Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Sir_Prometheus on <06-11-14/0905:37>
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Mostly talking about the ways to switch things out for willpower for full defense. Wouldn't just about every street sam /adept want to switch agility for willpower for full defense? I think we're talking a 3 point swing pretty often, for just 3 karma, and these guys are the same one that have enough initiative that they can take the interrupt action easily.
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Nope. Any sammy that isn't an idiot will still invest at least something into Willpower, because that's where your Stun track comes from, and higher armor characters take more stun than physical.
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I think it's pretty common to have an agi of 6 (or higher, with cyberware) and a willpower of say, 3. So we're talking like a 3 point swing, at least.
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I haven't actually played in a game with R&G qualities yet, so I can't really base this on experience, but up to now, going Full Defense seems like a pretty rare thing for most characters, the only notable exception being slow, tank-y sams. Most players want to alpha strike and taking the -10 hit to your initiative is a daunting proposition. If FD is just used situationally, then the cost seems about right.
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I wont say if they are 'overpowered' or not, but I literally cringed when I saw the "Too Pretty" one. I had a player that had a 9 Charisma. *shutter*
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I wont say if they are 'overpowered' or not, but I literally cringed when I saw the "Too Pretty" one. I had a player that had a 9 Charisma. *shutter*
"Not in the face!"
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Well yeah, this is kinda my point -- if you're a street sam with agi much higher than willpower (normal, willpower doesn't have to be a "dump stat") or sure, a face or an elven shaman with high charisma, these qualities are just obvious choices.
I will also point out that if you are going first, you can always take your first action, alpha strike, THEN use full defense.
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-10 initiative can be a lot, if you don't start with an ambush. You have to make your first pass count, because you're giving the enemy two consecutive passes, which can be dangerous.
These qualities can be a no-brainer, but they cost karma, which might be needed for other things. I don't like builds where the primary purpose is only dodging. Offense is more important in finishing the opposition..
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(And no point in taking full defense before anyone actually attack you. It is an interrupt action after all...)
Your opponent might get two attacks in a row, but just because you use full defense does not automatically make it so;
If you have 22 initiative and your opponent have 11 you will both act in the först initiative pass (you first). If you use full defense you will end up with 2 initiative score in the next initiative pass and your opponent will have 1. You both get to act in the second initiative pass and in this example you still get to act first in the second initiative pass as well.
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Can you move, then take a simple action, then take FD? Would that be -10 or -20 on your initiative since you took a simple?
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It would still only be -10 to your initiative. It's important to realize, as Xenon described, that using Full defense does not cost you your action phase in this or the next IP like it did in 4th edition (IIRC). It only costs your initiative score, which indirectly might mean you have no more actions in this round, but maybe not.
So when you move, and take a simple action, you still have a simple action left which you don't have to use, but when your turn is done, you can then take full defense (but like Xenon said, it's silly to do this interrupt before you're attacked). The interrupt action will cost you 10 and then the end of the IP will cost everyone 10 and thus begin the next IP.
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I wont say if they are 'overpowered' or not, but I literally cringed when I saw the "Too Pretty" one. I had a player that had a 9 Charisma. *shutter*
I wasn't as bothered by agile defender or even perceptive defender, but really your passive presence makes it harder to be shot. At the extreme levels where you have a fear aura or something maybe, but a 3 karma thing just doesn't pull it off for me. I can see it as an adept power or piece of ware perhaps. Or maybe since they went with the perception skill in one of the other qualities, the intimidate skill instead. At this point yhy not your burly muscles make you harder to shoot, your logical mind, your intuitive nature so you can defense double dip with intuition etc. Once you go this route you minds as well go full 4e D&D and let people use whatever attribute they want. Your super scary burliness makes about as much sense as charisma.
As a side note it is fairly abusable. While I don't think full dodge characters are awesome mainly because the idiocy of area of effect attacks in this edition, they usually don;t give up that much in offense as they are pretty damn fast as well frequently getting one more action so if they have to go to interrupt its not that bad. At least willpower is not a dump stat, so it isn;t as bad as it could be.
