Shadowrun
Catalyst Game Labs => Catalyst's Shadowrun Products => Topic started by: Wazlethwack on <09-05-14/2238:13>
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I just got my copy of Clutch of Dragons. It's my first new Shadowrun book since the end of third edition. So far, I like the book very much.
But I noticed something odd... I'm noticing a (relatively) high number of grammatical mistakes. Relatively in comparison with 1st, 2nd, and 3rd edition books.
The grammar errors don't hurt the writing or make the intent unclear. But it is strange because I almost never noticed those in previous books. But I've also noticed no spelling errors. Just grammar.
So that leads me to ask.... what kind of support services do Shadowrun writers get? Are they provided proof readers? Editors? Or are the writers expected to do it all on their own?
I look forward to posting a full review of the book when I've finished reading it.
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Clutch of Dragons was published 2 years ago - I think publishing a review of it at this point would be superfluous.
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Good point.
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Yes, there are proofreaders and playtesters and editors. I can't recall much of what is in the book that isn't mine, but I also remember there being some material around that time that was supposed to be sloppy given the in-game sources of the information. I'm almost certain that was the case with Conspiracy Theories, and I'm pretty sure it applies to Clutch. Not what I wrote, but other sections.
It was the last book I had the time and interest to write for, so I'd be interested in a review. There will always be new readers of the books (except the original Germany sourcebook. When FASA closed down, they literally couldn't give away their extra copies).
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Thankfully I have the Germany source book. It's in rather poor condition but I've got it.
The grammatical errors I'm thinking about aren't in comments/shadow talk. They're in the main text. I don't want this to sound like a criticism because it's not. The errors reminded me of what I'd do if I was writing something off the cuff, had an inline spell checker running, but didn't proof read it.
It intrigues me because it makes me wonder about the conditions the writers have to deal with. From what I can gather from forums most of the writing is done by freelancers. I don't know if this was always the case or not. I assume the use of freelancers is the same reason every publication uses them-lower costs. Pesky things like health insurance and benefits don't come into play. (And no, I'm not trying to get any of the writers to bite the hand that feeds them on the forums).
I also noticed that the overall *printing* quality of the books (especially the artwork) is lower than in first and second edition.
My assumption is that the RPG publishers have been trying to cut costs for at least a decade. Presumably because of competition from video games and the Internet. I believe that was why FASA bowed out of the business in the first place.
I'm still chewing through the book. So far, the quality of the writing itself is superb. It'll be interesting to compare this tome to Dragons of the Sixth World, which I also have read.
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Sadly, the Rpg market has never been a huge market to start with, and costs have done nothing but gone up :(
As a long time player (I have been playing from 1e too) I too have moticed a change in quality of the books as well.... for the most part the quality of the paper stock has gone up (such with the new 5e glossed pages) Artwork (IMO) has always been hit or miss.
Personally, I think the freelancers we have, have done a great job with what they have to work with, and I look forward to the new books scheduled to come out.
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Just to be clear: I'm not denigrating the writers at all. Quite the opposite. I am concerned that writers may not be getting adequate resources. I expect it might also be tricky because the Shadowrun publisher has changed several times.
An analogy might be newspapers. Traditionally newspaper reporters had good resources. You had editors and proof readers and researchers and the like. As the newspaper business has gotten hammered those resources have been cut (as have the reporters). As someone who thinks good newspapers are very important this concerns me.
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Sorry, I was not saying you were attacking. I was politely trying to say that a lot of the resources that you would expect there to be available to the writers are probably not actually there due to budget restraints.... which is sadly a sign of the times in the RPG market.
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Writing and editing are related, but different skillsets. FASA used to have a staff editor who did *no* writing, but she had teh Red Pen of Doom and would reach in there to make corrections.
For the record, as bad as you might feel about writing errors in books, the people whose names are attached to said errors *really* get belly-twisted over it. We catch as many as possible, but every now and then something will slip through (Especially for word mistakes, like peak instead of peek, or throw instead of through, since spellcheckers pass those by and looking over your own work, your brain will trick you.)
