Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: elrikthebastard on <06-08-14/0013:00>
-
Evening Everyone,
So just came back from a meet up with one of my more... ummmm... Munckin players.
Shadowrun Ver: 5e. I want to start at Street Level.
He wants to play an Elf Technomancer (Crashed his points right there).
The Background is the Characters Family wanted him to be a Mage, when he was about 12 they implanted Cerebral Booster (L2) and Mnemonic Enhancer (L2).
Now this is a Family that loves their Mages. And they killed one point of magic off the get go. Instead he never "awakens". So now he is a Technomancer, with Bioware in his head, so he is still gutted one point of Resonance. He also wants to use Flux as his "Totem" (wrong word). I don't have the book he is using, but he is willing to let me have a look but he had to go to work...
If I give him the two bits of bioware he wants that is 98400 yen, and 64 karma over, going by the Hero Labs editor. Every other players is right on the money with their PC's. Many will have to buy things as they play, opting to hide in the sleazier parts till they can afford Fake SINs and the like.
So I am sitting here decrypting his conversation with me. He always plays with an angle. And this one I am unsure of. Can anyone help me here?
As always thanks!
ETB
-
Well just glancing over this, if everyone else is running right to the dime on the character creation I don't think Snowflake has any right to be given special accords. Doubly so if they always try to game the system, plays the angles as you say it.
-
Tell the guy "No, make a character using the character creation rules."
You don't have to put up with players exploiting you. As the GM, you are the only person at the table doing work, and players that give you headaches are an unnecessary and unwarranted burden on you, which makes the game worse for everyone else. I would give him a talking to about playing nice with the system, and not invite him back if he continues that kind of behavior.
-
Thanks for getting back to me Gents.
My wife pretty much said the same thing.
I don't mind tweaking a bit to give the starting character some flavour but I agree, this is too much.
I think your right.
E
-
Id normally prefer the streetscum rules on page 354 instead of street levele play. As street level play only punishes non-awakened/emerged. But if your group is almost finished with character generation it might be too late to shift over.
While Im all for bending the rules a bit to better fit the concept of player characters, gaining free stuff for 90k+ in a campaing where priority A is a measly 75k is crazy.
That would be like giving a player for ½ a million nuyen stuff in a regular game, just because it "fits his concept".
if he really REALLY thinks its essential for his character, play by streetscum rules, then its actually possible for him (if he is a powergaming munchkin he will likely refuse, so be adamant about it :) ) In streetscum you have B,C,D,E,E as priorites or C,C,D,D,E so while its possible to be an elf technomancer with bioware, its gonna put a big limit on his powergaming, just remind him its part of his "concept".
If you and the other players (not the technomancer guy) find the streetscum rules too restrictive, you could always come up with an alternative priority list, like: B;C,C,D,E or something
mentors for technomancers are called paragorns
-
Paragons! Thank you!
Thanks Digitalzombie, I did read the Street Scum rules, but figured I am pushing this group pretty hard. There is a bit of drama to this gaggle of fellows. They have a bad habit of making ridiculous characters. I joined about 4 months ago and have been doing some push back, I like to follow some of the rules at least. I am certain they have an entire 64 volume set of encyclopedias to their House Rules, just for Rifts. This is how they play. I am a bloody fusion bomb in the middle of their Gaming Paradigm.
The stories of their Shadowrun games left me confused. Ad give me a headache.
Thanks again!
-
WHOO, better be more careful, my players are on the forum =-)
-
I can't wait to play this game! Simple baseline characters with a decent background. I think we'll find a way to break the chains of munchkinism...I hope. Ever since I started playing SR1, it has always been my favorite game. Seeing them bring back the priority system made me very pleased. Limits, even more so.
I'm looking forward to this game, and 'role-playing' my character the way it was meant to be. I hate 'roll-play' quite bit...probably why I'm only recently coming back into the RPG table-top sphere of gaming (after a 2 year hiatus). I'll do what I can to help, Elrik, as you know. We'll get it sorted, just make him make a new char (if you're reading this, love ya buddy, but sorry, dude - let's just play). Mine's pretty much done, and looks good, with obvious strengths and (maybe :-X ) glaring weaknesses. I stuck to the rules; one rule book makes it simple (SR5). Let's keep it to that. After all, this is your game: Therefore, your rules.
