spend their hard earned cash on the product, and using it at conventions should be similarly optional as soon as possible, in my not so humble opinion.
[/rant]
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The reason has to do with the limits a lot of internet providers put on downloads. Those can be surprisingly small; for example, the pdf for the core Shadowrun rulebook is actually around four times the size of the limit imposed by my old internet service.
Er...your download limit was 25mb? When exactly did you have your old internet service?
Here (https://gigaom.com/2012/10/01/data-caps-chart/) is a list of broadband company data caps from less than two years ago, and only one with a cap even offers less than 30 gig. I live in a town of less than 10,000 people in cornfields and beer country in southern Illinois, and I have a 350 gig data cap. Just where and what kind of internet service do you have to have for a 100mb download to be a limiting factor in the year 2014?
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The reason has to do with the limits a lot of internet providers put on downloads. Those can be surprisingly small; for example, the pdf for the core Shadowrun rulebook is actually around four times the size of the limit imposed by my old internet service.
Er...your download limit was 25mb? When exactly did you have your old internet service?
Here (https://gigaom.com/2012/10/01/data-caps-chart/) is a list of broadband company data caps from less than two years ago, and only one with a cap even offers less than 30mb. I live in a town of less than 10,000 people in cornfields and beer country in southern Illinois, and I have a 350 gig data cap. Just where and what kind of internet service do you have to have for a 100mb download to be a limiting factor in the year 2014?
2010, and it was Comcast. Neighbors kept them up until 2012, when Clear really began to hit this area, and confirmed absolutely nothing had been done to raise it. So I can personally say that the info that site has on Comcast is at least partially untrue (it depends on where you live). Both what is now Hughes.net and the celltower-based Clear successfully used Comcast's limit and poor service against it in local marketing campaigns. In fact, Clear didn't even get a chance to start their marketing campaign before they began to need more cell towers constructed.
And I just checked. On Comcast's own site, some of the same service issues I experienced back then are still being complained about (including the water-in-cable issue).
Now, keep in mind the above is what a major telecom pulled. Get into what the minor ones pull. A 25 MB limit is luxurious compared to what some of the small towns face if they don't go satellite. And even when they do go satellite, they still have to face limits, such as this one (http://legal.hughesnet.com/FairAccessPolicyGen4.cfm).
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I've been trying to find out what the lowest data cap on a plan available in the US is purely out of curiosity, but so far I'm failing. I lived so far out in the woods years ago that I had to use satellite myself, and while it was pretty bad, it was nowhere even close to the point of making a 100mb download a problem. Even the HughesNet site's plan with the lowest data cap is enough to download the SR5 pdf over 150 times in one month. I don't want to say that I don't believe what you're saying, but I'm finding it quite difficult to believe that Comcast had you on a plan with a 25mb data cap four years ago without some kind of evidence.
And while I find this stuff kind of interesting in a general sense, I don't believe that the number of people for whom a 100mb download is a barrier to entry is high enough to base decisions off of.
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I've been trying to find out what the lowest data cap on a plan available in the US is purely out of curiosity, but so far I'm failing. I lived so far out in the woods years ago that I had to use satellite myself, and while it was pretty bad, it was nowhere even close to the point of making a 100mb download a problem. Even the HughesNet site's plan with the lowest data cap is enough to download the SR5 pdf over 150 times in one month. I don't want to say that I don't believe what you're saying, but I'm finding it quite difficult to believe that Comcast had you on a plan with a 25mb data cap four years ago without some kind of evidence.
And while I find this stuff kind of interesting in a general sense, I don't believe that the number of people for whom a 100mb download is a barrier to entry is high enough to base decisions off of.
That's because I wasn't on a plan like that. It's one of the many reasons I refuse to ever touch their service again.
As for that 5GB: You're thinking about the data wrong. It's not for just downloads; it's all data that gets sent to your computer while you browse. That even includes loading this webpage to read this post. Take a look at the lovely background image of these forums, note how big it is, then note it gets sent each time you move to a different page. And keep in mind it applies for every single image, such as when you stop by a site like Drivethrurpg or BattleShop to download a pdf. Notice how many images they have? Ever inspect those to see what the data size is for each one? I checked; the first image that loaded for me is 31KB. If each image is the same, then the combined 49 images for just PDFs alone use a combined total of 1.5MB just to visit the site. Note this is not counting anything else about the site; just the images of the PDFs. If you add in the page itself (21KB), the banners (225KB for the logo, around 58 for the advertisement at the bottom, 185KB for the other Drivethru sections, 26 and 25 for the Wargame and RPGNow banners), an additional 8KP per logo (being really generous here), and you've already used 3.5MB just on the front page. In addition, when you click into the Catalyst section, you're guaranteed to use a minimum of 2.9MB. That's already 6.4MB, and we've not even gotten to the Shadowrun page or the download yet. Let's say you only have to deal with 2MB on the next page (assuming you just go directly into the product itself) and use your figure of 100MB for the download... total MB is 108.4MB just to download, assuming you do nothing else that day; that comes out of a total MB per day of 178.6 (5GB divided by 28 days). That leaves you 70.2MB for the day before you start subtracting from tomorrow's portion.
