Shadowrun
Catalyst Game Labs => Catalyst's Shadowrun Products => Topic started by: Mystic on <06-30-14/2043:02>
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Bust out the foci and get ready for some serious spell-slinging, the 5th Ed magic book is available in PDF form at the usual places.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/131832/Shadowrun-Street-Grimoire (don't see Battleshop with a link...yet)
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Hard copies also up up for pre-order:
(http://cdn.shadowruntabletop.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/SG-Main-Graphic.jpg?4713c7)
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There will be a sea of red on the second shelf of my left bookcase...
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The bundles are a nice idea but Battlecorps leaves much to be desired. DriveThroughRPG has a much better service record and customer awareness. Now if there were any way to give my LGS credit for the physical sale and bundle the pdf then I would be all over that. With the currant system of using exclusive distribution I just don't see how it could happen.
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So which Shadowrun writer has been watching Grimm lately? The story Piston tells in the Dark Magic section about the baby eater sounds awfully familiar.
Well, except for the part with the legs.
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The bundles are a nice idea but Battlecorps leaves much to be desired. DriveThroughRPG has a much better service record and customer awareness. Now if there were any way to give my LGS credit for the physical sale and bundle the pdf then I would be all over that. With the currant system of using exclusive distribution I just don't see how it could happen.
I don't use CGL for PDF sourcing anymore...for pretty much the reasons noted. I do use them, for some of these LE releases, but otherwise, physical copies come from either Amazon or FLGS.
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The bundles are a nice idea but Battlecorps leaves much to be desired. DriveThroughRPG has a much better service record and customer awareness. Now if there were any way to give my LGS credit for the physical sale and bundle the pdf then I would be all over that. With the currant system of using exclusive distribution I just don't see how it could happen.
It's a shame Catalyst didn't continue with their RED (Retail Electronic Delivery)
http://www.catalystgamelabs.com/2009/09/25/catalyst-red/
http://www.catalystgamelabs.com/2010/11/09/catalyst-game-labs-catalyst-red-update/
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RED was too much overhead for too little return. I did not shed a tear when it went away.
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I do love the look of that red leather binding. I wish I could get all of the books in that. But the wife and I are trying to move to an all-digital system to save space and frustration (mostly with moving - moving books sucks!).
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(mostly with moving - moving books sucks!).
As someone in the process of moving (including the collected Grendel series, the Knights of the Old Republic & Legacy Star Wars Comics PLUS all the CCNA books from Cisco) I feel you.
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I recently moved myself and after getting rid of all the crap I just didn't need (which obviously would never ever include any of my books!), I literally ended up with as many boxes of books as I did all of my other belongings put together.
I can (and have) easily drop all of my unimportant junk and liv out of a single trunk for extended periods of time, but I just can't stop gathering books.
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I do love the look of that red leather binding. I wish I could get all of the books in that. But the wife and I are trying to move to an all-digital system to save space and frustration (mostly with moving - moving books sucks!).
I have that same issue. Last couple years I've purchased WAY more PDFs than Books. I love real books but there is just only so much space.
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so, why is it that I can go buy this in PDF only from drivethrurpg but I can't on battlecorps, the same applies for run & gun, PDF only I have to go to DTRPG, hardcopy+pff = battlecorps.....anybody have an idea?
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I'm really disappointed in the quality of editing on this book.
It's like this book was put together by a cut-paste savant, not a game developer. Whoever is in charge of editing SR books needs to be replaced, or if they're "too big to fire" they need to refocus on actually doing their job.
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I'm really disappointed in the quality of editing on this book.
It's like this book was put together by a cut-paste savant, not a game developer. Whoever is in charge of editing SR books needs to be replaced, or if they're "too big to fire" they need to refocus on actually doing their job.
Yeah, and it's not just the rule text either. The spelling and grammar errors throughout are the worst for any 5th edition book so far. As an example of just how bad it is, there's a grammar error in the summary of the book on the back cover. Right off the bat, they start making mistakes, and nobody caught it.
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Yeah, and its just not the rule text either.
