Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: eviltikiman on <08-06-14/1845:56>
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So im a new GM running a group for a bunch of newbies, and one of my players, who wanted to use Shotguns for close quarter dominance. However they are unconvinced that they are of any real use, because rifles are superior in just about every way. Do you find this to be true? what is the function of the shotgun? Are they really good at close quarters? Does it fill any larger role or is little more than a nitch weapon? Please help!!!!!!!!
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Clearing rooms and close combat with moving targets.
In RL, semi-auto shotguns with custom chokes were used by MACV-SOG teams in Vietnam to effectively clear rooms, including barracks packed with soldiers, before a defense could be mounted. Of course, the ballistic armors of the SR world change things a bit.
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Shotguns loaded with shot ammo (+2 DV, +5 AP) give you the choke and spread game mechanic which let you hit multiple targets without splitting your dice pool and with a negative dice pool modifier to their defense pool at the cost of lower damage values and reduced armor penetration. Mostly useful against a few low armored targets (high risk of just dealing stun damage against armored targets) that stand within a few meters of each other.
Compared to using a shotgun loaded with Slugs you can, game mechanic wise in SR5, walk around with a Sniper Rifle (or switch to a the medium sized weapon skill, aka automatics skill, and use Assault Rifles) - even for close range combat. This will be superior in just about any situation compared to using a shotgun.
Biggest reason to use a shotgun is because they look cool and might fit your character concept.
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Also, a shotgun loaded with EX-X Ammunition is damned near an assault cannon for terms of sheer damage output, as well ass the variety of ammunition a shotgun can load, (more true in 4th edition then currently)
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IIRC, (afb) the wording on AP is that it counts for targets wearing armour. That makes unarmoured characters valid targets for dealing high damage and ignoring AP, as well as most critters.
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Yeah, if they're not wearing armor, they don't suddenly acquire it just because you fired a load of buckshot at them.
eviltikiman, shotguns really are the boss for close-quarters work. There are no formal disadvantages to slinging a 4'6" rifle around in close quarters, but as GM, you should penalize the dumb sonofabitch who tries. Shotguns are the way to go.
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Im open to any recommendations on what kind of penalties to apply.
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Do a forum search for shotguns and rifles. There's a couple with suggestions, one fairly recent.
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SR5 p. 165 Armor Penetration
Some weapons fare poorly against armor, and so actually raise the value of the armor. If the target is not wearing armor, this bonus does not apply.
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In my home game, I adjust the close combat shooting penalties. My Missions character never has a reason not to use her sniper rifle, even with an enemy right in her face, and that's slightly dumb. I felt that larger weapons would be trickier to use when someone is in your face, so I changed the penalties as follows (I gave shotguns some breathing room, though, since they require less precision to hurt one's foe):
Tasers and Holdouts are not penalized
Light pistols suffer only -1
Heavy Pistols and Shotguns suffer -2
Machine Pistols and Submachine guns get -3
Assault Rifles suffer -4
Non-Shotgun Longarms and Heavy Weapons suffer -5 (don't bring a sniper rifle to a fistfight)
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Another rule could be that in every Initiative Pass you move while you are considered Running you first have to spend a Simple Action to Ready Weapon before you can fire Assault Rifles, Sniper Rifles or Heavy Weapons.
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Another rule could be that in every Initiative Pass you move while you are considered Running you first have to spend a Simple Action to Ready Weapon before you can fire Assault Rifles, Sniper Rifles or Heavy Weapons.
Can't say I'm a fan of that.
In my mind, if you're readying a weapon, it's something heavy, big, sniper rifle, LMG, rocket launcher, etc. It's not just point and shooting, it's about aiming the weapon, adjusting your position to properly brace yourself for the recoil. It's about the final steps to actually fire the weapon.
Personally I'd look more towards.... an initiative bonus of some sort for having a proper weapon ready. An initiative penalty for not having an appropriate weapon ready. It's something that's hard to explain simply. If you've got a shotgun for very close ranges, I'd give you a slight bonus, you're naturally able to move and react faster. They're designed for faster movement and targeting.
Slower weapons, you take a bit longer, hope that armour can soak some damage for you as you take a hit or two, from those with pistols and the training for close quarter combat. So, most of the time you might be fine, those response teams, high level guards, the odd hobby shooter. It's a little more GM's call than anything else, but what isn't in this game?
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In my mind, if you're readying a weapon...
If you are readying a pistol you go from Holstered to Ready.
If you are readying a larger weapon (assault rifle, sniper rifle, LMG) you go from Sling Ready or Low Ready to Ready (a weapon that you for example carry in a bag would take more than a Simple action to Ready).
http://firearmshistory.blogspot.ca/2012/03/shooting-positions-ready-positions.html
...and adepts with the Rapid Draw power (from R&G) can spend a Free action (rather than a Simple action) to Ready larger weapon (assault rifle, sniper rifle, LMG) from Low Ready to Ready.
