Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Wazlethwack on <09-02-14/0030:50>
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Hello. First time poster. I've got some questions about the Great Ghost Dance. I apologize if this has been covered before. I did do several forum searches.
I've read most of the source books up to third edition and some of the novels.
I know (at least I think I do) that the Ghost Dance was a massive blood magic ritual. Do we know where Daniel Howling Coyote learned the ritual? From reading the Attlan book I got the feeling that *maybe* one of the immortal elves might have taught it to him.
If someone taught it to him, what price did he pay to get the information?
Thanks in advance.
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Great question. I would assume he learned it from a spirit, perhaps a mentor spirit. But that is, after all, just an assumption. I'd love to hear some of the other theories and facts (if there are any).
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Interesting idea. I hadn't thought of that. Would it need to be a blood spirit to teach a blood magic ritual?
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Given the current rule system, yes. But there aren't any mechanics for what was written almost 25 years ago. :) Barring someone with a tremendous amount of more knowledge of the world than I (Wyrm, I call to you!) I think that the ritual probably started without the blood magic, and then devolved as things went on. Probably the first shaman to die of exhaustion would have created a surge of power, and then that would have triggered more and more of a desire to perform blood magic to power the ritual. Or, the whole blood magic thing was purely by accident. That's my take on it, I don't see the event as some sort of horrid ritual sacrifice.
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Under the current understanding of spirits, it would have to have been a blood spirit, yes. Of course, there are entities far older than the current understanding of magic and spirits out there. Yes, the Ghost Dance was a massive blood magic ritual. However, I do not think it was a blood spirit which taught Daniel Howling Coyote the Dance. My guess is that it was Thais, the half-horror 'son' of Aina Dupree, one of the Immortal Elves. Especially since it mentions in Worlds Without End that he tried to do something similar before the rise of mana had gotten high enough for the Dance to work. While we're on the subject, from an Earthdawn frame of mind there are two types of blood magic: Life and Death magic. The two types are differentiated primarily on the purpose of the spell/ritual, and the willingness of the participants. What the Azzies practice is primarily Death magic. Rituals like the Ghost Dance would be Life magic, with the participants willingly contributing their lives for the greater good. To put it in more mundane terms, both the German army in WWII and the Japanese Self-Defense Force today would be considered a 'military'. A diehard pacifist would decry the existence of either one. But on a practical level, there is a big difference between the two, especially when talking about size, scale, and the types of operations they're equipped and trained to do. Yes, this example is taking things to a bit of an extreme, but I only do it to illustrate the point.
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Mirikon is correct, so far as I'm aware. Thais (who's back in the game) had reason to teach Daniel Coleman the techniques, then probably just stepped back to see if it was gonna work now. And lo and behold ...
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Ah, yes. I remember Thais from Worlds Without End. What would his motivation be to teach them the Great Ghost Dance? And what did Coleman have to do to get the info?
From what I know, you are quite correct about the Ghost Dance not being death magic. The participants were volunteers and knew the risks. It wasn't an "evil" act.
I wonder if the NAN still have the Ghost Dance technique or if Howling Coyote is the only one who knows.... I recall in one of the sourcebooks that the reason the UCAS and the Native American Nations are at peace is because of a form of mutually assured destruction. The NAN have the Ghost Dance they could use the against the UCAS. And the UCAS has nuclear weapons they could use against the NAN.
But could the Ghost Dance threat be a paper tiger? And aren't nuclear weapons supposed to be less reliable now?
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His motivation? A good question. And what would Howling Coyote have to do? Another good question - but I'm willing to bet not too much out of the way of what he would normally do. Thais seems to me to be a monkeywrencher - and Coleman had Coyote sitting on his shoulder. Trickster Coyote may be, but the results are always worth quite a lot more than the trouble he puts others through - he's not evil. Or selfish, like Raven.
