Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Walks Through Walls on <07-05-14/1919:23>
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OK now it has been established that cloning is possible in the Shadowrun world.
I'm looking to use it in my current campaign and a couple of questions came to mind so I wanted to get people's thoughts.
1) If you clone an awakened person is the clone automatically awakened?
2) Does the clone have the memories of the person it is cloned from?
Those were the big two that I remember. I think there was something else but it escapes me at the moment.
Thanks for the feedback
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1) No
2) No
Also, to put a further damper on things, 'force-grown' clones are mindless, and make newborns look like Einstein if taken out of their vats. Clones grown at the normal speed are little different from any test-tube baby, and retain no memories or other abilities of the 'parent'. And even if they are the clone of a mage who was the son of two mages, they won't reliably awaken. Basically the chance that a slow-grown clone will awaken/emerge is the same as anyone else. And fast-grown clones are good for nothing except replacement parts.
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1) No
2) No
Also, to put a further damper on things, 'force-grown' clones are mindless, and make newborns look like Einstein if taken out of their vats. Clones grown at the normal speed are little different from any test-tube baby, and retain no memories or other abilities of the 'parent'. And even if they are the clone of a mage who was the son of two mages, they won't reliably awaken. Basically the chance that a slow-grown clone will awaken/emerge is the same as anyone else. And fast-grown clones are good for nothing except replacement parts.
But what about the Escaped Clone quality from 4th edition? I was under the impression that was a case of a clone for spare parts getting loose and deciding to run the shadows. How does that work if they're brain dead?
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ryo that is what started me down the line of thinking.
Mikron how long is slow grown as opposed to fast grown?
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'Slow-grown' clones are no different than test tube babies. In other words, no artificial stimulants to increase the growth rate, meaning if you wanted a copy of you as you are now (age 25), then you would have to wait 25 years. And Escaped Clone works with 'slow grown' clones, but it is explicitly said in Augmentation that fast-grown wimps are basically vegetables. A slow-grown clone, on the other hand, can live a perfectly normal life, because they're actually living, rather than just being put on 'fast forward' until their organs are the right age for harvesting.
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'Slow-grown' clones are no different than test tube babies. In other words, no artificial stimulants to increase the growth rate, meaning if you wanted a copy of you as you are now (age 25), then you would have to wait 25 years. And Escaped Clone works with 'slow grown' clones, but it is explicitly said in Augmentation that fast-grown wimps are basically vegetables. A slow-grown clone, on the other hand, can live a perfectly normal life, because they're actually living, rather than just being put on 'fast forward' until their organs are the right age for harvesting.
The quality directly references wimps though. And I know I've personally used it to be the full grown clone of a person who was the same age, and had the Enemy quality for the 'real' version of him that wanted to get rid of the clone.
At some point, someone made a clone from stored DNA: maybe your parents wanted their little girl back, maybe a rich corper thought this was his ticket to immortality, or maybe a megacorp grew a wimp for experimentation. Maybe she was accidentally released, saved by a kind soul, or misplaced at a clinic. Regardless, that clone eventually escaped into the world and realized its full potential becoming the character.
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Strictly speaking, if neuroplasticity could be preserved a wimp could be made "real" or however you want to term it by using something like a UV node...
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Strictly speaking, if neuroplasticity could be preserved a wimp could be made "real" or however you want to term it by using something like a UV node...
As of Augmentation, that is not possible. Corps have been trying, and they're not getting anywhere.
And Ryo, as I said, slow-grown clones could be viable individuals. A clone made a month ago isn't going to be able to do anything. However, a clone made eighteen years ago, that was 'liberated' or otherwise released into the wild, would be a viable 18 year old potential runner. If you're really interested in the clone angle, I suggest you read Augmentation, as it has the latest info we have on cloning.
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Mirikon is right, Augmentation changed things for clones. You can still take the cloned quality but now you are either a slow cooked one, or that 1 in billion freak accident.
Genetics seems to have less to do with magic then science wants to believe. Since Dunkie blew himself up, no one has claimed the billion neuyen reward for finding the 'awakened gene'. And you can bet some of the best minds in the world are looking for it!
Memories and skills come from experiences, which a clone has none of.... they are a blank slate and have to learn everything anew.
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Side note: Best guess from all I've read is that Awakened/Emerged is partly dependent on genetics, but there is also a layer of environmental factors involved, which throws off the results.