My earlier comment was posted prior to hitting page 30. So far it's the cut-n-pastiest thing I've read in years.
Pot's legal up there now; maybe they at least have a justification for this level of craftmanship.
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The editing here is really, really bad. Powers that have as a prerequiste other powers that don't exist. (I'm told many of those are going to be upcoming supplement....that isn't actually any better. Having as a prereq a power that doesn't exist yet isn't cool. Not even mentioning that the power is "upcoming" is worse) Drain codes for spells that are obviously wrong, all over the place. 3 or 4 spells that have to be physical listed as mana. Balance is just all over the place, and most of the options for adepts you'd never want to take.
The editing for the main rulebook really wasn't good. Run& gun was pretty good, actually, though it was laid out weird. This is just awful, though, easily twice as bad as the main book. You really should be ashamed.
Fluff & fiction are all right. But I just can't get past the atrocious editing and poor balance.
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You really should be ashamed.
Out of curiosity, whom are you directing this comment at? The only people I've seen posting are fans or freelancers, none of whom are responsible.
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*shrug*
If the writers never read these forums, then they should.
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Many of the writers, who are also the freelancers, do read and contribute here frequently. There are a couple of other threads currently active where they've commented on both the process and their roles.
Please don't misunderstand me, I understand and agree with your sentiment. However, the way *I* read it, came across as a dig at people involved in the process, but with no control over the final decisions being made. Suspect you'd need to ping either Jason Hardy or Randall Bills for that.
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I mean, I don't know who exactly is responsible for what. Like I said, the fluff and fiction seems fine. Like I said, it's mostly the editing, which I imagine is a senior in-house person and not a freelancer -- that guy really dropped the ball.
Who was in charge of the drain codes, and things like making sure a spell was physical vs mana? A freelancer or an editor? Whichever, they messed up pretty badly. Who decided the PP costs of adept powers, and cost of Ways Qualities? That guy messed up pretty badly. Almost everything in the Adept section is underpowered and overcosted, costs an action when it probably shouldn't, and generally written as if we still had unarmed adepts who could punch a tank. Conversely, a lot of the "Enhancements" are SUPER awesome and quite cheap.
Penetrating Spell is literally useless.
Adepts can use the appropriate rituals, but Aspected Conjurers can not.
I could write a "sternly worded letter" and I might, even. But this is a review. I'm reviewing.
I coudl go on.
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You could go on, but you shouldn't. The freelancers are not responsible for the content. The whole process is a team effort, and there are people involved that no one here is at liberty to discuss, who make these decisions. If you want to make a dig at someone, make it at them. But be aware that they are not reading these forums (to my knowledge). Please do us all a favor and don't get into your old habits again.
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Please do me a favor and don't accuse me of something I did not do.
I don't really know who to blame, but I just said I doubt it was a freelancer. I'm assuming someone doesn't freelance edit, or is responsible for balancing numbers. If they are, well then, they are to blame!
I never said anything about freelancers, originally. I don't really care if freelancers are to blame, or not. Why are we talking about freelancers?
The book is really badly edited, and the balance is also poor. I think most people agree on that, and I don't there's anything wrong with saying so.
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The problem is that there are currently three threads about this same topic. And one of them has actually gotten some attention from Critias, who clarified the whole thing and gave a lot of valuable insight. Insight that, had you read it, would have (hopefully) prevented you from making the assumption that you know what's going on at Catalyst.
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I'm surprised there are only 3. I also didn't start a NEW thread on the topic, which I was tempted to.
Again, don't put words in my mouth. I did not nor do I claim to know what's going on at catalyst. (though I would like to see that thread, if you have a link) All I know is that the product has some huge faults. I stated so, and really would appreciate if you respected my right to an opinion.
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You are completely within your right to state your opinion. But your opinion involved what appeared to be a very personal insult at the people involved in the process, such as the freelancers. And that's just mean. Calling you out on that shouldn't be met with hostility, but rather you should apologize for what you said and move on.
Also, here (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=17234.msg305276#msg305276) is the thread you were asking about.
