Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: zekim on <07-05-14/1534:04>
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I'm not a fan of the movement rules in Shadowrun. To replace them, I drew some inspiration from D&D/Pathfinder and created/modified the following actions.
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Free Action:
Step - Move 1 meter
Free Action:
Run- Roll Running + Strength [Physical]. Move 2 Meter per Hit (1 meter if Dwarf or Troll). Character counts as running until his next Initiative Pass
Simple Action:
Move - Move up to your walking speed.
Simple Action:
Melee Attack - Make a Melee attack.
Complex Action:
Full Melee Attack - Make a Melee Attack at +1 dice pool / +1 Accuracy
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Overall, the characters become faster. However, the movement is more proportional, gives more decision points, fits into the existing action system, and I don't have to keep track how far every figgin' NPC has moved during the current Combat Round. I also find that they work better than the original rules when using a map.
Melee had to be changed to a Simple action. The Complex action version is simply an Aim+Melee attack.
Spellcasting is still a Complex action as Reckless spellcasting already exists as a Simple action.
The Sprint Complex action has been removed as it is redundant. To do a Sprint, a character simply does two Move Simple actions followed by a Run free action.
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With these rules, characters will overall become slower and have significantly limited options in combat, since they're now using half their actions just to move. First and foremost, you completely eliminated the Run speed, so everyone is already moving half as far as they would be under the normal rules. Secondly, all the other actions in the book are balanced around the idea that you can move at will. You're removing a lot of the tactical positioning from the game by forcing your players to basically stand still and shoot at each other, because they'd be wasting their turns trying to get into new positions.
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I've played around with attempting to house rule movement rates in a similar fashion. It didn't work out. That's not to say you shouldn't keep trying, but it would require a complete revamp of how actions work, I think. Each character would have to get action points that they spend during their Initiative Pass, and movement and other actions would work against those action points. The difficulty is in finding a suitable cost for those action points for each action. And, of course, figuring out how to calculate the person's action point pool.
If you switched to that kind of system, I think this could work - otherwise, it's generally not going to work out the way you think it is.
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I use something very similar, also based of DnD 3.5/Pathfinder, and it's not at all unbalanced, because EVERYONE is playing by the same rules.
To me this way makes much more sense. If a Combat Round is defined as roughly 3 seconds, the average metahuman with AGL 3 could take a double move, that is using two simple actions to walk 6 meters. In three seconds. Or run twice that. But to ALSO be doing that while shooting and reloading OR making a full melee attack is stretching things in my mind. I don't have a problem with highly cybered characters doing more than that, which both systems still allow. This way a character with 3 initiative passes can walk three times their AGL, which is going to be 6 or higher. That's a lot of movement. It's just not free. Moving and taking cover and such SHOULD take up some of your actions. And even with taking a full Complex Action to make a melee attack you can still take a free 1 meter step. It's really quite balanced.
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With these rules, characters will overall become slower and have significantly limited options in combat, since they're now using half their actions just to move. First and foremost, you completely eliminated the Run speed, so everyone is already moving half as far as they would be under the normal rules.
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in my initial post, but I eliminated the Run speed as a cap on Combat Round movement. The only movement rate that I have kept is Walking and that only applies per Simple Action.
For example, a character with a Walking speed of 8m can spend 2 Simple actions to move 16m in a single initiative pass. If he has 3 initiative passes, he can move up to 48m if he spends all of his actions on moving.
Secondly, all the other actions in the book are balanced around the idea that you can move at will.
I disagree. Can you give some examples?
You're removing a lot of the tactical positioning from the game by forcing your players to basically stand still and shoot at each other, because they'd be wasting their turns trying to get into new positions.
I disagree. Shooting is usually a Simple action. Under the original rules, a character with an Agility of 4 and 2 initiative passes can run a total of 16 meters and shoot 2 times. Under my house rules that same character can move 16 meters and shoot 2 times. If that same character has 3 initiative passes, they could move an addition 8 meters further than they could in the original rules.
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Each character would have to get action points that they spend during their Initiative Pass, and movement and other actions would work against those action points.
Shadowrun already has an action point system. Each character gets 2 actions points per initiative pass. Simple actions cost 1 point, Complex actions cost 2, and Free actions cost 0 (limit 1).
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Each character would have to get action points that they spend during their Initiative Pass, and movement and other actions would work against those action points.
Shadowrun already has an action point system. Each character gets 2 actions points per initiative pass. Simple actions cost 1 point, Complex actions cost 2, and Free actions cost 0 (limit 1).
Yeah, but movement doesn't count against those action points.
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Each character would have to get action points that they spend during their Initiative Pass, and movement and other actions would work against those action points.
Shadowrun already has an action point system. Each character gets 2 actions points per initiative pass. Simple actions cost 1 point, Complex actions cost 2, and Free actions cost 0 (limit 1).
Yeah, but movement doesn't count against those action points.
So? My goal is not to create a new system that gives the exact same result as the old system. As I didn't like how the old system worked or the results that it gave, that would be silly.
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Your goal is to do something that breaks the existing system by making movement cost an action. That makes more sense, sure.
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Your goal is to do something that breaks the existing system by making movement cost an action. That makes more sense, sure.
What does it break?
I'm being serious. I've been running 5th edition since it came out and I can't think of anything that would be negatively impacted by the changes I'm making.
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With these rules, characters will overall become slower and have significantly limited options in combat, since they're now using half their actions just to move. First and foremost, you completely eliminated the Run speed, so everyone is already moving half as far as they would be under the normal rules.
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in my initial post, but I eliminated the Run speed as a cap on Combat Round movement. The only movement rate that I have kept is Walking and that only applies per Simple Action.
For example, a character with a Walking speed of 8m can spend 2 Simple actions to move 16m in a single initiative pass. If he has 3 initiative passes, he can move up to 48m if he spends all of his actions on moving.
So you don't find it at all unreasonable for an average agility 3 human who's high on Jazz to be able to move at 31+ miles per hour? (three initiative passes, two move actions per pass, plus a run action with at least 1 hit. He goes a lot faster with more average hits.)
Secondly, all the other actions in the book are balanced around the idea that you can move at will.
I disagree. Can you give some examples?
Imagine I'm an agility 3 average security guard. Here are a few examples of things I would be able to do in a single pass with the normal rules, but your new rules would disallow.
1: Take cover and return fire. (Move to cover, Take Cover simple action, Fire Weapon simple action.)
2: Retreat and reload. (Move away from combat, Remove Clip simple action, Reload Weapon simple action.)
3. Take cover and call for back up. (Move to cover, Take Cover simple action, Send Message simple action.)
4. Spray and pray while running away. (Run free action, moving away, Suppressive Fire complex action.)
5. Throw a grenade away before it kills me. (move to grenade, Pick Up Object simple action, Throw Weapon simple action, spend the rest of my movement getting further from the blast, Drop Prone free action.)
6. Ready a weapon a take cover. (Ready Weapon simple action, move to cover, Take Cover simple action.)
etc, etc.
You're removing a lot of the tactical positioning from the game by forcing your players to basically stand still and shoot at each other, because they'd be wasting their turns trying to get into new positions.
I disagree. Shooting is usually a Simple action. Under the original rules, a character with an Agility of 4 and 2 initiative passes can run a total of 16 meters and shoot 2 times. Under my house rules that same character can move 16 meters and shoot 2 times. If that same character has 3 initiative passes, they could move an addition 8 meters further than they could in the original rules.
The end result of these rules will do a few things.
1: Encourage players to prioritize more passes more than the base game already does. Whoever has the most passes wins, because they suddenly have half as many actions.
2: Make combat less interesting, since so much of it is now spent not actually participating. Player has Agility 4, wants to move 16 meters to get behind cover, and fire on the enemy. This is going to take him 3 passes by your rules. He moves 8 meters and readies his weapon and his turn is over. Then he moves 8 more meters and takes cover and his turn is over. He only starts shooting by his third turn. By the normal rules, He'd run over, take cover, and ready his weapon by the end of the first pass. And if he wants to quick draw, he can return fire immediately.
3: Reduce options in positioning. You may not realize it, but you are discouraging your players from ever moving less than their full movement rate, because it now makes them feel like they're wasting actions. Let's say the Agility 4 player wants to take cover behind a wall that's 12 meters away. One simple action only gets him 8 meters, and now he has to decide whether he wants to use his second simple and waste 4 meters worth of movement, and then be unable to take cover when he gets there anyway because he's out of actions, or if he's going to take a chance rolling Run and trying to get 2 hits. If he fucks up, he doesn't even get to the wall at all. You've now given your player an annoying choice that wouldn't even be an issue in the normal game, as he'd run the distance, take cover, and still have a spare action to do something else.
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So you don't find it at all unreasonable for an average agility 3 human who's high on Jazz to be able to move at 31+ miles per hour? (three initiative passes, two move actions per pass, plus a run action with at least 1 hit. He goes a lot faster with more average hits.)
It is no more unreasonable than a player of mine being able to move 56m and wack someone with a sword before anyone else can react. (Phys Apt with 7 Agility. Turn one, last Initiative Pass, he breaks cover and runs 28m; Turn 2 he wins initiative and runs 28 more meters and does a melee attack Complex action that gains the Charge bonus as he ran into combat)
Secondly, all the other actions in the book are balanced around the idea that you can move at will.
I disagree. Can you give some examples?
Imagine I'm an agility 3 average security guard. Here are a few examples of things I would be able to do in a single pass with the normal rules, but your new rules would disallow.
Sorry, but that list isn't proof. It is a series of activities and not actions. A better example would have been Charge, which is why I changed Melee attack to a Simple Action.
I have no problem with the activities that you list taking longer because movement has a cost. I also include two Free Action movement options, so depending on how far the guard needs to move, he can still do many of the activities you list.
1: Encourage players to prioritize more passes more than the base game already does. Whoever has the most passes wins, because they suddenly have half as many actions.