As for the NAN still having it - yes, absolutely they do. To succeed, Howling Coyote couldn't have restricted the rite to himself; they never would have been able to execute the plan on the scale they did. As for the nukes, nobody really knew that they were turning erratic; after all, Israel had just recently turned Libya into a parking lot with them, North Korea's could have just been poorly built, and the Russians could have (or did) shot down the SAIM-launched ones with their super-seekrit ICBM-killing spy satellites. But the NAN is no longer a unified force, and the nations that make it up aren't willing to go through the bloodbath necessary to wipe the UCAS, CAS, and Quebec completely off the map.
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Other than Worlds Without End, is there any other material on Thais? Worlds without End is the only book I recall seeing him in. And then rather briefly.
You're probably right in that the Sovereign Tribal Council does still have the Ghost Dance ritual. But wasn't Coleman rather pissed off at the NAN when he went incommunicado? He might have not given them the ritual. It's possible the NAN's magical deterrent is a bunch of hot air.
But as I said, that's probably unlikely. But it would be interesting to see how the relationship between the NAN and it's neighbors would shift if it turned out the NAN didn't have the Dance (and it became publicly known). As far as I know there's no source material even hinting that the Ghost Dance is lost.
I bet if most of the Amerindian population was threatened they'd unify rather quickly.
I miss hearing more about the NAN, actually. I still have to catch up on all the 4th and 5th edition books but from what I've gathered the NAN has largely taken a back seat to other events. The NAN is what got me interested in Shadowrun in the first place.
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Thais is mentioned in Loose Alliances and The Clutch of Dragons.
He also taught the Ghost Dance to the Lakota in 1890, but the ambient magic level wasn't sufficient then to work.
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Assuming that's a reference to Wounded Knee?
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Yes
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Thanks for that reference. I don't think I have that book but I"ll check.
What was Thais motivation for teaching the Ghost Dance? Sympathy with an oppressed minority? Wanting to shake things up for the sake of doing so? Boredom? I'd think if you are more or less immortal boredom would be a serious issue given enough time.
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"That's a good question."
I would think he's trying to see whether the magic level has returned to sufficient scale - he may not be able to do anything, but a large number of people might.
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Interesting. In other words, a large magical ritual might be able to accomplish more with a low man level than a single magician?
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That is part of the SR canon, yes.
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Thanks for that reference. I don't think I have that book but I"ll check.
What was Thais motivation for teaching the Ghost Dance? Sympathy with an oppressed minority?
I think so.
I cannot remember and don't have a copy of the book anymore.
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IIRC Thais was trying to make a spike in the mana level, so it would be easier for other horrors to enter the 6th world way before it would naturally happen. The Great Ghost Danbce was one the the ways to make mana spikes. Dunkelzahn managed to stop that, and things should be back to normal now.
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Youuuuu would be wrong about the intent. Were that true, Thais would be cinders by now.
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Interesting. In other words, a large magical ritual might be able to accomplish more with a low man level than a single magician?
That is the entire purpose of rituals. If we go with the idea that magic is like water, and the magician is the nozzle on the hose, then it makes sense that fixing four, ten, or a hundred 'streams' onto a single goal working as one will do better than a single high-powered stream, especially for large-scale uses. When there's a fire, does the fire department send a single truck with a water cannon, or several trucks with hoses that can be used together to combat the blaze? The thing about rituals, however, is that they scale with the power of the individuals involved. For instance, when Great Dragons decide they need to use ritual magic and multiple great dragons to do it, the effects can be world-shaking. Which is why you don't see Great Dragons use ritual magic together that often (also, they don't get along that well).
IIRC Thais was trying to make a spike in the mana level, so it would be easier for other horrors to enter the 6th world way before it would naturally happen. The Great Ghost Dance was one the the ways to make mana spikes. Dunkelzahn managed to stop that, and things should be back to normal now.