If you want some fun, assign yourself a monthly limit of 5GB and a daily limit of 178.5MB, then keep track of how much you actually use per day without changing your current surfing habits (remember, you have to keep track of how much data every single webpage you visit uses). Remember that if you go over today, you are subtracting from tomorrow. And, for part of the experiment, let's add to the fun: Every time you go over the monthly limit, you must either slap yourself or stop all internet usage (the slap is to represent the fee for going over the limit). After one day, let me know how far over the limit for the day that you went. Then try to calculate for yourself how many days in the month you have at that rate of usage before you have to choose between a slap or no internet usage. Then keep in mind that a download, such as this, is taking up a rather significant portion of how much time you have (most the limit for a single day) and that you will reach that limit even faster if you download this.
I know you don't feel they're significant enough in number; realistically, they're not. But, at the same time, the issue cited was not to discriminate against those who would rather wait for books, many of which are people for whom a PDF option is not realistic due to data caps. Plus, as Michael pointed out, this also potentially discriminates against stores that actually sell those books. Now, if Bull were to decide it's okay to discriminate against those people, then everything I just said on this topic about data caps becomes moot, since it won't actually matter, what Michael said doesn't matter, and we can move on. All I'm doing is pointing out that, for some people, it really is an issue. Even when they have caps that say that it shouldn't be.
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As for that 5GB: You're thinking about the data wrong. It's not for just downloads; it's all data that gets sent to your computer while you browse.
You do know you described downloading, right?
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As for that 5GB: You're thinking about the data wrong. It's not for just downloads; it's all data that gets sent to your computer while you browse.
You do know you described downloading, right?
I know. But, I'm using more common-use definitions for the purposes of this discussion. Most people I meet, when they think of downloads they think of things like PDFs, music videos, data files, or video games; things where you initiate the information transfer. They don't realize that every aspect of the internet is a combination of downloading and uploading.
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Guys, lets keep the bandwidth discussion for another topic, ok? As has already been pointed out, this might have been the case 10 years ago (or 4, if you live in the boondocks, apparently), but it's mostly irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
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Guys, lets keep the bandwidth discussion for another topic, ok? As has already been pointed out, this might have been the case 10 years ago (or 4, if you live in the boondocks, apparently), but it's mostly irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
While I appreciate back-seat moderating as much as the next guy, SlowDeck is making a claim that is directly related to the discussion at hand - that being reasons for further delays on Missions Legality for books that have been released in PDF format. Namely, this...
But, at the same time, the issue cited was not to discriminate against those who would rather wait for books, many of which are people for whom a PDF option is not realistic due to data caps.
As somebody who has literally at no point since I was 5 years old in 1988 not had a personal computer , I am fully away of how data usage works, and I feel that this claim is entirely unfounded.
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I felt moderation was in order because the claim was made, a counter argument was put forth, and that was really all that was needed for someone like Bull to comment back. Drugging the subject out serves little purpose, to my mind.
I do agree with you, though, just for clarity; I've got a 5gb cap on my phone and I rarely get up over 4, but this is a topic for another discussion as far as I'm concerned. Since I brought the subject up, I also reserve the right to say enough is enough, and request that further discussion be taken elsewhere. Entirely up to you what you do with that request, of course...
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Actually, my claim is not that it is a reason why the delay is such, but that it is why it is some people do not use PDFs. The reason why it is that the delay is continued was stated by Bull here:
Karma: Unfortunately, the rule stands. Mainly to keep the playing field level for all players. Many SHadowrun players do not buy PDF books (There's a surprisingly large subsection of players who barely even look at the PDF offerings or even pay attention to release dates and upcoming books. They just pick things up when they show up at their FLGS. Thankfully, this subsection is shrinking, but still). Allowing these products earlier based on the PDF date and not the print street date, especially around convention season when we get the most people playing, is basically telling players that they HAVE to get the PDFs if they want to stay competitive with their fellow players.