I disagree. The game already rewards multiple passes very heavily. After the first Combat Round, a character with 3 passes will get to go twice before characters with a lesser number passes can even react. They get to go during the third IP in Round 1 and first in the first IP of Round 2.
The rest of your statement is highly situational. Characters in a defensive position do not need to move, so they will not have to spend actions moving while an attacker trying to close in on the position will have to spend actions moving.
2: Make combat less interesting, since so much of it is now spent not actually participating.
We'll have to agree to disagree on our definitions of "interesting" and "participating". I play a ton of different miniature games and maneuvering to get into position is where a lot of the fun lies. It also encourages more coordination between team members as it is not easy to correct mistakes.
3: Reduce options in positioning. You may not realize it, but you are discouraging your players from ever moving less than their full movement rate, because it now makes them feel like they're wasting actions.
I disagree with your assessment. I feel that is adds in more choices to make.
Let's say the Agility 4 player wants to take cover behind a wall that's 12 meters away.
For a game that is about combat in labs, office buildings, back alleyways, warehouse, and sewers, 12 meters is an awful long distance.
One simple action only gets him 8 meters, and now he has to decide whether he wants to use his second simple and waste 4 meters worth of movement, and then be unable to take cover when he gets there anyway because he's out of actions, or if he's going to take a chance rolling Run and trying to get 2 hits. If he fucks up, he doesn't even get to the wall at all.
Oh noos! The player needs to make a tough decision! Maybe he shouldn't have been caught 12 meter away from cover. Again 12 meters is a figgin' long distance in most environs where shadowruns take place.
You've now given your player an annoying choice that wouldn't even be an issue in the normal game, as he'd run the distance, take cover, and still have a spare action to do something else.
I don't see it as an annoying choice. I see it has the player making a mistake earlier and paying the price to rectify it.
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Sorry, but that list isn't proof. It is a series of activities and not actions. A better example would have been Charge, which is why I changed Melee attack to a Simple Action.
You didn't ask for "proof" of something. You asked for examples of things that your proposed system breaks. Ryo gave you a list of several common activities in combat that normally take two simple actions or one complex action to complete. Because of your suggestions, movement takes up one of those actions - which reduces the number of tactical options by half.
I have no problem with the activities that you list taking longer because movement has a cost. I also include two Free Action movement options, so depending on how far the guard needs to move, he can still do many of the activities you list.
Therein lies the problem - you are slowing down combat and removing some of the tactical aspects of Shadowrun's current system in favor of a whole new system. This is why I suggested just going with a pool of action points that you can use instead. 2m = 1 AP for humans, elves, and orks. 1m = 1 AP for trolls and dwarves. Or make it all 2m = 1 AP, but then trolls and dwarves suffer a lower rate of speed when running. Something like that. Simple actions would take X points, Complex actions take Y points, and Free actions take Z points. Have the pool calculated based on Agility, Reaction, and Intuition - maybe the sum of the three attributes. Or make a player roll for it, like Initiative. There are a LOT of systems that could work, and don't change the fundamentals of the game's combat.
I disagree. The game already rewards multiple passes very heavily. After the first Combat Round, a character with 3 passes will get to go twice before characters with a lesser number passes can even react. They get to go during the third IP in Round 1 and first in the first IP of Round 2.
Not correct. By the standard system of Initiative, everyone with 1 Initiative Pass gets to act. Then everyone with 2 Initiative Passes gets to act, then 3, then (rarely) 4 or even 5. So everyone gets to do something before the speedy guy gets to go again.
I play a ton of different miniature games and maneuvering to get into position is where a lot of the fun lies. It also encourages more coordination between team members as it is not easy to correct mistakes.
I can agree with this sentiment. Shadowrun has the potential to be a very tactical game. After all, it was developed by the same people who developed BattleTech. But your system slows combat down to a crawl, keeping people from being able to perform basic maneuvers in most cases.
3: Reduce options in positioning. You may not realize it, but you are discouraging your players from ever moving less than their full movement rate, because it now makes them feel like they're wasting actions.
I disagree with your assessment. I feel that is adds in more choices to make.
What sort of options do you get with your system, that you don't get with the current system? You asked for a list of things that your system breaks, Ryo gave it to you. Turnabout is fair play.
Let's say the Agility 4 player wants to take cover behind a wall that's 12 meters away.
For a game that is about combat in labs, office buildings, back alleyways, warehouse, and sewers, 12 meters is an awful long distance.
*snip*
I don't see it as an annoying choice. I see it has the player making a mistake earlier and paying the price to rectify it.
Yes, a player has made a tactical error. Unfortunately, with your system it will take them 9 seconds to get to that wall.
I dunno about you, but I'm a fat lazy SOB, and I can cover 12 meters way faster than 9 seconds, especially if I'm getting shot at. If you made your combat turns take less time, then it might be realistic. But you're not pacing this in your head by time. You're pacing it by turns, which is very normal for wargaming miniatures. Nothing wrong with it, but it's not exactly the kind of thing that plays out correctly in a story-telling game, where seconds could be the difference between success and failure.
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Therein lies the problem - you are slowing down combat and removing some of the tactical aspects of Shadowrun's current system in favor of a whole new system. This is why I suggested just going with a pool of action points that you can use instead. 2m = 1 AP for humans, elves, and orks. 1m = 1 AP for trolls and dwarves. Or make it all 2m = 1 AP, but then trolls and dwarves suffer a lower rate of speed when running. Something like that. Simple actions would take X points, Complex actions take Y points, and Free actions take Z points. Have the pool calculated based on Agility, Reaction, and Intuition - maybe the sum of the three attributes. Or make a player roll for it, like Initiative. There are a LOT of systems that could work, and don't change the fundamentals of the game's combat.
Umm... Wouldn't Trolls get 4m = 1 AP? Seeing as how they are like 3 meters tall... Or am I missing something?
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Not sure how getting 2 melee attacks per IP isn't wayyy more unbalanced than what your PC was doing (which is what a melee PC has to do, and it's not like it's without it's trade-offs), but why not post this in the SR5 houserules section? You didn't ask for input, you don't seem to be at all open to input, what's the point of this thread?
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Umm... Wouldn't Trolls get 4m = 1 AP? Seeing as how they are like 3 meters tall... Or am I missing something?
By the default SR rules, trolls and dwarves get less movement than humans, elves, or orks. Page 162 indicates that the walking and running rates are identical, but when sprinting, trolls and dwarves get 1m per hit, while the other metatypes get 2m per hit.
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(quick note: I'm replying to the messages since my last one in reverse order.)
Not sure how getting 2 melee attacks per IP isn't wayyy more unbalanced than what your PC was doing (which is what a melee PC has to do, and it's not like it's without it's trade-offs),
Where are you getting 2 melee attacks per IP? The rules only allow 1 attack roll per IP regardless of source.
but why not post this in the SR5 houserules section?
There isn't a house rules forum. There is a single thread, which is a terrible way to discuss things.
You didn't ask for input,
This is the internet. Simply posting it on a message board is asking for input. If I didn't want input, I'd post it on my web site.
you don't seem to be at all open to input, what's the point of this thread?
I'm open to input, but so far the input basically boils down to: "it doesn't duplicated the results of the current game system" and I'm ok with that. SR has been through so many rule changes over the years that I don't feel beholden to try an duplicate the current system's results.
In the past I've run SR2, SR3, and SR4. I've been running SR5 since it was released in PDF form. The point is, I didn't just pick up the rules and decided that I needed to make them more like Pathfinder. I have played SR5 as is for about a year now. I don't like the movement system and I've given considerable thought how to change it.
Now, if someone points out where my rules actually breaks something in the system, I'll tweak my rules. However, so far the criticisms have boiled down to green/purple preferences and differences of opinion.
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Now, if someone points out where my rules actually breaks something in the system, I'll tweak my rules. However, so far the criticisms have boiled down to green/purple preferences and differences of opinion.
I pointed out to you that your system makes it so that someone who wants to traverse 12 meters in a normal pace takes 3 Combat Turns. I (and others) have pointed out to you that your system only allows for the following options: movement + action, action + action, charging. Those break things.
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And I've pointed out it actually works just fine. It's not at all broken. I think what you mean is it's not what you are used to. This system works great in DnD, without being broken. And I've used it in Shadowrun, without complaint. To some of us it makes a LOT more sense than the current system. What it comes down to is this method is not what you are used to, it conflicts with your understanding of SR physics. And that's fine. But don't claim it's broken.
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Sorry, but that list isn't proof. It is a series of activities and not actions. A better example would have been Charge, which is why I changed Melee attack to a Simple Action.
You didn't ask for "proof" of something. You asked for examples of things that your proposed system breaks.
Ryo stated all the other actions in the book are balanced around the idea that you can move at will.
I asked for examples of this. None were provided. Ryo listed activities that might take longer that a single IP, none of which were actions in the book.
I have no problem with the activities that you list taking longer because movement has a cost. I also include two Free Action movement options, so depending on how far the guard needs to move, he can still do many of the activities you list.
Therein lies the problem - you are slowing down combat and removing some of the tactical aspects of Shadowrun's current system in favor of a whole new system. This is why I suggested just going with a pool of action points that you can use instead.
So fitting movement into the existing system of Free/Simple/Complex actions is a "whole new system" whereas changing to a pure AP system isn't?
Also, I disagree with the assertion that combat is slowing down and that tactical options are being removed. I would argue that the pace of combat is being increased as number of decisions per IP is being decreased. As the pace of combat increases, the situation becomes more dynamic, thus leading to more tactical choices.
There are a LOT of systems that could work, and don't change the fundamentals of the game's combat.
It is a game that has seen many changes over the years. It was a far bigger change when the rules for Melee combat were changed to only the attacker doing damage instead of the winner of the opposed roll. Movement rules have also changed over the years. In earlier editions, it was proportionally spread across the initiative passes. Now characters can take all of their movement for the entire Combat Round in a single IP.
