Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Devil on <07-23-14/0304:58>
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Hello. I was curious if you can make a cyberarm into a weapon focus? And no, I dont mean cyberweapons attached to a cyberarm.
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If I spend Essence for the Cyberarm it becomes part of my Body.
can I turn my natural Leg into a Weaponfocus ?
with a focused Dance
Medicineman
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If I spend Essence for the Cyberarm it becomes part of my Body.
can I turn my natural Leg into a Weaponfocus ?
with a focused Dance
Medicineman
Well, in the Presidio Sean Connery's Character beat a guy with his Right Thumb (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Dka54jH9po) because the Left Thumb (Weapon Foci maybe?) was as he stated 'too powerful'. :P
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A cyberarm isn't "a weapon" is it? I mean, you can hit stuff with it, harder then a normal arm, but it's as much a weapon as a normal arm is.
On the other hand, could you make it into a weapon focus before it's attached? (It's sort of like a club then?) And does it magically become a non-focus once it's attached?
I think it's one of those points where the logic of a fictional set of natural laws break down.
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Hello. I was curious if you can make a cyberarm into a weapon focus? And no, I dont mean cyberweapons attached to a cyberarm.
No
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I'd allow it...
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I'm back, baby!
I would say no way can this work. Foci cannot be cybernetic, nor can they be a part of a person. Qi foci are a notable exception to the last bit, but the focus is not tied into the person, but rather the tattoo.
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I'm back, baby!
That's it, we gotta move that spare door key from under the doormat.
Err... we mean Welcome Back! :P
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A weapon focus always has, unsurprisingly, the form of a melee weapon.
Simple logical check:
Is a knife a melee weapon? Yes.
Is a knife a processed object? Yes.
Can a knife be used in physical combat? Yes.
Can a knife be made into a weapon focus? Yes.
Replace all those mentions of "knife" with "cyberarm", and you'll see why I'd personally allow it. If it can be done for knucks and a knife, why the hell not a cyberlimb.
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If it can be done for knucks and a knife, why the hell not a cyberlimb.
Because knucks and knives are simple weapons. Because knucks and knives aren't a part of a person's body. Because knucks and knives don't take up Essence. Because knucks and knives have no moving parts.
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I would say no way can this work. Foci cannot be cybernetic, nor can they be a part of a person. Qi foci are a notable exception to the last bit, but the focus is not tied into the person, but rather the tattoo.
Sorry.. got called away..
Actually there is precedent in a cyberlimb being used as a foci. 4th Edition FAQ had this to say:
Edit: didn't get all the paragraphs in first time around
Can I have _____ as a focus? How much does it cost?
A focus can take any form: a ring, a dagger, a commlink, a cyberlimb, etc. For most foci, it is assumed the cost of the telesma (the physical basis of the focus) is incorporated in the cost of the focus. If the player wants the focus to be anything particularly large or expensive, however, then the cost of the item should be added to the cost of the focus.
Snowblood wants a Force 2 monofilament sword weapon focus; the talismonger tells her it would cost 20,750¥-750¥ for the telesma (monofilament sword) and 20,000¥ for the enchantment (Force 2 weapon focus).
Can you enchant cyberware and bioware? What about nanotech or genetech?
You can enchant cyberware, but this must be done before it is implanted (after it's implanted, it's a part of you). Such a focus would be considered Mundane Telesma (pp. 83-84, Street Magic). Bioware is a living material and may not be enchanted.
I can not imagine it would be cheap though with the components involved to make it that way.
Edit: A possible issue from a game balance issue could be for the cyberadept/cyber mysticadept down the road loading up with all sort of cyber foci, then rebuilding his mojo with a lot of initiation so he can focus those points on specific effects cyber doesn't offer giving him all the strength of cyber, the magic of adept plus built in foci that are not so easily removed.
But that would be a very long term plan/campaign to really pull it off ad that's assuming something does not break them along the way.
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Firearms can be turned into weapon foci, so I don't see any harm in allowing cyberlimbs, although making it yourself would be annoying due to Object Resistance.
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If it can be done for knucks and a knife, why the hell not a cyberlimb.
