Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: elrikthebastard on <08-04-14/1636:38>
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Afternoon!
SR5
Helmets and Face Masks. They add up on encumbrance. But in the real world they tend to go hand in hand... Any advice?
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Eh, in my experience, a helmet is far more inconvenient than body armor. I could wear a flak with SAPIs all day, but those few extra ungainly pounds on my head were a pain in the neck (figuratively and literally). Even with good straps, they're a pain. And those masks can interfere with breathing if you're pushing yourself (never had to do a mask run, thankfully enough).
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Thanks MijRai,
I've not seen rules for the inconvenience of the helmet or face mask in the game. I will say that the face mask I wore kept my face from being turned blue.
You see the Military or Security forces wearing Helmets and face masks, and then Shadowrun adds weird rules to them...
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Mostly the encumbrance is a catchall for the inconvenience of wearing them.
You however don't see many soliders running around with Balli masks, but tend to have more gas masks on. And gas masks don't add encumbrance.
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Thanks Triskavanski
The news has been showing military groups using it more and more. I doubt a long ranging patrol wants to wear face mask, but you get into the tight and dirty you want to keep your face and head. I also think that in 2075, the construction of the Ballistic Mask as we know it has changed. Better materials, install of sensors, you can put a respirator into one, vision enhancements, 180 visual range, limitless in my mind. How do you keep that pretty face when the fight gets close and nasty, the rolls don't always go your way.
I was thinking more along the line of this,
http://www.defensereview.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Revision_Military_Batlskin_Modular_Head_Protection_System_MHPS_Ballsitic_Visor_and_Mandible_Guard_Maxillofacial_Protection_System_21.jpg
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Its also more of a "balance" issue then real life.
Its a game of choices... for headware it's the choice of more armor? Or better vision? Or gas protection?
All are good choices, but when you start to allow everything, elements that matter become mute.
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Thanks Reaver
I realize there are rules for a reason. I just feel that sometimes the game is trying to micromanage us. These helms and face gear are not that heavy, and if you are trained with them they can be worn with ease. To top is all of, with AR you can dominate the situation cleanly and clearly. I am not enjoying this game as much as I had hoped.
Thank you everyone.
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Thanks Reaver
I realize there are rules for a reason. I just feel that sometimes the game is trying to micromanage us. These helms and face gear are not that heavy, and if you are trained with them they can be worn with ease. To top is all of, with AR you can dominate the situation cleanly and clearly. I am not enjoying this game as much as I had hoped.
Thank you everyone.
Everyone's a critic....
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If by encumbrance you mean the "bonuses to armor beyond your STR begin to impose penalties" then that is 100% game balance. Realism has to take a back seat to making the game playable-- There's big discussions on this in the forum if you disagree. It's already based around an abstraction anyways. "+2 armor" is meaningless in real life.
If you're talking about actual "carrying capacity" type encumbrance... That almost never comes up, and is totally ignorable if the GM thinks you're doing a reasonable thing.
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You suffer a penalty for every two full points of armor over Strength. Even someone with a Strength of 1 can wear a helmet without penalty. I don't have the stats for a ballistic mask, but assuming it also gives +2, it would be three points over a Strength of 1. So even someone with a Strength of 1 or 2 would only suffer a -1 penalty (still enough to make wearing both not worth it), and someone with a Strength of 3 would not suffer any penalties at all. So the encumbrance penalties for armor aren't that bad.
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@Ishmell
Yes. When I spend money on something and have been playing off and on for 20 years, I feel a certain entitlement. =-)
I don't feel so entitles to run over to facebook and puke over their board. That is just a AHole thing to do.
Thanks Glyph and Firebug.
I think I will ignore the encumbrance for the moment. Exhaustion not with standing.
I just like to ask, sometimes people come up with better, more elegant ideas then I do. Only one way to learn.
Thanks again everyone!
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elrikthebastard
Just as a practical, real-world comparison exercise, try the following: put on a motorcycle helmet and wear it for a whole day. Alternatively, do a 100m dash, or a 1mile run while wearing it.
The next day, strap on a set of football pads and put on the helmet again, and finally grab a ballistic shield (or, if you don't have one, a nice big piece of ply-wood or similar), and repeat the exercises above.
It's not that these items weigh particularly much, it's the way in which they affect you. Trying to do gymnastics with a motorcycle helmet or while wearing football pads is another great example of how such items limit your mobility.
Just be aware that allowing + armor items without encumbrance can lead to some pretty significant AV increases.
