Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: voydangel on <07-09-14/1837:16>
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When adding to the overwatch score you add the hits for defense tests against your Attack or Sleaze actions, and you add the sum of the dice (like with Initiative rolls) for the 15-minute 2D6 "auto OS increase action".
So, my question is this: Doesn't that seem a bit harsh considering there's no way to reduce your OS score? I mean, wasn't there a complex action back in 4a that allowed you to try to cover your tracks? Why is this no longer an option? Not to mention that TM's get to completely erase ALL of their activity for super cheap with minor risk as a complex action, or for "free" with a CF. Does anyone house rule this a little differently? Or has this been real-life play tested enough that people now generally agree that it is fine as is in the 5e RAW?
I'm just curious as I have yet to really get into the nitty gritty of 5e hacking
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Erasing your overwatch is as simple as rebooting your deck. You lose any existing marks, but can always reboot and try again from scratch.
So basically, if you're a decker, and you find yourself failing a lot of hacking actions, load up Baby Monitor, see where you're at, and reboot/start over if you need to.
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Yea, that's pretty much how I understand it works.
I was just curious if i was missing something that allowed you to try to reduce your OS by your net hits on a "reduce OS" action, or something similar.
Guess not.
Just seems odd that you have all these deckers/hackers running around constantly rebooting. Are they all running windows ME ?
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The new Matrix is described as much less hacker-friendly and thus it will expel you at some point, if you continue doing naughty things to it.
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Yea, that's pretty much how I understand it works.
I was just curious if i was missing something that allowed you to try to reduce your OS by your net hits on a "reduce OS" action, or something similar.
Guess not.
Just seems odd that you have all these deckers/hackers running around constantly rebooting. Are they all running windows ME ?
They claim to be. After all, what kind of hacker runs Renraku-Microsoft Windows ME? Clearly a script kiddie, can't possibly be the guy who hit that Lone Star host.
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Yea, that's pretty much how I understand it works.
I was just curious if i was missing something that allowed you to try to reduce your OS by your net hits on a "reduce OS" action, or something similar.
Guess not.
Just seems odd that you have all these deckers/hackers running around constantly rebooting. Are they all running windows ME ?
You could always be a Technomancer if you find OS to be such a problem.
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You could always be a Technomancer if you find OS to be such a problem.
Oh, this has nothing to do with making a character, I just enjoy figuring out the rules.
Game balancing is a hobby for me (used to get paid to do it, but no longer), so I sometimes like to nit pick little details, get community feedback, etc. when things strike me oddly.
Just for my own personal gratification. Plus it's a fun community and I like to hear what people think/feel about things beyond just RAW sometimes.
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Do you think the OS thing is due to game balance between the TM and Deckers? i.e. the Deckers are better hackers so the OS is there to give the TMs a leg-up, so to speak?
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I personally feel that TM's are underpowered right now, and that regular hackers are about right in the grand scheme of things, other than the fact that decks and RCC's are overpriced.
I do think that they put in the OS/reboot mechanic as a "nerf" to non-TM hackers, but I feel it is a poor implementation for balance as it really doesn't add anything to the games "experience". I feel that there could be a better solution that actually adds something interesting to the game rather than using a mechanic that simply requires players to have to start over every so often, which feels clunky and annoying to me.
As many game designers are aware, it is sometimes better to severely gimp someone in a way that feels appropriate rather than only mildly gimp them in a way that feels awkward or heavy handed. This is one of those cases where, IMHO, it makes hackers feel gimped, where it may have been better to come up with a more elegant solution, even if that solution was technically a more severe hindrance than the current setup.
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Do you think the OS thing is due to game balance between the TM and Deckers? i.e. the Deckers are better hackers so the OS is there to give the TMs a leg-up, so to speak?
While it serves that purpose, no, that wasn't the reason. A big part of the 5e matrix design was trying to make deckers an active part of the team. OS ensures that the decker can't just set everything up weeks in advance, and thus do nothing while the rest of the party acts (and the rest do nothing while he sets things up). Because of OS, the decker needs to be there, performing their role with the rest of the team.
Similarly, noise ensures that the decker can't just sit at home while everyone else is out doing the job. The matrix redesign focused on this a lot.
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Do you think the OS thing is due to game balance between the TM and Deckers? i.e. the Deckers are better hackers so the OS is there to give the TMs a leg-up, so to speak?
