Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: prionic6 on <08-17-14/0907:46>
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Through a series of very unfortunate events my face now has a cyberarm. I'm thinking about getting a shock hand for it and would like talk about it's effectiveness for a certain use-case I have in mind. I'm not very good at unarmed combat, although that would certainly have come in "handy" when I was un-armed (queue slow clap). But I could use it to deal with people that are more of a nuisance than a threat. To be clear, let's say there is a particularly nosey guy that I need to get rid of in a nonlethal way. I want him unconscious, to be clear. So I schmooze up to him and put my arm around him (on an unarmored spot) and because I'm such a nice guy he isn't suspicious until it's to late and I unload my shock hand on him. Now, let's say he has WIL 3 and BOD 3, so one 9s attack is not going to make him unconscious, even if he just gets to roll body to stage it down. But can I get a second attack in before he can even react / make noise? It depends on a few factors:
Is initiative rolled after my first attack or does it somehow count as my first "action" into the combat round?
Is he surprised? In my experience, professionals are hard to surprise in SR 5. Might be easier with him, so let's hope he gets that -10 to his initiative.
How fast is he in general, compared to me? I might prepare with a dose of cram or something to have an edge here, as I'm not the quickest guy myself.
Does he use edge?
All his effects:
-10 initiative score if surprised
-5 initiative score from electrical damage
-1 die on defense tests (yet he doesn't get one if surprised)
So in summary, this tactic could work pretty well in specific situations for getting rid of passerbys, annoying landlords and maybe even a low level rent-a-cop in mall. What do you think? Is there anything I should keep in mind?
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So I schmooze up to him and put my arm around him (on an unarmored spot) and because I'm such a nice guy he isn't suspicious until it's to late and I unload my shock hand on him.
What's the word on tazing someone while in bodily contact with them?
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Really depends on the GM and how reliant they are on rolls vs. roleplay.
Rolls-wise, it might be a social roll to con the target into letting you wrap your cold, unnatural appliance of an arm around him. Then you apply the "defender unaware of attack" rule on pg.189 and the Touch Attack bonus (+2) on pg.187. You only need a grazing hit.
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you only need to make an unarmed attack against a target that is trying to avoid getting touched by you...
so.... you put your friendly hand on him. activate the shock glove. resolve the damage.
after that, combat start... roll initiative. target is dazed by the previous shock (-5 initiative score) and might or might not be surprised. you need to use unarmed combat to touch him (or keep the grip of him) a second time. you "win" on a tie and you get a positive dice pool modifier of 2 dice. good luck.
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I'd play it so that the surprise rules take effect before the attack is resolved. After all, that is kind of the point where adepts with Combat Sense is concerned; they can sense danger instinctively.
Essentially, you'd get to roll your REA+INT +6 for setting an Ambush, and depending on how covert you were I might or might not give the target a chance to perceive that you intend to hurt him (perception (visual) to notice that your hand is in fact a shock glove, or perception (hearing) to react to the sound of your shock glove powering up). Either way, you'd be at an advantage, and if the target was surprised you'd get in a solid attack, with the possibility of using Edge to Push The Limit to far exceed the 9S(e) base DV of the glove.
Additionally, I'd allow martial arts actions such as Finishing Move (-10 to your own initiative, spend one Edge), which would allow you to instantly make a follow-up attack. At 18S(e) base DV, you're likely to take your mark out in a "single" hit.
Finally, Called Shots can work wonders for this purpose. Location called shot to the Neck, for instance, has a DV limit of 10 and can Stun the target to even further reduce his initiative.
I'm personally a fan of reducing the number of "alpha strikes" to as few as possible. Most characters, NPCs and PCs both, should have a chance to avoid certain death, with the sole exception of directed sniper rifle (or heavy weapon) fire. Even Adepts are going to have a tough time dodging rounds fired from a mile away, though I would never use this against player characters myself.
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Pretty sure you don't need to use unarmed combat to touch someone with your hand when you stand behind them in the elevator (but an awakened target with combat sense would probably get a perception test and -if successful- a chance to avoid getting touched by you)
Also see this: Some spells can only be cast on targets that you’re touching. You don’t need to see these targets, but you might need to make an unarmed attack to make contact with an unwilling target.
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Xenon
if it counts as an attack, I feel that I am completely justified as a GM in calling for Surprise and Initiative before resolving the attack, as per the combat rules.
As far as I'm concerned, there's no rule in the book that explicitly permits an attack action outside of combat, as all ambushes should be resolved using the Ambush rules. You are of course free to do otherwise based on technicalities such as the one you've quoted above, but I find that for consistency's sake (and to allow Adepts and Magicians the benefit of abilities like the Combat Sense power and spell) I'll follow the combat resolution rules for anything and everything that counts as an attack.
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Fair enough
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Wait, can shock hand / glove damage be staged up with net hits? I assumed not, but I can't find a rule saying so - only for toxins.
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prionic6
Under core rules, yes.
Nothing in core states that you don't stage up the DV from shock gloves and stick-n-shock, so the general rule that DV is increased by net hits applies.
Under Run & Gun rules; not if you're a trained martial artist, apparently.
When a character with a Martial Art training attacks an opponent using a weapon such as a shock glove or stun baton, they have a choice of damage to apply. They can either opt for the normal, non-electric damage of the attack, taking full advantage of any Martial Arts techniques they use, or they can apply the shock damage without the net hits or increases from techniques.
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Well, why am I not surprised? These books really need a shit-ton of errata and clarifications.
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I recall reading something about how shock gloves work & touch attacks & such but not the specifics.