I disagree. The game already rewards multiple passes very heavily. After the first Combat Round, a character with 3 passes will get to go twice before characters with a lesser number passes can even react. They get to go during the third IP in Round 1 and first in the first IP of Round 2.
Not correct. By the standard system of Initiative, everyone with 1 Initiative Pass gets to act. Then everyone with 2 Initiative Passes gets to act, then 3, then (rarely) 4 or even 5. So everyone gets to do something before the speedy guy gets to go again.
You read my example incorrectly. I'm talking about across multiple Combat Rounds.
Lets have three characters A, B, and C. A initiative is 23, B is 13, and C is 3
Across two rounds the IP look like this:
IP 1 IP 2 IP 3
Round 1 A,B,C A,B A
Round 2 A,B,C A,B A
If you translate this to a stream, it looks like this: A,B,C,A,B,A,A,B,C,A,B,A
Where player A is shown in Bold is where he acts twice in a row.
I can agree with this sentiment. Shadowrun has the potential to be a very tactical game. After all, it was developed by the same people who developed BattleTech. But your system slows combat down to a crawl, keeping people from being able to perform basic maneuvers in most cases.
I disagree. But, I suppose it depends on your definition of "basic" maneuver.
What sort of options do you get with your system, that you don't get with the current system?
The benefits of my system is that it forces trade-offs.
If you are going to do a rear guard actions, you don't get to run away at full speed.
If you want to ambush a party, you don't need anime style exageration of distances to catch them in the open.
If you want to keep the security guard too busy to sound the alarm, force him to keep moving and ducking.
Yes, a player has made a tactical error. Unfortunately, with your system it will take them 9 seconds to get to that wall.
Where are you getting 9 seconds? In Ryo's example, the character has Agility 4. It would take the character, at most, 2 IP to get behind the wall and take cover.
I explictly stated earlier that characters can spend multiple Simple actions on movement in a single IP.
If you made your combat turns take less time, then it might be realistic.
Really? Realistic? Go watch some speed loading videos on youtube. Here's one to get you started: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Vnwg_kRRkM. It takes a guy in a perfectly quiet situation 1-2 seconds to reload his firearm while standing still. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eatP2CRiEkU is a SWAT competition. Watch how long it takes them to run about 4 meters, shoot at targets, and reload. Again, it is in a quiet situation where they are not be shot at nor trying to keep up "combat awareness".
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I pointed out to you that your system makes it so that someone who wants to traverse 12 meters in a normal pace takes 3 Combat Turns. I (and others) have pointed out to you that your system only allows for the following options: movement + action, action + action, charging. Those break things.
Your continued instance that it takes 3 Combat Turns to move 12 meters shows that you don't understand the changes.
Some of the allowed combinations per IP pass:
1) Simple Action + Move + Step
2) Simple Action + Move + Run
3) Move + Move + Step
4) Move + Move + Run
5) Complex Action + Step
6) Complex Action + Run
If a character had 3 Agility, the above translates into
1) Simple Action + move 7 meters
2) Simple Action + move 6 meters + 2m/Hit on Run test
3) move 13 meters
4) move 12 meters + 2m/Hit on Run test
5) Complex Action + move 1 meter
6) Complex Action + 2m/Hit on Run test
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Where are you getting 2 melee attacks per IP? The rules only allow 1 attack roll per IP regardless of source.
I still play 4th, so chalk it up to my ignorance.
I'm open to input, but so far the input basically boils down to: "it doesn't duplicated the results of the current game system" and I'm ok with that. SR has been through so many rule changes over the years that I don't feel beholden to try an duplicate the current system's results.
In the past I've run SR2, SR3, and SR4. I've been running SR5 since it was released in PDF form. The point is, I didn't just pick up the rules and decided that I needed to make them more like Pathfinder. I have played SR5 as is for about a year now. I don't like the movement system and I've given considerable thought how to change it.
Now, if someone points out where my rules actually breaks something in the system, I'll tweak my rules. However, so far the criticisms have boiled down to green/purple preferences and differences of opinion.
I think you're interpreting the input wrong, I think the resistance is; "You're trying to fix something that isn't broken."
If you can't figure out how your Melee Ads tactic has it's weaknesses, that's not a rules problem, that's a GM problem.
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I think you're interpreting the input wrong, I think the resistance is; "You're trying to fix something that isn't broken."
I don't recall saying that the current system is broken. Mechanically, the current system isn't broken. I just don't like the results that it gives or the overhead it creates in keeping track of how far all of my NPCs have moved.
Some people like how the system works and that is fine. I don't, so I changed it. I'm fairly certain that I didn't break another part of the rules with my changes and so far nobody has pointed out a rule that no longer works.
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I probably shouldn't venture into this area as again I still play 4E, but assuming 5 still has modifiers for moving while attacking/defending, have you not eliminated those with your changes?
i.e. there can be no penalty to moving and firing in the same round (as it's no longer moving while firing, it's firing then moving), and no bonus for moving while defending (see the former critique)? That may not be broken per se, but I personally love implementing modifiers for movement. In fact it's often a crucial factor to making combat more challenging for my PCs.
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I probably shouldn't venture into this area as again I still play 4E, but assuming 5 still has modifiers for moving while attacking/defending, have you not eliminated those with your changes?
The only mods in SR5 for movement involve running, which I've kept.
As characters need to declare actions at the start of their action phase, they have to declare if they are taking the Running Free action, which places them in to the Run mode until their next IP.
There is an optional rule in Run & Gun which base modifiers on how far a character moves; however, I haven't studied them to see how they would interact with my system.
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Some of the allowed combinations per IP pass:
1) Simple Action + Move + Step
2) Simple Action + Move + Run
With movement being resolved independently of "acting" as shown, it seems like one could use their Walk move to get out from behind complete cover, take a shot, then use the Step or Run free action to get back to complete cover. How is that not broken? The target has no chance at a reciprocating action. Or am I interpreting something in your outline wrong? In Pathfinder, you can't take a 5' step (here your Step or Run) in the same round as any other movement for this very reason - it's a broke mechanic.
I dunno, regardless, seems like you've taken something very simple and made it more complex, for no net gain at all. Just a shuffling of book keeping and some modifications of the rules for modification's sake.
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Look, zekim, I don't know why you can't take criticism. Maybe you weren't loved enough or something - who knows. But don't expect to get a great reaction from me or anyone else when you post something for advice, and then spit in the face of those that disagree with you by using semantics.
Do what you want with your table. Just don't expect me (or many others here) to be sitting at it.
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Ryo stated all the other actions in the book are balanced around the idea that you can move at will.
I asked for examples of this. None were provided. Ryo listed activities that might take longer that a single IP, none of which were actions in the book.
I provided you with examples of things a security guard, who typically only has one pass, could accomplish in a single pass by the standard rules. By your rules, they can accomplish none of them, including basic shit like calling for backup. By your rules, it is very easy for a group of shadowrunners to take out the security team before they mount any response at all, since they only have one pass and your players will have 2 to 4.
Everyone acts on pass 1, and the security team has half as many actions as they should and accomplish very little more than moving into position and maybe taking cover. Then your team proceeds to steam roll them over the next three passes, and they haven't fired a shot or called for backup.
This is what I mean by being balanced around the idea that you can move at will, because you need to do a lot in one pass if your enemy has more passes than you, and the players almost always have the IP advantage over the enemy unless you start handwaving that every rent-a-cop and street ganger is loaded with wired reflexes.
Another example of a tactic I use quite frequently against my players when they're dealing with such grunts:
Run away, take cover, and use Jazz to even the odds. (Move as far from the line of fire as they can, simple action Use Item, simple action Take Cover.)
In addition to the examples I gave before, you've completely removed the possibility of splitting up your movement and taking any actions in-between moving or while moving.
Let's say some McGuffin the players need is in a room, and the security is rolling in fast, and your player says he wants to grab it and run. Standard game, he uses some movement to get to the McGuffin, spends an action to pick it up, then spends the rest of his movement getting as far out of the room as he can up to his maximum run rate, and uses his second action to stow the McGuffin in his pocket or a bag.
By your rules, on the other hand, he spends his first action moving to it (probably wasting a lot of his available movement in the process, if he was only a few meters away), spends his second action picking it up, and now he's standing in the middle of the room, holding the McGuffin in his hands, as the security swarms in and fills him with bullets.
Other things you might want to be able to do while moving: reload your weapon, shoot something, Use any skill (complex action to do so), take a moment to examine the battlefield (simple action to Observe in Detail), so on and so forth.
Let's go back to the skill issue. All skill tests are complex actions, so if your players want to pick a lock, or hack a security system, or make a Leadership roll, or try to Intimidate the enemy, or ANYTHING other than point and shoot, they have to waste a turn getting into position before they can, or stand in the open like a moron to get it done.
You've also made it literally impossible to perform most feats of acrobatics, since its no longer possible to move and use Gymnastics on the same pass.
Also, I disagree with the assertion that combat is slowing down and that tactical options are being removed. I would argue that the pace of combat is being increased as number of decisions per IP is being decreased. As the pace of combat increases, the situation becomes more dynamic, thus leading to more tactical choices.
You effectively took away half the actions people have available by making something that used to be free now require an action. How does limiting mobility and reducing actions increase pace and decrease decisions? You're causing more decisions, since your players are now trying to do the same thing they've always been doing with fewer options available, forcing them to stop and think longer. That's going to slow the game down, no matter how you slice it.
If you made your combat turns take less time, then it might be realistic.
Really? Realistic? Go watch some speed loading videos on youtube. Here's one to get you started: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Vnwg_kRRkM. It takes a guy in a perfectly quiet situation 1-2 seconds to reload his firearm while standing still. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eatP2CRiEkU is a SWAT competition. Watch how long it takes them to run about 4 meters, shoot at targets, and reload. Again, it is in a quiet situation where they are not be shot at nor trying to keep up "combat awareness".