I'm all for more PDF sales, but ultimately, this isn't fair to all our players. :(
I was highlighting why it is some people do not buy the PDFs, not clarifying that it is a reason why the current policy must continue. And while you do feel it is unfounded, I know a number of people who have stated that exact reason as to why they don't. And one of them is in my face-to-face group, so this isn't something that stopped four years ago. Thus, the point of the experiment I posted was to show the mentality of the people that are saying that; they're literally counting every single megabyte and budgeting their internet usage on a level that most people don't even do with their personal finances.
So, Martin is right in saying it's not actually directly related; it's more of a reply to a claim I know to be unfounded in relation to a call to change the policy. And it's not to challenge what Martin said, either.
In any case, the request was made and is reasonable. I'm abiding by it. After all, if I need to win an internet argument that badly, then I need to put the computer away and go outside :P I hope they finally did something about that vile daystar...
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Well, keep in mind, 30 days from Street Date is CGL's street date, and that applies globally. It doesn't matter when the print book will be available in Germany, or Australia, or Japan, or Latveria. Once that 30 days pings, it's a go for everyone. So that means the PDFs are then valid.
There are a number of reasons we do this. Fairness is the aspect that applies to you guys. But it also gives us plenty of time (in theory) to review the book and see if there's anything that we need to tweak or flag for Missions. Plus with Print products, sometimes (Not always, not nearly as often as I'd like, but sometimes) we can actually make errata changes between the PDF release and the book hitting the Printers. So this way we know we're working from the same source as well.
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My concern wasn't the format, really.
It's the delay.
It would be one thing if the street date was published, but Run & Gun dropped two months ago and Catalyst has STILL yet to publish a print edition street date, or even a ballpark figure.
What happens if this becomes endemic? We've seen significant production delays from Catalyst before. How long after the PDF release is it reasonable to make folks who bought and paid for the digital version wait?
I'm not even saying two months is necessarily excessive, but there has to eventually be a point where one has to say, "You know, this is too much".
-k
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On the other hand this also gives Missions players time to save up nuyen and karma for buying the new stuff. Plus they can still use all of the material in home-games. Now that R&G is out in PDF my own campaign is switching to SR5.
I agree that the lack of a street date is unsettling, and I hope it won't happen with the other books, but I prefer fairness to those that want the physical books and not something electronic. Forcing them to get the PDFs to have the same abilities as their fellow players sounds rather unfair. Not to mention rules. "Wait, you can run from grenades now?"
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It would be one thing if the street date was published, but Run & Gun dropped two months ago and Catalyst has STILL yet to publish a print edition street date, or even a ballpark figure.
This is SOP. It has been SOP for a number of years, it's not something we plan on addressing internally. Until we have the street date in hand we are not going to speculate on what that date is going to be.
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It would be one thing if the street date was published, but Run & Gun dropped two months ago and Catalyst has STILL yet to publish a print edition street date, or even a ballpark figure.
This is SOP. It has been SOP for a number of years, it's not something we plan on addressing internally. Until we have the street date in hand we are not going to speculate on what that date is going to be.
Can I just say how much some of us appreciate this? The lack of getting hopes up before the street date is set in stone actually makes Catalyst one of the most reliable companies on their street dates.
That said, the delay on book releases does indicate a problem, but this looks like a problem being caused by the printer or distributor. After all, everyone who has a copy of the PDF knows Catalyst did their end of the work.
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Can I just say how much some of us appreciate this? The lack of getting hopes up before the street date is set in stone actually makes Catalyst one of the most reliable companies on their street dates.
We heard a lot of complaints from FLGS owners and buyers, which is why the policy was enacted. Truth be told, I hated the idea at first. But once I saw the impact of it, I was happy we went this route.
That said, the delay on book releases does indicate a problem, but this looks like a problem being caused by the printer or distributor. After all, everyone who has a copy of the PDF knows Catalyst did their end of the work.
I'm not sure where Run & Gun is getting printed. At the end of the day we're still a company that has small print run orders, we don't get a lot of priority. Also, if the books are being printed in the Far East...well...that boat from China isn't called a slow boat out of irony.
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I'm all for more PDF sales, but ultimately, this isn't fair to all our players. :(
Well the way your doing it now isn't makes me feel like it's not fair to pdf users. Some of us will have to wait three months or more for content we paid for to become legal. So if you're going for fair, I don't think you hit that mark. In fact it feels to me that you're treating people who buy the pdf's as less then equals when it comes to sales.
It makes me feel like my pdf purchases aren't valued by the company. Which means I will most likely not continue to purchase Shadowrun products.
I understand your reasoning, but I disagree 100% and the only way for me as a consumer to make my feelings known is to tell you and to stop buying the companies product until things change.