That would be... extremely wrong. I don't recall if it went into Thais's motivations or not in Worlds Without End, but it was certainly not bringing back the Horrors. Mana spikes creating an opening for the Horrors was something that was only discovered after the events of Harlequin's Back (Harlequin sending runners to fight in the metaplanes at the site of the bridge), House of the Sun (Harlequin and Dirk Montgomery stopping crazy Hawaiians from doing their own Ghost Dance and letting in Horrors), and Worlds Without End (when Aina hears what Harlequin has been up to, and puts the pieces together with the bad dreams she's been having, and tells all the immortals, including Big D). This threat was ended (for the moment) when Big D blew himself up after becoming President, and the events of the Dragonheart Trilogy (Big D standing all Gandalf on the Bridge, going "You shall not pass!").
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I was under the impression that it was Mr. Darke and friends who wanted to build a bridge for the Horrors. I never did figure out exactly what group or organization was behind him. I think he had help from Aztechnology. The mana spike generated by the Ghost Dance was simply a side effect of the ritual that Darke wanted to take advantage of.
As I said, I don't know as much about Thais as I'd like to but I don't recall Thais wanting to summon horrors.
Are there any idiots that are still trying to bring the Horrors over from their metaplane?
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Are there any idiots that are still trying to bring the Horrors over from their metaplane?
Officially? Not likely.
Due to the separate ownership (licensing?) of the Earthdawn and Shadowrun IP's, it is my understanding that the SR writers & freelancers have being doing their best to cut (or at least, not expand on) ties between the two IPs. Events that happened, still happened, but going forward there won't be anything intentionally Horror or Earthdawn related. It bums me out a bit as I liked the depth it provided for the SR universe, even though I was not a fan of Earthdawn.
Unofficially? :) Do whatever you feel like doing.
-Ariketh
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Harlequin is in Clutch of Dragons so they must not be totally getting rid of the Earthdawn connections. Actually I'm not surprised they haven't completely dropped Harlequin from Shadowrun.
I can't find much on Thais online. I'd snag Caroline Spector's two Earthdawn novels but they appear to be impossible to find in print form. I dislike reading on computer screens.
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Plus they're only in German.
Harlequin has been part of SR from the beginning, and predates ED by several years. He's probably not going anywhere. As for ED connections, what came before is still fair game. The reason it's been reduced more than anything, and this is mostly speculation combined with the subjects most of the writers seem interested in, is that it's not that interesting and a grand eldritch conspiracy to summon a version of the Old Ones isn't cyberpunk or even magical in a world where the mana level is supposed to be low and growing, not reaching sigma 1 or 2 on mana's normal curve where these things can actually manifest. We're still in sigma 6 or maybe 5 (only because there are so many more sapients alive than during the Fourth World.
Anyway, Thais is mentioned in Clutch a couple of times. He's become a clandestine "associate" of the Draco Foundation, and he's wandering around performing arcanoarchaeology, dealing with his mother's death, and being pissed off at the JackPointer Elijah for an unspecified offense to his/his mother's person.
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I must admit I've always liked the connections between Earthdawn and Shadowrun. When Earthdawn stuff was put into Shadowrun it felt like interesting puzzle nuggets to look for. And it seemed Earthdawn provided a sort of look into future of the Sixth World. And dropping a horror in now and then could provide a good baddie.
That being said, I wouldn't want the game to focus entirely on the horrors or have them come barreling through the metaplanes.
I think Spector's novels did finally get published in English but they had a very limited run. Sellers on Amazon and Barnes and Noble may have some copies to sell. At about $1,000 per. Not, I'm not kidding.
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I was under the impression that it was Mr. Darke and friends who wanted to build a bridge for the Horrors. I never did figure out exactly what group or organization was behind him. I think he had help from Aztechnology. The mana spike generated by the Ghost Dance was simply a side effect of the ritual that Darke wanted to take advantage of.
As I said, I don't know as much about Thais as I'd like to but I don't recall Thais wanting to summon horrors.
Are there any idiots that are still trying to bring the Horrors over from their metaplane?
Corporate guide, page 75. Pretty much confirms that Darke worked with (for?) the Blood Mage Gestalt/Smoking Mirror/whatever-th-frag-they-call-themselves-these -days.