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I like them, they give non combat characters some viable defense options that can save them in bad situation. Your base defense is still set by reaction and intuition so it can be crappy but they are giving the mage/shaman/decker a decent low cost Ohh ShXt button. I have seen them in play and they dont over balance anyone, shure a Sam can swing 3 or 4 more defense dice out of them alot of the time but those dice only happen when they are full dodging and taking a -10 on initiative which means 1 less pass for the sam to shoot some body. It sounds really good on paper but in practice the runners are almost always out numbered and struggling with action economy anyways. The -1 per attack and the penalties from full auto and such can strip away those extra dice very quickly and still leave the target eating rounds. Active defense that cost IPs does not win fights in shadowrun, Putting rounds down range and dropping targets wins fights in shadowrun. Besides ultimately you can have a defense roll of 50 dice, it wont help you vs Grenades and other AOE attacks or direct combat spells or most critter powers. If they players really jack up their traditional defenses then the GM just needs to hit them with some of the alternative attacks. In all honesty the cumulative -1 per attack in a pass means that just adding a few more goons can cancel out the bonus if the GM is really having a problem making the players sweat every once in a while.
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the "mage/shaman/decker " is the guy that's actually going to have a decent willpower, and won't be taking these qualities.
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It would still only be -10 to your initiative. It's important to realize, as Xenon described, that using Full defense does not cost you your action phase in this or the next IP like it did in 4th edition (IIRC). It only costs your initiative score, which indirectly might mean you have no more actions in this round, but maybe not.
So when you move, and take a simple action, you still have a simple action left which you don't have to use, but when your turn is done, you can then take full defense (but like Xenon said, it's silly to do this interrupt before you're attacked). The interrupt action will cost you 10 and then the end of the IP will cost everyone 10 and thus begin the next IP.
Ah, I see my disconnect. My table uses the R&G alternative Initiative rule. -10 after your turn, not -10 after everyone goes.
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the "mage/shaman/decker " is the guy that's actually going to have a decent willpower, and won't be taking these qualities.
True but elf shamans can easily sport 8 charisma, so it can pad them a few extra dice. And with the absurdity that is the increase reflexes spell they have the initiative to spare.
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OK. Like I said, in seems overpowered.
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I think you're overplaying things here. As was mentioned, Full Defense isn't something most players do that often, especially since your ranged defense test is more than just your Reaction score, like it was in 4th. It is the same reason why Harden is second only to Splash as the most useless move in Pokemon. You can't win a fight by going turtle. You have to attack. This really only comes into play when there's that pants-browning attack incoming, and you really need to get out of the way, because OH FRAG, THAT'S AN ASSAULT CANNON! Most times, it is usually better to do normal defense, and maybe use edge to reroll if you have to, than to go full defense. Sure, you have a potentially major swing of dice when going from Willpower to any other attribute, but this is a niche thing. Any character that relies entirely on full defense will eventually be ground down, just like that damn Metapod who uses nothing but Harden. Seriously, how do those things ever survive to level 10 to evolve if they do nothing but Harden?
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It would still only be -10 to your initiative. It's important to realize, as Xenon described, that using Full defense does not cost you your action phase in this or the next IP like it did in 4th edition (IIRC). It only costs your initiative score, which indirectly might mean you have no more actions in this round, but maybe not.
So when you move, and take a simple action, you still have a simple action left which you don't have to use, but when your turn is done, you can then take full defense (but like Xenon said, it's silly to do this interrupt before you're attacked). The interrupt action will cost you 10 and then the end of the IP will cost everyone 10 and thus begin the next IP.
Ah, I see my disconnect. My table uses the R&G alternative Initiative rule. -10 after your turn, not -10 after everyone goes.
Which still makes it -20 vs. -10. You shoot (22-10=12), he shoots (11-10=1), you interrupt-full-defense (12-10=2) and it's the next action - you go on 2, he goes on 1.
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I was more scared about the perceptive and acrobatic defender as it is easier to rise your skill far over 6 [natural max for humans, seems to be a good point of discusion]. It is doable to rise full defence dice pool for an adept up to 40* at character generation, and that is scary!
But: It was mentioned in few topics of mine and there are some conclusions. The Limits. As they have to be rised to some level to let it be usefull. About 10, or higher for physical is quite easy*, and I don't see an ocasion that would require more, oh, and you always have edge to break it.
*It is all about Adept. Mentor spirit, improved potential, and some other things make it worth it.
2.But: Initiative, at such a dramatic score, the initiative is hard to max. The problem would solve a mage with increased reflexes spell, or beeing a mystic adept capable of casting it**.