-
WHOO, better be more careful, my players are on the forum =-)
I won't tell if you won't tell... ;)
-
RE: Flux
No way in hell does Flux come into SR5 with the same benefit he offered in SR4 (the implications of a flat Threading bonus are very different now) - if your player wants that benefit, the correct response is "hell no". Optionally, you may wish to employ a metropolitan area phonebook as well.
More generally, what the guy is asking for are not simple flavour adjustments; he is attempting to reap extreme mechanical benefit and get for more resources at his disposal than the other players have. Allowing this would be a very poor choice.
-
Hey there Elrik. I'd say that there's nothing mechanically wrong with this character, but the story needs a little work. First off, a family with a long line of mages would NEVER implant anything into their child unless they knew he/she wasn't ever going to become a mage. So that aspect of the background just doesn't make sense. If your player is willing to justify his mechanical choices with storyline, I'd say let him have at it.
-
Thanks guys for taking the time!
RHat: Do you feel Paragons are over powered to begin with? Or just the power difference from 4 to 5?
Namikaze: I requested a new story line, and basically I am getting the, "Just want to see what you will allow." I have given my other players are very hard time on their builds and in the end the power difference between would be to drastic. The players are scraping to get gear they need and then a good portion of the important things they need they will have to develop in game, which I honestly love! Other then money this Technomancer with a bit of bioware and the bonuses to his skills would have been impressive. He would have had to make up for the missing point, but still.
Thanks again guys.
-
I don't see a problem with porting over Flow (there is no Flux Paragon); for 5 BP (which would be 10 karma) you get a flat +2 modifier to your Threading dice pool, and a +1 modifier to your Compile dice pool to compile Code OR Data sprites.
01 grants a +1 dice pool modifier to ALL compiling AND registering tests; Alias grants +2 to Spoof tests, +1 to Crack or Sleuth sprites; Archivist +2 to all Browse (probably replace with Matrix Search), and +1 to Code or Data sprites); and so on and so forth.
That being said, as a GM I'd want to sit down and review all the Paragons and rework them for SR5, before allowing them at all. Speaking of which, has this been done by anyone?
-
RHat: Do you feel Paragons are over powered to begin with? Or just the power difference from 4 to 5?
I wouldn't say they're overpowered - for the most part, SR4's paragons have drawbacks that are lax enough allow them to be positive for the character but still strong enough to balance things out. However, Flow (I equated Flow and Flux in my head) wouldn't in SR5, because Threading in SR5 is not the same as Threading in SR4. In SR4, the Matrix worked on Skill+Program, and Threading allowed you to increase (or create) Program Ratings or gain Program Options on the fly. It was a powerful tool, but you still had a seperate dice roll to actually do anything. On average, Flow only actually gave about +0.67 dice to whatever you were actually trying to do; this was just fine, because the disadvantage was actually negligible - a 2 die penalty to an action that no technomancer ever wants to be taking anyways.
More simply: They were balanced, but under a completely different structure. Because of the change in structure, they generally need to be rewritten altogether, and the specific case that your player appears to be referring to would be completely out of line - the equivalent to +2 to all Spellcasting for a mentor spirit with a negiligible drawback.
-
Except a Technomancer won't be using complex forms for everything he needs to do; he simply can't, because there are several actions that have no Complex Form equivalent.
A more appropriate analogy, to my mind, would be that of a mage gaining a +2 bonus to a certain school of spells, for example.
01 gives a +1 to all compiling and registering rolls, which would be the equivalent of a mage getting a +1 to all summoning and binding rolls.
In short, then, some paragons translate well, others don't. I'd ask the player to come up with a good backstory, and then I'd work with the player to come up with a solution that provides a benefit without being unbalanced.
Again, I don't personally see Flow as overpowered, but I'd want to make sure that the full effects of my actions were clear to me before allowing it.
-
Thanks guys,
I have finally read the Technomancer details a bit more clearly (Not drunk and late at night) and I see why he wanted the bioware to up his Logic and Memory.
I am way behind the rules so playing catchup. I appreciate your help in this.
-
Yeah, the bioware is really helpful. Unfortunately, the story just needs work. I think a response of "just willing to see what you'll allow" is kind of ... worrisome. A player that is pushing boundaries simply for the sake of pushing them might become troublesome later.
-
Hey Namikaze
Yup, I am getting to him. He was more snide then usual at our Sunday Game and challenged my Game Idea at a local grocery store. He just about jumped out of his seat at me when I dared challenge his idea of how a Technomancer connected to external data devices.