Because knucks and knives are simple weapons. Because knucks and knives aren't a part of a person's body. Because knucks and knives don't take up Essence. Because knucks and knives have no moving parts.
What about weapons like the Victorinox Memory Blade, or how about a shock glove? Both fit the criteria of melee weapons while also being highly processed, complex items.
The only argument left is the Essence part, and with Sendaz find from the FAQ I really don't see that as a deal breaker because there is no stipulation in the Foci rules that a melee weapon that costs essence (like a cyber spur implanted in a natural arm) can be made into weapon foci.
Like I said; I would allow this because I see absolutely no reason not to.
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IIRC, there's stipulations on making foci out of complex objects. A knife is a simply a three pieces of metal plus tje handle. A gun is a much more complex. A cyberlimb is ridiculously complex by comparison.
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Only if you count the entire arm as the weapon focus. Take the hand; yes, it'll have more parts than a simple knife, but then look at something like a survival knife which has:
a GPS monitor, mini-multitool, micro-lighter, and a hidden compartment, and wireless functionality including the ability to make commcalls.
A Memory Blade can entirely change it's shape from a shoe to a knife. A Shock Glove has the ability to discharge current into an opponent. The survival knife is essentially a blade with a commlink. A chaincsaw is a freakin' chainsaw...
Bottom line: no one has yet given a succinct reason for WHY they wouldn't allow cyberlimbs to be taken as weapon foci beyond "because complexity".
I have provided my reasoning for why I would (namely because I don't see a reason not to, because I don't think the rules preclude it (i.e. makes no mention of object complexity), and because even if complexity is considered there are other complex items that can most certainly be used as weapon foci on the one condition that they are "melee weapons").
To the OP; take it up with your GM. You're not going to get a consensus here, because some people like to argue for arguments sake. And with that, I'm out.
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some people like to argue for arguments sake
I was under the impression it was because they took an immediate disliking to the idea. I'm going to run with cyberlimb foci working until specific rules or setting info are brought up to prevent it.
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My objection to turning a cyberarm into a weapon foci really comes down to the tech of a cyberlimb is way to much.
Your talking about turning a whole bunch of microprocessors, some nano-tech, some kind of power source, and of a lot actuators into a foci.
The arm is going to be much more modular. You don't replace the power cell in your weapon foci, you don't get you weapon foci checked out and tuned up.
Your weapon foci can't take matrix damage. Your weapon foci doesn't have capacity for upgrade slots.
I say no to an arm. I'd accept that you could weapon foci spurs, or razor claws.
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My perspective on this is that it'd be... Unlikely, to turn a complete cyberlimb into a weapon focus. However, I'd probably rule that spurs/hand razors/etc. could be made into a focus.
Anyways, if I remember correctly, isn't there a table that specifies how difficult it is to turn things into foci, the more processed they are? A cyberlimb (as a whole) would probably fall off the deep end of that chart.
And Martin, I've not yet seen an example of a memory blade, shock glove, or chainsaw weapon focus (or survival knife, for that matter). Personally, I'd take any of those ideas (besides the survival knife) and toss them in the trash.
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However, I'd probably rule that spurs/hand razors/etc. could be made into a focus.
it's perfectly rules legal for Spurs etc to be Weapon Foci (for 3 Editions now IIRC)
I still wonder why Devil wants a Cyberarm for a Weapon Focus when he can get Cyberweapons for Foci .
they do more damage and they're within the rules, whereas his Cyberarm Focus is inferior and needs Houserules....
I could've understood if He'd ask for cyberknuckles or other ...non-RAW Cyberweapons though.
JahtaHow
Medicineman
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Sendaz,
Thank you for bringing up that quote - that negates what I thought was correct. I stand corrected.
Martinchaen,
I'm going to assume that this wasn't directed at me:
some people like to argue for arguments sake
Am I correct in believing that this is not directed at me?
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Ah! The main issue with enchanting complex technology is Object Resistance (pg 295, SR5). A cyberlimb will have an OR of 15 or more dice! That's quite an order to expect an artificer to fill, especially when the working end (i.e, razors, blades and spurs) could reasonably have an OR of 3.