Personally, I kind of miss those connections to Earthdawn, even though I have little intrest in Earthdawn itself. It's kind of fun to discover stuff that goes all the way back to Fourth Age and occasionally tangle with an apocalyptic cult (that has one of the setting's biggest megacorps for backup), with a veritable army of eldritch abominations straight out of Lovecraft's nightmares looming in the background.
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Indeed. While I like a lot of the things they did in 4th, I do miss the Earthdawn connections. But the nostalgia train is in full swing on 5th, so maybe we'll get something positive out of it, to balance out the new (old) matrix and other such things?
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I must admit I've always liked the connections between Earthdawn and Shadowrun. When Earthdawn stuff was put into Shadowrun it felt like interesting puzzle nuggets to look for. And it seemed Earthdawn provided a sort of look into future of the Sixth World. And dropping a horror in now and then could provide a good baddie.
That stuff isn't gone. It's just not the focus like it was. There are nods every once in a while. Some are overt (The Vatican fighting incursions during mini-Awakenings/spikes in Loose Alliances) and others ... aren't.
I started out writing spending twenty years hating immortal shit. Guess who many if not most of my published words have ended up being about (as measured in words per character). The benefit is that you can spend years between events. There is some pretty significant fallout from the Watergate Rift closing, and all anyone talks about is Ghostwalker finding and rescuing the last parts of Zebulon. There are at least six other rather clear plotlines that have actually been discussed in books, and several that haven't been spelled out that exist.
I think Spector's novels did finally get published in English but they had a very limited run. Sellers on Amazon and Barnes and Noble may have some copies to sell. At about $1,000 per. Not, I'm not kidding.
IIRC, it's more likely they are leaked galleys than actual books.
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I didn't know Zebulon had an Earthdawn connection. I know from the old Denver source book that the spirit was mentioned. I suppose if Zebulon was Ghostwalker's old mate that said relationship probably goes back to the fourth world. Though I thought dragons didn't mate for life.....
I think that tying the fourth and sixth worlds together can give Shadowrun an extra richness and depth. Though obviously that kind of thing can be taken too far. Though I would like to see an all out war between the two Tirs. And in the process have their dirty laundry publicly aired.
Here's my suspicion as to why the two were linked in the first place: FASA was hoping that by linking them that Earthdawn could capitalize on the popularity of Shadowrun and sell more Earthdawn books. And possibly vice versa.
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I didn't know Zebulon had an Earthdawn connection. I know from the old Denver source book that the spirit was mentioned. I suppose if Zebulon was Ghostwalker's old mate that said relationship probably goes back to the fourth world. Though I thought dragons didn't mate for life.....
They don't.
Most don't, anyway.
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Maybe Ghostwalker is just a hopeless romantic? ;D
... ???
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Due to the separate ownership (licensing?) of the Earthdawn and Shadowrun IP's, it is my understanding that the SR writers & freelancers have being doing their best to cut (or at least, not expand on) ties between the two IPs. Events that happened, still happened, but going forward there won't be anything intentionally Horror or Earthdawn related.
Not Horror-related, but the Atlantean Foundation is still around and smaller plots circle around the concept of previous civilisations. But I guess we won't see any background on that.
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Well, stuff that's been revealed is still free game, but anything plucked newly from Earthdawn's not since, you know, different company and all that.
That said, there're probably a couple of people in Aztlan that are interested in bringing Horrors over, but the main power block that Mr Darke had is long gone and with him went the majority of teh knowledge base. The fanbase rejected, and rejected MIGHTILY, the entire concept way back when (When Threats introduced the concept, there was a mail-in response form that asked for ups and downs on the assorted plots, and who buddy, did they bury Horrors), and sicne then there's just really been no push for it. I kinda dug it, but I'm in the minority, and there're way bigger fish to fry in writing terms, so, I've never bothered to put together any sort of Horrors Return proposal.