Do they discuss the Technomancers Aura in the game at all? Do we just presume it is normal... can't see why it would be normal, but that is just me.
The original story so far in summery... (the one I have veto'ed)
Raised in a Rich Tir Family. Family only loved their Mages. He never awoke but he has an uncanny talent for tech and hung out with the House Security Rigger and Decker. As he got older and did not "Awaken" his Family became less interested in him. There was muck and muck here and there. Eventually he steals some of the Family money and has some Bioware installed (SynapticL3/MnemonicL3) then ran away. Eventually he ends up with the wrong crowd, gets caught in some botched robbery and gets Criminal SIN. While in prison he awakens to his Technomancer, and with the help of a Spirit Mentor he gets some help and protection. At this point he is on the street.
Most of the story I didn't have issue with, but the Bioware was a no go. That is pretty much when he started to get angry at me. Obviously I have found his buttons, and have sharpened my nails.
I already have a huge issue with his gaming methodology. I don't think it is going to get better. But I am going to start having fun instead of getting angry at him. It's crazy, he has cased to much damage, that people will not even talk about it. I have only seen that a few times in my long life.
Sorry to rant.
Thanks
E
-
If you're using standard character generation rules, he can't get Synaptic Boosters OR Mnemonic Enhancer at Rating 3, as both have an availability greater than 12 (3*5=15 and 3*6=18R, respectively).
It's not a problem cash-wise, as it's "only" 27k + 285k, respectively. However, if he's a technomancer he's severely limiting himself in some other fashion as Resources generally ends up fairly low down on a Technomancers priorities list due to other more important aspects (Attributes, Skills, Metatype (if he wants any Edge), and, most importantly Resonance, are all "more" important than cash for most players).
I'd challenge him to post his build here on the forum if he's active, or for you to do so if you're comfortable doing it. That way we can provide a critique of the character concept and how it relates to mechanics rather than the player (though my impression of both is not good right now).
PS:
Don't worry about ranting; that's what we're here for! :D
-
When I get the character I will ask Matinchaen. =-)
-
Do they discuss the Technomancers Aura in the game at all? Do we just presume it is normal... can't see why it would be normal, but that is just me.
A technomancer can be assensed with 5 successes on the assensing test.
The original story so far in summery... (the one I have veto'ed)
Raised in a Rich Tir Family. Family only loved their Mages. He never awoke but he has an uncanny talent for tech and hung out with the House Security Rigger and Decker. As he got older and did not "Awaken" his Family became less interested in him. There was muck and muck here and there. Eventually he steals some of the Family money and has some Bioware installed (SynapticL3/MnemonicL3) then ran away. Eventually he ends up with the wrong crowd, gets caught in some botched robbery and gets Criminal SIN. While in prison he awakens to his Technomancer, and with the help of a Spirit Mentor he gets some help and protection. At this point he is on the street.
That story is okay up to a point. That point is where he steals family money and buys a bunch of bioware. Sure, he buys it and installs it prior to his emergence, but it just sounds like justification for munchkin behavior. If you wanted to let it in, though, you could just have his family hunt him down for the money he stole. Since they're rich, they can possibly even send some Tir Paladins (or ex-Paladins, more likely) after him. That should teach him a thing or two.
Sorry to rant.
Ranting is part of the reason for the GM lounge section of the boards. :)
-
I generally don't like to weigh in on races in which I don't have a dog entered, but this is something special. Don't give an inch to this guy, you do and he will likely challenge your authority any and every time you GM and have to make a call. Which not only can ruin your experience, but the entire tables, real quick.
Everyone else plays by the rules (of chargen), why can't/shouldn't he? He can have any cobbled together, nonsensical story he wants IF it fits within the not at all restrictive confines of the chargen mechanics. No free ware, no houseruled paragon (unless you make/clear it), there's no reason at all why he can't do this story using the actual rules other than (it sounds like) he's a selfish twat that wants to get some stuff for free and to prove to himself he's the best.
Sorry, osyran, it sounds like you know this guy, maybe he's your friend? Tell your friend he's being a twat.
Stories like these that make me sooo grateful to have the group I do. Biggest trouble we've ever had is disagreements over using the High Fantasy point buy instead of Epic.
-
Thanks for coming over Emsquared.
