Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: firebug on <09-10-14/0340:16>

Title: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: firebug on <09-10-14/0340:16>

Been a while since I posted I feel.

I was following a chain of links on TV Tropes and came across "Post-Cyberpunk" and realized that it really seems to be what Shadowrun has evolved into. Which I think is a great thing-- I recall an interesting thread a while ago based around someone complaining that if Shadowrun's world really was a total crapsack dystopia where nothing good happens, then caring about the setting and the characters is pointless. "Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy" is how TV Tropes describes it.

But more so, I like that the sub-genre feels more "realistic". Which is to say, saying everything is bad everywhere all the time just doesn't make sense. Especially in a world literally containing magic and incredible technological advancements. Post-cyberpunk takes the blame that cyberpunk usually puts on technology itself and puts it more into the direct actions of the people, and thus allows the players a stronger feeling of agency-- Good does exist and the players have the ability to change at least their own situations to be more to their liking.

This aspect is in stark contrast to what's normally associated with dystopian settings. World of Darkness is a shitty place to live because the setting is a byproduct of a theme where Shadowrun feels like it's a setting that grew on its own and then gained its genre. Even though I know that's not really the case-- The earlier editions were very stereotypical cyberpunk. And so, so powerfully eighties.

I admit I'm partly just parroting the page I read, but my point is that I was excited to find out that there's a name for what exactly I feel Shadowrun's become.

So to people who've played for a while and witnessed it evolve, how do you feel about the theme the game's taken? Are you bothered by it losing some of its hardcore and darker tones? Or do you feel like me where the more neutral tone improves the setting?

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: Sternenwind on <09-10-14/0704:00>

I prefer MrBtongue definition and explanation of cyberpunk.
And with that my Shadowrun world is still cyberpunk, not 1980 Cyberpunk but 2010-2020 Cyberpunk.
I am sure it has it flaws but it help me pretty good to define my world, play and game.

TUN:Cyberpunk is back - MrBtongue (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXVO1HCNQ8M)

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: Wakshaani on <09-10-14/0829:54>

Well, one of the things that you need is contrast. SHADOWrun. When it's all-dark, all the time, you lose that.

When you instead showcase this area with crippling poverty, the SINless walking around without medical care and being freely abused by enforcement agents, then pan over (across a wall, for instance!) and show a bright shiny middle-class housing area, with a car in the driveway, kids laughing and chasing a robotic dog around the yard, while the parents are served refreshments by a housekeeper 'bot, well, NOW you have a story.

Some illustrations.

(http://home.comcast.net/~tryptic/blog/ref08.jpg)

(http://www.southampton.ac.uk/ghp3/images/rio-contrast.jpg)

(http://tvcdn.kid1.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/mexicos-wealth-poverty-contrast-01.jpg?062374)

This is where you get your street rats and people who fell through the cracks growling about gilded cages and corporate chains, while crporate nobles shudder at the idea of life out There with Those People, who have no issue with giving the corporation (The Corp is mother, the Corp is father; I know where my loyalties lie.) their labor and thier lives in exchange for the protection and comfort that life brings them.

You need poor kids being sold to fleshpeddlers and turned into security thugs, domestic servants, highly-trained assassins, or disposable playthings. You need rich people donating money to the poor or working for a cure for disease, improving cybernetics, or otherwise making advances while poor people prey on the weak, rob and murder, or engage in simple racism and hate.

Good rich, bad rich, good poor, bad poor, and all the people in between just trying to get by.

Shadows.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: MadBear on <09-10-14/0927:00>

I don't think Cyberpunk means nothing good ever happens. Cyberpunk is only one of many dysptopic genres. A dystopia, if you can forgive a little cut and paste here, is a community or society that is in some important way undesirable or frightening. It is the opposite of a utopia. Such societies appear in many artistic works, particularly in stories set in a future. Dystopias are often characterized by dehumanization, totalitarian governments, environmental disaster, or other characteristics associated with a cataclysmic decline in society. Dystopian societies appear in many sub-genres of fiction and are often used to draw attention to real-world issues regarding society, environment, politics, economics, religion, psychology, ethics, science, and/or technology, which if unaddressed could potentially lead to such a dystopia-like condition. So a dystopia is really a story in which one element is strongly unpleasant. You are right, if nothing good ever happened, there would be no emotional connection to the setting. So even the saddest, most depressing dystopic setting will have a glimmer of hope. Cyberpunk specifically is a future setting with advanced technology often melding man and machine, not a setting where nothing good ever happens.
Shadowrun is definately dystopic, and is also both Cyberpunk and Fantasy.
I've been playing since 1st edition, and I personally feel SR is still strongly Cyberpunk. It still has its dystopic themes, is still dark and gritty. The technology has advanced, but that doesn't mean it's no longer Cyberpunk.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: Wakshaani on <09-10-14/1440:22>

