Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Lusis on <07-05-14/1725:51>
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How many of you guys used these (http://shadowrun35.wikia.com/wiki/Tactical_Computer)in previous editions?
IMHO very cool fluff-wise but overly expensive. I'd love to make a 5e character with one but alas they seem to have gone out of style in the 2070s.
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4th edition was the one that introduced these devices. They functioned very differently though, which justified how cheap they were by comparison. The bonuses you get now are pretty unbalancing, or at least they are potentially very unbalancing. To the point where a team with a level 2 tactical computer will probably wipe the floor with a team that has no tactical computer.
Another big difference is that you only buy the one tactical network. In 4th edition, you had to buy the software for each person, which could make the costs very high on larger teams. Additionally, the level of the software would have to increase for implementing more devices into the network. 5th edition simplifies all of this with a straightforward, simple approach.
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4th edition was the one that introduced these devices. They functioned very differently though, which justified how cheap they were by comparison. The bonuses you get now are pretty unbalancing, or at least they are potentially very unbalancing. To the point where a team with a level 2 tactical computer will probably wipe the floor with a team that has no tactical computer.
Really? How do you figure? I read the new Tac-Net rules in Run and Gun and was completely underwhelmed, and with the absurd price tag, I basically completely discarded them in the pile of things no group would ever bother to get, unless they managed to steal one from the corpses of their enemies.
4th edition Tac-Nets were crazy. Everybody had one and you could get like a +4 bonus to the entire party when they did just about anything. That was way more unbalancing, especially since it was quite affordable.
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Once you get to the rank 2 PI-Tacs, every one of your team members (7 on the network) gets +1 to attacks, +2 to perception, +1 to stealth, automatic dosers of whatever drug you can imagine, a bonus of 2 (or 3, depending on interpretation) to the Firewall and Data Processing of the host device, and the ability to shift around Initiative Points. That's pretty damn powerful. The price is steep, but remember that you only have to buy it once and you aren't buying it based on the device rating. So a team of 7 people in 4th edition had to buy 7 copies of the software, and it had to be at level 4 (12,000¥ per copy). That's 84,000¥ by itself. But you also had to have each team member contribute 8 data channels to the feed. That part is where it got difficult and expensive. Buying all those sensors would be very difficult - that's no longer necessary.
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Once you get to the rank 2 PI-Tacs, every one of your team members (7 on the network) gets +1 to attacks, +2 to perception, +1 to stealth, automatic dosers of whatever drug you can imagine, a bonus of 2 (or 3, depending on interpretation) to the Firewall and Data Processing of the host device, and the ability to shift around Initiative Points. That's pretty damn powerful. The price is steep, but remember that you only have to buy it once and you aren't buying it based on the device rating. So a team of 7 people in 4th edition had to buy 7 copies of the software, and it had to be at level 4 (12,000¥ per copy). That's 84,000¥ by itself. But you also had to have each team member contribute 8 data channels to the feed. That part is where it got difficult and expensive. Buying all those sensors would be very difficult - that's no longer necessary.
The only hard part was sensor channels, and really wasn't that hard. Slap a simrig in your helmet and you've already got 3 channels, 4 if you're not human, since low-light and thermo count as separate channels. Then get glasses or goggles with smartlink, ultrasound, and either low-light, thermo, or both if you don't already have one of them from your simrig, and you're up to 7. You're only 1 sensor channel short of the maximum bonus and you've only got gear that a lot of characters have anyway. (Players love them some alternative vision modes).
As for the cost, it's only 12k per copy of the software. For the maximum bonus of +4, you only need 6 people, which comes out to 72,000 nuyen. Which is only about 445,500 nuyen cheaper than the cheapest 5th edition tacnet, which does nothing except give the entire team +1 to perception. Even if you have a massive team, including a small army of drones, and are achieving all of the sensor channels with expensive separate sensors, you'd be hard pressed to spend anywhere near 517k in 4th edition, let alone 824k or 1.2 million.
