Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Whiteblade111 on <07-18-14/1528:37>
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I'm Dm'ing a shadowrun campaign and one of my characters is playing a melee fighter character. He's stocked full of bioware that gives him higher agility, more armor and makes his unarmed attacks deal physical damage. This is fine, but he has almost no weaknesses. He can take shotgun blasts to the chest with a shrug and automatic fire bounces off him. He has incredibly low essence but I can't find any tangible downsides to having low essence. Yeah, he has a lower social limit, but in terms of actual rules not much is stopping him from just punching first and never asking questions.He just uses shurikans if he needs to kill someone at range.
So, what's the downside to low essence and bioware?
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So, what's the downside to low essence and bioware?
there is no downside to low Essence
and Bioware doesn't show on Cyberscanners which is an Upside
with an Updance
Medicineman
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How would you suggest balancing him out then? The player is just able to really bypass everything.
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how is he against spirits?
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The player is just able to really bypass everything.
no one is immune against everything !
If the Char seems to be able to soak any damage try hitting him with something unusual.
Fire (Molotovcoctails) Electricity , Create a Pit for him to fall in, try toxins or poisons(Neurostun),drop a Piano on him
Spells (lots of strong,physical Chars are weak Willed) , Spirit Powers.
Hough!
Medicineman
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Thanks for the suggestions, I'll try some out to give him a challenge.
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You can't balance a combat optimizer by just making combat harder. That's like mud-wrestling a pig. You get muddy and the pig just likes it.
You can balance him by throwing him into situations where shooting first isn't appropriate. Train him, don't hit him over the head.
If your typical session is shaped like this (and I'm not saying it is!):
1. Meet with Johnson, group negotiates for pay. Possible fight.
2. Scene that ends in a fight.
3. Scene that ends in a fight.
4. Climactic scene that ends in a fight.
...then who can blame him for shooting first? Try this instead:
1. Meet with Johnson, conflict results in mission failure. Individual negotiation rolls for bonuses, no group bartering.
2. Social scene that ends in a fight.
3. Scene that sets up climax, conflict is possible. Bonus karma and advantage in climax for solving instead of defeating.
4. Climactic scene that ends in a big fight.
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That's like mud-wrestling a pig. You get muddy and the pig just likes it.
LOL - I'm still chuckling... :)
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The downside to bioware is it's price and, to a lesser extent, it's inability to interact with technologies in the same way that a datajack can.
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We had a couple characters like that in our last campaign. GM threw us up against a mage who used control thoughts on our samurai, "You want to put the adept through the wall." If our adept didn't have the regenerative abilities from HMHVV, that fight would have gone south quick. Mental spells and spirits should give him a bit of a challenge. Like Medicineman suggested try some alternative methods of attack. Who knows, every now and then they might run into that one guy packing APDS or Stick-n-Shock rounds ;)
But back to the original question, bioware is generally very expensive and hard to get ahold of. Most starting characters won't be able to get very much (Even if they take A for resources, standard rules only allow 12 availability or less). This means they'll need to be saving up for any more, and have some good contacts to get them access to it. As for low essence, it doesn't really matter so much if you're not using Magic or Resonance. I think some spells might use Essence for something, but I can't think of any examples off of the top of my head.
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Low essence - quick snack for HMHVV-empowered individual - once there's a link for the essence transfer, they go down fast.
Low essence also makes it tough for the mage to heal him. However, I'm wondering exactly how he is taking 'shotgun blasts to the chest' and 'shrug off automatic weapons fire'?? Rolling what, 15 dice base (Troll with a Body 11, +4 dice to resist damage from bone enhancements) and oodles of armor might work it, but armor does have a functional upper limit - especially a social one. And weapons do have AP.
If you want to hurt him, you will have to deliberately set out to do so. Maybe the group beats another team to 'the prize' a few times, and that other team decides to hold a personal grudge. A sniper can do serious damage to yon Super-Immune-To-Combat-Damage, because not every day is a shadowrun ...
... so play out some of those days.
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Oh jeeze, I don't know where to start.
He's a good street sam, and that's okay. Don't worry about making combat a challenge for him. Just give him Runs to do and let him figure out how to be a badass.
If you want to challenge him, don't plan your runs or your scenes. Just let them figure that stuff out on their own. They meet the Johnson, they get a target, a pat on the back and a "good luck!" And maybe an inappropriate piece of gear like "all the ammunition you can carry to steal those files from that arcology."