AFAIK, it'd be possible, if a convincing case could be made to the upstairs offices, but it'd have to be good and no one's really driving for it.
Really, Shadowrun has enough magical badguys right now. I'm more interested in getting some tech stuff in there and much more interested in the mundane, from gangers to megacorps. Everyone can interact with that kind of foe, but astral foes (or Matrix foes) inherantly lock out a good chunk of teh playerbase. More fun for everyone, I say. :)
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Maybe Ghostwalker is just a hopeless romantic? ;D
... ???
Or maybe Zebulon has/knows something he's interested in...
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That said, there're probably a couple of people in Aztlan that are interested in bringing Horrors over, but the main power block that Mr Darke had is long gone and with him went the majority of teh knowledge base. The fanbase rejected, and rejected MIGHTILY, the entire concept way back when (When Threats introduced the concept, there was a mail-in response form that asked for ups and downs on the assorted plots, and who buddy, did they bury Horrors), and sicne then there's just really been no push for it. I kinda dug it, but I'm in the minority, and there're way bigger fish to fry in writing terms, so, I've never bothered to put together any sort of Horrors Return proposal.
Corporate Download was at the time quite clear about the end of this plot, but as far as I can tell, a lot of gamemasters did not notice. Since, Corporate Guide opened the door for a comeback, but suggested there should be no big events.
Corporate Download, Game Information, pages 127-128
In the '50s, Oscuro implemented an aggressive plan to use blood magic to bring on the next phase of the world, one in which Aztechnology would rule. He failed, and Domingo Chavez usurped the board, sending many Oscuro supporters to the Yucatan and pushing forward his own plans. [...]
With the rise of Domingo Chavez and the fall of Oscuro, blood mages have lost much of their support and privilege. They still remain, though they are less public and active: some are hiding while others have maintained their positions of power within Aztechnology by siding with Chavez. They are primarily used for religious functions, ritual sorcery, torture and assassination. Blood mages should be initiates (minimum Grade 8 ) and are rated as Professional and either Superior or Superhuman.
Corporate Guide, Aztechnology, page 75
My sponsor was a man named Oscuro, who led the faction that controlled the blood mages and the priesthood. He aspired to bring about the end of the Fifth Sun, so that the world would crumble and Aztlan alone would have the power and foresight to survive and protect humanity. His effort failed and claimed his life. Control of the priesthood fell to another on the board, the High Priest of Tezcatlipoca. I could tell he did not trust me, for I was Oscuro’s man. He was right, but for the wrong reasons. Under Oscuro, I saw that what I was doing was not holy—now I only hope to die a noble death.
I have fled, my life forfeit, hoping only to redeem myself before Quetzalcóatl by exposing the secret darkness that corrupts the heart of Aztlan. I remain bound to Tezcatlipoca, and his High Priest can see through my eyes, speak through my mouth. Thus I have gouged out my eyes and cut out my tongue. What this cult hopes to achieve, I do not know. I know only that they scoffed at Oscuro, at his “short-sighted goals,” and say they have learned from his mistakes and his haste. And I know they are looking for something.
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Personally, I don't think Shadowrun should have the Horrors return. It's too early for that. And if we got an early Scourge the entire meta-plot would have to revolve around that. I wouldn't seeing some immortal elves outed to the public. It'd be interesting to see the fallout from that.
Tech is nifty but Shadowrun has always been a blending of tech and magic. I hope that continues. And magical meta plots don't necessarily require any Earthdawn connection.