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Point of order, it's not personal it's professional. Kinda the point, the editing really is not worthy of professional work, and you would not want to list it in your portfolio.
And WHY are you bringing up freelancers again? I have never said anything about freelancers.
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You really should be ashamed.
How is this not a personal attack? As AJCarrington pointed out - who is this directed toward? Your answer was:
I mean, I don't know who exactly is responsible for what.
So you made a blanket attack against people who you don't know anything about. Sounds about par for the course.
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Correct. It is in fact a professional criticism, not personal.
It's not a "blanket attack", it was a very specific criticism. I can tell you exactly what I think was wrong. I also have no idea why you think that just because I don't know how the sausage is made, I'm not allowed to criticize the sausage (or indeed, the sausage maker)
We have now filled a page talking about how you hate everything I say and how I say it. Yayyyyyy.
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"Blanket attack" refers to attacking everyone, rather than a specific target. You essentially said that every single person involved with the book should be ashamed.
I also have no idea why you think that just because I don't know how the sausage is made, I'm not allowed to criticize the sausage (or indeed, the sausage maker)
You might have missed me saying this:
You are completely within your right to state your opinion.
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"Blanket attack" refers to attacking everyone, rather than a specific target. You essentially said that every single person involved with the book should be ashamed.
No, I very specifically did not. I almost said the opposite. Please re-read.
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Guys, could you just agree to disagree and drop it, please?
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Guys, could you just agree to disagree and drop it, please?
Seriously, this. While the defense is appreciated, it's unnecessary. It's okay, guys.
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So while Patrick is about, seeing as Light as a spell element didn't make the cut for the SG, any chance it may be coming in an Infected piece down the road? :)
Tan[Infected], Sunburn[Infected], Crispy[Infected]
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So while Patrick is about, seeing as Light as a spell element didn't make the cut for the SG, any chance it may be coming in an Infected piece down the road? :)
Tan[Infected], Sunburn[Infected], Crispy[Infected]
It's always a possibility, but I'm not positive at the moment.
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So while Patrick is about, seeing as Light as a spell element didn't make the cut for the SG, any chance it may be coming in an Infected piece down the road? :)
Tan[Infected], Sunburn[Infected], Crispy[Infected]
It's always a possibility, but I'm not positive at the moment.
Well one can hope. 8)
In the meantime, gotta deliver this truckload of SPF360 before dawn.
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Well one can hope. 8)
In the meantime, gotta deliver this truckload of SPF360 before dawn.
Have fun with that. :)
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The problem is that there are currently three threads about this same topic. And one of them has actually gotten some attention from Critias, who clarified the whole thing and gave a lot of valuable insight. Insight that, had you read it, would have (hopefully) prevented you from making the assumption that you know what's going on at Catalyst.
Frankly, it doesn't matter what's going on at Catalyst nor that Critias implied it was a problem higher up the chain of command. The result is still the result, and that result is a very poorly put together book. No amount of insight makes the published product any better, nor does your obvious personal dislike of Prometheus or unnecessarily hostile tone with him.
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Man, I'm really disliking supplements for SR 5e so far. Editing errors aside it seems like there is much less content than previous editions for way more money. Personally, I don't mind paying extra money but I want to get my money's worth.
Off the top of my head I have these issues with the Street Grimoire:
1) Writing Formulae. This was one of the main reasons why I wanted the book. I wonder if the Matrix book will not have writing your own programs. It's sad because the book talks about everyone designing spell formulae throughout the book. The Core book mentions you use Arcana to write formulae and there are rules for writing spirit formulae but what about spells and foci?
2) Cost Differences with similar Adept Powers. This has been discussed elsewhere.
3) The Reagent section and the refined and radical qualities seems to have little purpose at all. What's the point of orichalcum? Can you use these things in normal spellcasting?
4) I was disappointed in the number of qualities available.
It's really sad because I absolutely love Shadowrun. But it's almost getting to the point where I'm going to stop buying their products and just make up anything I'm lacking.