There is a swatch of damage this individual has caused and I am just getting into it. Osyran has had to deal with the player longer then I have, and as much as I like him, the Munckin in question is a RPG menace. A fair bit of me is speaking in frustration. This player has single handedly destroyed two groups in his tenure as Munchkin. Osyran tries very hard to not speak badly of people, but you can see the stress when he smokes =-)
-
Just a heads up, but are you sure he's not asking for a Cerebral Booster and a Mnemonic Enhancer? Synaptic Booster is the reaction enhancer/initiative booster (and is also .5 Essence per level, which is pure murder on the Magic/Resonance for those who care about that sort of thing). Cerebral Booster [3] and Mnemonic Enhancer [3], conversely, would give him a +3 to Logic and +3 dice on memory related tests (which he would no doubt insist was pretty much everything), while still sneaking in at 0.9 Essence.
Either way, though, the answer is to just say "No, you don't get free stuff for cooking up a backstory. A backstory is how you justify to yourself and the GM to have the stuff you pay for, like normal, during character generation. Yes, your Tir-centric backstory is fine for justifying the purchase of some Bioware. But if you want to buy the Bioware, you follow the rules for buying Bioware, assign the right Resources, and stick within the Availability limits of the campaign." He can buy them at up to rating 2 like everyone else (limited by Avail), and he can figure out how to shuffle points and pony up the cash for them like everyone else, too.
Also, I would explain to him that Paragons don't really exist in 5E yet, so if he wants to he can squat on some karma until they come out (but that no, he can't just neatly port over one from 4E to 5E).
And shame on him for trying to use the Tir to weasel into this many free points.
-
Critias, he did ask for the Cerebral Boost and I said no. LOL
Predictable is predictable.
Thanks!
-
Eh..I could see Cerebral Booster on a Technomancer. It is actually a fairly good choice if they
are able to squeeze the funds out.
No, the problem is the guy bad mouthing your game concept at a grocery store? Coming close
to jumping across the table because you, as the GM, who has the job to set the consistent world
view, disagreed with him on how something worked? Is trying to bully you into porting something
over from the previous edition that doesn't even work with the current edition? Sorry..but, there is
a point where you might want to politely ask the group: "Do we really need this guy?"
-
I've come to that point with two players in the past. One of them was asked politely to simply stop playing with us. He agreed, since he realized that we were just disagreeing too much. We're still friends, but we don't game together anymore (much to our communal loss, as he's actually quite a good player when he's not being a munchkin). The second player has been talked with, and it was determined his problem stems from some old groups that didn't take the game very seriously, and only played Shadowrun as an in-between game while waiting for something more Pathfinder-y to happen. The second player has been making large strides in realizing the effect he has on the game is much greater than he realized, and he's starting to become a very valuable player and the rest of the group is really helping to pull him along. Still, we're not averse to finding a replacement for him.
My point is that the best way to handle this is to sit him/her down face-to-face and just talk it out. If this person is even remotely mature, he/she'll either toe the line or get out of the way. If they can't do that, then kick them out. Don't be afraid to say it just like that. "I'm sorry, but you are disruptive to the group and I will not run a game while you are acting this way." Stand your ground, like a parent with an angry toddler, and you'll come away looking like the better man, hopefully earning the respect and admiration of the rest of your group while also putting this troublemaker in his/her place.
-
Critias, he did ask for the Cerebral Boost and I said no. LOL
Predictable is predictable.
Thanks!
It went from Cerebral to Synaptic in a post upthread, I was just trying to keep track. :)
But yeah...this is totally a player expectation/communication issue (as is so often the case in gaming, for whatever reasons). You need to just have a talk with him about campaign goals and expectations, explain that no one else is getting to bust the character generation rules wide open for funsies, tell him you're glad he's got a backstory and is engaged with the character but that a backstory isn't there to let you start leaps and bounds ahead of other characters, blah blah blah all that sort of thing.
-
@Mara
You are correct. And I don't think we need this guy. He has agitated osyran enough to drop his remaining few game sessions in favour of me tormenting the Munchkin. osyran your a Jerk!
@Namikaze
As far as I am concerned this is his last chance at my table. This coming Sunday is the discuss the view of the game, make the final characters, review said characters and basically set my Authority. I am all about hearing the issue with a rule, but the moment you freak out at the table I am done, and the player can leave. My Issue is I am gaming at Osyran's place. So I need his help.