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Which is why if you want to, for example, turn your motorcycle into a Force 6 Qi Focus (Improved Ability (Pilot Groundcraft) 3), you typically pay an NPC, rather than doing the work yourself.
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Which is why if you want to, for example, turn your motorcycle into a Force 6 Qi Focus (Improved Ability (Pilot Groundcraft) 3), you typically pay an NPC, rather than doing the work yourself.
The problem with that is finding an NPC who's skilled enough to do that kind of job, and affording their increased rates.
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Which is why if you want to, for example, turn your motorcycle into a Force 6 Qi Focus (Improved Ability (Pilot Groundcraft) 3), you typically pay an NPC, rather than doing the work yourself.
While this maybe potentially possible, I'll tell you right now that, it would be way more cost effective, in terms of time, skill, and money to have your lucky dice or your keys turned into that qi focus. Or better still a nice tattoo that way you couldn't lose it, or worry about it getting damaged.
I'm all for cool and creative foci. I'm a big fan of the Armored Jacket Sustaining focus for instance, but stepping back a level of complexity or two can give you result you want without any push back.
For example no one would argue if you got weapon foci striker gloves or brass knuckles to go over your cyberlimb. It would work just the same system wise, and there would be no issue.
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I'm not sure what cyberknuckles are. Do they exist in SR5?
Cyberlimbs can be dangerous even
if they don’t have cyberweapons installed— their unarmed
Damage Value is (STR)P.
They are
astral constructs embedded within physical objects.
The physical
form of a focus varies—bracelets, amulets, belts, wands,
walking sticks, staves, cups, bottle caps, daggers, hats,
hip flasks, pens, and so on and so forth—although most
of the time a focus reflects the tradition of its maker.
QI Foci: Yantra Tattoos
Here are a few examples of qi foci from the Tantric tradition. These yantra tattoos are quite popular among young adepts, partly
because they’re effective, partly because it’s hard to remove, but mostly because they look pretty badass.
A weapon focus always has, unsurprisingly, the form of
a melee weapon. It adds magical power to the melee
attacks you make with it. When used in physical combat,
it gives you its Force as a dice pool bonus on your melee
Attack Test. You still rely on your Physical Attributes and
skills in combat; the weapon focus merely makes you
more effective.
SOCIETY OF THE
PHOENIX ARISEN
Members (est.): 18
Dues: 200¥/year
For those who do not check the screamsheets, the
Society of the Phoenix Arisen is a small collection of
arcanists who have, for one reason or another, felt the
need to mettle with the purity of their bodies by installing
artificial augmentations.
This is all SR5. ^
So basically we know that just because it is a part of you does not mean it cant be a focus. (tattoos)
We know that cyberlimbs do more damage than normal unarmed attacks. They are used in Melee. If you can have hardliner glove weapon foci then why not a cyberarm? You have to bond with a focus, so a cyberarm makes even more sense than gloves.
We know that magic users with augmentations are not unheard of. Besides having organizations, they have Way Of The Burnout and Burnout's Way as character options. Don't you think organizations that focus on blending the two things would blend the two things?
Astral constructs embedded in physical objects that 'most of the time' get chosen based on the personal tradition of the maker.... seems like Foci can be almost anything.
What I'm asking is if there is anything that states that I can't do this, because there is a fair amount supporting that I can. Am I missing something?
Why can you enchant a metal blade sticking from your fist but not your metal fist?
Edit: Okay, so lets talk for a second about whether cyberlimbs are really a part of you. if they were would they eat essence? Do tattoos? If you prick your cyberarm does it bleed? What does it look like in the astral compared to you? So, I could remove it, enchant it, then put it back on? In theory you can enchant improvised weapons, right?
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If it was simply a fist made out of metal there wouldn't be an issue. A fist made out of metal is just a funny shaped club. A cyberlimb is some serious complex tech. Its lots little of pieces of various materials connect together, powered by some kind of power source, managed by some decently sophisticated micro processors, connected to the user by some sort of seriously sophisticated hook up. Canon discussion of cyber-limbs includes that they have a high level of sensory feed back, to make that happen they have to be some how connected directly the nervous system, which probably means nano-tech.