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Runner's Companion came out a year after Augmentation (or maybe even 3 years later? My copy says 2010, but the list at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rCx_cTYYQk0gviAT3PHnu7MzPJFShA3jLM6V9e2AdkE/ says 2007). Seems like the newer book would take precedence.
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The quality directly references wimps though. And I know I've personally used it to be the full grown clone of a person who was the same age, and had the Enemy quality for the 'real' version of him that wanted to get rid of the clone.
At some point, someone made a clone from stored DNA: maybe your parents wanted their little girl back, maybe a rich corper thought this was his ticket to immortality, or maybe a megacorp grew a wimp for experimentation. Maybe she was accidentally released, saved by a kind soul, or misplaced at a clinic. Regardless, that clone eventually escaped into the world and realized its full potential becoming the character.
The quoted text doesn't mention whether the clone is slow-grown, or Miracle-Gro.
EDIT: I think everyone else may have stated the same thing, but I was slow in replying. :P
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The quality directly references wimps though. And I know I've personally used it to be the full grown clone of a person who was the same age, and had the Enemy quality for the 'real' version of him that wanted to get rid of the clone.
At some point, someone made a clone from stored DNA: maybe your parents wanted their little girl back, maybe a rich corper thought this was his ticket to immortality, or maybe a megacorp grew a wimp for experimentation. Maybe she was accidentally released, saved by a kind soul, or misplaced at a clinic. Regardless, that clone eventually escaped into the world and realized its full potential becoming the character.
The quoted text doesn't mention whether the clone is slow-grown, or Miracle-Gro.
EDIT: I think everyone else may have stated the same thing, but I was slow in replying. :P
It's hiding out, but it's there.
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Nice thing about being the GM, is that you can decide whether you want to allow Quick grown, or only slow grown run away clones.
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Do these "quick clones" have fully developed brains, but just no memories?(tabula rasa?) If they do, they could be an almost ethical option for CFD inhabitation.
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Do these "quick clones" have fully developed brains, but just no memories?(tabula rasa?) If they do, they could be an almost ethical option for CFD inhabitation.
That is basically what everybody is arguing over. Has anyone checked the errata for the Runner's Companion?
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Under enforced growth conditions (basically a combination of hormone cocktails and genetic therapy to speed through growth cycles), the brain is not able to keep up with the rest of the body, yielding an underdeveloped brain that cannot keep the body alive on its own.
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Exactly. In other words, quick-grown clones are only good for replacing parts. ANYONE who is an 'Escaped Clone' is slow-grown.
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Remember that clones have been around since first edition / game start - 2050 - as part of high-end replacement parts. With Gold+ DocWagon, you have a fast-grown clone after 3 months, ready to replace any of your limbs or organs that fail, no matter the cause. So this ain't a new thing. Part of the issue, though, is that it isn't the 'sentient' portions that are at fault; it's the 'stay alive' sections that have to have wires run into them; think of the clones as requiring a pacemaker, and not because the heart is glitchy ...
Since the corporations are trying to figure out how to fast-grow sentient clones (no law against it, after all), though the de facto canonical answer to 'Escaped Clone' is a slow-growth one, I would table rule that anyone with the Quality was a one-in-a-thousand long-shot successfully-fast-grown sentient. The corporation will always be after the character - you'd have to take Hunted at max (or even max-plus-one), because whenever you get genescanned, agents are on their way. I might lump two or three top-level Hunteds on you, in fact, because not only ParentCo. would be after you - other ones would be too, because if they can figure that one out ... whoo, boy. That's one of the golden geese, man, especially if they can guide the development of the sentience, between psychotropic programming and the rest ...
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The reason I'm asking is for NPC and plot not a character to play in game. I have a group who has all the items needed for cloning and trying to figure out what options there are for plot and making the lives of the characters more interesting.
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*blinks* How in hell did they get that??? And why the hell haven't they sold it already???
'All the items needed for cloning' includes quite a bit - and all of it is going to be Pretty Damn Expensive. Gene sequencers are going to be needed to check to make sure the sample is pure; the balanced acid bath to turn the cells' active sequences off and revert the cell to essentially 'stem cell' (STAP cell) status will probably be tough to find. The initial matrix required to give the growing embryo nutrition; the nutrition fluid that feeds it and takes away the wastes. The waste filters; the growth accelerators; etc. etc.
