Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: firebug on <06-12-14/0124:36>
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Is there any actual rules on what happens if a character has zero dice for a skill? I am talking 1 in the attribute, none in the skill. A player of mine is building a character with 1 intuition-- So no dice for perception. Among other things. If forced to make the roll, what do they do? If they just don't roll and get no hits, it is actually better than if they had only 1-3 dice, since they have no chance of a critical glitch. However, I am unsure if, say, having it count as "critical glitch always forever" is too harsh.
Any advice?
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I wonder how critical glitches would work with perception anyway. You'd be accidentally blinding yourself every few minutes, since you're basically perceiving all the time.
But yeah, 1 is more dangerous then 0, because you can't glitch with 0 (unless you houserule it). But you can't succeed ever either. It kind of depends on what you're rolling I guess; with perception it doesn't really matter much, but with things like etiquette the result is stranger.
At any rate, not having perception is it's own punishment, no need to be harsher in this specific circumstance I'd think.
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Zero Dice = zero success = automatic Failure (not a Glitch) unless You use Edge.
HougH!
Medicineman
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At any rate, not having perception is it's own punishment, no need to be harsher in this specific circumstance I'd think.
Well this is important for all the scenario like this. It really encourages min-maxing if having 0 dice can be better than just having up to even as much as like, 4. Since the likelyhood of failing is so high for things with that little dice pool and the fact that now suddenly you can glitch and critical glitch. Considering a critical glitch is worse than just not trying at all in most situations, it seems unfair for the people who put a bit into something "just to be able to do it" be worse than the people who min-maxed to the point of having no dice.
It's gotta be more than just "you cannot do this" because there's nothing physically stopping you from attempting and, in the case of stuff like Perception, it can be forced upon you.
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You could have the player roll 1d6, if it is a 1 he crit glitches otherwise it is a plain failure. Rolling a 5 or 6 gives no benefit.
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At any rate, not having perception is it's own punishment, no need to be harsher in this specific circumstance I'd think.
Well this is important for all the scenario like this. It really encourages min-maxing if having 0 dice can be better than just having up to even as much as like, 4. Since the likelyhood of failing is so high for things with that little dice pool and the fact that now suddenly you can glitch and critical glitch. Considering a critical glitch is worse than just not trying at all in most situations, it seems unfair for the people who put a bit into something "just to be able to do it" be worse than the people who min-maxed to the point of having no dice.
It's gotta be more than just "you cannot do this" because there's nothing physically stopping you from attempting and, in the case of stuff like Perception, it can be forced upon you.
Well, it is a bit more than "you cannot do this" as a person with a die pool of 0 "cannot succeed at doing this," make as many attempts as you want, you won't succeed. For most tests you need at least 1 hit for it to be considered a success, and with no dice, no hits.
But keep in mind that defaulting on an attribute of 1 does not always mean no dice, other modifiers can still apply. Taking Perception as our example: Concealablity is a big modifier, it can give you bonus dice (not just take them away). But remember, that any sort of penalties can take them back away. So while having a base die pool of 0 for Perception doesn't necessarily mean that a person is blind (you can still notice things that are obvious), it does mean that your chances of noticing things when the GM asks for a Perception test is likely to end in failure.
Say an enemy is sporting an assault rifle (Concealability +6), you'll have 6 dice with that untrained Intuition 1 runner to notice. Not too bad really. Now, if that guy is wearing a long coat (-2), it's shady out (-1), and the enemy is a little ways off (-2), good luck noticing that gun with your 1 die before he starts opening fire.
For instances like Perception, where skill tests come up frequently, it might be important to remember those modifiers. Otherwise I would say using the 1 die method posted by reyjinn to see if something really bad comes up with the auto fail could work...
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At any rate, not having perception is it's own punishment, no need to be harsher in this specific circumstance I'd think.