You want to bring video into this? Okay.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzHG-ibZaKM
Try to do that with the standard Shadowrun rules, let alone your variation. Six shots, reload, then six shots in less than three seconds. That'd take three passes and a revolver modified to be capable of Burst Fire.
As for your example of a swat guy taking 1-2 seconds to reload while standing still in the quiet, here's a video of a guy doing the same thing in less than a second.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxzrahUUTi8
I also don't see how changing the way movement works reduces the amount you have to track NPC movement. You're still tracking it, unless you stopped moving them.
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With movement being resolved independently of "acting" as shown, it seems like one could use their Walk move to get out from behind complete cover, take a shot, then use the Step or Run free action to get back to complete cover. How is that not broken? The target has no chance at a reciprocating action.
Technically, a character has to use the "Take Cover" Simple action to receive benefits of cover. What your describing is someone entering and leaving LOS.
This tactic is already possible under the SR5 rules, so if it is broken, it was broken before I made my changes.
(The counter to it is to have the opposing side take delayed actions and then interrupt the character dodging across the hallway)
I dunno, regardless, seems like you've taken something very simple and made it more complex, for no net gain at all. Just a shuffling of book keeping and some modifications of the rules for modification's sake.
I have found the movement rules to be cumbersome in execution. When my players face 10-20 NPCs in battle keeping track of how far each NPC has moved and when they transition from "Walking" to "Running" has not been enjoyable for me. With my modifications, I don't have to remember how far each NPC has moved in the current combat round.
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Look, zekim, I don't know why you can't take criticism. Maybe you weren't loved enough or something - who knows. But don't expect to get a great reaction from me or anyone else when you post something for advice, and then spit in the face of those that disagree with you by using semantics.
Thank you for your time and for being civil for as long as you did.
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I provided you with examples of things a security guard, who typically only has one pass, could accomplish in a single pass by the standard rules. By your rules, they can accomplish none of them, including basic shit like calling for backup. By your rules, it is very easy for a group of shadowrunners to take out the security team before they mount any response at all, since they only have one pass and your players will have 2 to 4.
Nothing in my rules prevents guards from calling for backup. They just can't run several meters, jump behind a desk and call for backup in one IP.
Everyone acts on pass 1, and the security team has half as many actions as they should and accomplish very little more than moving into position and maybe taking cover. Then your team proceeds to steam roll them over the next three passes, and they haven't fired a shot or called for backup.
Well, they only act on pass 1 if they are not surprised and are suffering that -10 to initiative. They also only get to act on pass 1 if they are still alive. Given in your example that the SR team has 2 to 4 passes, it also means that they rolled a much higher initiative than the security team and will be going first.
This is what I mean by being balanced around the idea that you can move at will, because you need to do a lot in one pass if your enemy has more passes than you, and the players almost always have the IP advantage over the enemy unless you start handwaving that every rent-a-cop and street ganger is loaded with wired reflexes.
An interesting point. Don't know if I agree with it, but something to ponder.
In addition to the examples I gave before, you've completely removed the possibility of splitting up your movement and taking any actions in-between moving or while moving.
I've played plenty of other game systems where this is the case and it has never impacted playability of the game.
Other things you might want to be able to do while moving: reload your weapon, shoot something, Use any skill (complex action to do so), take a moment to examine the battlefield (simple action to Observe in Detail), so on and so forth.
Nothing preventing it. Players simply don't move as far.
Let's go back to the skill issue. All skill tests are complex actions, so if your players want to pick a lock, or hack a security system, or make a Leadership roll, or try to Intimidate the enemy, or ANYTHING other than point and shoot, they have to waste a turn getting into position before they can, or stand in the open like a moron to get it done.
Hey! Finally, something good to ponder! Some of those actions (like lock picking), I don't have a problem with the player needing to waste an IP moving into position. I'll have to examine some of other skills, like Leadership to see if making it a simple action is appropriate.
You've also made it literally impossible to perform most feats of acrobatics, since its no longer possible to move and use Gymnastics on the same pass.
I partially disagree. Climbing doesn't require character to spend a walk action; neither does repelling. Jumping is a tricky one. Technically all a character has to do is spend a free action to Run and then a Complex action to Jump. Will ponder this one later.
You want to bring video into this? Okay.
My point with the videos is that SR combat rounds are already too short. Things take longer in the real world. The notion that the average security guard can run 12 meters while shooting and reloading his weapon in a combat situation is silly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzHG-ibZaKM
Try to do that with the standard Shadowrun rules, let alone your variation. Six shots, reload, then six shots in less than three seconds. That'd take three passes and a revolver modified to be capable of Burst Fire.
Considering that he didn't move. I fail to see the relevance.
As for your example of a swat guy taking 1-2 seconds to reload while standing still in the quiet, here's a video of a guy doing the same thing in less than a second.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxzrahUUTi8
Considering that he didn't move. I fail to see the relevance.
I also don't see how changing the way movement works reduces the amount you have to track NPC movement. You're still tracking it, unless you stopped moving them.
I don't need to track that NPC A moved 3 meters, NPC B moved 5 meters, NPC C moved 3 meters, NPC D moved 10 meters, etc... Once their movement is complete for the IP, I don't need to worry about how far they have moved, only if they were running or not.
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I'm not talking about dashing across a hall, but that's alright, that's not important.
The important thing is for anyone who stumbles across this thread to know that this is a complication of movement rules with no actual benefit to gameplay (indeed it has the compound detriments of not being able to be referenced, requiring reconfiguration of other rules and likely requiring more table-time to reconcile due to the more "moving parts").
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Nothing in my rules prevents guards from calling for backup. They just can't run several meters, jump behind a desk and call for backup in one IP.
And why can't they? Why is the ability to do that so unreasonable to you?
Well, they only act on pass 1 if they are not surprised and are suffering that -10 to initiative. They also only get to act on pass 1 if they are still alive. Given in your example that the SR team has 2 to 4 passes, it also means that they rolled a much higher initiative than the security team and will be going first.
I assume you aren't putting them up against a force that literally only takes one pass to defeat. And you apparently regularly use 20 dudes, so I think I'm correct in that assumption. The guards will get to do at least one meaningful action by normal rules. By yours the only way they can is if they either don't move, standing in the open to get shot, or they started in bunkered positions.
I've played plenty of other game systems where this is the case and it has never impacted playability of the game.
Because those systems are designed for it. Shadowrun wasn't.
Nothing preventing it. Players simply don't move as far.
They either act first then move, or move then act. By your rules, they can't do it while moving, which is what I said. and they don't move at all to reload, since every weapon requires a complex or two simple actions to reload, nor can they move at all to use skills (also a complex action). They also might want to see what they're doing (Simple action) before they start shooting (simple action) after moving into a room (normally not an action) unless you don't enforce the Observe in Detail rule.
Hey! Finally, something good to ponder! Some of those actions (like lock picking), I don't have a problem with the player needing to waste an IP moving into position. I'll have to examine some of other skills, like Leadership to see if making it a simple action is appropriate.
Well at least you're admitting they're wasting IP, but I guess nothing I say will change your mind if you don't care that you're screwing with the action economy and making everything take more turns than it should.
I partially disagree. Climbing doesn't require character to spend a walk action; neither does repelling. Jumping is a tricky one. Technically all a character has to do is spend a free action to Run and then a Complex action to Jump. Will ponder this one later.
It does if they aren't already standing directly in front of the thing they want to climb up or repel down. Player moves to wall, then uses a Complex action to climb it. But by your rules, they have to spend an action to move to the wall, then wait a turn before they can start climbing. Jumping is also made more complicated, since they're either moving to the edge of the gap, stopping, waiting a turn and then hopping over, or they move close to it, stop, wait a turn, then roll for run and hope they get enough hits to reach the gap in order to jump it.
My point with the videos is that SR combat rounds are already too short. Things take longer in the real world. The notion that the average security guard can run 12 meters while shooting and reloading his weapon in a combat situation is silly.
You underestimate how fast people can do things. Also, the average security guard can't run 12 meters while shooting and reloading his weapon, since reloading is either a complex action or two simples. He'd need more than one pass to do that, which inherently makes him not average.
In addition to that, the examples you gave are pretty misleading. If I were to describe what those guys are doing in game turns, it'd be Sprinting into position (Complex Action), Readying their weapon (Simple Action), Aiming (Simple Action), and then firing (multiple Simples, or Complex action for bursts.) That's multiple passes, if not multiple combat turns.
And even if you were right, shadowrun ascribes to a cinematic form of combat, where you can run across a wall while spraying bullets from two SMGs without breaking stride. The cinematic quality is significantly diminished, if not completely abolished, by the stilted movement system you want to implement.
Considering that he didn't move. I fail to see the relevance.
Do you really think either one would be significantly slowed down by doing it on the move? Their accuracy would suffer, sure, but that's what penalties for moving are for.
I don't need to track that NPC A moved 3 meters, NPC B moved 5 meters, NPC C moved 3 meters, NPC D moved 10 meters, etc... Once their movement is complete for the IP, I don't need to worry about how far they have moved, only if they were running or not.
If that is seriously your entire gripe with the current movement system, you need to work on your book keeping skills. I don't know how you manage to keep track of things like damage taken, ammo used, or the various environmental modifiers if you can't even keep track of how far you moved a miniature.
There's also a significantly better way to handle that problem: Take the highest IP in the combat, and divide the movement rates by that number. That's the maximum movement everyone gets per IP.
So if one of your player can hit 3 IP, take your Agility 3 Security guard's movement rate of 6/12 and divide it by 3. He can move 2 meters per IP, 4 if he runs. Apply the same rule to your players and you even manage to avoid that dashing adept you apparently hate so much.
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Nothing in my rules prevents guards from calling for backup. They just can't run several meters, jump behind a desk and call for backup in one IP.