@Critias
I ran a youth RPG club and have three kids. I have a plan of action =-)
Thank you everyone!!
-
...You are correct. And I don't think we need this guy. He has agitated osyran enough to drop his remaining few game sessions in favour of me tormenting the Munchkin. osyran your a Jerk!
Yeah, I know...um...sorry? ::)
...My Issue is I am gaming at Osyran's place. So I need his help...
We'll addendum the table rules contract we posted when we started and sign it in blood. ;)
I stopped the last game when I realized that his character WILL result in the deaths of the remaining party members and he'd walk free. I couldn't challenge him even if I tried. Game is over now, so I'm glad to get back to the basics. Shadowrun is my favorite game, and I was so inexperienced as a gamemaster I was unable to deal with that; short of using GM ability to kill the entire cosmos, that is. I had a 2 year sabbatical, since players left the last game pissed at the ADHD kid that was in the group at the time (few people know how to deal with that, so they ran - one of which I will personally beat to an inch of his life if he every comes to my home because of how he treated that kid). That kid (adult now) is back and medicated (mostly), and is actually a pleasant player (most of the time) to have in the group, so I will always invite him. He too, knows the rules, but doesn't know the games enough to become a 'problem' player (character).
We are all friends, so I hope we can get this down to a playable and fun game. I agree that a back story shouldn't provide more than we have been given (following character creation rules to the letter). If anything, he could have had it, then it was stripped from him (no essence gained back) while he was in prison as the price for stealing from pappy...
-
If anything, he could have had it, then it was stripped from him (no essence gained back) while he was in prison as the price for stealing from pappy...
OUCH! That's brutal - I like it. :)
-
Yea, for whaterver Mr Munckin thinks he has, he is on his own. And I have set a timer on him. I have a calendar that reports to me what day it is in the Game Universe, then on what days I have to roll for the PI to find something or nothing. Then I have A corp looking for him, his family is looking for him. After a period competing corps will start to look for him, then the regular runners in the know will eventually clue in.
He has all the room he wants. My timer starts running the first minute we start to game.
I will let this fester and grow and eventually he will have to figure out his corner, because the paint is wet.
-
Hey,
Thought I would do an update. Mr. Munchkin is no longer getting what he wanted and is making a street level sam with a military past.
No bonuses, same as everyone else. And it was easier to do then I thought.
Hilarious!
Thank you again everyone!
E
-
Hey,
Thought I would do an update. Mr. Munchkin is no longer getting what he wanted and is making a street level sam with a military past.
No bonuses, same as everyone else. And it was easier to do then I thought.
Hilarious!
Thank you again everyone!
E
That's awesome. Take the small blessings where you can get them with someone like this. :)
-
LOL Thanks!
Right now his angry at me because sometimes Delta and Betaware come with strings... LOL
Like talking to my kids when they were 4.
-
Unless you're playing a VERY high-level campaign, he can't acquire Deltaware at character creation anyway. Is he now trying to finagle the rules without the technomancer aspect? I suggest making him read the rules. :P
-
He is certainly Delta ware obsessed. I told him IN GAME. Don't bother me any other way.
Then I asked him if he trusted the companies putting in the tech? Because Corps are so trustworthy. =-)
-
Sounds like the player wants to take part in a High Life & Prime Runner rules game. Also sounds like you're giving them enough rope to hang themselves, and assuming the length will be enough to inform of the consequences.
-
If I may.
I met these guys through Rifts. We made L10 Characters. My PC was a Godling, 805 MDC, tonnes of spells, magic and psi powers, the character was utterly bogus. Mr. Munchkins PC was so over the top that it made my nose bleed. I have been playing Palladium since it came out, I have not played rifts in some time. But I know the rules, and I built my PC to the rules and I was happy with the build. Mr. Munchkin utterly ignores the rules and then demands a page when challenges. Well I discovered he was Stacking his Three Classes, which is totally against the rules. I show him rules and he works at ways to work around them, there is no work around... so he ignores them.
He has asked me three times for more stuff and I have said no each time. So get this. He have up on his Technomancer because he originally built his character with the Standard system. Then asked me about Karma, because apparently I was vague, then when I confront him about it he bitches that I screwed up his Stat Increase. "Sorry Dood, you only get 13, with a potential of 26."
Then I reminded him that he yelled at me in the middle of a Grocery store about only getting 13 karma.