There are some changes coming down from above to try and fix this. Personally, I'd love to get Jennifer back on staff again, but I don't know anything about Catalyst's finances in terms of feasability on the issue.
But, the problems have been noted and ways to correct it are being attempted, but we're not where we need to be yet. Hopefully soon.
(For the record, when we finally get abook out that's mistake-free, I will probably ask for everyone to give me a cookie at GenCon. Just 'cause.)
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Writing and editing are related, but different skillsets. FASA used to have a staff editor who did *no* writing, but she had teh Red Pen of Doom and would reach in there to make corrections.
For the record, as bad as you might feel about writing errors in books, the people whose names are attached to said errors *really* get belly-twisted over it. We catch as many as possible, but every now and then something will slip through (Especially for word mistakes, like peak instead of peek, or throw instead of through, since spellcheckers pass those by and looking over your own work, your brain will trick you.)
There are some changes coming down from above to try and fix this. Personally, I'd love to get Jennifer back on staff again, but I don't know anything about Catalyst's finances in terms of feasability on the issue.
But, the problems have been noted and ways to correct it are being attempted, but we're not where we need to be yet. Hopefully soon.
(For the record, when we finally get abook out that's mistake-free, I will probably ask for everyone to give me a cookie at GenCon. Just 'cause.)
Screw the cookie, I'll buy you a beer!
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No apologies needed. I simply didn't want to give the wrong impression. And I'd hate to see the writers raked over the coals for errors.
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It was the last book I had the time and interest to write for, so I'd be interested in a review. There will always be new readers of the books (except the original Germany sourcebook. When FASA closed down, they literally couldn't give away their extra copies).
Well, this one I can agree with:
Jackpointers are talking about Lofwyr being Loremaster as if it's a given fact and that the trial detailed in Survival of the Fittest actually did have its box scores published on the screamsheets. Everything about dragons has been demystified and it just completely does not
. "Well, we redid Fields of Fire, Shadowbeat, Threats, Cyberpirates, Paranormal Animals, State of the Art, and Seattle Sourcebook. What's left?" "Dragons of the Sixth World and Mr. Johnson's Black Book" "Brilliant! Final manuscript is due next Wednesday and we'll publish the PDF the following Tuesday."
Yes, that was hyperbolic, but it's my impression of CGL's attitude toward Shadowrun. Release too many products in too short a time period without spending nearly enough on writing, editing, art, layout, etc. So everything comes out looking like a rough draft with errors all over the place with the sort of amateurish visual look you'd except from companies back in the OGL days of the early 2000s. BattleTech gets all the money and attention and Shadowrun's treated like a redheaded stepchild. I don't blame the writers and I only barely blame the editors. I blame CGL for putting too much on the schedule without giving any of it the proper attention. It means a lowered quality across the board. I'd much rather get a few really good books every year than 20-30 or more crappy PDF-only releases.
Thus my review. If you like what Catalyst has been doing with Shadowrun, you'll like Clutch of Dragons. If you're looking for something to change your mind (like I am every time I pick up one of the 4A books), you're not going to find it here. And since I seem to be in the minority, I guess they're doing something people like since I've only run into a couple of Shadowrun grognards over the net with everyone else playing 4A.
Plus this:
I was disappointed by the intro story. Too forced, too Splinter Cell for my tastes, but that's a matter of personal preference, as is most of the following, apart from a few hard facts I'll present later.
The whole war subplot seems kind of forced to me. Kill campaigns against talisleggers and their associates are understandable, if a bit silly. After all, we hunt people who deal in human remains as well. You don't want the guy who's been drinking wine from your aunt's skull to live. However, this whole scorched earth business á la "I kill you and everyone who ever knew you"? Kind of over the top.
I also did not really get all the corporate connections with Seraphim and whatnot popping up here and there. To me, it seems like someone wanted to connect a whole lot of threads that don't really go well together, and the ensuing story lacks direction and a hard theme. The whole 'trickle down effects' chapter is a bit out of place in my eyes and doesn't contribute much.