Growing a clone is expensive, probaly 10-30% of that initial DocWagon Gold outlay. Keeping it alive, not so much. The really expensive parts are the growth tank(s), the proprietary software to run them, and everything else. Me, I'd put the street value of this stuff at a cool million, which means at least 3 million to purchase. DocWagon etc. get to reuse all the gear dozens and hundreds of times, of course ...
How the hell did they GET it? And why the hell did you let them keep it?
Let's presume they have all the right stuff. The 'interesting' part is really going to be how they choose to try to induce sentience during the forced growth. What do they do? What stage do they do it at? If they do manage to create a sentient fast-grown clone ... just that fact alone is going to make them, the clone, their records and their gear Worldwide Extraction Target #1.
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Yeah, Wyrm is right. BARE MINIMUM, you'd need a Facility, maybe two, just to HOLD all the gear that you would need for cloning. Add to that the value of all the chemicals and machines? And the scientific know-how to actually use them (these aren't 'push and play', you know!)? I'd say a million is lowballing it. You're talking about setting up an entire corporate lab here.
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I was actually just wondering something similar recently
Is it possible to use some sort of simsense/PAB based technology to transplant someone's full memories (up to the point of the copy) into a cloned "shell"?
This would allow for a strange immortality as the person wanting to live longer actually isn't at all- but their mind is
I wonder if anybody would actually do this given the fact that they arnt actually the ones living their extended life
It's more like giving your life experiences to someone else to live
And what would happen if you implanted the memories and experiences of a 90 year old into a 10 year old?
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Obviously, this would require 'slow-grown' clones. The tech already exists to 'condition' someone with false memories and adjusting personality traits. It basically does this via a form of post-hypnotic suggestion, though it does it directly in your brain with simsense conditioning. And there's the bit where you can use a Personafix chip. But the problem with all these methods is that you don't get the mental attributes of the individual you copied from, you use the victim's mental stats. And a mindless 'blank slate' is, not surprisingly, a mindless blank slate. And the problems start from there.
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The reason I'm asking is for NPC and plot not a character to play in game. I have a group who has all the items needed for cloning and trying to figure out what options there are for plot and making the lives of the characters more interesting.
So let them Frankenstein up a monster. If your characters are basic, run of the mill shadowrunners, they probably haven't thought to isolate the clone from the astral; they've just knocked together the perfect little home for some denizen of astral space to inhabit and go walkabout. The shedim may or may not be a threat in your game, but there have been dire warnings about that sort of thing since day one.
On the other hand, maybe they've hit that gazillion to one chance and somehow managed to make a perfect clone of the tissue donor, complete with sentience, sapience, and memories. Now they're the bad guys in a pod person scenario; how do they work it out? Assuming (again) that your players are run of the mill shadowrunners, odds are they don't have the same obsessive record keeping as actual lab rats, and will likely never be able to find the proper combination of luck and sloppiness to do it again.
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OK I didn't state what I meant well.
NPCs not associated with the characters have the equipment and are doing cloning. They have managed to get DNA of at least one of the PCs and others not necessarily associated directly with the group. I want to make it interesting, but still pretty much along with cannon about clones which is why I asked what I did.
The characters briefly had a vat, but not knowing exactly what they had they completed the job and gave it to Mr. Johnson.
The group that does have it is a powerful group that is being built up to one of the evil powers pulling strings in the game, but they are well aware how big of a target this could make them even if just making clones like others.
thanks for all of the input it has been helpful so far.
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OK I'm evil and just had another thought about this.
If you fast grow a clone its brain wouldn't be developed. If you wanted to fake a death and used the clone would it be obvious that the brain wasn't functioning after death? Would a typical autopsy reveal the deception or would the examiner need to be looking for something in order to find it?
Thanks
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... what, you're only now thinking about that? We were doing that back in the 2050's. And you would need to be looking for it; the tissue is developed, but the network is not. It's like the computers are in place (cellular scan) but the network cables (synapses) are not. And if you're going to fake your own death that way, use a method that leaves the face intact but destroys much of the brain matter - a hollowpoint to the forehead, for example.
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I was more thinking of to keep the original corporation from looking for an extracted person. Cover the trail with a dead body. Hmmm. This has options.
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Same thing. Faking a death with a clone is faking a death with a clone, whether that's you or someone else. Remember, though, that it isn't instantaneous. Getting the plan in place would take a minimum of 3 months, and if the person has any other distinguishing marks - moles, tattoos, scars, etc. - you're going to have to add them - and their fading.