Well this is important for all the scenario like this. It really encourages min-maxing if having 0 dice can be better than just having up to even as much as like, 4. Since the likelyhood of failing is so high for things with that little dice pool and the fact that now suddenly you can glitch and critical glitch. Considering a critical glitch is worse than just not trying at all in most situations, it seems unfair for the people who put a bit into something "just to be able to do it" be worse than the people who min-maxed to the point of having no dice.
It's gotta be more than just "you cannot do this" because there's nothing physically stopping you from attempting and, in the case of stuff like Perception, it can be forced upon you.
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Say an enemy is sporting an assault rifle (Concealability +6), you'll have 6 dice with that untrained Intuition 1 runner to notice. Not too bad really. Now, if that guy is wearing a long coat (-2), it's shady out (-1), and the enemy is a little ways off (-2), good luck noticing that gun with your 1 die before he starts opening fire.
For instances like Perception, where skill tests come up frequently, it might be important to remember those modifiers. Otherwise I would say using the 1 die method posted by reyjinn to see if something really bad comes up with the auto fail could work...
I'm pretty sure they have to get the rifle out of the longcoat before they can fire, so you'd get a (less penalized) roll then.
But that's not the main issue. I see the point people make, practically, having 1 dice is worse then 0. I guess it also depends on the effect the glitch has though. What would a glitch on a perception check even do anyway? But there'll certainly be other checks that might be forced upon you that would end up worse for glitching.
So, I like the (house)rule about rolling one dice for glitch.
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I think I'm gonna be doing that. Roll a d6, a 1 is a critical glitch, all else is just standard failure.
I don't know what a glitch on a perception test would be... I mean, a normal success + glitch is easy; you spot whatever it is, but miss a (possibly vital) detail about it. For a critical glitch... Other than say, starting with a penalty to your initiative if it's a combat... I don't know what it would normally be.
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Well if it's a teen, they could be completely oblivious to the item/person.
Son came in one day and asked where the car was as it wasn't on the driveway.
I told him it was in the shop and had been there for the last 5 days (waiting on a part).
He said he hadn't noticed until today.
He will never make it as a scout. :P
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Crit glitch could also be getting distracted by a sound from another direction. Which, when I think about it, would probably just result in a neg initiative mod.
He/she/it could also be 100% sure that something is happening 'that way', if nothing else it could lead to fun RP when everyone else on the team has to convince the runner that he is wrong.
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As Medicineman pointed out, if you have zero dice, you can't attempt to get a success without spending Edge. Tell your player that he's about to be in for a world of hurt.
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1 Int is a terrible idea. You're basically always going to be surprised by combat you haven't specifically prepared for in advance. And the surprise rules are harsh.
That's plenty consequence. You don't need crit glitches in this case, because you always get the negative outcome, never the positive.
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1 Int is a terrible idea. You're basically always going to be surprised by combat you haven't specifically prepared for in advance. And the surprise rules are harsh.
That's plenty consequence. You don't need crit glitches in this case, because you always get the negative outcome, never the positive.
But my problem is, if they had only 1 die, or even a small handful, they'd realistically fail a massive percentage of the time anyways, and risk glitches and critical glitches. One die would only be a single hit 33% of the time, which often isn't enough, and then about 16.5% of the time it'd be a critical failure. I'm kinda repeating myself, but it just doesn't sit well that zero dice lacks the biggest risk a low dice pool has. It seriously encourages minmaxing; a character with no social skills and 3 Charisma is more likely to cause a huge scene and will virtually always fail if they try to lie or blend in than someone with 1, who will just standard fail always.
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I don't see why a GM would be unable to say (within the rules) that, of your zero dice, more than half of them (51% or more of zero) came up 1's. That's the only relevant point for judging whether a glitch happens. Successes matter in number, 1's matter in percentage.
If more than half the dice you rolled show a one, then you’ve got problems. This is called a glitch.