The tone changed pretty fast. I deal with clients all day, what people say to me sticks fast and for a long time. I wish the rules stayed as long and firm.
Killer!
he could not use the Standard rules. Then Reminded him that he yelled at me in a Grocery store about only giving him 13 points
-
Gods..this guy sounds like someone who is no longer in my group. You would not happen to be in the Florida panhandle,
would you, Elrik?
-
Northern Ontario Canada Mara =-)
-
If his "behavior" continues into play, keep in mind you DO NOT owe him a page reference for anything ever. As the GM it is your responsibility to keep the game fun and on track, that's about it, playing by the rules is nice when you can but if you have to make something up to keep things moving or to keep the fun going - that's what you do.
-
If his "behavior" continues into play, keep in mind you DO NOT owe him a page reference for anything ever. As the GM it is your responsibility to keep the game fun and on track, that's about it, playing by the rules is nice when you can but if you have to make something up to keep things moving or to keep the fun going - that's what you do.
I think that is a horrible statement. Yes, the GM is the final say, but both the players and the GM have to work in the same world. They have to be playing by the same set of rules that govern said world. It is one thing to be working with houserules or even invoking fiat, but if the GM is going to say that a specific aspect of the world officially operates in a certain way they should be able to not only back that up, but be able to tell or show the player where that ruling comes from so that the player can further educate themselves.
The rules govern the world, and the world is what makes it ShadowRun. I don't think I could stay in a game where the GM feels using the rules is "nice when you can."
-
I mostly agree Emsquared. I confronted him. Basically warned him that I would do my best to follow the rules but there would be times that I would throw them out the window. I am story driven and sometimes suspend the rules. "I don't like surprises." he states very unsure. MWAHAHAHAA
I guess in Mr. Munchkins mind I should provide a plot summery? This crap makes me laugh.
The last week has been brutal. I have a webserver that is down, the admin smokes my control panel before doing any backups, so I am down 6 websites, that I have dated backups for... and we had been paying for the backups to happen. Then my Internet goes, and I live on the net. Bluntly stated, this guys makes me laugh so hard somedays, I just feel better.
I did not know till late last night that one of my other buddies, who I have brainwashed and trained... ehehe.... had warned Mr. Munchkin that I have a bad habit of just grabbing character sheets and then handing the Player a new character to play for a while.
My buddy loves that sort of play. Honestly his is not the the best in Role player but he tries damn hard and doesn't mind being laughed at and failing.
Coming out of the 80's there was this thing in Dragon Mag, 20 things to drive your players nuts. I had a blast, although my stories became pretty fractures, the players loved the challenge those that did not, got asked to leave by team. I had almost forgot till Buddy reminded me about that.
-
Hey Tenlaar, thanks for posting.
If I may, I don't think that is what emsquared means. When the system is bogged down, push it aside and move on.
The idea is to stick to the rules as best as possible, if your story is the problem, streamline it, if there is a rule, come to some sort of decision, and move on. Many GM's and players get bogged down in a debate over something and the next thing you know hours has passed.
Our Job is to keep the flow and sometimes, hopefully not very often, that means skipping a rule. But yes, wholesale slaughter of the rules is bad form.
-
I think that is a horrible statement. Yes, the GM is the final say, but both the players and the GM have to work in the same world. They have to be playing by the same set of rules that govern said world. It is one thing to be working with houserules or even invoking fiat, but if the GM is going to say that a specific aspect of the world officially operates in a certain way they should be able to not only back that up, but be able to tell or show the player where that ruling comes from so that the player can further educate themselves.
The rules govern the world, and the world is what makes it ShadowRun. I don't think I could stay in a game where the GM feels using the rules is "nice when you can."
My guess is you're not a GM. What's horrible is when you're a new GM, the group is in the middle of an exciting battle and your sammy fires a grenade down a hall. You're not up on your scatter or chunky salsa rules so you say "I'm not gonna worry about it right now." but the player whines and wants you to look it up, which you know will bog things down, and all he's doing is hoping it will get him a few more boxes of damage. Or a car chase breaks out, and knowing that those rules are a ridiculous mess (at least in 4E) and you haven't once looked at them, you wing it and the player says "No no no no, I know that's not how it works" (but they can't tell you how it works either). Circumstances like that, all the other players can do is roll their eyes and pick up their phones. That's horrible.