Also, you could totally just have a centralized Tac-Net, and have everyone slave their gear to the hacker (which everyone is probably doing anyway in 4th, especially if he's a technomancer.) Then you're only paying 12k for one copy. And if you are a technomancer, you could even thread the complex form for nothing more than a bit of fading.
As for what it actually does, +1 to attacks (4th edition gave +4), +2 to perception (Again, +4), +1 to stealth (+4!), Automatic dosers of drugs (not explicitly allowed in 4th, but totally doable if one of your sensor channels is a biomonitor), Firewall/Data proccessing boost (Not in 4th), ability to shift initiative points (Also not in 4th)
So everything the 5th edition version does, 4th did better at a higher bonus for a cheaper price. The only exceptions are the Firewall/Data Processing boost, and the ability to hand out initiative. Those are interesting, but certainly not unbalancing, and absolutely not worth the six digit asking price.
Tac-Nets in 4th were broken and needed to be nerfed, but 5th just made them too expensive and too restricted to be all that useful. It might as well have been included in a GM only section of the book, because players will never get to use one.
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When I look at the PI-Tacs in Run & Gun, I get the distinct impression that someone at Catalyst hated tac-nets, but couldn't find a good way to retcon them out of existence, so they basically slapped it down and said "You'll never ever get this, but it exists, so shut up and don't ask me to think about this again."
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I feel like getting a PI-Tac as a reward for a particularly challenging run is worthwhile to most runner teams. Bonuses are few and far between in 5th edition, whereas penalties are all over the place. The nuyen price is mostly commensurate with the perceived value, when you get to level 2 and level 3. I do think the civilian model (level 1) should have been MUCH cheaper, especially as the fluff mentions that it sees use by hobbyists and such. The way the price is now, only a professional Urban Brawl team would be able to afford it. That would have given most players at least an entry point into the gear.
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Runs giving out 'bonuses' worth high six figures (some seven)? Sounds like raiding Lofwyr's sock drawer kind of runs. Even if you live long enough to get to the meet and collect your pay, you're probably going to get doublecrossed to silence loose ends. I could see what you're saying, Namikaze, if I couldn't buy a fleet of aircraft (not drones, actual aircraft) for less than the rating 1 PI-Tac.
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Yeah, the price is just insane. Bonuses might be hard to come by, but they're not THAT hard to come by, and most of the dice pool bonuses you can get from the tac-net are easily acquired elsewhere, especially the level 1.
Any player I have come across one of these things, they'd just see the price tag and immediately fence the thing. Even if they just dump it on a contact for a no-questions-asked quick buck, they're looking at a profit of between 25,875 and 155,250 nuyen for a Level 1 PI-Tact, depending on the Loyalty of the contact. If they're hard pressed for that +1 Perception, they can all feel free to pick up some Visual Enhancement glasses at the nearest mall.
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Yeah. What gets me too is that 5th edition's PI-Tacs have a couple "general features" that are almost entirely redundant. It mentions biomonitors, weapon condition and ammo amounts, sharing sensory channels, perception bonuses, and GPS location software.
Aside from GPS locations (which is not terribly necessary and a big double-edged sword if you get hacked), and the fact that you would need to buy basic vision enhancers to get perception bonuses... The rest are already doable without even needing a commlink. Unless the PI-Tac makesno sense you'd assumably need a biomonitor (which can just be wireless and read by your allies), have your weapon set to wireless (which all weapons can do and again can just be shared with allies), and have any sensors or your simrig wireless (which, AGAIN, means you can already share it with whoever you want).
Sucks. I've said it before, but I was really hoping to get to do the TM thing in 5th edition where I program-on-the-fly my own TacNet. Not for any special benefits mechanically, just because then, flavor-wise, it could look however I want and it'd be fun for roleplaying purposes. Like "Firebug, I do not appreciate that your network marks me as the team's 'mojogogo'."