If your enchanting a cyber-limb your aren't enchanting a single solid object your enchanting a complex modular technical system. What happens when you change the power source out? Now that limb is intrinsically a different object. Does the enchantment still hold? Or have you have to upgrade the software when a new patch comes out.
If you wanted to replace the limb with a hook, I'd have no issue with weapon focing that. But if your talking about the cyberlimb as discussed there lots of issues with that.
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If it was simply a fist made out of metal there wouldn't be an issue. A fist made out of metal is just a funny shaped club. A cyberlimb is some serious complex tech. Its lots little of pieces of various materials connect together, powered by some kind of power source, managed by some decently sophisticated micro processors, connected to the user by some sort of seriously sophisticated hook up. Canon discussion of cyber-limbs includes that they have a high level of sensory feed back, to make that happen they have to be some how connected directly the nervous system, which probably means nano-tech.
If your enchanting a cyber-limb your aren't enchanting a single solid object your enchanting a complex modular technical system. What happens when you change the power source out? Now that limb is intrinsically a different object. Does the enchantment still hold? Or have you have to upgrade the software when a new patch comes out.
Which all just means it's more difficult to enchant (high object resistance opposing the enchanting check), not that it can't be enchanted.
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Well there are no rule, as far as I can tell, for enchanting a part from something them putting it back in, or i'd be focused more on knuckles.
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Well there are no rule, as far as I can tell, for enchanting a part from something them putting it back in, or i'd be focused more on knuckles.
A set of Brass Knucks from 5th core can certainly be made into a weapon focus, and further they would fit over the fingers of a cyberlimb, no adjustment needed. Enchanting simple metal piece like those would be very straight forward, and they would do the job no problem. Nothing in RAW say it won't work. If you want them to match the look, that certainly doable, people make custom brass knuckles right now, it could easily be done.
That is clearly the way to go about this.
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I think I'd let you do that (because Rule of Cool), but it would be a hard road. That's not something you're going to find at your local Magic Mart (or at chargen). They do have a whole case of (display) Weapon Focus Brass Knuckles and will be happy to order one for you, if you'll just show your license and sign these forms over here. . .
I'd basically require you to get a hold of a team of people with expertise in cyberware, artificing and augmenting the Awakened. Gonna cost time and nuyen, of course. Lab space is expensive. Orichalcum is expensive. Enchanting things with OR of 15+ is a risky business. Then you get to roll the dice and see how long this cutting edge research takes. You might find yourself liberating some paydata from a corporate magical lab to assist in the process.
On the up side, if you succeed in this, you can probably stack some Adept powers that were never meant to be stacked. Your contacts get published as the cover article in The Journal of the Dunkelzahn Institute of Magical Research, so they'll be pretty happy about it. As for you, you get a point of Distinctive Style for looking like an absolute badass with a cyberarm shot through with Orichalcum.
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Which is why if you want to, for example, turn your motorcycle into a Force 6 Qi Focus (Improved Ability (Pilot Groundcraft) 3), you typically pay an NPC, rather than doing the work yourself.
The problem with that is finding an NPC who's skilled enough to do that kind of job, and affording their increased rates.
That's something your GM will have to decide, though - I didn't see any rules about a changing Availability or Cost difference beyond reading "if the item you want as a focus is expensive, you'll have to pay for that too in addition to the regular focus costs".
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I feel like built in knucks should be a common cyberweapon....
Wanna help me do a write-up of what they would be like?
Cyberknucks
(STR+1P), AP -, Essence .2, Capacity [2], Availability 6R, 1000¥
Maybe even retractable like some of the other weapons.... or simply difficult to notice. Maybe a concealability modifier.
What do you think?
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Which is why if you want to, for example, turn your motorcycle into a Force 6 Qi Focus (Improved Ability (Pilot Groundcraft) 3), you typically pay an NPC, rather than doing the work yourself.
The problem with that is finding an NPC who's skilled enough to do that kind of job, and affording their increased rates.