Can you punch someone with your Cyber Arm, doing STR-P damage, & trigger the shock hand for added 9S Damage?
Basically the same as doing STR-S damage with a normal arm while wearing a Shock Glove for added 8S damage.
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The whole issue with shock gloves comes from this one line:
These electrically insulated gloves have a wire mesh that discharges electric current with a punch or a simple touch.
If you take out that bolded section and replace it with "touch attack" all questions of stacking the damage with martial arts and other Unarmed Combat attacks just disappears.
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True, Namikaze; I just think it's unfair to Shock Gloves and Stun Batons if Stick-n-shock rounds stage up damage...
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The whole issue with shock gloves comes from some people trying to purposely twist and pervert that line into something that clearly was never intended.
As for SnS rounds, now that they have damage based on the damage of the gun (no more holdout and sniper rifle doing the same damage with SnS), -5 AP instead of -half, and APDS rounds are much cheaper (and available at chargen), I'm cool with SnS doing more damage based on net hits. Remember, SnS is -2S(e) from the normal damage of the gun, instead of a shock glove at 8S(e) or a stun baton at 9S(e). For anything under an Assault Rifle, that means a Taser gives you better damage than SnS rounds.
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Agreed, Mirikon, however, shock gloves and stun batons would be some of the only weapons in the game that doesn't add net hits to damage, and I honestly just can't be bothered making a special exception.
Not to mention the fact that this rule was never once mentioned in SR5 core; it only became a thing after R&G.
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True, Namikaze; I just think it's unfair to Shock Gloves and Stun Batons if Stick-n-shock rounds stage up damage...
What do you mean by "stage up damage"? Don't Stick-n-shock rounds lower damage overall?
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True, Namikaze; I just think it's unfair to Shock Gloves and Stun Batons if Stick-n-shock rounds stage up damage...
What do you mean by "stage up damage"? Don't Stick-n-shock rounds lower damage overall?
He means that you add to the DV of Stick-n-Shock with net hits, but Run & Gun does not allow this for Shock Gloves and Stun Batons--the damage is flat.
I allow staging of those two items if you make a roll without the +2 bonus dice for touch attacks and allowing ties to go to the defender. It seems like a reasonable compromise.
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I allow staging of those two items if you make a roll without the +2 bonus dice for touch attacks and allowing ties to go to the defender. It seems like a reasonable compromise.
I don't think that's actually a house rule or anything. It may just be a direct use of given rules.
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Ahhh, I understand now. If I'm not mistaken, doesn't the use of the Unarmed Combat skill allow for net hits to be added to a shock glove attack? I may have missed something during my hiatus, but I was under the impression that because the attack is an Unarmed Combat attack it could still benefit from net hits, while also getting the benefit of a Touch Attack.
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Ahhh, I understand now. If I'm not mistaken, doesn't the use of the Unarmed Combat skill allow for net hits to be added to a shock glove attack? I may have missed something during my hiatus, but I was under the impression that because the attack is an Unarmed Combat attack it could still benefit from net hits, while also getting the benefit of a Touch Attack.
That's how I, and presumably others, did things prior to Run & Gun, but the change/clarification to touch attacks in that book made it pretty clear you can't get the +2 dice, win ties, and stage damage all at the same time. My low-Strength face had a moment of silence for his Shock Glove.
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Wow, I am going to have to re-read those rules. I must have missed something the first time, because it seemed to me that it was just defining a Touch Attack a little more strictly than the core rulebook.
I see the clarification that took place in Run & Gun now. But I also don't see that the clarification states anything about Touch-Only attacks being the only option.
Weapons such as the shock glove or baton can inflict damage during a touch-only attack. These attacks don’t benefit from net hits from the attack to increase Damage Value. Using the weapon to cause damage with a touch-only attack makes it the only attack action the character can make during that Action Phase.
I take this to mean that if you're using a Shock Glove or Stun Baton, and you do a Touch-Only Attack then you get the benefits and drawbacks of a Touch-Only Attack. If you use the weapon normally, then it uses the appropriate skill, but you don't get the benefits (or drawbacks) of the Touch-Only Attack.
After all, none of the text in Run & Gun seems to supercede this:
Attacks with shock gloves use the Unarmed Combat skill.
All it does is clarify what happens when a user uses the Touch-Only Attack Complex Action.
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Agreed, Namikaze, that's how I'm playing it anyway.
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I don't disagree. The wrinkle, of course, is the guy with aluminum bone lacing who punches a guy using Unarmed Combat while wearing a shock glove. Most sane GMs wouldn't let this fly, but I'm sure it comes up at tables.
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But that's the point, Kincaid. If you use the shock glove weapon (that's the key here), you don't also get to use your Unarmed Attack weapon.
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The way the R&G rule reads to me is that it removes any bonuses (including added DV ) provided bt the martial art in question (so no +1DV from boxing). That's it. It does not sound to me like a complete change to how damage works for a shock glove.
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So as I'm reading this I'm thinking their are 3 options, please correct me if I'm getting this wrong.
Billy the Samurai has a Cyber Limb with Shock Hand.
1. Billy can make an Unarmed Attack to do Str-P Damage. Extra Successes add to DV.
2. Billy can make a "Cyber Weapon" Attack with his Unarmed Combat Skill. Extra Successes add to DV.
3. Billy can make a "Touch Only" Attack with his Unarmed Combat Skill. Extra Successes will NOT add to DV.
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2. Billy can make a "Cyber Weapon" Attack with his Unarmed Combat Skill. Extra Successes add to DV.
Otherwise known as: "What did the five fingers say to the face? ZAP!"