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Yeah I'm more interested in the idea of a tactical "mentat" that can stay one step ahead of his foes, even though he might not be wired or awakened.
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The writer of 5e TacNets mentioned in a podcast that he based the prices off of cyberdecks. Given the long-standing problems of upgrading cyberdecks mid-campaign through normal (ie, non-larcenous) means, it essentially puts them out of reach for most runner teams.
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To me, this is one of those items that a team can plan an entire set of runs to acquire, just like the better cyberdecks ingame issue...
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To me, this is one of those items that a team can plan an entire set of runs to acquire, just like the better cyberdecks ingame issue...
I just don't see why you'd bother. The bonuses are meh for the most part and it's probably easier to make money nicking other items instead of looting corpses of megacorp HTR teams
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The writer of 5e TacNets mentioned in a podcast that he based the prices off of cyberdecks. Given the long-standing problems of upgrading cyberdecks mid-campaign through normal (ie, non-larcenous) means, it essentially puts them out of reach for most runner teams.
That's troubling. Tacnets shouldn't be as available as they were in 4th edition, but they are really unattainable now. I can see making the level 2 and 3 tacnets difficult to acquire, but level 1 should be easy enough that anyone with a decent bankroll can get one.
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The writer of 5e TacNets mentioned in a podcast that he based the prices off of cyberdecks. Given the long-standing problems of upgrading cyberdecks mid-campaign through normal (ie, non-larcenous) means, it essentially puts them out of reach for most runner teams.
That's troubling. Tacnets shouldn't be as available as they were in 4th edition, but they are really unattainable now. I can see making the level 2 and 3 tacnets difficult to acquire, but level 1 should be easy enough that anyone with a decent bankroll can get one.
As I said, it seems someone couldn't think of a good way to retcon tacnets out of existence, so they just made it impossible to get.
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I really don't see why everyone seems to think this is a bad piece of equipment. It might not be the first thing you go for, but it does allow actions and provide bonuses that no other piece of equipment can. Plus, a +6 to firewall and data processing is huge; I think it's worth it for this bonus alone, though, not until you've already maxed out your deck. Granted, this isn't something your average runner team is going to be able to afford, but at 24F and 1.2 million, you're talking about a high end campaign. Could be you've already bought everything you need; would you rather have a long list of small bonuses that might add up to keep you alive or an extra million in the bank? And when your decker is having to face down a rating 12 sprite, would you rather do it with a rating 10 firewall or a rating 16?
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Honestly, a tactical computer in 3rd edition required a huge honkin' outlay of money, because it Did Cool Shit for you, essentially helping you Slaughter Your Enemies Faster. It was a one-person thing, and it required ... well, a shit-ton of cash. I mean, you had to bring in wheelbarrels full of hundred-nuyen bills, and they'd tell you to stop when you were getting close, y'know? Loads.
The Tactical Communications Network in 3rd was useful, yes - but it wasn't fraggin' godlike. It was also expensive To see the tactical comm network go from 'I know which way to lean, and I get some help with my indirect fire' to what it was in 4th was ... more than kind of jarring. So seriously, seeing them put it back in the realm of 'you better have good frickin' funding' is just fine by me.
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The writer of 5e TacNets mentioned in a podcast that he based the prices off of cyberdecks. Given the long-standing problems of upgrading cyberdecks mid-campaign through normal (ie, non-larcenous) means, it essentially puts them out of reach for most runner teams.
That's troubling. Tacnets shouldn't be as available as they were in 4th edition, but they are really unattainable now. I can see making the level 2 and 3 tacnets difficult to acquire, but level 1 should be easy enough that anyone with a decent bankroll can get one.
Just to clarify: He said only the bit about pricing them off of cyberdeck. The second sentence is entirely my own. Given how front-loaded resources generally are in Shadowrun, it makes any 6-figure purchase post-chargen impossible/extremely difficult in most campaigns--certainly in Missions. I don't know if their inaccessibility is intent or not, but that's certainly the effect.