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Gotta agree with Nath. Long-time Gms' probably have already got something in mind for their individual, (a.k.a. home-ruled), games, but the 'official' view of Catalyst has been to separate the old FASA material, (circa mid-80's till end of 3rd Ed.), from the new, post-4th Ed. material. Hey, I'll admit I have a soft spot for the whole Lovecraft-styled invaders from a distant dimension concept but even the earlier books explained why meta-humanity shouldn't be worried about them for a millennium. Now the bugs and shedim, plus other threats, have done a decent job of presenting an immediate challenge to a typical shadowrunning team. And ya gotta admit, even the material from "Threats" and "Threats 2" can keep a Gm busy with plenty of ideas to keep his/her group busy! ;D
No need for any Horrors yet?!? :-\
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I've read the reason that Shadowrun and Earthdawn are separated is legal concerns because two different companies own the products. Now I'm not a lawyer but I don't see what kind of lawsuit FASA Games could bring against Catalyst ( or vice versa). No one's going to commit copyright violation by lifting passages from Earthdawn material or using someone else's trademarks.
So what is the legal issue, if I may ask?
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... what?!?
Catalyst can use anything from OldFASA Earthdawn; the two properties were owned by the same company, and had cross-fertilization up until they got sold to different concerns. That's the end of when SR can play with ED. Nothing produced by other companies since that split in regards to ED can be used by the makers / writers of SR. Conversely, anything up to that point is fair game for SR writers, if they somehow want to toy around with something-or-another.
And the legal issue is intellectual property rights. You claim that 'no one's going to commit copyright violation'; that's exactly what the legal issue is, or rather what it would be. The reason they won't is because doing so opens them up to Lawsuit City, and NewFASA doesn't want frickin' Topps hauling out the guns and putting big holes in their little company, and Topps doesn't want NewFASA to be able to tear off big slices of cash because someone got frickin' stupid with the wrong quote.
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As I said, I'm not a lawyer so I could very well have my head firmly implanted up my ass.
But... how can linking fictional worlds be illegal? If you're not plagiarizing another work or violating a trademark?
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Personally, I don't think Shadowrun should have the Horrors return. It's too early for that. And if we got an early Scourge the entire meta-plot would have to revolve around that. I wouldn't seeing some immortal elves outed to the public. It'd be interesting to see the fallout from that.
Tech is nifty but Shadowrun has always been a blending of tech and magic. I hope that continues. And magical meta plots don't necessarily require any Earthdawn connection.
Oh, I don't want them to return to the Sixth World, that would ruin the game. But I DO want them to return to the metaplot. They would act as the Reapers in "The Arrival" DLC - you don't fight theem, you fight their servants. You have to cut them off BEFORE they enter or it's game over.
Oh, and I've just gotten myself "Street Grimoire", there is a new extraplanar threat, Engkanto. Their schtick is making faustian spirit pacts. "Everything is gonna go your way, but in exchange you will have to do THIS for us. Oh, and if you try to end the arrangement or refuse an order this is going to change. Quickly." Personally I like to think that they act as a sort of a vanguard to SOMETHING much worse, paving the way from the deep metaplanes (or beyond).
... what?!?
Catalyst can use anything from OldFASA Earthdawn; the two properties were owned by the same company, and had cross-fertilization up until they got sold to different concerns. That's the end of when SR can play with ED. Nothing produced by other companies since that split in regards to ED can be used by the makers / writers of SR. Conversely, anything up to that point is fair game for SR writers, if they somehow want to toy around with something-or-another.
And the legal issue is intellectual property rights. You claim that 'no one's going to commit copyright violation'; that's exactly what the legal issue is, or rather what it would be. The reason they won't is because doing so opens them up to Lawsuit City, and NewFASA doesn't want frickin' Topps hauling out the guns and putting big holes in their little company, and Topps doesn't want NewFASA to be able to tear off big slices of cash because someone got frickin' stupid with the wrong quote.
Let me get this straight. As long as Catalyst uses only OldFASA material, it's technically legal, but NewFASA could raise stink and no matter the outcome, there would be losses. Am I getting this right?
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But... how can linking fictional worlds be illegal? If you're not plagiarizing another work or violating a trademark?
Because a fictional world is often a trademark, and is just as often - especially if you're making money out of it - plagarizing another work. You ever notice that, y'know, Star Trek doesn't link itself to Star Wars, and vice-versa? I mean, they're fictional worlds, right? It's a matter of ownership. Anything that could be a reference to something that was created after OldFASA runs the risk of 'plagarizing another work or violating a trademark'.