To make smaller weapons more mobile in CQB I argue that if you move while considered running with a larger weapon (assault rifle, sniper rifle, LMG) you no longer brace the weapon against your shoulder with the finger on the trigger and need to [again] brace the weapon to your shoulder and put the finger on the trigger (= Ready Weapon simple action).
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As far as CQB with long guns go, in RL the main issue with them is corners and the ability to shift (redirect) fire quickly to counter threats coming from the side. A LMG set up at the ens of a hall can kill everything in it's cone of fire; but, try to clear a room with one where you have to swing it around quicly and you lose the initiative vs. Short-barreled weapons.
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Shotguns are my favorite weapon for snipers to take as a close-quarters weapon, since it works on the same skill. I typically always get a shotgun with the clip or drum loading mechanism, for reload speed, if nothing else. A shotgun provides relatively high damage at a low cost, and the legalities are often lower than assault rifles. Using flechettes is a good way for a low-initiative or low-skill character to engage multiple opponents at once, and for high skill, high initiative users, it has some advantage over SnS or gel rounds if you need to clear a room, but not necessarily kill everyone, since most people with any armor (even a lined coat) stand a good chance of only taking Stun damage. I mention low-initiative, low-skill characters, because I often use a shotgun for my face or hacker/TM characters, since it has clear benefits over a pistol, and it is hard to justify anything bigger with just a 2 skill, for instance.
So, pros and cons. For a sammy? Go with an assault rifle, definitely, and use the shotgun only if you need a Masterkey. For someone who does most of their work in the social or matrix arenas? You could do FAR worse than using a shotgun. For mages? A shotgun or other weapon goes a long way towards convincing people you aren't a mage, especially if you don't go around with arcane symbols on your lined coat or wearing traditional shaman gear, etc. Convincing people you aren't a mage (until you start slinging spells) means you go further down the 'to geek' list than the troll with the assault cannon. It'll only last a couple passes, but that's still worlds better than getting geeked first, right?
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What do you feel is the "best" shotgun for a Runner to take ?
Of the CRB Shotguns there isn't a lot of choice.
The "Short" version of the Defiance isn't bad as a back up but its got an Internal Mag so no quick swaps of ammo, and its still "big"
The Enfield is sweet but its illegal & will draw serious attention.
Krime Boss is soso, pretty inaccurate, and how much is a "Drum" anyway ? I can't find the cost for one. Assuming its more than a spare clip at 5$
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Shotguns are my favorite weapon for snipers to take as a close-quarters weapon
Sniper rifles are my favorite weapon for snipers to take as close-quarters weapon ;)
Compared to a shotgun; sniper rifles have higher accuracy, higher damage and more armor penetration. Only thing talking for shotguns compared to sniper rifles is that they are cheaper, but if you already invested into a sniper rifle then it will be more expansive to also get a shotgun.
In SR5 you can run n gun with a sniper rifle at close range just as easy as you can run n gun with a pistol, SMG... or shotgun (actually you are probably better off with a sniper rifle in urban combat since close distance is all the way up to 50(!) meters)
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Sniper rifles are my favorite weapon for snipers to take as close-quarters weapon ;)
Compared to a shotgun; sniper rifles have higher accuracy, higher damage and more armor penetration. Only thing talking for shotguns compared to sniper rifles is that they are cheaper, but if you already invested into a sniper rifle then it will be more expansive to also get a shotgun.
In SR5 you can run n gun with a sniper rifle at close range just as easy as you can run n gun with a pistol, SMG... or shotgun (actually you are probably better off with a sniper rifle in urban combat since close distance is all the way up to 50(!) meters)
Except that doesn't work well in real life. While yes, the game stats don't specify you can't do it, common sense says you're going to take penalties, if it's possible. You ever try aiming a rifle with a high-power scope on it close-up? It's pretty difficult. Some people prefer to keep an eye on what makes sense, not just what is possible in the rules.
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So yeah, Xenon is one of the reasons we have 'what penalties should I inflict on the stupid fraggin' git trying to sling around a sniper rifle in close-quarters combat' threads. Let's not turn this one into one of those, with a bleating of 'but the rules don't say you can't!!' because no sane GM is going to let you get away with it. (I guess Xenon's GMs aren't sane.)
MijRai, your only real option is the Remington 990 - clip-fed (8 in the clip, too!!) and only Restricted - relatively cheap, and a bit harder punch than the Defiance. Since it's pretty much a standard single-barrel shotgun, you could negotiate with your GM in regards to sawing the sucker off.
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So yeah, Xenon is one of the reasons we have 'what penalties should I inflict on the stupid fraggin' git trying to sling around a sniper rifle in close-quarters combat' threads. Let's not turn this one into one of those, with a bleating of 'but the rules don't say you can't!!' because no sane GM is going to let you get away with it. (I guess Xenon's GMs aren't sane.)
MijRai, your only real option is the Remington 990 - clip-fed (8 in the clip, too!!) and only Restricted - relatively cheap, and a bit harder punch than the Defiance. Since it's pretty much a standard single-barrel shotgun, you could negotiate with your GM in regards to sawing the sucker off.
Agreed, although I wasn't the one asking about shotguns. I know the shotguns I like.