There may be circumstances where a player rolls a glitch and also does not achieve a single hit. This is called a critical glitch, and this is where the drek hits the fan.
Then again, I'm not exactly math-focused.
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What you say has merit about the low dice pool glitch problem. And it seems like a big deal on paper and theory crafting. But in practice having zero dice for actions is generally its own penalty and really tends to take care of its self. As has already been pointed out hes got and Intuition of 1, and no perception skill. Thats pretty much a permanent -10 to initiative as hes NEVER going to see the bad guys coming most of the time and its further compounded by your defense pool being based on Intuition and reaction so even if hes rocking a massive reaction of like 10 or so his defense rolls are still sub par and can be quite deadly if he has not turned himself into a reaction monster. Also your initiative score its self is based on reaction + intuitions as well so the Penalties for this little bit of min maxing are hes got ShXt for an initiative score, hes got a very commonly occurring penalty to his already crappy initiative score and when the bad guys start shooting hes pretty much going to be running into the bullets. Quite frankly even if this guy is a troll with 15 body and is some how allowed to stroll through down town in Heavy Millspec armor and his riot sheild he still probably wont make it though the 1st couple fire fights the team gets in unless you just take pity on him and dont bother shooting him.
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You could have the player roll 1d6, if it is a 1 he crit glitches otherwise it is a plain failure. Rolling a 5 or 6 gives no benefit.
If the GM rolled for the player then the player wouldn't know if they glitched. Overall, I agree/like some kind of house rule on this. Maybe a zero skill should be a glitch on a 1, or even a 1 and a 2 since that would be worse than a 1 skill.
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You're pretty spot on, SunRunner. Since I'm doing a one-off, I have no problem demonstrating to him how min-maxing like that doesn't fly in Shadowrun. He's also rather Strength and Melee focused; he's a badly made character. I could have said "make a different character" but since he had the audacity to make such a min-maxed character (1 in all mentals but WIL, which is 3) when he's played other RPGs and should have known better... I'm just gonna be pretty ruthless on him. Everyone else is decent, and only a little min-maxy... Which I attribute to one particular player in my group. But they are at least reasonable and have a concept beyond their archetypes.
Regardless, while 1 INT is bad enough, I'd ask people to stop focusing on it. What about 1s in other things?
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1's in anything is an excuse to not feel bad about giving NPCs the Decrease (Dumpstat) spell.
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A 1 in Intuition is just plain dumb. It is not just perception and initiative - it is also one of the two Attributes used for passive defense. It is an extremely important Attribute!
Also, keep in mind modifiers, where positive ones come up less than negative ones. Someone with a dice pool of 1 is also likely to run into situations where they don't get to roll fairly often.
I wouldn't worry too much about them not getting critical glitches - constant failure is enough of a drawback.
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I don't really see the issue here tbh....
Having a base dice pool size of 1 dice is not the same as always having a dice pool of 1 dice after positive and negative dice pool modifications.
If you only have a dice pool of 1 dice after positive and negative modifications then maybe you should consider not taking the test at all, but at least you do have a [small] chance of getting a hit (and there is always edge if you get a glitch). If you have a dice pool of 0 dice after positive and negative modifications then any and all attempts to take the test will always automatically fail.
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I don't see why a GM would be unable to say (within the rules) that, of your zero dice, more than half of them (51% or more of zero) came up 1's. That's the only relevant point for judging whether a glitch happens. Successes matter in number, 1's matter in percentage.
If more than half the dice you rolled show a one, then you’ve got problems. This is called a glitch.
There may be circumstances where a player rolls a glitch and also does not achieve a single hit. This is called a critical glitch, and this is where the drek hits the fan.
Then again, I'm not exactly math-focused.