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Below is a work-in-progress list and not official or any such thing:
Allowed Books/PDFs
ShadowRun 5th Edition Main Rulebook
Assassin's Primer
Gun H(e)aven 3
Sail Away Sweet Sister
Disallowed Books/PDFs
Run & Gun
Stolen Souls
Bullets and Bandages
I'd like to see something like this on an official Shadowrun Missions webpage, with the following information for each book:
* Date of PDF release
* Date of physical book release (TBD - To Be Determined is an acceptable answer)
* Date legal for Shadowrun Missions (Not Legal is an acceptable answer)
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Something like that has been suggested, but frankly, I wouldn't expect to see anything some time after Gen Con, if it does come to pass.
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The biggest problem we have right now is that we don't have a Website guy. It's done by Matt and Randall (I think) in their oh-so-copious free time. (Randall is the general manager for all the game lines, and is handling Battletech while they're between developers at the moment, and Matt does all the Shadowrun Layout, plus other layout. so they're both already crazy-busy). It's something we're aware of, but professional web designers aren't cheap, and it's just something that upper management hasn't decided on. We all know it's an issue though, and we want to find a good way to fix it. We're just not there yet, and it sucks.
For as cool and as big and awesome as Shadowrun and Battletech are, ultimately CGL is a small company that is not rolling in profits, so it's always a decision as to where money gets spent... Is the website more important than, say, a new Battletech or Shadowrun book?
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For what it's worth, Bull, and this is my opinion only, I wouldn't mind waiting longer for new books if the tradeoff is clearer lines of communication.
The wait doesn't bother me (much, beck, I had A Dance of Dragons on pre-order for 2 years, 3 months, and 1 day before it shipped) as much as the lack of information. I fully appreciate that books are your business, and you all clearly love your work (it shows, by the way; keep up the great work!), so please take this for the encouragement that it was meant to be.
Cheers, guys.
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Well, for my part I plan to try and do more updating of things. I like the idea of a running "Sticky" here to list books that are legal. I also need to dive back into the FAQ and make sure we have that updated some more, keep it more of a Living FAQ than it's been in the past.
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As a Shadowrun GM, I don't always get the materials as quickly as some players. Without a 30 day window to acquire and learn the new material, I may not be an effective Missions GM for all the new rules, tools and toys. ;-)
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Honestly, I wasn't expecting a major change.
I was just hoping there would be a maximum time PDF purchasers would have to wait if print street dates got severely delayed.
Something like "30 days after street date, or 90 days after PDF release, whichever comes first".
But really the best solution is if there aren't too many delays, yah?
-k
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Agreed. Unfortunately, that's out of my hands. :(
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Agreed. Unfortunately, that's out of my hands. :(
But...but....but....Bull, you are who I burn 3.5 PHBs to to make my rolls better!
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So anyway, one of the things I will consider doing, on a case by case basis in the future, is allowing products to "Cheat" the Missions Legal date a little for major conventions. However, a book needs to have been publicly available for at least a couple weeks before the convention in it's final format (i.e., in print and in stores for print books, PDF for ebook only releases).
I'm going to be allowing Stolen Souls at Gen Con, for example, because it streets July 30th. These are exceptions to the rule though, and will only be allowed on a case by case basis for larger conventions.
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So how many blood rituals do we need to perform for Street Grimoire @ gencon?
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So how many blood rituals do we need to perform for Street Grimoire @ gencon?
I'd chalk it up as a solid "maybe", which means the book won't be Missions-legal for the Con.
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So how many blood rituals do we need to perform for Street Grimoire @ gencon?
Jasons hoping to have copies at the con (But as Peter notes, it's a "maybe" that they'll be there), It won't be legal yet. Sorry :(
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Jasons hoping to have copies at the con (But as Peter notes, it's a "maybe" that they'll be there), It won't be legal yet. Sorry :(
It's okay - the stuff in Street Grimoire is going to require a lot of saved Karma to purchase. I'm looking at 40 Karma for The Warrior's Way (which will make Combat Sense cheaper), plus 19 Karma for my third initiation to get Domain of the Warrior (to reduce Background Count penalties). :)
EDIT: Adjusted the Warrior's Way cost from 20 to 40 (buying Qualities is at x2). Ouch.
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Yeah, those Ways are going to be "way" expensive. :)
I really need to read through everything in detail, but I like the spells and abilities I saw as I scanned through the PDF.
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So how many blood rituals do we need to perform for Street Grimoire @ gencon?
Jasons hoping to have copies at the con (But as Peter notes, it's a "maybe" that they'll be there), It won't be legal yet. Sorry :(
Right blood rituals it is, moving forward with extraction of Bull.
Long as I'm here and it semi-related. Static Shaft Crossbow Bolts yay or nay? Cost?