That's worked fantastically for me in the past. After a big flub up or two, and an HTR team + attack helicoptor breathing on his heels, he should be feeling the pressure. I think you'll find that the Sammy gets a little more diverse in their approach to problem solving.
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As an aside, I will note that Stolen Souls has stated that heavily-bioware-modified individuals are especially vulnerable to CFD. Dunno why, but there you go ...
Oh yeah - socially, that low Essence is going to be a problem. So put him in a situation where if he goes all Kung Fu Panda on everyone, he doesn't stand an ice cube's chance in the Mojave, they'll just lock down the wing and let him rot if they have to. Then start pushing the social buttons.
All the real solutions to this (besides ramping up the physical threats) are going to involve RP, really - highlighting the areas he hasn't focused so much on. So there you go. :)
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All the real solutions to this (besides ramping up the physical threats) are going to involve RP, really - highlighting the areas he hasn't focused so much on. So there you go. :)
Definitely a good point. My group alternates weekends between SR and a World of Darkness game. In the WoD game, we're all new at whatever we're doing. We started play as mortals, and then depending on RP elements we changed into our flavor of boogie-man (I became a werewolf, some became vampires, others stayed hunters, etc). As a newly-turned wolf I decided I wanted to be the alpha wolf of Atlanta (since I had killed the previous one, his bite into my shoulder triggered the change), and spent XP into being a badass warrior that crushed whatever the GM threw at me. My only weakness? Most everything else. In our game now I'm relatively socially inept (even though I'm about to attempt to rally all the wolves in Atlanta under one pack), and fairly susceptible to the "influences" of our enemies (demons representing the seven sins, threatening apocalypse and whatnot) which for the sake of SR works similarly to Control Thoughts.
Point is, if you spend a lot into one aspect of a character, you're leaving yourself vulnerable in all others. Is that a bad thing? Not always. My SR group is 7 players, so each of them is pretty specialized but they have enough bases covered to watch each others' rears. The mage can't take a hit, nor can the technomancer. Our samurai can be lewd and crude, and our weapon specialist is the quiet type; neither is particularly good with negotiations. We did have a troll adept though, who focused his whole character concept on being the tank of the team. Full auto fire might not have ever done any physical damage, but he was plenty battered and bruised (stunned, if you will?) after his intimidation tactics only succeeded in making some poor ganger piss his pants and hold the trigger of his AK-97.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure I'm rambling at this point. You get the idea :p
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That's like mud-wrestling a pig. You get muddy and the pig just likes it.
LOL - I'm still chuckling... :)
I am Definitely going to make a point to use this within the week at work.
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I fail to see the real problem here. So someone takes some augmentations to be good at combat. So what? Shadowrunners are supposed to be good at their jobs. The basic mooks of the game, the thugs one rung below street gangers, roll 6 dice to attack and 6 dice for passive defense - and the game has rules for teamwork, in addition to traditional wolfpack tactics (the one being attacked uses full defense while the others try to strike from an advantageous position). Even mooks can get lucky, or be dangerous in numbers, and it only escalates from there. What kind of enemies are you sending against the group? I can't see how a starting character could be breezing through the opposition.
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Downside to bio? It's alive, and subject to all downsides therein that cyber are not.
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Well, it's not written anywhere, but you might rule that bioware is especially tasty for ghouls...
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I thought the downside of bioware was "it's crazy expensive".
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I thought the downside of bioware was "it's crazy expensive".
Yeah, however, in SR5, taking Priority A for resources...really leaves you with plenty you can do. Interestingly,
Bioware really does a good Tank Sam. You want to do a speed Sam, then it is Cyber with Wired Reflexes and
reaction boosters wirelessly enabled. But, building a Street Sam who takes hits and soaks LOTS is where an
all Bioware Street Sam excels.
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One word: stunbolt.
I'm not sure how the spell works in 5th edition, but in 4th if you want to take down those uber-cybered or -bioed street sammies, throw a stunbolt. It has a rediculous low drain, so overcasting is easy and it's defended with willpower, mostly not the street sammie's highest priority. It's not the first time I one-shot cybered-up trolls who normally go 'stop shooting me, it tickles'.
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One word: stunbolt.
I'm not sure how the spell works in 5th edition, but in 4th if you want to take down those uber-cybered or -bioed street sammies, throw a stunbolt. It has a rediculous low drain, so overcasting is easy and it's defended with willpower, mostly not the street sammie's highest priority. It's not the first time I one-shot cybered-up trolls who normally go 'stop shooting me, it tickles'.