That's something your GM will have to decide, though - I didn't see any rules about a changing Availability or Cost difference beyond reading "if the item you want as a focus is expensive, you'll have to pay for that too in addition to the regular focus costs".
Well, I would put it more along the lines of restricting the Force of possible Foci. Object Resistance and in addition the Force as opposed dicepool? This severly cuts into the possible results, especially with the risk of high drain.
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Cyberarm can be a focus if made into a focus before you install and pay essence for it. Very high object resistance will make it hard to enchant, but not impossible...
But an arm or leg is not a weapon . Only weapon can be made into a weapon focus.
Cyberspur is a weapon . Cyberspur can be a weapon focus.
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It seems to me anything can be a weapon. I can hit someone with a chair, so it's a weapon. So I could have a chair as a weapon focus. It's be quite the waste of resources, but whatever, you can do it.
It seems to me that if cyber spurs can be a focus (and it's pretty clear they can) there's no reason that you can't have a cyberarm focus.
If you really think it's all that big a deal, couldn't you have Knucks built into the hand, enchant those? (reinforced knuckles, really)
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your cyberspur is a weapon.
your cyberspur can be a weapon focus.
it will help you with your Unarmed Combat (Cyber Melee Weapon) skill.
your cybertorso is not a weapon...
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Really feels like splitting hairs to me to say a shock hand is a weapon, but a cyber hand is not.
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Except a shock-hand isn't the entire hand, it's basically a capacitor and some taser nodes built into the palm/fingers. It isn't articulated fingers and joints that function due to the connection to your nervous system.
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And that's not splitting hairs how, exactly? The bottom line of this argument is not one of rules, but of opinions.
Some think limbs are not weapons, others do. Some think there should be a difference in cost depending on the complexity of the weapon, others don't.
The facts are, as Xenon pointed out, that the rules only specify that the weapon focus has to be a melee weapon. There is no mention that making a complex weapon into a weapon focus is any different in terms of cost and availability compared to a simple one. This is entirely a GM call.
If it was my table, I'd let a character begin the game with a cyberlimb weapon focus at the standard cost. To get one made after the game began it would have to be enchanted while not implanted, potentially requiring surgery. Would it be impossible? No. Would it be difficult? Probably not. Why? Because a cyberlimb weapon focus is no different to my mind compared to a cyberweapon weapon focus; in fact, the spur is going to be more effective, so I don't personally see any reason for restricting this at all.
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Meh.
I say go for it. As a weapon focus, the cyberarm will only give you bonus dice when you use it in melee combat and has no baring in any other action you do.
However, expect to pay for the cyberarm AND weapon focus costs. (Which I am sure you were).
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In Street Grimoire's section on talismongering, it discusses the difficulties inherent with enchanting. Apparently the material of the object does have some factor, it must be ritually cleaned, etc. So it might be hard to enchant a cyber-weapon with any kind of success for the simple fact that the material is highly processed, and probably not been ritually prepared. That doesn't stop it from happening, but it does provide some sort of guideline on how to handle the request as a GM.
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Yeah, i think everyone agrees it is hard. The higher tech something, the harder to affect it with magic. But you still can.
And like martinchaen described, it's not even especially effective.
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your cyberspur is a weapon.
your cyberspur can be a weapon focus.
it will help you with your Unarmed Combat (Cyber Melee Weapon) skill.
your cybertorso is not a weapon...
What about my Cyberskull if I use it to headbutt someone.
Sorry, I had to go there. ::)
I'd have to ask the OP, why would you want the entire limb to be a Weapon Focus when Cyber-Weapons do so much better damage ?
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What about my Cyberskull if I use it to headbutt someone.
than You should better wait for the Augmentationsbook.
In SR4A there was retrectable Cyberhorns or Cyberfangs (for Vampire wannabees/Poser)
You can make a Cyberhorn Weaponfocus (same like Weaponfokus retractable Spurs)
I'd have to ask the OP, why would you want the entire limb to be a Weapon Focus when Cyber-Weapons do so much better damage ?
Thats what I 'd like to know too ,make it a +1 from Me :D
with a curious Dance
Medicineman