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Given how front-loaded resources generally are in Shadowrun... <snip>
I've often wished that they would do some adjusting so that runners during character creation aren't so "rich", but then it makes magic super OP during character creation, as anyone who has made a character using the "street level" rules has seen.
It's almost as though they just need to just increase the costs of pretty much everything (all gear, armor, weapons, augmentations, magic items, foci, etc.) by about double (but maybe not cyberdecks and Tac-Nets given their insane prices in 5e) and then just recommend to GM's that they increase the average payout per run by about triple. I know that's actually a horrible idea since even though it would fix the front loaded money problems for non-magic users, it would still end up with the "Magic is OP at street level" issue, but, I really do wish there was something that could be done about the ridiculous amount of front loading of resources that is build into character design vs "active" game.
It's been that way for many editions now, imho. And most of the optional rules for things like "street level campaigns" that were meant to indirectly address this problem actually just highlight that there is indeed a problem, and reducing starting cash just makes things worse, albeit in different ways.
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Well, money is front-loaded, because it represents what you invested to become a 'runner. Some people worked out and did their math homework and made friends (Priority A Attributes). Others trained in all the skills they could find a teacher for (Priority A Skills). Those talented magicky people went all-out esoteric and studied that stuff as well as they could (Priority A Magic). Finally, there's the person who managed to get a lot of money, whether by inheritance, loans, thievery, etc (Priority A Cash).
I'm not saying it's right, but that's what it is. My Shadowrun groups have always tweaked the cash payouts to actually be worth running. Our GM uses the Americar Rule. If you can make as much or more money with grand theft auto of normal vehicles, you are stupid to take the risks of 'running.
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I really don't see why everyone seems to think this is a bad piece of equipment. It might not be the first thing you go for, but it does allow actions and provide bonuses that no other piece of equipment can. Plus, a +6 to firewall and data processing is huge; I think it's worth it for this bonus alone, though, not until you've already maxed out your deck. Granted, this isn't something your average runner team is going to be able to afford, but at 24F and 1.2 million, you're talking about a high end campaign. Could be you've already bought everything you need; would you rather have a long list of small bonuses that might add up to keep you alive or an extra million in the bank? And when your decker is having to face down a rating 12 sprite, would you rather do it with a rating 10 firewall or a rating 16?
While your points are valid, you're missing a big one-- You've underestimated that 1.2 million nuyen. That will never happen for a player. Even a "high end campaign" where everyone has what they need already won't have that kind of money unless the GM is just deciding that they don't want money to matter at all. At least for myself and Mirikon, we're mainly talking about the only one that seems even remotely attainable, the Level 1 PI-Tac, which is still crazy expensive.
The level 1 PI-Tac is not worth the price for runners at all. A Level 2 PI-Tac starts to be quite useful, but now it's over eight hundred thousand nuyen.
Let's say the group is gonna work together to make this money. Let's say the team is four people-- A decker, a face, a street samurai, and a mage. The decker says "No way. It's cool, but I already need to save up hundreds of thousands to get a better deck in general and this doesn't help me that much." So he's not willing to put in any money. But the rest are. The Street Samurai figures it's a decent boost to his ability and gives up half his income to a "PI-Tac Fund". The mage and face don't use it as much, but they also don't need money as much, so are gonna be very generous and give up 3/4 of what they make.
We have to assume these are relatively new runners. Maybe they've been running for a year, but they haven't been saving their money for a PI-Tac yet, and so they've improved a bit. Looking at the book, the "really big payday" run is "being foolish enough to accept a job that sends them into the teeth of a Sioux Wildcats lieutenant". Well they're not -that- good yet... But let's still assume they're doing something close. Every job from now on is against enemies with 16 in their highest dice pool (+4) and they will be outnumbered 2-1 by Professional R4 guys (+1). Maybe they're going against the Vory on a regular basis (like once a month) and a very skilled enemy is constantly there somehow.