Stunbolt was rebalanced so it doesn't one-shot everything forever anymore. Now it's damage is just the net hits you get, though it is still defended with just Willpower.
Also, I'm with Glyph. A street samurai being good at combat is not a bad thing. A Shadowrun game is not all about combat. If the combat being easy for one character is impacting the game too much, you need to branch out into the other scenarios that should be popping up.
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Besides, bioware can be detected with a good assensing roll. And at airports and some other high profile points they will have mages and/or spirits who specialise in that sort of thing. They detect the bio that way and then have security take the guy to another room where an MRI machine is waiting to see exactly what he has put in his body (hopefully nothing with a F rating :) ).
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If you make cybersensors to ubiquitous, you will inconvenience the street samurai with cyberware a lot more than the guy with bioware. Besides, when you run into scanners, the usual plan is not "Gee, hope that scanner doesn't detect my cybergun loaded with explosive rounds". You will have a legitimate reason to be there and someone to vouch for you, have fake permits for your augmentations, or will be counting on your hacker buddy to get you past it.
Someone with a few skills of 6, decent Attributes, and 400 K or thereabouts in bioware is tough, sure, but not overwhelming. It's like being a hacker with some skills of 6 and a good deck, or a mage or adept with Magic of 6, some skills of 6, and a few foci. It's normal for the game. Look at the street samurai and the tank - these are basic archetypes. Granted, one of them has overspent by 200 K +, and the other one is hobbled by an Agility of 2. But they still show that a high level of augmentation for a combat character is nothing unusual.
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Besides, bioware can be detected with a good assensing roll. And at airports and some other high profile points they will have mages and/or spirits who specialise in that sort of thing. They detect the bio that way and then have security take the guy to another room where an MRI machine is waiting to see exactly what he has put in his body (hopefully nothing with a F rating :) ).
That is not how airport security works. Functional mages are as rare as doctors, and security isn't willing to pay that much for a trained professional just to do random spot-checks. Maybe at a major airport you'll have a dedicated mage to cast 'detect weapon' during the busy hours at the main checkpoint. That and the Feds are generally magic-phobic, assuming airport security is still federally controlled. Airport security does not use MRI machines. They would have decent cyberware, olfactory, and weapon scanners. So, make a perception + intuition three times with a Sensor rating of 5 or so. Failing that may result in arrest or failing to catch the flight.
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Besides, bioware can be detected with a good assensing roll. And at airports and some other high profile points they will have mages and/or spirits who specialise in that sort of thing. They detect the bio that way and then have security take the guy to another room where an MRI machine is waiting to see exactly what he has put in his body (hopefully nothing with a F rating :) ).
That is not how airport security works. Functional mages are as rare as doctors, and security isn't willing to pay that much for a trained professional just to do random spot-checks. Maybe at a major airport you'll have a dedicated mage to cast 'detect weapon' during the busy hours at the main checkpoint. That and the Feds are generally magic-phobic, assuming airport security is still federally controlled. Airport security does not use MRI machines. They would have decent cyberware, olfactory, and weapon scanners. So, make a perception + intuition three times with a Sensor rating of 5 or so. Failing that may result in arrest or failing to catch the flight.
A full mage isn't really required, though - an Adept with Astral Perception, a very low-level Awakened person who only has Astral Perception, or even just a properly trained para-critter could do the job, which would cover off more than just 'ware; you need that element to pick up on things like spirits, active spells, and so on.
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Actually, according to the Coyote sourcebook about borders, there was a TON of security, even magical, even at the "safe" borders... I'd be willing to bet the same applied to airports, ja?
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Two words: overwhelming numbers. Enough goons with shotguns will eventually make him unable to dodge bullets, and unless he's a troll with armoured cyber limbs he's not soaking 10 boxes of damage repeatedly. T-250's are cheaper than pistols so it'd make sense for goons to have them. Electricity damage (stun batons) are also very good against tank-like objects because of the high AP.
That said the average Sam is supposed to be able to move through a bunch of basic goons no problem - that's why the Sam gets paid. It's the goons backup that's supposed to be the problem.
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Well, you can reach a 9-10 Body without too much trouble, and get some moderately heavy armor, you only need another 21 points to mostly-reliably shrug off weapons fire.