And why can't they? Why is the ability to do that so unreasonable to you?
Because I find it unreasonable that a guard caught unaware is able to assess the situation, run several meters, and call for backup within a second or two.
I also don't play in huge open areas where guards have to run meters to get to cover. In most locations, there is often cover within a meter or two of the guards. (In real life, I spend lots of time in a lot of different corporate office, labs, and industrial manufacturing areas. I make careful note of how things are laid out in real life and apply it to Shadowrun. Heck in my home office, there are exactly 2 locations that are farther than 1 meter from potential cover)
Well, they only act on pass 1 if they are not surprised and are suffering that -10 to initiative. They also only get to act on pass 1 if they are still alive. Given in your example that the SR team has 2 to 4 passes, it also means that they rolled a much higher initiative than the security team and will be going first.
I assume you aren't putting them up against a force that literally only takes one pass to defeat. And you apparently regularly use 20 dudes, so I think I'm correct in that assumption. The guards will get to do at least one meaningful action by normal rules. By yours the only way they can is if they either don't move, standing in the open to get shot, or they started in bunkered positions.
My opposition depends on the situation. Busting into a gang's hideout? Yeah, there are going to be 20 dudes. Facing a HTR, 10-12 is the usual number of opponents (I have 6 players). A roving security patrol at a corp that isn't on alert is usually 2-3 guys.
So a team of 6 Shadowrunners can easily take out 2-3 guys that are surprised before they can react.
They either act first then move, or move then act. By your rules, they can't do it while moving, which is what I said. and they don't move at all to reload, since every weapon requires a complex or two simple actions to reload, nor can they move at all to use skills (also a complex action).
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And even if you were right, shadowrun ascribes to a cinematic form of combat, where you can run across a wall while spraying bullets from two SMGs without breaking stride. The cinematic quality is significantly diminished, if not completely abolished, by the stilted movement system you want to implement.
If you want to Pink Mohawk it, sure. I prefer my shadows a bit more gritty.
Considering that he didn't move. I fail to see the relevance.
Do you really think either one would be significantly slowed down by doing it on the move? Their accuracy would suffer, sure, but that's what penalties for moving are for.
Yes. Moving in a combat situation is vastly different than doing something on a controlled firing range. The stress involved can serious impact fine motor coordination. That is why professional have live fire exercises, so they train their bodies to react to the stress.
I don't need to track that NPC A moved 3 meters, NPC B moved 5 meters, NPC C moved 3 meters, NPC D moved 10 meters, etc... Once their movement is complete for the IP, I don't need to worry about how far they have moved, only if they were running or not.
If that is seriously your entire gripe with the current movement system, you need to work on your book keeping skills.
It is not my only gripe. I really don't want to go into detail about why I dislike the current system as it is mainly a matter of taste and opinion.
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While I appreciate the folks that have taken the time to discuss my changes, I feel that something keeps being forgotten:
I. Don't. Like. The. Current. Movement. Rules
Seriously, I've been running SR5 without mods for about a year. I like most stuff about the system except the movement rules. They do not give the results that I want and I don't like the overhead they add to the game. There is absolutely nothing that folks can say to make me like the rules. I've already given them a fair shake and found them not to my liking.
Pointing out that my rules give different results than the original rules is not necessarily an argument against them as it is often the result that I wanted in the first place!
Shadowrun is a game. It is not a model of objective reality (unless you live in a world of Elves and Dragons, in which case, please up your medication). There isn't any one true way to play the game. The setting is adaptive enough to encompass a wide variety of play styles.
I want to adapt the movement rules to be more inline with how I view the Shadowrun universe. If you don't like the rule mods, that is fine. Your not playing at my table, nor am I playing at yours. Will I like my rules better than the original rules? Will they give me the results that I want? I don't know. Ask me a year from now after I have had a change to give them a rigorous testing.
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Because I find it unreasonable that a guard caught unaware is able to assess the situation, run several meters, and call for backup within a second or two.
A guard caught unaware can't do that by the normal rules either. They'd be surprised, lose 10 initiative, and probably don't get to act that turn at all because they probably don't have more than 10 initiative. Then if they're miraculously not dead yet, they'd be able to start running, assess the situation (Observe in Detail simple action), and then call for backup when they realize shit is hitting the fan (Send Message simple action.) They might add dropping prone (free action) behind some cover to try and break sight lines, since they lack the Simple Action to actually take cover.
By your rules, after they miraculously survive the first combat turn, they're still too dumbfounded for another 3 seconds to work their feet, eyes and mouth at the same time to run away, check what's going on, and call for backup. This gives your team another full combat turn to pick them off.
I also don't play in huge open areas where guards have to run meters to get to cover. In most locations, there is often cover within a meter or two of the guards. (In real life, I spend lots of time in a lot of different corporate office, labs, and industrial manufacturing areas. I make careful note of how things are laid out in real life and apply it to Shadowrun. Heck in my home office, there are exactly 2 locations that are farther than 1 meter from potential cover)
If this is true, why are you having issues tracking movement at all? You can basically handwave it because nobody is going to reasonably exceed their maximum movement rate. And how the hell did your adept manage to run 56 meters?
My opposition depends on the situation. Busting into a gang's hideout? Yeah, there are going to be 20 dudes. Facing a HTR, 10-12 is the usual number of opponents (I have 6 players). A roving security patrol at a corp that isn't on alert is usually 2-3 guys.
So a team of 6 Shadowrunners can easily take out 2-3 guys that are surprised before they can react.
Which was already true in the base game, you didn't need to screw with movement to allow them to do that. 2-3 guys that are surprised aren't even likely to get a pass before 6 shadowrunners murder them all. However, with your gang hideout of 20 dudes, your team of 6 shadowrunners could probably murder all of them before they get to put up any meaningful fight too. They're already surprised, so that's basically an entire combat turn down the drain for the opposition, and then they waste a second one trying to run for cover while bullets are flying in their direction, or at least the combo of take cover + ready weapon, if they're within 1 meter of cover. Of course, if everyone in the room is within 1 meter of something to hide behind, I'm betting that's a small room, and your team could just lob some area spells and grenades to very rapidly murder 20 guys before they do much of anything in response.
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Corporate Security doesn't have smartlinks, so you're already upgrade the standard grunts. A smartlink system costs a minimum of 2,200 nuyen per guard. That's a hell of an investment for a rent-a-cop.
Even so, you wouldn't be able to do that while running, since running takes your free action for the round. Plus that'd leave your clip lying on the floor.
If you want to Pink Mohawk it, sure. I prefer my shadows a bit more gritty.
Mirrorshades and Black Trenchcoat is still pretty cinematic.
Yes. Moving in a combat situation is vastly different than doing something on a controlled firing range. The stress involved can serious impact fine motor coordination. That is why professional have live fire exercises, so they train their bodies to react to the stress.
...and you don't think they could train to react to the stress?
It is not my only gripe. I really don't want to go into detail about why I dislike the current system as it is mainly a matter of taste and opinion.
You're needlessly complicating matters and breaking the game trying to fix a system that doesn't need fixing. However, you don't seem to care that you're breaking the game, so I don't know why you're bothering to post this in the forums. You aren't listening to anyone's advice and are stubbornly insisting your rules are better. Feel free to screw with the rules at your own table and subject your players to the problems you're ignoring. If they don't complain I don't see what's stopping you.
While I appreciate the folks that have taken the time to discuss my changes, I feel that something keeps being forgotten:
I. Don't. Like. The. Current. Movement. Rules
Seriously, I've been running SR5 without mods for about a year. I like most stuff about the system except the movement rules. They do not give the results that I want and I don't like the overhead they add to the game. There is absolutely nothing that folks can say to make me like the rules. I've already given them a fair shake and found them not to my liking.
Pointing out that my rules give different results than the original rules is not necessarily an argument against them as it is often the result that I wanted in the first place!
Shadowrun is a game. It is not a model of objective reality (unless you live in a world of Elves and Dragons, in which case, please up your medication). There isn't any one true way to play the game. The setting is adaptive enough to encompass a wide variety of play styles.
I want to adapt the movement rules to be more inline with how I view the Shadowrun universe. If you don't like the rule mods, that is fine. Your not playing at my table, nor am I playing at yours. Will I like my rules better than the original rules? Will they give me the results that I want? I don't know. Ask me a year from now after I have had a change to give them a rigorous testing.
Then seriously, why are you bothering? Just take your ball and go home.
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I. Don't. Like. The. Current. Movement. Rules
Sorry people didn't come and pat you on the head and say "Good job!", don't know what you expected though when you're suggesting changes for something that you yourself admit is not broken, that you can't demonstrate any quantifiable gameplay benefit of (except a dubious claim for it benefiting people who have problems managing double digit numbers), and indeed by your own admission is just an attempt to reconcile some very personal (yet that you're unwilling to specify) dislikes with the present movement rules.
It's obvious (maybe to you too now?) that you never wanted to debate the merits of your changes, it's just too bad you didn't consider that while you may only care about it's potential for braking some mechanic there are other considerations for other people, and like you said this is the internet, so don't go pitching a fit when people want to discuss those too, yeah?
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Pointing out that my rules give different results than the original rules is not necessarily an argument against them as it is often the result that I wanted in the first place!
It seems to me that the results people are pointing out would be better described as "problematic" than merely "different" - at the very least, by pointing them out people seem to be suggesting that to be the case.
And on a side note, these rules remind me of the old joke about not being able to walk and chew bubblegum at the same time.
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If this is true, why are you having issues tracking movement at all? You can basically handwave it because nobody is going to reasonably exceed their maximum movement rate.
I didn't say that they were small areas. They are cluttered areas. Just look at your average cube farm. Lots of cover in a large area. Maybe a better example is the Stuffer Shack found in Food Fight. A fairly large area with lots of cover within a meter or two.