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By the way, do fast-clones have Essence? Do they qualify as targets of Essence Drain? Vampire's Essence Drain?
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... I would say no. Essence is a matter of life-force, yes, but it's part spirit, part desire to live, part ... lots of things. Or you can just say that Essence measures the 'amount of binding your soul has to your body' - and since fast-clones presumably don't have souls ...
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... I would say no. Essence is a matter of life-force, yes, but it's part spirit, part desire to live, part ... lots of things. Or you can just say that Essence measures the 'amount of binding your soul has to your body' - and since fast-clones presumably don't have souls ...
Thank you =)
That's what I hoped for. Actually, I was afraid there might be some clear ruling that clones have Essence - that would have flagrantly devaluated vampires' dramatic value.
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What about slow-grown clones, then?
I'd say yes to both, because I personally think the alternative is no to both, and I don't think that makes much sense either. Sure, a fast-grown clone might have the mental faculties of a new-born, but even new-borns have "life energy" (aka souls, but my personal view as an agnostic does not mesh with the description of "souls", per se).
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@martinchaen,
As there are (apparently) no rulings either way, it's firmly in the domain of GM decisions =) At my table that would translate to Essence-less fast clones and Essence-full slow clones. That is primarily because I care about vampires staying troubled and all mystical and don't really care about Essence making sense - to me it's all Magic =)
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This whole fast-growth/slow-growth thing is what gets me. It's thought of as a switch; you grow a clone body in 90 days, that body is what, the equivalent of 18 years old, ready for harvesting, right? Well, how the hell do they slow the cellular growth and aging process?!?
You need a cloned liver, you get a replacement in 90 days, but the problem is that the cloned liver is still agiing at an accelerated rate. If it grew to maturity in 90 days, in another 90 days it's now the equivalent of 36 years old. Another 90, now it's 54 -- almost decrepit from old age. And in another 90? 72. Quite old-aged. You get a cloned replacement that's from a fast-grown clone, within a year it's failed due to age.
Admittedly by that time you can get another replacement from a clone that's maybe a little less quickly grown. But if this is a problem in the world, you start seeing why using stolen organs -- the whole organlegging thing -- is still around. People don't want to get a replacement that will die from old age less than a year after implantation.
I'm sure someone's going to say that they fixed this problem -- but it solves other things about the world. Why are fast-grown clones vegetables? Because they're fast-grown. They're going to be DEAD in a year. They're useless except as stopgap replacements for damaged or missing parts.
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Another thing: brain transplants exist in the Shadowrun setting. So many technologies use the concept. So, what's keeping corporate honchos from growing eighteen year old clones of themselves when they turn, say, 60 -- and then at 78, having their brain and spinal cord transferred to a nice young 18 year old clone? Immortality, so long as the brain holds out. And since organ transplants cost no Essence, this is an immortality technique that works for the Awakened.
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Not seen a "brain transplant" yet in SR...
Seen "jarheads"... but that is a far cry from transplanting a brain from one body to the next. (And jarheads go INSANE in weeks)
As for hyper accerated growth, we do this now to a limited degree by growing ears on mice that are then transplanted to humans...
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I'm sure someone's going to say that they fixed this problem -- but it solves other things about the world. Why are fast-grown clones vegetables? Because they're fast-grown. They're going to be DEAD in a year. They're useless except as stopgap replacements for damaged or missing parts.
Actually, I'm going to say - with some justification - that they never had this problem. The 'fast growing' is a result of enzymes and chemicals and complex crap that they have to add at specific points of growth, and for particular lengths of time. The clones don't just start growing incredibly quickly; they are forced to grow that quickly - hence 'force-grown', which is one of the other terms for a 'fast-grown' clone.
Forced-growth clones are vegetables because their brains aren't given any time to develop the things that are necessary for brains - neurons - which come about at their own peculiar rates, and in part require environmental events to pattern themselves. They can expand on simple neurons, sure - nerve cells from the spine. But the brain itself is about as complex a thing we've ever come across.
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Got me there, folks. Okay, I was wrong.
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NPCs not associated with the characters have the equipment and are doing cloning. They have managed to get DNA of at least one of the PCs and others not necessarily associated directly with the group. I want to make it interesting, but still pretty much along with cannon about clones which is why I asked what I did.
This just screams evil twin/doppelganger plot. I... I like that, a lot. mwahahaha...