By the way, I think the 990 being a magazine-fed (c) weapon is probably a typo- if you look at the picture, it has a tube magazine (an (m) magazine), and in Fourth Edition it was an (m) loader as well. Isn't it supposed to be the 'modern' upgrade to the Remington 870 anyways?
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So yeah, Xenon is one of the reasons we have 'what penalties should I inflict on the stupid fraggin' git trying to sling around a sniper rifle in close-quarters combat' threads.
Actually, having penalties for that makes sense to me: I have 0 experience with real guns, but in FPS games I find it easier to aim with a pistol, shotgun or assault rifle in close ranges than I do with a sniper rifle.
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As a veteran marksman who served 4 years in Afganistan I'll just weigh in on one thing here.
Yes, clearing rooms with a sniper rifle is unlikely to be very effective, but if you're the team sniper you shouldn't be doing that anyway. During CQB maneuvers the sniper and spotter more often than not provides overwatch for the rest of the team, covering exits and making sure the team isn't surprised y serving in an information gathering role and force multiplier as usual.
I carried a pistol as my sidearm during my service, and I never once fired it in combat. I also didn't clear houses on a regular basis. That being said, I have run breach and clear simulations with both my rifle (a Sako TRG-42 with a 28 inch barrel) and my pistol (an H&K .45 USP Expert). My experience is that it's perfectly possible to sight down the barrel (having first detached the scope, primarily so as not to damage it) of the rifle similar to how one would when shooting clay pidgeons with a shotgun.
Is it practical? No, not entirely. Is it impossible? Not at all. Do I think a system like Shadowrun, the combat rules of which are already massively abstracted, needs penalties for using traditionally "long" weapons in CQB operations? No.
Personal opinion only; if you're going for realism in Shadowrun you're going to have to change a whole lot of things, and this is something that would be pretty far down the list in my opinion.
And for those of you who've never fired a gun in real life, the good news is that TrackingPoint has you covered. Now you can be an expert marksman for just 30,000USD. :-)
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And for those of you who've never fired a gun in real life, the good news is that TrackingPoint has you covered. Now you can be an expert marksman for just 30,000USD. :-)
Wow that thing is stupid big. And to think the record for the most confirmed sniper kills was done with a bolt action and iron sights.
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To be fair, that record was set in a somewhat target rich environment the likes of which we'll hopefully never see again.
Comparing a sniper from the WWII-era with a modern day sniper is somewhat like comparing apples to oranges; not a whole lot of overlap between the two in terms of training, equipment, organization, capabilities, and role. Though there are some similarities, modern day snipers fulfill a significantly different role because the circumstances of war have changed so dramatically.
That's not to say the likes of Simo Haya and Vasily Zaytsev weren't instrumental both on their respective battlefields and in terms of shsping future doctrine, but let's not forget that modern warfare simply doesn't involve millions upon untold millions of combatants the way they did during that particular time.
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Simo Haya
*KRHM* Simo Häyhä
Go Finland!
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Ok, so I misspelled his name. Ease up there fellah.
Simo was good, no doubt, but people like Zaytsev and even Hathcock had a much bigger impact on sniper doctrine. Anyway, this is getting rather off-topic, so I'll leave it at that.
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We do use house rules to make pistols, smgs and shotguns "better" compared to assault rifles, sniper rifles and heavy weapons in CQB; I just pointed out that with core SR5 rules you are free to use a sniper rifle more efficient in CQB than a shotgun (except against multiple unarmored targets where shot ammo and choke-setting would come into play).
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"You know, the enemy's always been terrified of noise, especially shotguns. With this big boy spitting out 250 rounds a minute, you tell me who's tolerating that. Absolutely zero. You know what? I trust you. I want you to meet my girlfriend. Omya Kaboom. When Omya's primer is struck, she sets off a miniature warhead that arms itself. And when that happens, anything that gets in my lady's way becomes instant red sauce and Jell-O."
:)
I wonder how many requisions from field units came in for that shotgun after the movie came out?
-k
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"You know, the enemy's always been terrified of noise, especially shotguns. With this big boy spitting out 250 rounds a minute, you tell me who's tolerating that. Absolutely zero. You know what? I trust you. I want you to meet my girlfriend. Omya Kaboom. When Omya's primer is struck, she sets off a miniature warhead that arms itself. And when that happens, anything that gets in my lady's way becomes instant red sauce and Jell-O."
:)
I wonder how many requisions from field units came in for that shotgun after the movie came out?
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Only the Marines use the AA-12.
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Have they gotten field deployment yet? Last I heard they were still in procurement hell.
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Don't know. To my knowledge they are not on anyone's MTOE in the regular army, so they aren't even a concern. I've never read anyone using them beyond Marine testing.
As for the rules. One of the major advantages to shotguns is that you don't have to be a sniper to hit your target. A 2 3/4" .00 buckshot shell contains 9 .33 caliber pellets, a 3" shell contains 12. IMO the rules for medium and wide choke settings reducing defense rolls is somewhat fair. You could houserule that you get a bonus to dice instead.