While it serves that purpose, no, that wasn't the reason. A big part of the 5e matrix design was trying to make deckers an active part of the team. OS ensures that the decker can't just set everything up weeks in advance, and thus do nothing while the rest of the party acts (and the rest do nothing while he sets things up). Because of OS, the decker needs to be there, performing their role with the rest of the team.
Similarly, noise ensures that the decker can't just sit at home while everyone else is out doing the job. The matrix redesign focused on this a lot.
I completely agree 100%, but then why did they make it so that TM's can completely bypass all those rules? you see the dilemma? =P It's mainly an issue with consistency.
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Question:
If you have a direct connection to a Device, does the devices hits still add to your OS? The book doesn't spell it out, but is does say that Grids, Hosts, and everything doesn't matter, it's just you and the device. GOD shouldn't see you.
So if true, you could get a mark on a device ==> Mark on the Host ==> While your in the Host your OS doesn't increase with attack/sleaze actions ==> get out without ever having an OS rating higher than 0.
Since TM's cannot get direct connections by the book, they'd always increase their OS and thus need a way to reduce it.
But that's just my personal theory.
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That is a good question TheDai! Put more generally: Is there any way at all to hack into a device/host/grid/whatever without getting any OS? Does the direct connect through a device idea work? if yes, can someone detail the way to do that in game mechanics speak (rolls/actions/etc.) and if not, is there a way? how?
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I don't think you can avoid OS. The Matrix for 5th edition was built to revolt against hacking. That means its protocols detect even minute actions that violate its basic rules. I would assume that even hacking an offline camera via datacable would cause OS as long as that camera is connected to a host that is connected to the Matrix. The Matrix protocols apply to all devices connected to it, similarly to TCP/IP protocols, maybe?
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So, my question is this: Doesn't that seem a bit harsh considering there's no way to reduce your OS score?
I'd say it is working as intended. Deckers are not supposed to reduce their OS (in this edition).
Deckers are supposed to jack in for an hour or two and then jack out.
Technomancers can only reduce their OS if they learned the Cleaner Complex Form.
This is a game mechanic that Deckers does not have access to.
This let her Trace, Snoop and keep all Marks on Devices an Host(s) for many hours
Deckers can establish a physical direct connection with a device to bypass host ratings.
This is a game mechanic that TMs does not have access to.
This let him get a new Mark on a Host after jacking out as long as he got physical proximity to a slaved device.
Question:
Attack and Sleaze actions are Matrix Actions
(no mention that they are available while not connected to the Matrix):
SR5 p. 237 Matrix Actions
Matrix actions are only available in the Matrix...Matrix actions are special because certain rules apply to them, like noise and the Overwatch Score.
Opposed hits on attack or sleaze action increase your OS
(no mention that opposed hits on attack or sleaze actions during direct connection ignore OS):
SR5 p. 232 Overwatch Score and Convergence
When you perform an Attack or Sleaze action, your OS increases by the number of hits the target gets on its defense test.
Direct connection let you ignore noise, public- and cross grid penalties
(no mention that direct connection ignore OS):
SR5 p. 232 Direct Connections
When you use a direct connection, you ignore all noise modifiers and modifiers due to being on different grids or the public grid.
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Do you think the OS thing is due to game balance between the TM and Deckers? i.e. the Deckers are better hackers so the OS is there to give the TMs a leg-up, so to speak?
While it serves that purpose, no, that wasn't the reason. A big part of the 5e matrix design was trying to make deckers an active part of the team. OS ensures that the decker can't just set everything up weeks in advance, and thus do nothing while the rest of the party acts (and the rest do nothing while he sets things up). Because of OS, the decker needs to be there, performing their role with the rest of the team.
Similarly, noise ensures that the decker can't just sit at home while everyone else is out doing the job. The matrix redesign focused on this a lot.
I completely agree 100%, but then why did they make it so that TM's can completely bypass all those rules? you see the dilemma? =P It's mainly an issue with consistency.
They don't get to completely bypass the rules. They do have other ways of dealing with them, but that's not the same thing. Cleaner removes only a small amount of OS (it still accrues with time afterwards) and costs fading. Static Veil prevents OS accrual due to time, but when you have it sustained you take a -2 on all your other actions. This makes technomancers better for minor, but long-term, jobs. But Deckers are generally better for short hard jobs, anyways, so that seems fair to me.
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Deckers can establish a physical direct connection with a device to bypass host ratings.
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This let him get a new Mark on a Host after jacking out as long as he got physical proximity to a slaved device.