Let me get this straight. As long as Catalyst uses only OldFASA material, it's technically legal, but NewFASA could raise stink and no matter the outcome, there would be losses. Am I getting this right?
So long as you're thinking 'anything created after OldFASA sold the rights', yes - which is why such references (and having been browsing stuff, caers and the like ARE actually still being referenced) are being kept somewhat vague. References aren't to the Seven Daggers of BadLuckLand, it's to 'to a really fraggin' old iron knife with an aura that gave me the willies'. It isn't a obsidimen liferock, it's a chunk of stone that has a peculiar aura. These sorts of references, if by implication instead of specifics, and so long as they're essentially likely to be referring to something in OldFASA's ED material, are vague enough to get along - by which we mean 'would provide a strong defense in court, which would just waste NewFASA's money in pursuing'.
Seriously, it's enough for developers and freelancers to throw in a hint every now and then, that allows players of EarthDawn to smile, chuckle, and nod to themselves.
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Thanks for the explanation. I do hope we eventually get obsidimen in Shadowrun though. I don't know about windlings...
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Windlings are Pixies. And there have been references to Obsidimen (not by that name) a few times in 4th, and Golden Snout has a Ts'krang working for him (though everyone says he's a changeling).
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Pixies were introduced in Paranormal Animals of Europe, and so they'd be grandfathered in anyway. T'Skrang ... not so much. Officially.
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But... how can linking fictional worlds be illegal? If you're not plagiarizing another work or violating a trademark?
tl;dr version: The first line of Wakshaani's 9/8 post. Otherwise, read on.
While Old!FASA was still a thing, there was no problem because they owned all the IP involved. The copyrights and trademarks that Old!FASA owned were split up when the company was, presumably along game line... lines. All the Shadowrun IP went to WizKids/FanPro/whoever it was, while the Earthdawn IP bounced around like a superball in a blender. Either holder who uses the other guy's IP without permission is committing an infringement, and is opened up to liability. Which is why we see "legally distinct" references like TWO mentioned; close enough that those in the know get it, but vague enough to prevent legal problems. Of course, if enough of those references get together, it can still cause problems, which is why the folks in charge are careful about it.
Psycho835 got it right, though; anything incorporated into the Shadowrun "canon" prior to the Fall of FASA is Shadowrun IP, not Earthdawn IP, even if there is an incredibly similar bit of IP in the Earthdawn sphere. Each line can take it's copy and run with it, without worry of infringement. However, IP that was created after the split (or not incorporated before the split) runs the risk of infringement if it's used now. An example is dragons: They are a significant piece of each game, and each game can use them in whatever manner it sees fit. The dragon known as Ghostwalker/Icewing can be used by either line, since he was included in both prior to the split. Because they have no ED analog, Lowfyr and Hestaby are off limits in Earthdawn, although ED writers can certainly reference a "male dragon with golden scales" or "an orange female dragon." Referencing a "large, male Great Common Dragon with golden scales who is the brother of Alamais," though not flat-out saying "Lowfyr," is towing the line.
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Lofwyr was referred to in ED as being Alamaise's brother to the north. I can't recall if his coloration was ever mentioned.
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Lofwyr was referred to in ED as being Alamaise's brother to the north. I can't recall if his coloration was ever mentioned.
My bad. I thought he was only directly referenced in SR.
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He was never mentioned by name, I think by color. But yeah, he "existed" in ED. I don't know if he was ever going to be more significant than as a silent check on Alamaise.
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Anyone interested in more detail about "Great Dances" would be well advised to find and read "Never Deal with a Dragon", "Choose Your Enemies Carefully", and "Find Your Own Truth", particularly the last of this trilogy. In it you see Daniel "Howling Coyote" Coleman teach the dance to a runner Dog Shaman known as Twist. Then go on to watch them perform a Great Dance.