I did like the short writeups as to what the Greats are up to these days, as well as the spotlight on what the drakes are doing (and I don't even like drakes ). The chapters about specific smaller dragons and the Sea Dragon were, in general, also well written and I enjoyed reading them, but .. Urubia worth 50 billion Nuyen + unspecified amounts? Bit much ... IMO.
The fiction was also fun to read. Meeting the old fellows again under these circumstances made me smile
Interior artwork feels very good, all in all
Now to the things I did not like:
- The cover. It's awful, at least as awful as that ork on the boardroom backstabs cover. Please don't use Zeleznik for cover artwork again until he gets back to his old quality
- The whole 'tools of the opposition' chapter. WTF? A drone that shoots smaller drones at dragons? What's the point?! I mean ... I get submunitions, but this concept screams "We need to get something totally abstruse into this book!" The chapter seems forced, overall, and not well thought out. "Why yes, there must be weapons against dragons. Let's have the shadowtalkers speculate some, while throwing buzzwords around" is my general impression of the ratio behind it. Consequently, the game information chapter is equally worthless, giving stats for that weird drone and spirit piloted t-birds without providing ... actual stats, what a spirit piloted t-bird can do. WTF? I once had a brainstorming with a friend. We forced a newspaper from 1887, a shitload of polish cigarettes, trolls on vespa scooters in the Siberian tundra, a porn collection, color-coded surprise grenades, awakened Yaks with cyberlegs and a nuclear submarine in one adventure, for no other reason than 'because we can'. This chapter is like that. I think, we were really drunk. Was this the excuse for writing this?
Also ... This drone is apparently magic resistant and has 2 more dice for spell resistance tests! I'm a bit foggy. Are those actually rolled by a drone?
Oh yeah. True drake BP costs. Equally useless, IMO, but for scalies surely a feast
- The spelling mistakes. Oh the sheer mass of typos in this book is so disappointing. My favorites: With one line in between, "Kaltenstein" and "Kaltenstien". I know, this is difficult for non native German speakers (or writers in this case) but at least choose one! Next: "Naheka did not formerly sever his relationship [...]" (after re-reading that sentence: ambiguous, but I still think that 'formally' is meant), 'much' instead of 'must', 'hordes' instead of 'hoards'. Basic stuff, really. It's right there in the context! It irks me that the quality control in CGL products has gotten THIS bad. It's comes across as a lectorate consisting of Word spell check, without even reading it. Work on it, please, guys. Minor nitpick: Harlequin's name is Caimbeul, not Caimbuel. It's gaelic for 'crooked mouth', but at least the spelling is consistently wrong in the final story
- The goddamn teleport. It's so "Dragons are special snowflake" that it hurts. At best it's a case of a dragon showing off what he really shouldn't be showing off (no, Peri's special levitate spell does not suffice as an explanation for this shit), at worst it's an author who got his ideas about SR from the xbox game. This is one of the three tenets of SR, and ED planeswalking shouldn't be used to rationalize such crap. No reviving from death. No time travel. No teleportation. It's not that difficult.
In general, I didn't regret buying the book. But I do feel cheated because of the consistent quality control issues, that abound in recent SR products. There are a few things you can do to make the books outstanding again:
1.) A lectorate that's worth the name. Just take a good hard look at page 17 of used car lot. Brumley? Brumbly? Or is it Brumby, as in the original book?
2.) GET A TABLE OF CONTENTS! I cannot stress that enough. It's not difficult. You have it right there in the PDF. Saving that one page makes the book a lot harder to use. And in case of the PDF? Make the links clickable. I know you can do it. A lot of the pdfs have it. Bring it back, please.
3.) An index. I know, I can do a full text search in the pdfs, but this luxury doesn't extend to the print version.
Final judgement: It's an average book. The good outweighs the bad and I tend not to gripe with stuff I won't use (mostly the things I've mentioned in the first paragraph)
4 / 10, could have been a 5 without all those typos.