Thanks Xenon, your post was quite helpful in clearing up some of the ideas behind this stuff. I also re-read the entire matrix section of core5e last night, so that has helped to refresh my brain a little too. However, since you seem to be fairly adept at this whole matrix thing, if you wouldn't mind, based on the quote above, can you explain to me how this would work mechanically (in actions/rolls) as well as what those mechanical actions and rolls translate to in game? the way i see it is this, (please correct me where I'm off):
DeckerMan™ and his team are sitting at a locked security door and need to open it. There is a Maglock/keypad there, but they don't have a card or code for it.
DeckerMan™ pulls out his cable and connects to the Universal Data Connector (UDC) on the keypad in order to make a "direct connection".
• Why would anyone put a UDC on a keypad? Don't people realize hackers can do this and then just stop putting UDCs on anything/everything?
DeckerMan™ uses a "Brute Force" or "Hack on the Fly" Action to get a Mark on the device (maglock/keypad), he can do this due to having a direct connection (DC).
The Device only gets to resist the attempt using it's own device rating, and gets no firewall (unless it's a commlink or some other device with a native firewall rating, but it's not in this example) nor host bonuses due to the direct connect. And all hits on the defense roll are added to the DeckerMan™ OS tally.
• Is this correct? This is one of the places I'm fuzzy about - is it this, or does he get a free mark for having a DC?
DeckerMan™ now also has an automatic free Mark on the host that the device is connected to, in this case the security host.
• Is this correct? If so, wouldn't this reinforce the idea of not putting UDCs on anything at all ever?
Then we do either:
A) DeckerMan™ then uses a Complex "Spoof Command" action to trick the device into thinking that a 'open the door' command was entered by the security host.
• He can do this due to getting the free hit on the Security host, and it is fairly reasonable to assume that the security host has the ability to open the door at will.
OR
B) DeckerMan™ then uses a Free "Control Device" action to open the door 'manually'. He rolls Electronic Warfare + Intuition [Sleaze] v. Device Rating.
Finally, assuming all rolls were successful, etc., The door opens. -Fin-
Am I missing anything?
What would a TM have to do to accomplish the same thing in the same situation?
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DeckerMan™ and his team are sitting at a locked security door and need to open it. There is a Maglock/keypad there, but they don't have a card or code for it.
To hack Maglocks with Keypads you:
First you remove the casing with a
Locksmith + Agility [Physical] (Maglock Rating x 2, 1 Combat Turn) Extended Test.
If the maglock have anti-tamper system you also need to take a
Locksmith + Agility [Physical] (anti-tamper system rating) Test
To rewire the internal electronics you take a
Locksmith + Agility [Physical] (Maglock Rating x 2, 1 Combat Turn) Extended Test.
...or you use a Sequencer (p 448) with a
Sequencer rating vs Maglock Rating Opposed Test
(you get a positive dice pool modifier of 1 dice if wireless ON)
to re-assemble the case after the lock is picked you take a
Locksmith + Agility [Physical] (Maglock Rating x 2, 1 Combat Turn) Extended Test.
To hack Maglock with Cardreader you:
You can copy a valid key with a keycard copier (p. 447) with a
Hardware + Logic [Mental] (2) Test
(require a hardware kit and take about 10 minutes)
When you use the forged keycard you take a
Keycard copier rating x 2 vs Maglock Rating x 2 Opposed Test
Or you can use a Maglock passkey "skeleton key" (p. 448) with a
Maglock Passkey Rating vs Maglock Rating Opposed Test
(you get a positive dice pool modifier of 1 dice if wireless ON)
...Or you remove the casing with a
Locksmith + Agility [Physical] (Maglock Rating x 2, 1 Combat Turn) Extended Test.
If the maglock have anti-tamper system you also need to take a
Locksmith + Agility [Physical] (anti-tamper system rating) Test
To rewire the internal electronics you take a
Locksmith + Agility [Physical] (Maglock Rating x 2, 1 Combat Turn) Extended Test.
to re-assemble the case after the lock is picked you take a
Locksmith + Agility [Physical] (Maglock Rating x 2, 1 Combat Turn) Extended Test.
A decker or technomancer can also Hack Maglocks from the Matrix.
You can hack the lock from AR, cold-sim VR or hot-sim VR (VR = ragdoll mode).
The cyberprogram Fork (p. 245) can be used to hack two locks at the same time without splitting the pool.