The problem here is that 0 is a weird and special number. In most cases, if you have 51% (or any percentage over 50%) of the dice coming up 1, that's "over half" of the dice. So if you had 0 dice, then 51% would be 0, so it'd be "over half" for that reasoning. But the 51% rule is a shortcut, and doesn't apply in the case of 0. After all, what percentage of dice came up 1? You have 0 1's and 0 total dice, so the percentage is 0/0 (*100%). 0/0 is indeterminate; 51% is "correct", but so is 12%, or 4242%. Because 4242% of 0 is also 0. And, crucially, 50% - half - is also possible. Since 0 is half of 0, 0 isn't over half of 0 (even if 51% of 0 is also 0), so it's not enough. So you can't use this line of reasoning for 0, because 0 is weird.
You can, however, work reversely from the other side. The rule states that "over half" of the dice needs to be one. So whatever number of dice is half, you need to have a number that is bigger then that. Since dice come in whole units, you need the first whole number that isn't half the dice pool itself.
50% of 0 is 0, so you need one more dice then that, so you'd need at least 1.
Of course, that's the mathy, strictly rules-wise interpretation; I already stated that I wouldn't mind a houserule like that. But within the rules, as you stated, your reasoning isn't correct.
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Intuition is just too important to be a 1, quit frankly its a suicidal decision and will self correct if you run the game even close to the way it should be run.
But if you look at most stats having a 1 in it is a serious draw back in its own right. Dump stated charisma is a popular choice for uniformed street sams. But the reality is they have no chance to talk their way past a KE/corp patrol, no chance to get past the bouncers at the nova hot club other then coughing up alot of yen. Now they build this way because they assume the team face is going to do all the talking for them and for alot of the time they will be right, but lets face it eventually the face wont be around. This means that he pays alot more for info or work from his contacts because well they always beat the pants off him in the negotiation rolls. He has problems fencing his loot because again they know hes a sucker and the take him for a ride every chance they can. Its a principle I learned playing in the HERO system if a PC takes a disadvantage its your job as the GM to make sure that disadvantage comes up, and the bigger the disad the more often it needs to come up. He also has a logic of one, quite frankly this means alot of everyday tasks that just get glossed over are now challenges to him. Logic 1 and no computer skills means even basic GOOGLE searches fail for him.., Let that sink in for a minuet. He has built in effect a moron, or a low functioning autistic character. Hes Blaster from Mad Max thunder dome. He literally has to have some one hold his hand most of the day because he CANT figure any thing out, He CANT get directions to the club the team has a meet with a johnson at. He fails that check, its that simple, So unless the team wrights down directions for him. Hell arguably he cant even check his email or answer his comlink to talk to people. You dont need to add some mystical magical glitch roll to your game to punish this min maxing, just taking the rules as is will do it just fine for him.
I normally would not enforce rules to this level most of the time but if some one is silly enough to build a character with 1 intuition, 1 logic, and 1 charisma well then they deserve anything they get.
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You can come a long way with a big edge pool
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Of course, that's the mathy, strictly rules-wise interpretation; I already stated that I wouldn't mind a houserule like that. But within the rules, as you stated, your reasoning isn't correct.
I had a player argue a similar issue with me until we were both figuratively blue in the face. He argued that if he rolled only 1 die, and got a one that it shouldn't be a critical glitch. I argued that when you're only rolling 1 die, you're taking a big chance of not just failing but uber-failing. This went back and forth for months, as the topic didn't come up too often. In the end, the interpretation of the rules is up to the GM, and the players should respect that.
At my table, if you're rolling 0 dice, you have a 0% chance of succeeding. But you also have a 0% chance of getting a glitch or critical glitch. Instead, you have a 100% chance of failure.
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While I believe that the idea of Intuition-1 is a "Self Correcting Problem" the second the bullets start to fly.
If you really wanted to be mean & show that low skills should never be a "positive" then yes, do a roll of 1 die & on a 1 it causes a Critical Glitch.
All the more reason to always have at least 1 Skill Rank in most anything you might ever needs, because even 2 dice means you have to roll Snake Eyes (1/36) to get a Critical Glitch.