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Ouch.
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I think a review that criticizes typos, but is equally riddled with typos is funny.
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I think a review that criticizes typos, but is equally riddled with typos is funny.
In fairness, there's a different expectation between a professionally published product and someone's internet post about said product.
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- The goddamn teleport. It's so "Dragons are special snowflake" that it hurts. At best it's a case of a dragon showing off what he really shouldn't be showing off (no, Peri's special levitate spell does not suffice as an explanation for this shit), at worst it's an author who got his ideas about SR from the xbox game. This is one of the three tenets of SR, and ED planeswalking shouldn't be used to rationalize such crap. No reviving from death. No time travel. No teleportation. It's not that difficult.
Or maybe I know more than the reviewer. Whatever.
I didn't write the Game Info stuff about it because it's not supposed to be understood what/how/why Peri did what he did, but it was legal when I pitched it. That's kinda my deal.
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I didn't get to the game info section on the teleport yet. I figured since the Shadowtalk in the book was going back and forth on how the teleport/levitate/whatever the method wasn't meant to be understood. At least not right now. Perhaps in later books it was explained.
But any spell like acts like a teleport would be very powerful. And it could be replicated by methumanity it could change the face of the world. Instant transportation would be a major game changer.
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Instant transportation would be a major game changer.
At least one megacorp would collapse almost overnight. But really, who feels threatened by Wuxing? Answer: everyone who thinks they're not a threat. :P
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And it could be replicated by methumanity it could change the face of the world.
You're forgetting a very big "if" in that sentence.
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Man, I don't recall teleportation from the book at all...need to go back and re-read it.
@Crimsondude
It was the last book I had the time and interest to write for...
Have you moved entirely on from SR, or are you doing any other freelance work? Pure curiosity from my side, but if I'm being nosy, apologies and please ignore.
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Crimson, hope you are still working on SR products..... always enjoyed your work.
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I'm just too busy, but I'm still involved within the writers pool. That is, I'm giving away free material and ideas. ;)
Man, I don't recall teleportation from the book at all...need to go back and re-read it.
Peri whisks the Aztlan/Aztechnology delegation out of Denver to Las Cruces before Ghostwalker was about to assassinate them all. It's not something Peri should be able to do. It's not something anyone should know how to do, except maybe some Great Dragons or immortals. It's not teleportation. The closest explanation in the shadowtalk is that it was some sort of supercharged Levitate spell. Peri's stats mention he knows a custom Levitate spell, which I wouldn't even have mentioned. The whole point is that no one knows how, why, or what he did.
But I love how we cannot put one relatively minor thing in the books that defies explanation, or simply shouldn't get one, without someone calling into question the entire setting and the competence of me and the other writers because ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
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But I love how we cannot put one relatively minor thing in the books that defies explanation, or simply shouldn't get one, without someone calling into question the entire setting and the competence of me and the other writers because ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
Welcome to the shit that the BattleTech writers got during the Jihad story arc. The books were told with more of an "On the ground" than the usual "Not quite an all seeing eye, but close" perspective. As the book series progressed, there were wrap-up sections in each book for the prior book that solidified the story. Some vocal fans got pissed about the whole approach. Me? I loved the idea.
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Peri whisks the Aztlan/Aztechnology delegation out of Denver to Las Cruces before Ghostwalker was about to assassinate them all. It's not something Peri should be able to do. It's not something anyone should know how to do, except maybe some Great Dragons or immortals. It's not teleportation. The closest explanation in the shadowtalk is that it was some sort of supercharged Levitate spell. Peri's stats mention he knows a custom Levitate spell, which I wouldn't even have mentioned. The whole point is that no one knows how, why, or what he did.
But I love how we cannot put one relatively minor thing in the books that defies explanation, or simply shouldn't get one, without someone calling into question the entire setting and the competence of me and the other writers because ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
If it shouldn't get an explanation, then the book shouldn't feature half a page discussing what that explanation could be. The topic of those discussions could have been an excuse to introduce another plot or have an exchange between Jackpointers that emphasizes their character traits or whatever, but it is not. So half a page of wasted paper would call into question the competence of writers. But most reader actually trust the author enough to infer the existence of an explanation from the very fact that the author wrote about the search for one.