So they'll make about 15k at base. They have a Face, so let's say he talks it up to 20k every time.
The Samurai gives up half (10K), while the Face and Mage give up 3/4 (30K total). So that's 40K to the fund every run, at the cost of the Face/Mage not getting any augmentations or foci and hampering the samurai. It will take them 21 runs to get this item. In the fund, the Samurai saved up almost enough for someone to have B Resources, the Mage and Face saved up a bit more.
Maybe 21 runs with an average of "everyone give up half their pay and let's do nothing but very difficult runs" isn't so bad. I mean, I'm sure a lot of people would prefer the danger at least.
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No offense, firebug, but why bother putting pretty much anything over, say, 250,000¥ into the game? I mean, going by your theory, it's not like anyone's really going to be able to get one of them, right?
Oh wait - they put them in because not everyone plays the game the same way. Because games ramp up in scale - or are your 200- and 400-karma runners still doing pissant 15k/run jobs?? Because there are things like windfalls, or getting the opportunity to loot someone or something.
I mean, really.
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No offense, firebug, but why bother putting pretty much anything over, say, 250,000¥ into the game? I mean, going by your theory, it's not like anyone's really going to be able to get one of them, right?
Oh wait - they put them in because not everyone plays the game the same way. Because games ramp up in scale - or are your 200- and 400-karma runners still doing pissant 15k/run jobs?? Because there are things like windfalls, or getting the opportunity to loot someone or something.
I mean, really.
No offense taken. I stated I was going off of early characters to get an idea of how long it would be, at the earliest, for a group to get one of these without the GM just finding a reason to give them one. If I started with such high-karma characters, I could say something like "just have them fight a dragon and get paid a deliriously high sum for reasons".
Once you're that 200-400 karma runner team, then yeah, sure, you should be doing Ocean's 11 type stuff every run. But you've already been playing for a long time to get there. I'm not saying you shouldn't have to work to get things... Sigh, I don't know.
As for "windfalls" and "getting the opportunity to loot someone or something"... That is more the GM deciding he wants you to have something, ignoring the price. I mean you could say the same thing about anything that's crazy expensive. "The GM can find a reason to just give you one." Not to mention, just granting the PCs a bunch of money to spend on things can be unbalancing. It'd be like the opposite of a Street Level game in balance, now all the mundane PCs are farther ahead. Maybe that's not as big a problem as it seems, I dunno. Or maybe you give Karma windfalls too and the PCs are just advancing way faster than the rules seem to intend.
But just, why should that seem like the only way you'll get it? Do you understand what I'm trying to say? I feel like if the only way to get something is for the GM to make up a reason (which can be a totally legit reason, not saying it's an ass-pull) to give you one so you can get around paying full price for it, why make it that expensive in the first place? If it's not ever intended to be able to be bought normally, just don't give it a price tag.
It's the same problem deckers have with cyberdecks, and street samurai have with getting upgrades. Am I doing it wrong by following the book's pay suggestions? It's literally the only real guideline I've ever seen about what jobs pay. It seems totally reasonable for me to look at what the game says runners make, then look at what the game says runners pay for stuff, and use that to get an opinion on the price of stuff.
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TBH, that PI-tac R3 is roughly the same as buying a permanent high lifestyle.
If you can afford that, then why are you still running? Just buy the permanent high lifestyle and retire.
Otherwise realistically, you're gonna have to loot this off a HTR team/merc team/dogwagon team and have your decker do some quick ownership changes because there's not really any sensible way of acquiring one with money.
If your GM wants to set up a run where you intercept a shipment of these or steal a prototype or something then great, but it is silly money to be laying out of a player's cash
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TBH, that PI-tac R3 is roughly the same as buying a permanent high lifestyle.
If you can afford that, then why are you still running? Just buy the permanent high lifestyle and retire.
Otherwise realistically, you're gonna have to loot this off a HTR team/merc team/dogwagon team and have your decker do some quick ownership changes because there's not really any sensible way of acquiring one with money.