And how the hell did your adept manage to run 56 meters?
He did that at a junk yard. As I explained, he did it across two Combat Rounds. He waited for the last IP of Round 1 and ran 28m (he has Agility 7) toward the opposition. Since his initiative is fairly high, he went before them in the next Combat Round. This allowed him to travel another 28m and wack the dude that was gunning for. (and then I lit him up with the guy's back-up who was out of sight at the start of the combat)
But the same principle applies in a cube farm or industrial factor as SR doesn't have different terrain types that would slow characters down.
Of course, if everyone in the room is within 1 meter of something to hide behind, I'm betting that's a small room, and your team could just lob some area spells and grenades to very rapidly murder 20 guys before they do much of anything in response.
Assuming that the objective is murder or that they are in a small room and not spread out in a large warehouse or that they are surprised...
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Corporate Security doesn't have smartlinks, so you're already upgrade the standard grunts. A smartlink system causes a minimum of 2,200 nuyen per guard. That's a hell of an investment for a rent-a-cop.
Well, you know how it is, a few highly publicized incidents of guards shooting the wrong corp exec and the insurance companies start upping premiums and offering discounts if the security forces are equipped with smartgun links..... some suspect some kickbacks from the various smart system manufacturers...
You're needlessly complicating matters and breaking the game trying to fix a system that doesn't need fixing.
*sigh* I don't know how many different ways that I can explain this. The game isn't broken. I have never claimed that the game is broken. The movement rules are not to my taste. I've given them a fair chance. I don't like them, so I'm changing them.
However, you don't seem to care that you're breaking the game, so I don't know why you're bothering to post this in the forums. You aren't listening to anyone's advice and are stubbornly insisting your rules are better.
The thing is, I'm not hearing any advice. I'm not hearing any suggestions on how to tweak them. All that I'm hearing is how my rules don't give the same results as the original rules. (Which was kind of the whole point.) I am paying attention and with the exception of Skill Use, most of the "complaints" that I have heard have pretty much lined up with my expectations. Some interesting points have been raised that I'm going to ponder further, but nothing game stopping.
Why post them? Well, it generated discussion....
Then seriously, why are you bothering? Just take your ball and go home.
I'm glad that SR has developed a warm, nurturing community where ideas can be discussed in a frank and open manner.
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You don't want your idea discussed. You aren't even saying what your idea is. You just want the movement rules changed for the sake of changing them, as far as you've said, and there is no discussion to be had in 'because I said so' territory.
You post an idea here, we try to explain to you why its a bad idea. Your response is basically 'I don't care.' Okay, discussion over. Why'd you ask us to begin with?
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Sorry people didn't come and pat you on the head and say "Good job!"
Ack! You've exposed me! I'm merely looking for validation on an internet forum to justify me life.
Just kidding.
I was expecting mostly to be ignored. I guess folks are bored today. I wasn't expecting folks to cling so tightly to their preconceived notions of Shadowrun that any deviation needed to be stomped into the ground. Some folks, like Namikaze, couldn't even be bothered to understand the changes before stomping them into the ground.
Most of the discussion today sounded like this:
Me: Here are my changes
Others: But they are Purple!
Me: Good, I like Purple
Others, But they are not Green!
Me: Again, good, I didn't like Green
Others: But Green is the essential color of Shadowrun!
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You don't want your idea discussed. You aren't even saying what your idea is.
My idea is in the very first post.
You post an idea here, we try to explain to you why its a bad idea. Your response is basically 'I don't care.' Okay, discussion over. Why'd you ask us to begin with?
You see, this is the crux of the problem. You are trying to win a Purple/Green debate, which isn't winnable by either side as you have different expectations than I.
RPG systems are simply arbitrary rules that try to model some aspects of "reality". However, there isn't a model shadowrun universe that we can measure the rules against. Heck, look at Shadowrun Returns. It uses a completely different action point system where actions, including movement, cost 1 or more action points.
There isn't anything objective out there that says that a normal human must be able to move several meters, take cover, and call for backup in under 3 seconds when surprised by intruders. Insisting that security guards must be allowed to do so is a preference and not an absolute.
that said, your point about Skill Use was a good one and I will look into it.
PS
Considering that you claim that I never said what my idea was, you did a real good job in deconstructing it ;D
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Your first post wasn't your idea, It was the solution you came up with after having your idea. Your idea is that, for whatever reason, Movement doesn't work. Nobody can help you achieve your idea if you aren't telling anyone what it is. When all you do is make a post saying you plan to replace an entire system in the game, the assumption being made is that you find the original mechanic broken or lacking, and we respond accordingly.
I have no clue what it is you're trying to achieve, and you don't want to tell anybody, so for the third time, I have to ask, why did you bother making this thread?
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I'm glad that SR has developed a warm, nurturing community where ideas can be discussed in a frank and open manner.
This is rich. Wow.
You talk about frank and open discussion, yet you won't (or can't?) specify your problems with the current movement system and refuse to address concerns that don't meet your criteria as a concern? You are being neither frank nor willing to engage in open discussion.
You've exposed me! I'm merely looking for validation on an internet forum to justify me life.
No, you seem to be confused, you've exposed yourself, and you were looking for validation for your movement house rule.
The conversation today was like this:
You: Here are my changes!
Others: Why?
You: Because!
Others: That's not a good reason.
You: I don't care what you say.
Others: But... you asked us?
You: So what?
Others: So... why did you ask us?
You: Because!
Others: Why am I still reading this thread?
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Some folks, like Namikaze, couldn't even be bothered to understand the changes before stomping them into the ground.
Hark, my ears are burning. I was going to stay out of this to be polite, but you summoned me. I read your rules. Did you read mine? I mentioned to you from the onset that I poked about with this idea for a good long while, and never got anywhere with it. I even tried suggesting a system that works almost identically to yours. I was hoping to spare you this frustration and resentment.
The thing is, I'm not hearing any advice. I'm not hearing any suggestions on how to tweak them.
This is proof that you're trolling at this point. I told you my suggestions, and they weren't just "go home." I told you that the only way that a movement system for Shadowrun will work anything like a miniatures game is to create a whole new system. Unfortunately, you aren't interested in hearing any advice or suggestions on how to tweak your rules, or you wouldn't have said this sentence.
Heck, look at Shadowrun Returns. It uses a completely different action point system where actions, including movement, cost 1 or more action points.
If only someone had suggested a system like this....
I've spent the better part of the last 10 years working on simulation design - I know a thing or two about how this kind of thing works. I'm telling you that your idea will not work on a large scale. I also told you that you weren't going to get a lot of appreciation from the rest of the community - and look at that, I was right! I also told you that while this would maybe work at your table, it wouldn't work at all of them - and I can guarantee you that I'm right about that as well.
My advice to you: close this thread, move on. You wanted to share your idea with the community, and the community doesn't like it. Don't engage, just move on.
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So you don't find it at all unreasonable for an average agility 3 human who's high on Jazz to be able to move at 31+ miles per hour? (three initiative passes, two move actions per pass, plus a run action with at least 1 hit. He goes a lot faster with more average hits.)
It is no more unreasonable than a player of mine being able to move 56m and wack someone with a sword before anyone else can react. (Phys Apt with 7 Agility. Turn one, last Initiative Pass, he breaks cover and runs 28m; Turn 2 he wins initiative and runs 28 more meters and does a melee attack Complex action that gains the Charge bonus as he ran into combat)
... 56m? What a frickin' slowpoke. My character sprints an average of 59m in one complex action ...
Look, Zekim, I get that you don't like how the current rules are, because it's tough remembering how far everyone went, their limit is XYZ, yadda yadda. There's a no-issue fix for this - because your problem really isn't that the guy went 56m in 'two actions', considering that you're setting up the same option. (This is just how it works, but don't worry, I have a fix for that too.)
Everyone gets four basic 'movement points' per Turn. Each movement point equates to moving their Agility in meters. They can move less than the full amount if they want, but if they do, that movement point is still used.
- Moving more than 2 points worth per Turn inflicts running penalties on all subsequent actions when the third point is used.
- If the character wants to sprint, they expend a Full Action, get the movement remaining from using all their remaining movement points, and make their Athletics/Running (Sprinting) roll as per the book, adding the appropriate number of meters on.
If you want to make this a cyclical sort of thing, then characters' movement point allowance regenerates at a rate equal to (4 divided by this Turn's initiatve score / 10) per action phase, round down, nstead of every Turn - which means that you can't actually make the Run + Run on immediately-subsequent initiative passes if you're a hyper-fast guy, because you'll have only regenerated 1-2 movement points.
Here's the kicker for this second suggestion: you continue to have Running penalties until you once again possess at least 3 movement points.
This makes movement tracking easy - "Okay, Mook 3 and Mook 5 have used 1 point each, they're still fine, but Mook 4 wants to use another movement point, so he's now Running" - AND does not require you to track precisely how far each mook has run.
Heck, look at Shadowrun Returns. It uses a completely different action point system where actions, including movement, cost 1 or more action points.
If only someone had suggested a system like this....
.... actually, from having just stepped away from the DMZ rules, it sounds like Shadowrun Returns utilizes something very, very similar. Which would make sense - the guys who did SRR also wrote the 1E DMZ rules. Shocking, that, I know. I've all but concluded my DMZ alteration to work with SR5, but I'll note that the DMZ 'reaction fire' really messes with people - reaction fire is definitely the way to go, because it allows you to fire more than once or twice if you're operating against multiple contacts ...
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Wyrm, I am extremely impressed with your movement point idea. This is definitely how the game currently works, and allows for more tactical movement as well (if desired). Excellent work! *bow*
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Looks interesting, but might increase the need for bookkeeping, as you added another resource to the table.
Ryo mentioned it before and it seems to have gone unnoticed, but splitting movement allotment according to the maximum number of initiative passes in the given round only requires calculation once per Combat Turn and no additional bookkeeping.