Despite the exhortations to "defy the audience's expectation," there are still things that are proven not to work. If you introduce a mystery, then you either explain it (even if it only at the end), or you handwave it. But that's a one-way door. If you started explaining it with theory, you'll frustrate your audience if you ultimately handwave it. And if you openly handwaved it at first before suddenly making the explanation important, you'll just look stupid. Of course, that's the kind of rules that you can ignore if you're a skilled writer (but chances are, if you're skilled enough to do that, you already know about it).
Shadowrun is a tricky setting to have mystery because it has science, technology along with magic and actual written rules for magic (or at least some of the magic). So there can be a really fine line between explaining and handwaving. To a number of people, "dragon magic you cannot understand, you punny mortal who follow the rulebook" falls on the handwaving side. But that line moves based on one's knowledge. Your most typical case is a sci-fi author thinking he is handwaving something using tech jargon, while a part of the audience with appropriate technical background will instead take it as an explanation that is WRONG. But it can also goes the other way, with an author or GM going all fussy about, say, "He's an adult dragon, not a great one, he should not know how to do that!" while most of his audience are totally oblivious to the difference between adult and great dragons beside size.
In the end, it is mostly up to the fact that you're part of a team, even more so as credits don't list who authored which part, who has a record of timeline, geographical and consistency blunders that got noticed. There are people who consider their numbers to be within acceptable limits, and others who don't. And among those, you now have people ready to jump on what they think is the latest blunder. And once they start thinking you are stupid, they systematically apply "Hanlon's Razor" without giving it a thought: never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
For some reason, this reminds me of someone who was mocking the London Sourcebook because SAS action as a secret police force did not match what he knew about this unit, seemingly oblivious to the fact that British writers who lived through the 1980s may have known better.
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Just as an aside: The writers who come up with the fiction don't always write the game information that goes with that fiction. There was no game information written by me for "Sleeping With the Enemy" in Storm Front, for instance (except for the stat block cut-and-pasted from Street Legends, but again, that wasn't turned in with the piece and certainly wasn't expected by the author), but there was game info there nonetheless.
I think this might be the case for this section that's under discussion. I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.
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Nath: That's a lot of words for "haters gonna hate."
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I'm just too busy, but I'm still involved within the writers pool. That is, I'm giving away free material and ideas. ;)
Happy to hear that you're still swimming in the pool ;) Regarding the "issue", I guess each to his or her own. I liked it...no issues with "not knowing".
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My assumption was that the teleport was supposed to remain a mystery. Possibly a future plot hook. If so, it makes sense to keep it unexplained.
On the other hand, if in the future the idea of an instant teleport, even by a dragon, is entirely forgotten that would be a shame. A Star Trek style transporter beam would change the entire face of society. It would also give the user(s) an enormous tactical advantage in any conflict. Even if only one dragon can do it, militaries the world around would pay gargantuan amounts of money to rent the services of a teleport.
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Before people go bitching and moaning about a 'teleport', answer me this: What do you think would happen if a dragon overcast a Levitate spell and spent edge on it?
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After reading the original Threats book, I had high-ranking members of the Black Lodge teleport in my 2nd edition game. Don't turn me in to the game police :-[
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After reading the original Threats book, I had high-ranking members of the Black Lodge teleport in my 2nd edition game. Don't turn me in to the game police :-[
Resurrection via sorcery was also possible in 2E, IIRC.
It's amazing what is actually permitted in SR via magic (hint: everything). The only real limits are on sorcery.
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It's not something anyone should know how to do, except maybe some Great Dragons or immortals. It's not teleportation. The closest explanation in the shadowtalk is that it was some sort of supercharged Levitate spell. Peri's stats mention he knows a custom Levitate spell, which I wouldn't even have mentioned. The whole point is that no one knows how, why, or what he did.