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Thanks Martinchaen,
Yea, I'm not an idiot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lov4qdSdaI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm11yAXeegg - this made me laugh
http://knowledgenuts.com/2014/05/17/knights-armor-was-much-much-lighter-than-you-think/ - used this for a game I was running.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2456852/Iron-Man-army-US-military-developing-armor-allows-special-ops-commandos-walk-stream-bullets-dark-heal-wounds-monitor-vital-signs.html - WHOOT MilSpec!
http://dkxarmor.com/#page-about-dkx-solutions - super light, light the future of armour or something.
http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2013/06/17/dkx-armor-plates/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+BlueSheepdog+%28BlueSheepdog+-+Police+Training+and+Officer+Safety%29 - testing the protective value of this armour.
http://uwm.tv/ - this is pretty interesting, and the build is based upon the work of a local guy to my home town.
The mix of links goes beyond my original topic, but some of it is pretty cool.
Our characters, at least I hope, are in significantly better shape then me. In my case, that is not hard.
Military Helmets average 12 pounds.
Flight Helmets are 19 Pounds
My Helm is 14 pounds
I have warn a helm for days on end. I have fought in a helm days on end. With full armour. At the time my kit weighed 60 odd pounds before the helm. That included cross country running, woods battles, and I wear glasses.
I do not dispute that players in an abundance of armour will have problems. Never said I was going to make it easy or simple for them. Just that I had issue with the Encumbrance of the game rules. If no one else does then that is fine. I am a big old man, and I can take my toys and go and play in my own sand box.
Comparing the gear and tech from 2014 to 2075 is silly. Doesn't mean we will get to wear that super cool helm as we do their Olympic routine for a good score from the Russian Judge. I would love to see that, the balance all over the place.
I had worked out a way to buy lesser armoured helms. +1 instead of +2. Dropped the price by 50 yen. One less slot.
Thanks
E
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Yea, I'm not an idiot.
Never said you were, just provided a caution.
I'd also like to point out that comparing real-world tech to Shadowrun tech is perfectly viable in many cases. Real world calibers, for instance, compare very favourably to the damage values of the various Shadowrun rifles and machine gun equivalents, and a motorcycle helmet can be expected to still do what a motorcycle helmet of today does, with the possible exception of having HUDs with all kinds of technogadgets (though those are coming, slowly but surely).
As for characters being in better shape than what you are; again, that's an easy comparison to make. Take the scale presented in the book, where STR 1 through 6 represents generally weak through world-class athlete level strength. Where do you fit on the scale? A STR 1 character can easily wear a helmet all day every day and not even be affected by it (takes AV +3 to affect a STR character as per the core rules). To put that into perspective, a STR 1 character can wear Full Body Armor with helmet (+2 AV) with no penalty. It's only when he straps on Mil-Spec armor or similar (where the helmet is +3 AV) that he suffers a very minimal penalty of -1. If he additionally tries to wield a shield and straps on other multiple layers (+3 from PPP kit, for instance, and a riot shield), however, then the penalties start piling up (+3 +6 + 3 for a total of +12, for a total negative AGI and REA modifier of (1+2=3+2=5+2=7+2=9+2=11) 5). Again, it's not that all this stuff is heavy to my mind, it's that if you're not a particularly strong character it'll slow you down. This is represented by the reduction applying to your AGI and REA as opposed to your STR.
I'd also like to, again, point out that I don't necessarily think weight is a good representation of what encumbrance is supposed to represent, it's how much the item affects your movement ability. A big old riot shield, for instance, conveying a +6 AV, would severely restrict the abilities of a STR 1 character, unlike even the weakest Troll (who in real world terms would be comparable to some of the strongest athletes in the world). As someone who races motorcycles I'm intimately (unfortunately) aware of how much a full-face helmet limits your field of view as well as the mobility of your neck, both on the bike and off.
Ultimately, of course it's up to you what to do in your game; again, I never implied otherwise. I just wanted to make sure you'd considered the implications of such a choice, as characters can easily layer on 5+ AV (7+ if you allow Ballistic Masks to be used with Helmets), which means less damage is dealt in combat, and more damage is converted to Stun damage which in turn has it's own ripple effects.
Cheers,
Martin
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Thanks again Martin.
The tone struck me. Sorry if I over reacted.
The riot shield I have no issue with. Those things are bloody heavy.
I know more about snowmobile helmets... close enough, and yes, your constantly turning your head, looking up and down. And your field is this window.
Maybe I need to change gears here. Heavy duty glasses with a lower protective part.