This makes it again harder for melee types, but on the other prevents the mentioned "double-move" for instant-whacking.
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Looks interesting, but might increase the need for bookkeeping, as you added another resource to the table.
On the contrary, it reduces the need for bookkeeping. Give everyone four of something - coins, little colored Pente pieces, whatever. If they want to move, they 'expend' those for a period of time - every Turn, whatever. And for each (Agility)m or fraction thereof they want to move, they have to expend 1 'something'. And of course, if they don't have at least two of them, they're defined as Running. Otherwise, you have to keep track of the exact number of meters run, and if you're over Agility x 2, you're running, or Agility x 4 and you have to sprint - but you can use all those meters in one action phase.
Ryo mentioned it before and it seems to have gone unnoticed, but splitting movement allotment according to the maximum number of initiative passes in the given round only requires calculation once per Combat Turn and no additional bookkeeping.
This makes it again harder for melee types, but on the other prevents the mentioned "double-move" for instant-whacking.
Ryo spoke about isolating meters/action phase, yes, which in a way this does as well - or at least, that becomes an option, with due consideration of the 'return of movement points' option. Whether that makes it harder for melee types is something each table will have to decide ...
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If you want to make this a cyclical sort of thing, then characters' movement point allowance regenerates at a rate equal to (4 divided by this Turn's initiatve score / 10) per action phase, round down, nstead of every Turn - which means that you can't actually make the Run + Run on immediately-subsequent initiative passes if you're a hyper-fast guy, because you'll have only regenerated 1-2 movement points.
Can you explain calculation formula in a more detailed way? Maybe give an example? :) I don't actually understand what's "Turn's initiative score".
As for me, I like houserule suggested by FasterN8 somewhere at the forum. All movement is divided into three Initiative Passes notwithstanding how many actual Action Phases characters have. So character with Initiative Score 12 would have Action Phases in IP #1 and IP #2, but he can make his movement in IP #3 as well. Available movement is divided into 3 IPs, remainder floats towards earlier IPs. So character with Agi 4 can walk 8/3 meters (3, 3, and 2) and run 16/3 meters (6, 5, and 5).
In IP #1 he can walk up to 3 meters or run up to 6 meters, in IP #2 he can walk up to 3 meters or run up to 5 meters, in IP #3 he can walk up to 2 meters or run up to 5 meters.
I don't remember how FasterN8 treated sprinting, but I tend to let my players make Complex Action for sprinting at every Action Phase.
The only thing about movement under RAW I don't like is "teleport effect" when melee character runs 16 meters in one IP and attacks a guy who is pointing a gun at him and dully waiting as melee character approaches.
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Can you explain calculation formula in a more detailed way? Maybe give an example? :) I don't actually understand what's "Turn's initiative score".
... errr, since you used 'Initiative score', and since your initiative score is determined (i.e. rolled) every Turn ... I'm not sure where the disconnect is. The 'initiative/10' is how you figure out initiative Passes, though, so if it's easier for you to think in IPs, then you regenerate your movement points in a quantity equal to 4/IPs. So if you have 2 IPs this turn, you regenerate 2 movement points per initiative pass; if you have 3 IPs, then you regenerate 1 movement point per initiative pass, with one of the passes (GM's determination as to which, but I'd say typically the last) regenerating 2. If you can use only 1 initiative pass - whether because you went Full Defense or whatever - then you regenerate 4 MPs every pass.
Savvy?
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I simply took Initiative Score 15 as an example and got 4/15/10=0.02666(6) as a result :)
Now I see you implied 4/(Initiative Score/10, round up).
But won't that hurt character with high Initiative Score?
For instance, Combat Turn 1 is over (all MPs were spent), Combat Turn 2 is about to start. Sammy Heavy-Wired rolls and gets 3 IPs, Mook McSlowman rolls and gets 1 IP. Mook McSlowman regenerates 4 MPs and can make immediate rush for Agi x 4 meters, while Sammy can walk only Agi x 1 in first IP.
Teleport is still on (for Mook).
And what about reducing Initiative Score with wounds and Interrupt Actions? Must regeneration rate be recalculated in this case?
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This is why I like the DnD based movement system. Spend a Simple Action, move your AGL in meters. Running doubles that. Done. Easy. No new calculations needed.
And there is no teleporting, for anyone. Wired Sammie with 3 Action Phases will move a lot more over the course of the round than Mook, but not all at once, and only by spending Simple Actions. Everyone is on equal footing.
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This is why I like the DnD based movement system. Spend a Simple Action, move your AGL in meters. Running doubles that. Done. Easy. No new calculations needed.
And there is no teleporting, for anyone. Wired Sammie with 3 Action Phases will move a lot more over the course of the round than Mook, but not all at once, and only by spending Simple Actions. Everyone is on equal footing.
Yeah that is a much simpler system. I'd like to personally see a separate 'movement action' to fit into the SR rules. But I tried thinking of something like this, and it ended with me wanting to pull my hair out.
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But won't that hurt character with high Initiative Score?
For instance, Combat Turn 1 is over (all MPs were spent), Combat Turn 2 is about to start. Sammy Heavy-Wired rolls and gets 3 IPs, Mook McSlowman rolls and gets 1 IP. Mook McSlowman regenerates 4 MPs and can make immediate rush for Agi x 4 meters, while Sammy can walk only Agi x 1 in first IP.
Teleport is still on (for Mook).
Er, no. I'm actually kind of glad you've been this persistent, because the 'regeneration' process is broken - just in the other direction. Let me explain.
You suggest that as Combat Turn 1 is over; all MPs are spent. This means that everyone was running around, literally. Instead of just saying 'all MPs are spent', and presume that it means that somehow hey, Sammy Lightning is screwed, let us instead reconstruct the action, shall we? By doing this, we'll see how Sammy is actually walking all over the opposition, again literally. Our target, however, is that at the end of the initiative phase, for all MPs to be spent.
Initiative: Mook McSlowman 9, Sammy Lightning 31. With 1 AP, Mr. Mook will regenerate 4 MPs per action pass. Sammy on the other hand, with his 4 APs, will regenerate 1 per action pass.
- IP 1: Sammy Lightning spends 1 MP, moving his Agility in meters, i.e. is walking, to do what he does. Mook McSlowman does what he does, moving his full 4 MPs. Takes the penalties for Running.
- IP 2: Sammy Lightning regenerates 1 MP, spends it right away to move another Agility in meters, and is still walking. Does what he does.
- IP 3: Sammy again regenerates 1 MP, spending it again to move another Agility in meters, and despite having used 3 MP this Turn, still hasn't 'broken a sweat' - he's still in fact walking.
- IP 4: Sammy regenerates yet another MP, back up to 4, and then spends all 4 in order to move 4x Agility in meters. He has, this Turn, actually moved 7x his Agility in meters. Only in this AP does he take Running penalties, since he's always had 3+ APs.
The two then roll off again, Sammy getting 3 IPs this time, the Mookster getting 1 again. Mookster can Run 4x Agility again if he wants, but it really is paltry compared to the 7 x Agility that Sammy just pulled off. Sammy, meanwhile, regenerates 1 MP, and for his first pass, can either move (and continue taking Running penalties) or hold off on moving - but he'll actually still take Running penalties, 'cause he only has 1 MP. (Alternately, the GM can rule that if he stopped, the 'odd' point regenerates now, and he doesn't have to worry about Running penalties until/unless he moves again.)
What would be more proper is for MPs to start regenerating only after the first Turn passes - so that Sammy Lightning starts taking Running Penalties on his third action phase, and for every phase to come, again within which he doesn't have at least 2 MPs left.
So no, I guess, it isn't perfect.
And what about reducing Initiative Score with wounds and Interrupt Actions? Must regeneration rate be recalculated in this case?
I would expect so. Logic certainly suggests it.
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IP 4: Sammy regenerates yet another MP, back up to 4, and then spends all 4 in order to move 4x Agility in meters. He has, this Turn, actually moved 7x his Agility in meters.
Wait, why 4 MPs? He's got to regenerate only 1 MP per AP, hasn't he?
Not concerning regeneration system, just about bookkeeping: hmm, I think I should give my players counters in the beginning of every Combat Turn: two marked with "1", two marked with "2" and two marked with "3". Each couple of counters will represent movement ability in an appropriate IP. PC can spend one counter for walking and two counters for running. At the end of IP #1 all remaining counters marked with "1" are discarded.
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The problem I see, Wyrm, is that you make high initiative even faster in allowing more movement.
Your sammy had 7xAGI instead of the 4xAGI, so if he was an Elf with AGI 11 he would be moving with 25m/s which is 90km/h, without breaking a sweat. Or in other figures, that is more than twice the speed of Usain Bolt :)
To reach this speed in the original system he'd need 28 hits on his 4 sprint tests, spend a Complex and a Free Action each pass and get to resist 1S, 2S and 3S for fatigue.
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Which is what I just pointed out, yes.
A more appropriate regeneration rate would be to regenerate whatever you used in that IP last turn. If you have fewer IPs, at the end of the Turn you regenerate everything used in the later IPs as well. If you have more ... then you don't regenerate anything in that/those last IP(s), do you?
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I'm not sure that this is really helping.
So for 1-pass-guys this doesn't change anything concerning actual rules.
And if one guy doesn't move in IP 1 and IP 2 and then tries to rush in IP 3 using 4 MP, he couldn't move at all in the next turn, if he only get's 2 passes, aside from spending complex actions to sprint.
So your system doesn't prevent teleport-moves and can also be abused in one direction or the other. I wouldn't recommend such a change.
Why don't we just take the AGI x 4 for running rate per turn und AGI x 2 for walking and then divide the movement rates per pass according to the highest number of passes present in the encounter?
This prevents Joe McSlow to teleport-run in his only pass like in SR4, but still allows high-Agility characters to get some mileage out of their investment, despite weakening melee in the process. It wouldn't prevent you from calculating movement rates, but having at least one participant to get 31 initiative actually makes it really easy.