First you need a mark on the lock which is either a
Hacking + Logic [Sleaze] v. Intuition + Firewall Opposed Test
(Hack on the Fly)
or a
Cybercombat + Logic [Attack] v. Willpower + Firewall Opposed Test
(Brute Force)
Then you Control the device to open with a
Electronic Warfare + Intuition [Sleaze] v. Intuition + Firewall Test
(Control Device)
You can control multiple devices at once.
- You need marks on them all and you have to split your dice pool,
but the actions you control them to take does not have to be the same.
(Fork also let you control two devices at once, but in this case you need to control them to take the exact same action).
If you already have a mark on the owner of the lock you can instead take a
Hacking + Intuition [Sleaze] v. Logic + Firewall Test
(Spoof Command; this does not require a mark on the lock)
Depending on your reading a Technomancer can instead also take a
Software + Resonance [Level] v. Willpower + Firewall Test
(Puppeteer; this does not require a mark on the lock)
DeckerMan™ pulls out his cable and connects to the Universal Data Connector (UDC) on the keypad in order to make a "direct connection".
• Why would anyone put a UDC on a keypad? Don't people realize hackers can do this and then just stop putting UDCs on anything/everything?
Most public accessible devices are probably not slaved at all (since it compromise the security of the host), but there will be exceptions (but maybe you need to do at least some basic breaking and entering before you can physically reach one). And the UDC does not have to be easy to access since most of the time you would access it wireless anyway. But all devices have a UDC (or else you can't access it at all if you ever turn wireless OFF - which for the owner is a free action... imagine the support calls you would get "i accidentally turned my maglock wireless OFF, again, and now I can't turn it on-line again...").
DeckerMan™ uses a "Brute Force" or "Hack on the Fly" Action to get a Mark on the device (maglock/keypad), he can do this due to having a direct connection (DC).
He can do this by accessing it on the grid like he would from home.
Or by accessing it directly from within the host it is slaved to.
The reason why he establish a direct connection is because he don't have a mark on the host yet and because he don't want to roll against high host ratings. If it is not slaved to a host then you don't need to fight high host ratings so there is really no reason to establish a direct connection to it (exception being if it is a throwback or for some other reason a wireless OFF device).
The Device only gets to resist the attempt using it's own device rating, and gets no firewall
sR5 p. 234 Devices
Devices have a smaller-than-person-sized icon in the Matrix. They also have three ratings: a Device Rating and two of the Matrix attributes, Data Processing and Firewall. For most devices, the Matrix attributes are the same as the Device Rating.
DeckerMan™ now also has an automatic free Mark on the host that the device is connected to, in this case the security host.
Yes.
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Not to mention that TM's get to completely erase ALL of their activity for super cheap with minor risk as a complex action, or for "free" with a CF.
What are you referring to here? Aside from Cleaner, they don't have anything else to remove OS that deckers don't. And Cleaner is a slow process... Maybe one or two OS at a time if you don't want to risk Stun. You can use it before anything happens and everyone is not really bothering with exact initiative passes, but once the action starts you can't really rely on it. And Static Veil doesn't prevent the main source of OS-- Hits (not net hits) on opposing dice pools.
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Basically, there are 3 ways to get a mark on a device:
1) Hack on the Fly or Brute Force the device out on the Grid.
- You need to first spot the device icon.
- The device will defend with host ratings IF it is slaved to a host.
- You can hack any wireless device this way (slaved or not).
- You can attach a wireless data tap in the universal access port of a throwback to hack it wireless
- You can attach a wireless data tap on a cable of a wired device to hack both devices wireless
2) Attach a cable for a Direct Connection
- You need to physically find and reach the device's universal access port.
- The device will not defend with host ratings even if is slaved to a host.
- You can hack any device this way (slaved or not, wireless or wired).
- Also let you hack throwback and wired devices (that are wireless OFF)
- You can connect a wire to a data tap on a cable of a wired device to get direct connection to both devices.
3) Access a slaved device from within the Host it is slaved to
- You need to first get a Mark on the Host and Enter Host
- You will get a direct connection; device will not defend with host ratings.
- Throwback and wired devices cannot be slaved to a Host (hosts only exist on the Matrix)
- From within the Host you cannot access devices that are not slaved to the host
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right on, that helps. Thanks guys.
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Its high noooon.... activate aimbot XD
(https://hackerbot.net/images/imgsrc/overwatch-cheats.jpg) (https://hackerbot.net/fps/plus/9-overwatch)