If your GM wants to set up a run where you intercept a shipment of these or steal a prototype or something then great, but it is silly money to be laying out of a player's cash
They need to bring back the In Debt negative quality; at that level tough, the interest payment is going to kill you, literally. ;)
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Well, for one thing, I've had enough lifestyles burned to ever shell out for a "permanent" lifestyle. As for retiring, this isn't necessarily the goal for every character. To give you an idea of the scale of the game where it was feasible to acquire one of these, the group has played once a week for the last 2.5 years. 13 PCs have died or gone MIA in this span of time and 3 have retired. My character is the only one from the original crew who is still alive and has 530 karma.
When we tried to buy one of these, we couldn't. Instead one of our contacts knew where one was - in a secret military installation monitoring shipping routes off the coast of Salish. We assembled a crew of runners from contacts we'd made over the years, and gave them access to one of our VTOLs; we provided astral back-up and timed the strike to happen during an attack on the local and global grids being executed by an AI. We knew this was going to happen from more of our contacts.
Summary of personal and group assets:
Current personal liquid assets: ~1 million
Value of personal augmentations: .47 million
Value of personal non-liquid assets: .42 million
Percent stake in group assets: 22.53%
Liquid group assets:1.85 million
Electronics group assets: 5.48 million
Vehicle and drone group assets: 6.05 million
Manufacturing assets: .93 million
Monthly rents and salaries: -.2 million
This might be ridiculous to some people, but I'm sure you can infer that this game isn't about getting the next payout anymore. We have goals that we're working to achieve and nuyen is simply a means to an end. Getting that 1.2 million nuyen tactical computer amounts to ~6 months of standard expenses at market value; not exactly unaffordable. And like I said, it gives numerous benefits that there's no other way to replicate, so, for us it would be entirely worth the expense, even if we actually had to pay full price.
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To me, this is one of those items that a team can plan an entire set of runs to acquire, just like the better cyberdecks ingame issue...
This sounds to me like just more acknowledgement that cyberdecks were priced out of PC reach and are yet another element not actually balanced for individual character access like hackers in previous editions - now it's as inaccessible as a tank or helicopter gunship.
I really don't see why everyone seems to think this is a bad piece of equipment. It might not be the first thing you go for, but it does allow actions and provide bonuses that no other piece of equipment can...not until you've already maxed out your deck
Unless the GM is giving handouts, how likely is this to ever happen in less than a year of play? It's like telling a player with a street sam "well, you just need to upgrade your Move By Wire to deltaware and then you'll be good and ready".
The Tactical Communications Network in 3rd was useful, yes - but it wasn't fraggin' godlike. It was also expensive To see the tactical comm network go from 'I know which way to lean, and I get some help with my indirect fire' to what it was in 4th was ... more than kind of jarring. So seriously, seeing them put it back in the realm of 'you better have good frickin' funding' is just fine by me.
I understand the gist of what you're saying, but I think that the TacNet in 5th is almost insultingly out of the realistic reach of individual players (which is what the majority of the game is about). There's not a lot of clear division between build, recommended equipment, and such to help people divide out Street Level and Standard runners (there not being a big problem there) and Standard and Prime Runner levels (with this being a bigger problem because lots of items are decent for quirks of the prime but not even worth considering for standard, even though all of the standard lists are implied to be fore standard). I don't know what the TacNet was in 3rd, but I can agree it did too much for too little in 4E, the solution is not to swing the pendulum too far in the other direction. If you don't want an item in the game then don't port it to the new edition.
As for "windfalls" and "getting the opportunity to loot someone or something"... That is more the GM deciding he wants you to have something, ignoring the price. I mean you could say the same thing about anything that's crazy expensive. "The GM can find a reason to just give you one." Not to mention, just granting the PCs a bunch of money to spend on things can be unbalancing. It'd be like the opposite of a Street Level game in balance, now all the mundane PCs are farther ahead. Maybe that's not as big a problem as it seems, I dunno. Or maybe you give Karma windfalls too and the PCs are just advancing way faster than the rules seem to intend.