Some say Demonoe's Pizza™ uses something similar to keep with their '30 minutes anywhere in Seattle, even the Barrens' promise, but I still think they are just using bound spirits for deliveries.
Either way, it's still hot with the cheese all gooey when it gets there and that is the best magic of all.
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Resurrection was possible? Good heavens, how did I miss that when reading...
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Also, instead of teleporting, he could have done the same trick Harlequin does, where he travels bodily through the Astral plane. There were a lot of things that were very possible in previous ages of magic, that aren't possible given what metahuman society of the Sixth World knows about magic. Dragons, Immortal Elves, and other such groups are not necessarily bound by the same rules as the rest of us.
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Resurrection was possible? Good heavens, how did I miss that when reading...
There were guidelines prohibiting sorcery from accomplishing certain things in the original magic supplements until hard rules were established with Magic in the Shadows, the SR3 magic supplement. Resurrection was never explicitly prohibited until Street Magic (SR4 magic supplement). What happened was that someone who'd been bitching about the Shadowrun FPS, and specifically its Resurrect spell, *ahem* noticed that it was never expressly prohibited. This was in part because the metahuman soul was never classified as a "spirit," and so it didn't technically count that sorcery couldn't summon or banish spirits. MitS, 47.
However, there is no prohibition on using Conjuring to resurrect a metahuman. Some may argue that since Street Magic says "once a person has passed away, they are gone forever." 160. That is a matter of considerable doubt since exceptions have existed for the history of the game, and there is even a caveat immediately following that clause, "(though some view conjuring spirits as raising the spirits of the dead)." Id. Besides that, there are exceptions ranging from memories and personality traits assimilated by shedim or flesh forms to echoes of memory/personality being tied to a location on Earth, i.e. ghosts, to the existence of summonable spirits in astral space/metaplanes who are or are nearly indistinguishable from the dead (ancestor spirits), and at the upper end fragments of person's astral form/spirit/soul becoming a new spirit altogether (Dunkelzahn and Burnout).
In other words, magic can do damn near anything. Sorcery has limits, but there's a lot of magic beyond that field. That rule against altering the fabric of the time/space continuum, for example. Sorcery can't do that, but since SR3, the official explanation of how the Movement critter power works has been that it is a form of time dilation. That may not alter the space/time fabric, but it does stretch the shit out of it.
Also, instead of teleporting, he could have done the same trick Harlequin does, where he travels bodily through the Astral plane. There were a lot of things that were very possible in previous ages of magic, that aren't possible given what metahuman society of the Sixth World knows about magic. Dragons, Immortal Elves, and other such groups are not necessarily bound by the same rules as the rest of us.
Maybe.
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Nath: That's a lot of words for "haters gonna hate."
It's too easy (and not really fair) to shut dwn all critical reviews with "haters gonna hate", imo. The late SR4 books have their issues and are far from the high standard that SR sourcebooks had before. Imo, the lack of a clear vision of SR's metaplot combined with silly ideas, terrible editing, and a confusing release order of the late SR4 books make it hard to notice the few good ideas that are buried in the books. Plus it's very difficult for a writer to not keep reviews personal.
Anyway... CoD has a few nice ideas, but is too riddled with half-explained ideas, strange metaplot twists, and too many parts of confusing writing. I'ver never used the book in my campaign, unlike others that were released in the late SR4 era (i.e. Jet Set).
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Hatred is a negative emotion with nasty karmic retaliations. :)
But seriously, here's my two copper. Whining about how IEs and the Great Dragons are 'Special Snowflakes' of the SR Game and shouldn't be allowed greater power then what 99% of the rest of magic-users would know is ridiculous! Why, you might ask? Perhaps because they're A) Game NPCs and B) Power-players from a prior magic world (the 4th). So you don't like it? Then don't use them! Oy!!!! Still PO'd from their very existence? Then don't play the game as is. Uh, h-e-l-l-o....You are still the game-master and still in charge, (that's why the term is G.O.D.---Game-master On Duty).