I never said GM doesn't play by the same rules he improvs on the players. You 100% projected that onto my statement. And sorry rules don't govern the world, the GM does. Absolutely the rules are a great guide for the GM the majority of the time, but if the rules get in the way of the story, sorry but the rules gotta take a back seat. And the rules governing the world do not make Shadowrun, not even the Meta-plot makes Shadowrun, the dudes/dudettes sitting around the table do.
Consistency is important, but if the players understand you don't know how something works at that time, but you'll look it up and "do it right" once you've had a chance to get a grasp on it, what's the harm? Honestly, please answer that question. Even if you change it down the road, what exactly has been lost (and how was it worth more than the time gained at the table actually doing things)?
-
The misconception here is that the GM is playing.
Being a GM is work. You're the guy at the table responsible for everyone else's amusement. It's up to you to grok the rules, the setting, to make the world seem real, to make sure everyone gets the spotlight, etc. It's a big juggling act, and it is hard work, though it is rewarding (when your players aren't being PITAs).
That means give your GM a break. If you are playing in my game, I want you to know how all the stuff on your character sheet works. If I don't know how grenade scatter happens, and you can't give me a legit sounding answer, then it does whatever I come up with on the fly.
-
The misconception here is that the GM is playing.
Being a GM is work. You're the guy at the table responsible for everyone else's amusement. It's up to you to grok the rules, the setting, to make the world seem real, to make sure everyone gets the spotlight, etc. It's a big juggling act, and it is hard work, though it is rewarding (when your players aren't being PITAs).
That means give your GM a break. If you are playing in my game, I want you to know how all the stuff on your character sheet works. If I don't know how grenade scatter happens, and you can't give me a legit sounding answer, then it does whatever I come up with on the fly.
This. 100% this. In my current game, this is the first time I have been a player in a very long time. My GM is still getting used to SR5,
as is most of my group. I am ending up, frequently, being the person who is being used as a rules looker-up person, especially
for stuff we haven't done before(because, my experience GMing and playing often means I can look something up FASTER then
the GM once the rule books come out.) i kind of hate this, BTW...I want to be able to just sit back and play..
-
I agree!
-
Just thought I would give an update.
Mr. Munchkin and I have had a few conversations. He was having a very hard time making his character fit in the narrow field I had presented and I think he is a tad OCD.
At first I think it caused him physical pain to even think about it, but once he started, and we started to talk histories, and trying to get the party to work together, he started to have fun.
He has spend years building characters in secret... warning klaxons... and we all did it at the same table. We talked for 5 hours and it felt like 45 minutes had passed. He had a blast. I know it will not be perfect every day and I told him that, but I hope he is coming around. Time will tell.
Thanks for all the input guys!
-
That sounds extremely encouraging, elrik!
-
Thanks for helping out Namikaze.
And thanks to everyone else. I don't know were I would be without input from others.
-
Just thought I would give an update.
Mr. Munchkin and I have had a few conversations. He was having a very hard time making his character fit in the narrow field I had presented and I think he is a tad OCD.
At first I think it caused him physical pain to even think about it, but once he started, and we started to talk histories, and trying to get the party to work together, he started to have fun.
He has spend years building characters in secret... warning klaxons... and we all did it at the same table. We talked for 5 hours and it felt like 45 minutes had passed. He had a blast. I know it will not be perfect every day and I told him that, but I hope he is coming around. Time will tell.
Thanks for all the input guys!
Are you sure you didn't break him? It was weird, like a completely different person. I'm looking forward to our games, and am fortunate we are all friends to start (and for a long long while). Makes it easier to just talk and reach consensus without killing each other, IRL. After all, it's a game for friends of like mind. Peace!
-
I have to say I did push pretty hard. And all those manipulations you learn at Anger Management Training, then Management Training, then raising kids, dealing with an ex-wife, and a life of hedonism and debauchery. It all came into play.
My wife says to wait for the other boot to fall. I also promised him I would not focused on the overpowering bad guys.
We talked again last night, and I reiterated that not every game would go his way, or your way. He seems to have a plan of action.
It could be that I also said, "Why are you asking me this, what do you get out of it." and "You don't try to take a skill/group/talent/thing without a reason." Maybe he got the larger picture. Not sure but I will do what I do with everyone else, extend my hand and be ready to break an arm. =-)
Now that I have the basics worked out, I am hoping I don't embarrass myself to much.