My players want something like this.
http://www.kiestu.com/videopage/on/njDnbT_t9gg.html
Can you say Video Gamish?
http://www.ea.com/army-of-two-devils-cartel
I want something more in line with this. Only bullet proof.
http://www.365airsoftshop.com/metal-half-face-mask-bk-p-75.html
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That first link is actually my own go-to for a ballistic mask model. If they want just that, then that's a ballistic mask only in my view.
The latter link you posted could easily be represented by "just" a helmet, along with goggles and a respirator, for example.
The only reason for stacking a helmet and a ballistic mask it to get more armor.
Ask yourself this question: should my players be allowed to put on two pieces of gear that will then exceed the armor value provided by a full military helmet?
Because that's the effect. And it's why I personally won't allow the two to be worn at the same time. Full Body Armor, SWAT Armor, Riot Control Armor, and Security Armor helmets all provide +3 armor, and most of these cost considerably more than a basic helmet and ballistic mask, though they do provide the option of a chemical seal.
Again, your call but I personally see no reason for making the kind of modifications to the rules you're proposing. A STR 2 character can wear a full helmet without any issue, so the armor encumbrance rules only really come into play if they start piling on armor add-ons. To my mind, that should come at a price.
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I am not that generous. I would not stack the armour. I would only consider it in the case of a face shot/head shot. I am not interested in head kit that represented a +4.
I have been readings the rules again and again and I do understand your point. I also find it odd that you can stack the head armour.
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Well you can stack a shield on top of everything including a helmet since it is simple additions, so why shouldn't you stack a mask and a helmet if you allow both to be worn? What about armor from a cyberskull wouldn't that count either then?
Military and security helmets are already described as being full-faced so there isn't a need for them to be wearable at the same time unless you are simply trying to get more capacity out of it, which would be another reason not to allow it.
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PiXeL01; my issue with players wanting to stack a ballistic mask and a helmet is that it then becomes a piece of equipment that is less expensive but provides more protection than all helmets in the game with the exception of the Mil-Spec helmet, which is Hardened.
I'd also challenge the simple practicality of wearing a ballistic mask AND a helmet, simply because of their designs. Any current (modern) helmet design that incorporates a face shield would to my mind be better classified as Full Body, Riot Control, SWAT, or Security Armor, instead of players trying to finagle a +4 AV bonus out of two pieces of equipment costing a grand total of 350¥, or the same as a single kit of PPP Vitals protection...
That's about it, for me at least.
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I'm with martinchaen on this one. If you're wearing a MICH with all the trimmings, you aren't anxious to add to that. Also, the game balance issue is significant.
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Sunday night was game night. Some interesting points. Most of my players grew upon on 4e. In 4e the helmet is described as having an open face or a closed face. The player decides and of course you can not (normally) remove the face plate. In my player's minds, their PC's are using full helmets that cover the face. So unless you can strap a Ballistic mask over that, no dice.
While talking, I had a dim memory of going hunting in the middle of winter, 30 years ago, and having to take my snowmobile helmet off because I was not able to lay down and shoot my rifle. For me at least, the helmet hit my shoulders/back and road up over my face. This all made it sit wrong on my head. I could be a mutant.
Another one of my buddies made a strong point that most ballistic face masks, are considered 3/4 masks. It fits like a (hockey) Goal Mask. Meaning full face coverage, that rolls back to cover most of the hears, up above your forehead and at least half way up your skull, and may even drop down to protect the neck. The entire mask is held in place by at least four straps that attached to a "back plate" that is positioned on the back of your head. Wearing a true Ballistic Mask makes it impossible to wear a helmet of any sort.
Their are the half varieties, but they tend to only cover the direct face, and still do not sit properly with a helm.
He was very certain that many people, especially me, got/get confused between true Ballistic Masks and the Airsoft/Paintball variety. He called me an ignorant ass, easily confused by the web. He then told me to stop playing video games. You can tell your friends by the friendly and even commentary.
This particular buddy is a purist. He also put things into perspective for me.
So this is back on me. I obviously have one thing in mind, while reality has another.
The game rules in 5e do not say if you can wear the two together or not. Not sure if that is an over site or they feel common sense should win out on this one.
At our table, last night, we decided that you can not wear the two together. This also put the Encumbrance into a different light.
So I will say, Thank you everyone. I will go back to work now and stop complaining.
E
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I will go back to work now and stop complaining.
Whoa there! Hold your horses there mate! What's the point of having a stable internet connection if you don't use it to complain on the internet while avoiding work? ;D
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Fair enough.
... confident that I will be back soon.
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I will go back to work now and stop complaining.
Whoa there! Hold your horses there mate! What's the point of having a stable internet connection if you don't use it to complain on the internet while avoiding work? ;D
cat videos?
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terribly allergic!
Squirrel videos?