Personally, I still use the magic field growth theory from the Fasa days and have no problem with the idea that ancient magic beings, both potentially allies and enemies, would have magic knowledge of the 4th World, (practical application is pretty much still your call; after all your running the game. 8)
But like I said, that's my two copper. ::)
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The Dragons and Immortal Elves aren't special snowflakes. To put it in terms of another genre, PCs are like Daredevil or Spiderman. Maybe the X-men. The Immortal Elves and Dragons? They're Galactus, Silver Surfer, or the Beyonder. In D&D terms, you're a level 5 Rogue, and they're a level 30 Wizard. You aren't in their league, pure and simple. Oh sure, they might have a job for you, now and then, and sometimes you might get a win against them if you're lucky and good, but don't ever think you're going to take them down, any more than you can take down all of one of the Big 10. They are high level NPCs, pure and simple. They don't operate under the same rules PCs do, but that's fine. That's why they're NPCs.
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The Dragons and Immortal Elves aren't special snowflakes. To put it in terms of another genre, PCs are like Daredevil or Spiderman. Maybe the X-men. The Immortal Elves and Dragons? They're Galactus, Silver Surfer, or the Beyonder. In D&D terms, you're a level 5 Rogue, and they're a level 30 Wizard. You aren't in their league, pure and simple. Oh sure, they might have a job for you, now and then, and sometimes you might get a win against them if you're lucky and good, but don't ever think you're going to take them down, any more than you can take down all of one of the Big 10. They are high level NPCs, pure and simple. They don't operate under the same rules PCs do, but that's fine. That's why they're NPCs.
Well said.
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The Dragons and Immortal Elves aren't special snowflakes. To put it in terms of another genre, PCs are like Daredevil or Spiderman. Maybe the X-men. The Immortal Elves and Dragons? They're Galactus, Silver Surfer, or the Beyonder. In D&D terms, you're a level 5 Rogue, and they're a level 30 Wizard. You aren't in their league, pure and simple. Oh sure, they might have a job for you, now and then, and sometimes you might get a win against them if you're lucky and good, but don't ever think you're going to take them down, any more than you can take down all of one of the Big 10. They are high level NPCs, pure and simple. They don't operate under the same rules PCs do, but that's fine. That's why they're NPCs.
Well said.
Agreed.
Though I think the difference is that of the ~50 immortals (Great Dragons, elves, pre-Awakening free spirits, "others"), you can actually thwart them if you try. But Earth-beings messing with them regularly is the purview of the Fantastic Four, which is totally fine and generally a totally different campaign tone than Daredevil or even Iron First. On the other hand, even the Mighty Avengers have a powerhouse whose nemesis was introduced kicking the Sentry's and rest of the original MA members' asses, and fought a reality-ending foe in their first arc, but were regarded upon introduction as being "street level."
To put it another way, even Frank Castle fought Skrulls during Secret Invasion.
What has kept me coming back to them in spite of my original dislike is that I realized I could use them to show that, quite frankly, the Sixth World has no regard for how old, skilled, or "powerful" you are. There are too many Players moving too quickly and with their own tools that it will chew you up and leave you broken if you aren't careful.
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Indeed. Just remember to know your limits and manage expectations. You might be able to thwart one of Lofwyr's plans this time, but don't expect you've taken down Lofwyr himself. You may have handed the Big A a loss, maybe even destroyed a building or crippled one of their local branches or subsidiaries for a while, but don't think you've brought down Aztechnology as a whole. As a target for a run, the IEs and Great Dragons are perfectly valid targets. Just make sure you're careful to clean up the evidence, and don't go to the point where they take a personal interest in your discontinued well being. For example, pulling a job in Denver to try and thwart Ghostwalker's efforts to kick the Azzies back out? As long as you clean up after yourself, you're probably in the clear. Steal something from Ghostwalker's office, or from his lair in Cheyenne Mountain? You're so very fucked. Oh, maybe not today, and maybe not tomorrow, but someday, and for the rest of your (presumably short) life.