3.But: Points, it is a hell of a build. And it is hard to make it god at more than few things. It would propably use 2-3 skills based on REA, STR, INT, AGI[optional] as this would be his primary focus. So he could fill ap one role, combat specialist. With low CHA, WIL & LOG/
4.But: As a combat specialist he is not going to be a tank. No way he could really make a difrance, becouse enemy would have no problem with shooting his friends rather than him.
**A Mystic adept is a nice idea... with some problems. As there are only two traditions that use WIL or LOG for drain, [preferably you could not use AIG in build, and use those point for CHArismaitc elf ;)], or convince your GM to let you use a Bhuddistic tradition from 4ed, that resists drain on INT
5. If you really consider a mystic adept, thing about a spellslinger.
As a promised, here is a link to such a build. Still, i just caped the Full Defence Dice Pool at about ~30 +/-5
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=16787.msg296783#msg296783 (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=16787.msg296783#msg296783)
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I think you're overplaying things here. As was mentioned, Full Defense isn't something most players do that often, especially since your ranged defense test is more than just your Reaction score, like it was in 4th. It is the same reason why Harden is second only to Splash as the most useless move in Pokemon. You can't win a fight by going turtle. You have to attack. This really only comes into play when there's that pants-browning attack incoming, and you really need to get out of the way, because OH FRAG, THAT'S AN ASSAULT CANNON! Most times, it is usually better to do normal defense, and maybe use edge to reroll if you have to, than to go full defense. Sure, you have a potentially major swing of dice when going from Willpower to any other attribute, but this is a niche thing. Any character that relies entirely on full defense will eventually be ground down, just like that damn Metapod who uses nothing but Harden. Seriously, how do those things ever survive to level 10 to evolve if they do nothing but Harden?
Your excessive use of Pokemon analogies pleases me.
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I didn't think they were too overpowered. I think in the grand scheme of things, that those who don't have the great combat stats, get enough of a boost to make it that little bit easier for them. Depending on the nature of your game, that could be useful or it could be what they need to do to survive.
I suppose I do like the Too Pretty To Hit quality as that does fit my character concept quite nicely. She's one that does rely on her looks to get through with a bluff rather than a gun. That being said, she doesn't play fair either and is rather talented with long arms.
For the book being about combat, I don't know if I expected more from it to be honest. More qualities, on a whole I guess.
As for the Pokemon references, analogies, that makes me feel old. I remember these type of discussions. Held in fact, in person.
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The reality is that as soon as you get perceptive defender you bring a skill into the test and suddenly you have your Physical limit on your defense tests. Which means its only good if you have a great Perception skill and a great physical limit.
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I have to admit I'd likely state that 'Too Pretty To Hit' applied only for as long as the character was not shooting back. 'Cause once you start sending lead downrange, buddy, it don't matter how pretty your face is, you just got a hell of a lot uglier ...
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I have to admit I'd likely state that 'Too Pretty To Hit' applied only for as long as the character was not shooting back. 'Cause once you start sending lead downrange, buddy, it don't matter how pretty your face is, you just got a hell of a lot uglier ...
Perchance some Army of Darkness in there?
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Not intentionally.
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Or as i just realized Acrobatic defender applies the physical limit, Perceptive defender is a Mental skill and brings the Mental limit to the table. Your average street Sam may have his physical limit jack up to the point it dont matter but his mental limit is probably not that good. Fun thing about 5E is you gotta balance out your dice pool vs your limit cause having a dice pool of 50 with a limit of 3 means your a 3 hit wonder and anyone with a pool of 12 to 15 dice and a limit of 4+ will out perform you most of the time. So perceptive defender is really only good if you have great perception skill and a good mental limit to back it up. Most Sams dont have a great mental limit its some where in the 4 to 6 range for a typical street sam which means alot of guns can hit them as soon as they can get accuracy 7+ cause the Sam just cant keep enough hits. Acrobatic defender is a larger candidate for abuse as it uses the physical limit which is in the 8+ range for alot of sams. But lets face it, how useful is gymnastics? most characters are not trying to get gymnastics much higher the 3 or 4 for some basic competency when the limited usefulness of gymnastics comes up. Perception is a skill every runner needs and every runner can justify spending more Karma on it till its maxed.
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Of course you could be playing a dwarf street sam, and have your Will power all kinds of maxed out with just a few additions.