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Sorry to chime in but imho Sir_Prometheus is pretty much being attacked for no reason. Namikaze is clearly in defensive mode to protect people he cares for and is not viewing the original review fairly. Prometheus has 100% justification to be unsatisfied with the book and come here to state his opinions. I don't think he made a personal attack against anyone in particular. Bottom line is this: If a book is released with very poor balance and an enormous amount of errors, people are going to be upset. As for me, I have not yet read the book.
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Sorry to chime in but imho Sir_Prometheus is pretty much being attacked for no reason. Namikaze is clearly in defensive mode to protect people he cares for and is not viewing the original review fairly.
It's not even just for expressing this particular (commonly held) opinion. At this point Namikaze appears to be following Prometheus from thread to thread and picking fights over anything he posts, even when asked to stop.
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Sir_ Prometheus isn't as pure innocent you seem to think he is. Perhaps you should be reminded who has had more threads locked? Sir_ or Namikaze?
"Let He Without Negative Programming Code The First Virus"
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I don't need to be reminded of anything, thanks.
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Hey. Knock it off, guys. Keep the conversation to Street Grimoire, or take it to another thread.
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The Good:
I enjoyed reading the book. I particularly like where traditions went.
I enjoy the new alchemy stuff, I think that whole area is really fun and opens up new creative thinking. I'm just waiting for someone to show up at a table with some magic bullets.
I like many of the new spells. The new metamagic are cool, and look like good places to go into.
The story fluff foci focus stuff was good fun.
The system to finally enforce spirit justice is great. Having watched far to many spirits get abused over the course many games I am super pleased to see this.
The Less good:
To begin as with those above I also agree that the editing it lacking and this is serious, the product can't be taken seriously if it doesn't look like the designers took it seriously.
I agree after reviewing the errata forums all the XYZ Way of the Adept Stuff is over costed. The spell stuff bugs me less, generally easier to guess what's intended.
I do think there are issues with ritual stuff that needs to be considered and clarified what is "ritual magic" the skill vs What's Ritual via metamagic, but I like the concepts. I also find it interesting that beyond rituals there was basically nothing concerning Foci. Still no armor focus? Also some clarification of what can be a foci remains needed. (Particularly weapon foci.)
Spirit Pacts, they are discussed but no values for them are given, which were listed at-least in part in the last street magic. (Yeah GM power stuff aside)
There is considerable discussion concerning background count, and how to screw with it, which while interesting I feel like is dangerous waters to play in. A circumstance penalty or advantage are all well and good, having a freak mana storm roll up can be a cool challenge. But there is a fair amount of discussion in here that will make magic unusable, and that as a player makes me nervous.
The how to be a combat mage section was an interesting read, while it discussed a great deal around being a combat mage, I'm not sure it really covered practical spell throwing, and I really feel like it failed to address the importance of counterspelling. I can understand not wanting to put casters into a box, with this is only this method work yatta yatta, but at the same time a newbie isn't going to walk away from this with a whole lot more conception of what to do with their new character. I also found the debate by the board members to be concerning. Do we really want to suggest to player my roll is more expensive so i need a bigger cut of the lewt? I admit that can be very realistic argument to have. But its not something I'd prefer to see at any table I'm sitting at.
Magical societies- There is nearly a whole chapter discussing magical societies. But they fail to cover what they really need to cover. If my PC joins XYZ society, what is the benefit and what is the cost? So pay XXX a month to get X percentage off initiation xp cost, use of this Y rated ritual space, and maybe Z percentage of instruction/spell research/community out reach etc. Be subject this set of limitations etc etc.
My last point, is aspected magic. 5th really doesn't like Aspected Magic, the priority system pretty wells screws it down to ineffectiveness, I was hoping this book would take steps to reverse that trend, the last street magic really supported Aspected Magic, but this really doesn't do anything for it.
That's my 2 cents. Carry on!
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Ok so my friend said that this book was only 16 pages long!!! Is that right, or was he just looking at a free sample download or something?
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It's a 234-page pdf file. Maybe he was looking at a preview?
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It's also possible that he was confusing it with the 4th edition PDF-only product Digital Grimoire, which is just 16 pages IIRC (don't have my thumb drive with me so can't check).