I don't know if their inaccessibility is intent or not, but that's certainly the effect.
Emphasis mine. No further comment.
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This sounds to me like just more acknowledgement that cyberdecks were priced out of PC reach and are yet another element not actually balanced for individual character access like hackers in previous editions - now it's as inaccessible as a tank or helicopter gunship.
Unless the GM is giving handouts, how likely is this to ever happen in less than a year of play? It's like telling a player with a street sam "well, you just need to upgrade your Move By Wire to deltaware and then you'll be good and ready".
I understand the gist of what you're saying, but I think that the TacNet in 5th is almost insultingly out of the realistic reach of individual players (which is what the majority of the game is about). There's not a lot of clear division between build, recommended equipment, and such to help people divide out Street Level and Standard runners (there not being a big problem there) and Standard and Prime Runner levels (with this being a bigger problem because lots of items are decent for quirks of the prime but not even worth considering for standard, even though all of the standard lists are implied to be fore standard). I don't know what the TacNet was in 3rd, but I can agree it did too much for too little in 4E, the solution is not to swing the pendulum too far in the other direction. If you don't want an item in the game then don't port it to the new edition.
I'm sorry, Mithlas, but - as I've said, the game is not just for you and your players, y'know? Different characters move at different rates. Different GMs require different playing styles. Different games require different toys, opportunities. Every table is different. Very nearly every item that exists or that has existed in the game is still to be found somewhere in the game, either now or (presumably) eventually; one of the few that I can recall no longer exist are program carriers (which were an interesting idea, and I kind of wished they'd kept them, but hey).
And no, you don't seem to have grasped the gist of what I was saying. The 4e tactical network melded the incredibly expensive tactical computer with the tactical communications network. This is one of the places where 'not having played previous editions' makes you fall down - you have 4E as your baseline benchmark, when in fact it is 4E that's the edition that was severely out of whack with the rest of the editions, and effectively with the history and theme of the world of the game. Tactical computers and communication networks have existed in previous editions; they should exist in this edition. What has happened is that since they melded the two, they now need to balance what was with what is, look at the changes they've made to the game (such as a max of +4 to an attribute, period), and then balance them.
They've done that. You can be upset with it if you want; you can knock a 0 off the price for your table if you want. Go ahead; nobody's gonna stop you. But the equipment is balanced perfectly well with previous editions except for the only one you are used to. Your broken toy (and it WAS broken) went away; sorry. Realize that and you'll play better with the rest of us.
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I always figured gear like this was miltech and for the opposition to use. You can't really make it payment for a run because a smart team won't trust the security on a gifted system.
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They've done that. You can be upset with it if you want; you can knock a 0 off the price for your table if you want. Go ahead; nobody's gonna stop you. But the equipment is balanced perfectly well with previous editions except for the only one you are used to. Your broken toy (and it WAS broken) went away; sorry. Realize that and you'll play better with the rest of us.
I feel like you're having a bit of rose-tinted glasses yourself here, no offense meant. The fourth edition one was ridiculous. Hands-down, should have been part of every runner group from the beginning, hardly a reason not to, regardless of your team's expertise.
But the issue isn't really that the 5th edition one is weak... No, it's quite good (beyond Level 1). But the issue is it's acquirability is where it starts to fail. And it's not like we haven't seen a similar kind of thing in 5th, where something too powerful in 4th was nerfed to stupid levels. Technomancer PANs. In 4th, they were completely unhackable to could run an untouchable TacNet all on their own. Now in 5th they can't even slave devices, despite that their PAN issue wouldn't even be possible with the new matrix design...