Which is why I go with chem and aim to avoid armor if I can. "Roll your Body + Will + chemical defense, Homer!!" "Wait, what?!?"
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This is going to be a long one from me, so you'll have to forgive me.
The first part of it is that it's very expensive. While it's great, the cost behind it makes it a spiral. If you want some decent bioware, you need the money, you bioware has been damaged/detected and removed or a new model is what you're now after, you're going to need the nuyen to get it, meaning you're working and need some pretty good jobs or a good run of successful runs.
While the character is certainly doing his job, I would still have a look at the type of security you're having the team up against. There's something that should be able to hurt them held on stand by in every major office, team. There's got to be something that makes them pull back. Geek the mage first is said for a reason and a good place to start.
As for detection of it, I'd look to the above posts, they offer some good options. Bad luck happens to everyone, and you might be dealing with someone who really thinks the metahuman body is sacred and should not be changed, biologically or cybernetically. There are plenty of ways to detect it, if you're looking for it.
As well as that, on the security side, I think you should look at general security for where he goes too. Bioware, because it is so expensive, makes him a target of bioware harvesting groups. If he wants that type of character, he should pay the price. Especially if he's got a fair bit of work done. Each time he's goes in for a new piece, remind him that he might not actually wake up. Sure it's something of a cheap shot, but this is Shadowrun and more importantly it's also what makes sense in my mind. It's revenge and profit combined into one neat little package.
On the subject of revenge, the use of an assault cannon is encouraged here. If people know him for being said wall of flesh, then they'll take active measures to either disable or to work around.
Try and build situations up for options that don't involve extreme violence. Give the group tasks that are only offered because the troll is known as being a reflective bullet magnet. Make him do the negotiations and build on challenges in those runs that while he's needed to take hits, some pretty big ones, there's still plenty for the others to do. Play on the team identity as well, across the whole group.
Chemical, magic, also presents options and have been well listed above. Same goes elemental types of damage.
On a personal note, when it comes to the low Essence part of it, I had an idea in my mind for that. I suppose I see it as the spark, creative force, that some people have. That thing which makes them stand out, makes Mick Jagger, Mick Jagger. That if he's pursuing any sort of creative path, art, performing etc, that things feel different, harder. That things are more..... technical, less creative. That music feels duller, less intensive, inspiring, emotional. Art he loved is now that little bit boring, he needs to be in the right mood to enjoy it. Same goes for anything that the character particularly enjoys.
I'd even have gone as far as to have subtle reactions, that people don't seem to notice him at first. It's hard to explain to be honest. It's like everyone is slightly distracted when it comes to him. They need to focus a little more on the fact he is physically there. This isn't any sort of active stealth or hiding, more that there's something less notable about his troll. I wouldn't go so far as to describe this character as a meat shell, but there's something about the character that just rubs the more sensitive the wrong way. They don't need to be adepts or magicians either, there's just something less about them that makes people react badly.
Imagine going in to buy some food and the metahuman behind the counter screams at you to get out, which causes building security to come in and escort you out. That's perhaps taking it a little further than I might, but is none the less an option. Perhaps being charged a little more for basic purchases every so often, or selling things for a little less than he should get as well. That he needs to repeat himself every so often, as he's not obviously noticed. People might walk into him for being so busy, really it's from the low Essence. I'd supporting many different ideas, as long as they were subtle, gentle and creative. Like all of those little frustrations that you get over the course of a too long day.
I plan on making this apply to all characters of less than two, three essence.
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It's an interesting take on the matter, and I like it - even if certain individuals in the Shadowrun canon (Mercurial) are both cybered out the wazoo and are megacreative superstars...
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It's an interesting take on the matter, and I like it - even if certain individuals in the Shadowrun canon (Mercurial) are both cybered out the wazoo and are megacreative superstars...
Creativity is 90% effort, 3% blood, 3% sweat, 3% tears and 1% inspiration. I'd say they'd have a team behind them, Ghost writers if you will. Harder also doesn't mean impossible. The creative periods, ideas are just that bit further apart than they were when when there was less cybernetics. The ideas might just need more work as well.
Sounds like a plot hook to me, that people really can't know the real cost of the cyberwear. The secret of a ghost writing team can't get out at any cost. That people in the crowd are plants, to make sure people see and react to a certain pop star.
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... by all means, play it that way in your games.
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I think it feels very Shadowrun, the whole doctored image, the fame for the sake of fame. Of needing to keep and maintain an image, of everything having a cost.