In the end it would prevent more weird cases, so that the effort should pay off.
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I'm not sure that this is really helping.
So for 1-pass-guys this doesn't change anything concerning actual rules.
And if one guy doesn't move in IP 1 and IP 2 and then tries to rush in IP 3 using 4 MP, he couldn't move at all in the next turn, if he only get's 2 passes, aside from spending complex actions to sprint.
So your system doesn't prevent teleport-moves and can also be abused in one direction or the other. I wouldn't recommend such a change.
Why don't we just take the AGI x 4 for running rate per turn und AGI x 2 for walking and then divide the movement rates per pass according to the highest number of passes present in the encounter?
This prevents Joe McSlow to teleport-run in his only pass like in SR4, but still allows high-Agility characters to get some mileage out of their investment, despite weakening melee in the process
At first sight it's a plain solution, but there are some side effects:
1) In those cases when all characters have only one IP, "teleport attack" can still occur (the situations when highest Initiative Score is less than 11 are quite rare though);
2) Highest Initiative Score can decrease during the combat, so you'll have to recalculate movement somehow or distribute remaining movement by IPs left.
That's why system with standardized 3 IPs for movement has its advantages: you don't have to recalculate movement even if the highest Initiative Score was decreased, "teleport attacks" won't happen even when all characters have 1 IP.
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I'm not sure that this is really helping.
So for 1-pass-guys this doesn't change anything concerning actual rules.
And if one guy doesn't move in IP 1 and IP 2 and then tries to rush in IP 3 using 4 MP, he couldn't move at all in the next turn, if he only get's 2 passes, aside from spending complex actions to sprint.
So your system doesn't prevent teleport-moves and can also be abused in one direction or the other. I wouldn't recommend such a change.
Of course nothing changes for the Mook. Otherwise, you are incorrect, sir; perhaps you did not read my latest. Sammy Lightning would regenerate all 4 points prior to his second and last initiative pass, thus enabling him to move 4 points within the combat turn, since for him - this time - Pass 1 consists of the same amount of time taken up by Passes 1 and 2 in the previous Turn, and Pass 2 consists of what was Passes 3 and 4 from last Turn.
The move-point system does prevent 'teleport-moves', and with the 'you regen what you used last Turn on this Phase' regeneration method, it restricts you from moving more than 4x Agility in any one rolling Combat Turn, so it can't really be abused. With this single change, it prevents abuse in every direction, and so it works for me - which was my goal.
Why don't we just take the AGI x 4 for running rate per turn und AGI x 2 for walking and then divide the movement rates per pass according to the highest number of passes present in the encounter?
This prevents Joe McSlow to teleport-run in his only pass like in SR4, but still allows high-Agility characters to get some mileage out of their investment, despite weakening melee in the process. It wouldn't prevent you from calculating movement rates, but having at least one participant to get 31 initiative actually makes it really easy.
In the end it would prevent more weird cases, so that the effort should pay off.
Do what you like. But Joe McSlow needs to always be able to run (4xAGI) per Turn.
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If you regenerate everything from IP3 when not getting a third pass in turn 2, then you get to do a teleport move by doing a maximum run on IP3 in turn 1 and a new maximum run on IP1.
But well, as long as you know how you meant to play it ... maybe I'm just not getting at which point of your later comments you are replacing or adding to your previous house rule.
@Erling
1) But then the whole combat turn takes 3 seconds, and you are allowed to move AGI x 4 meters per 3 seconds without sprinting. You'd have to split the turn into more tiny fractions. And you don't want to do that.
2) If you lose initiative, then you did something which could be interpreted as losing momentum or that others did to you. Might be problematic sometimes, yes. But I'd still prefer it to a system where an increased reaction allows you to walk faster (more passes -> more movement points).
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If you regenerate everything from IP3 when not getting a third pass in turn 2, then you get to do a teleport move by doing a maximum run on IP3 in turn 1 and a new maximum run on IP1.
But well, as long as you know how you meant to play it ... maybe I'm just not getting at which point of your later comments you are replacing or adding to your previous house rule.
Yeah, you're completely not understanding, so let's review.
Normal Sammy Lightning:
Turn 1, rolls a 32 for 4 IPs:- IP1: No Move.
- IP2: No Move.
- IP3: Move 4 MPs. (Running!)
- IP4: No Move; still receives Running penalties.
Turn 2, rolls a 32 for 4 IPs:- IP1: No Move; as did not move in T1/IP1, regenerates nothing. Since he does not have 2+ MPs, takes Running penalties.
- IP2: No Move; as did not move in T1/IP2, regenerates nothing. Since he does not have 2+ MPs, takes Running penalties.
- IP3: Regenerates the 4 MPs used in T1/IP3. Is no longer considered Running unless he moves 3+ MPs.
- IP4: etc.
Sammy 'Lead Magnet' Lightning:
Turn 1, rolls a 32 for 4 IPs:- IP1: No Move. Represents seconds 0.00-0.75.
- IP2: No Move. Represents seconds 0.76-1.50.
- IP3: Move 4 MPs. (Running!) Represents seconds 1.51-2.25.
- IP4: No Move; still receives Running penalties. Gets shot to hell, taking 9 boxes Physical, 9 boxes Stun; total penalties of -6. Represents seconds 2.26-3.00.
Turn 2, rolls crappy to boot, getting 24, but with -6 is an 18 for 2 IPs.- IP1: No Move; represents seconds 0.00-1.50, equivalent to T1/IP1 and T1/IP2. As he did not move in either of those IPs, regenerates nothing. Since he does not have 2+ MPs, takes Running penalties. Somehow manages not to get shot up further.
- IP2: Represents seconds 1.51-3.00, equivalent to T1/IP3 and T1/IP4. Because he used 4 MPs during those two IPs of T1, he regenerates those 4 IPs. Unless he moves, he no longer takes Running penalties - unless he moves 3+ MPs worth right now. Which might not be smart, considering the last time he ran out from under cover.
Initiative Passes are not, after all, set in stone - the entire Turn represents 3 seconds for everyone, no matter how many IPs anyone or everyone gets. Oh, you can use a more accurate representation of 'Sammy Lightning' against Mook McSlowpoke, and Sammy would get 3 IPs before Mook moves once - and one after Mook goes, too - but that can become boring for the McSlowpokes around your table as Sammy cleans up the opposition before they can even draw their weapon, so the baseline rules do it in such a way as to let everyone get into some blasting.
As I've said, this method isn't for everyone - but the core limitation is '4x Agility per Combat Turn'. I've simply enabled you to keep that limitation, 'Combat Turn', aka 3 seconds, as a rolling limitation (4x Agility during ANY 3 seconds) instead of a static one. It's the static one that enables so-called 'teleport attacks'.
On a seperate note - a Postive Quality I created for 3rd, and have carried along through 4th and into 5th:
Fleet of Foot
Cost: 10 Karma.
This character is exceptionally fast on his feet. He receives +2 to his Agility for determining walk and run rates, and +1m per hit when Sprinting.
As a note, it is estimated that the human body's true maximum sprint speed is approximately 40mph - or 65 kph. A person with AGI 9, Fleet of Foot, and 3 hits on a Sprint test could hit that ... or without Fleet of Foot, AGI 11 and 5 successes on the Sprint test.
Further, humans don't have three speeds, 'walk, run, sprint'; we have, loosely, four - insert 'jog' or 'trot' between 'walk' and 'run'. Jogging is equivalent to 3x your AGI, and can be continued for 2-3 times as long as Running. Running endurance lasts ... okay, that one's a little confusing, because it says different things in different places (see my submitted errata), but it essentially should be 10 Turns x (Running + Body), with 20 Turns being 1 minute. Double that for jogging - 20 Turns x (Running + Body). If your Body + Running is, for example, a total of 6, then you could Run for 3 minutes, but jog for 6, until needing to resist Fatigue damage every 10 (Running) or 20 (Jogging) Turns.
Jogging will get you there slower, but you can go further without tiring ...
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@Erling
1) But then the whole combat turn takes 3 seconds, and you are allowed to move AGI x 4 meters per 3 seconds without sprinting. You'd have to split the turn into more tiny fractions. And you don't want to do that.
2) If you lose initiative, then you did something which could be interpreted as losing momentum or that others did to you. Might be problematic sometimes, yes. But I'd still prefer it to a system where an increased reaction allows you to walk faster (more passes -> more movement points).
1) Why not? At least that will reliably prevent teleport charges. Overall movement rate is not affected though. 3-IP system just makes movement more phased.
2) Losing Initiative affecting your own movement would make sense. But changing whole encounter's "movement per IP" degree is a different story. And 3-IPs system doesn't make movement speed dependent on Initiative. Movement speed is determined with Agility only, and Initiative has nothing to do with that as everyone has the same number of IPs to move.
On the other hand, one can simply ignore reducing Initiative Score for the purpose of movement calculation. So if at the beginning of the Combat Turn highest Initiative Score is 11, movement rate will be evenly divided between 2 IPs notwithstanding how dramatically Initiative Score will change after.
"Teleport charge" is still possible, but it's a really rare case when highest Initiative Score is less than 11 at the beginning of the Combat Turn. So normally even a character with Agi 5 will be able to run up to 10 meters per IP (5 x 4 / 2), which is not actually a "teleport". It's still much, and Agi 6+ character will be able to charge from fragging long distances, but at least there's ANY limitation.
Hmm, I'v just re-read my SR3 core rulebook. That's actually what was suggester by SR3 rules (though I'm not sure about Initiative Score decrease and its effect on movement). Also movement rate was calculated in another way, so sammy with Quickness 5(7) could move about 11 meters per IP (with overall 2 IPs in Combat Turn). Damn, I should borrow rules from SR3.
Personally I would prefer "standardized 3 IP" system, but SR3 got it right too.