I think it's very likely that, after bringing the power-level of the PI-Tac to a reasonable level, they went overboard and pumped up the price and availability too far. I mean, the first level is completely rediculous. It gives a minimum bonus for a ridiculous amount of money and is completely illegal to own. The second level is where it starts providing actual bonuses and would at least be useful, a +1 to a combat skill, the leader shifting around 5 initiative... +2 to someone's Firewall. It's not massive, but it's there. But the price... It's probably more money than all of a Rating 5 Elite Corporate Security Lieutenant's gear (including his cyberdeck) combined. That is just so much money for a comparably small bonus.
Sure, you say, the bonus is good because it is not unbalancing. But please, no one here, including either Wyrm or Mithlas, should be just comparing it to 4th edition's TacNet. The PI-Tac may be more balanced in terms of effect than the old one, but in terms of price-to-effectiveness, it's not worth it. Even for corps, you could probably fund the training of another lieutenant for the price of that bonus to one team. Even if you just go "Oh the corps have infinite money", which I don't think anyone would, I was of the understanding they're supposed to be
I always figured gear like this was miltech and for the opposition to use. You can't really make it payment for a run because a smart team won't trust the security on a gifted system.
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That's a really good point... "You did good, now take this device that will plug into your deck and monitor your whole team. What? Oh, yes, it is worth far beyond the normal pay of a job like this. No, no strings attached. Just... Be sure to use it." The inevitable backdoor installed on your must-be-wireless-to-use device that records everything your teammates see and hear, and has their GPS location will be of great use the next time the Johnson who hired you wants you to work for him for free. And the time after that, and the time after that...
Man, I don't know. It just really seems obvious that if the only way a player group will ever get this is by saving half their money for a year instead of buying better upgrades, or else the GM just finding a way to give it to them, that there's a problem when it's not supposed to be something that players should never ever have. Or is that it? Am I just being a dumbass and it's just clearly intended to never be available for players ever anyways?
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I think you hit it man, it's a way to add some power to mooks, fodder and runner enemies without pumping up their skill level.
with a good tac net and a good commander a middling to average corp sec squad could put up some good resistance to a skilled runner team.
at least that's my take on why the cost (and benefits) are so high...
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I think you hit it man, it's a way to add some power to mooks, fodder and runner enemies without pumping up their skill level.
with a good tac net and a good commander a middling to average corp sec squad could put up some good resistance to a skilled runner team.
at least that's my take on why the cost (and benefits) are so high...
I don't think you'd need a PI-Tac for that. +1 to their rolls and an occasional 5 initiative to one guy in a team of six wouldn't make them much more effective. The main thing would just be a good commander and communication. Like the security spider actually being more than just the IT guy and commanding the corpsec while the security hacker protects the WAN. 'Cause that rigger can command the entire building's security and be in the host surrounded by IC while doing so. He can already be tracking their movements, biomonitors, weapon levels, and on top of any image links they have, he can use the cameras and what not slaved to the host. An ¥800k device for 7 of those guards isn't going to help much.
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Regarding Pi-Tac I think it's silly that what is essentially an extension of augmented reality, which is supposed to permeate everything in the game world, is poo-poo'ed by the developers, especially considering that we are at the threshold of the tech in RL2014. IMO they should knock a zero or two off the cost and embrace the concept.
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I think there's a lot of presumptions and assumptions - possibly on the part of the developers as well as some of the players talking about the issue. I think that it was rather strange in its ease of accessibility relative to its benefit in 4E, in 5E I think it's strange in its lack of access relative to its benefit.
Although I think that the idea of it being a mook tool isn't a bad one, I think that its price is still rather high. Remember that the vast majority of the time the PCs' enemies are going to be corporate security. Corporations tend to care about the bottom line, and keeping costs down. Would you outfit your [target compound]'s security with a tacnet costing approximately a million nuyen for some slight improvements in their performance, or would you spend two-thirds of that installing Wired Reflexes into your security team for a known and certainly not insignificant benefit?
I don't mind that things change from edition to edition, what I mind is when there's a disconnect between the crunch and fluff and one is significantly different from before - particularly when there's no logical extension to bring that difference into being.