That glimmer of hope thing is important, by the by. While we want things gritty and have moral shades all over, there are some bright spots here and there that get mentioned. I did stuff in a book a while ago that will be out sometime (And is about something, because let's keep it vague people!) that will showcase this. It's nothing big, but hopefully people will read it and go, "Aw man. That's cool. I dig that." Just one of those lil' candles in a big ol' field of dark,

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: AndyNakamura on <09-10-14/1607:25>

I started the discussion on the same topic quite a while back. IIRC, it ended up with, "depending on how you choose to run it".

Post-cyberpunk was a reaction to the grim and gritty dystopia of the classic cyberpunk, the "high-tech, low-life, no hope" becoming "high-tech, low-life, and we love it". Classic comparison: Gibson's "Neuromancer" vs. Stevenson's "Snow Crash". Early SR is closer to the former, later SR to the latter.

IMO, the difference between classic and post-cyberpunk is the degree in which the protagonists' actions matter. If they are doomed to fail no matter how they try, if the system remains uncrashed despite the efforts, if even if they do achieve their goals, the price is too great - this is classic. If the protagonists can actually save / change the world, or at least retire in comfort - this is post.

SR is interesting in that regard. On one hand, you have characters who can succeed on a world-changing scale - cf. Dunkelzahn and Captain Chaos. On the other, the society seems to absorb anything they do and return to the status quo, except with shinier chrome. Particular example is the transition from SR4 to SR5 - from a society with a potential and promise of a transhumanist utopia back to the more dystopian one. Even obvious in the tone and color palette of the book.

Or maybe that was just Slamm-O! (assuming he is the narrator) getting more cynical with age.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: SnackerBob on <09-10-14/1711:27>

Honestly, reading 4th Edition made me more paranoid of the future than the earlier editions did. You are living in a world where the food you eat is broadcasting signals. You literally cannot escape Big Brother; your solace is that he is busy fighting your Other Big Brothers.

I would much prefer to live in Blade Runner's obvious Crapsack than the subtle Craddock of Minority Report. And Minority Report is STILL better than Shadowrun's Post-Cyberpunk universe.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: Tecumseh on <09-10-14/1753:18>

I would agree with the original premise that Shadowrun has evolved from Cyberpunk to Post-Cyberpunk over the course of its editions. Personally I preferred the earlier vibe, but I'm still playing.

To me, the evolution of the setting mirrors some of what I imagine the game designers have gone through through over the course of the years. Originally, it was "we've got this crazy world, what do we do with it", which was true for both the designers and the people of 2050. In-game, magic, cyber, goblinization, the disintegration of nations, and all the other details of the Awakening had all emerged during the previous 40 years and it was easy to envision the confusion and unsettled feelings of a world that had flipped upside-down within a generation or two. Now, with another 25 years of game design and world evolution, the setting has its feet under it. It's less Wild West than it was at the beginning, both because the players and designers have adopted (and adapted) the setting but also because the game world itself has had that much more time to come to grips with the realities of the Sixth World.

It's interesting to me that AndyNakamura mentioned the color palette of the book. This is something I've wondered about a lot over the last five years: how much of the cyberpunk feel of the early editions came from the fact that they were greyscale books printed on uncoated paper? The black-and-white artwork really lent itself to a grim cyberpunk setting, as did the monochrome nature of the books themselves. For the 4th and 5th Editions we've had sourcebooks printed in full color on glossy paper stock. I think the color goes along way to change the tone of the books. SR4A has the blue background on every page while SR5 has the tan-and-red background, and the pages are shiny. Now, the artwork and books are so bright and colorful and reflective that sometimes it feels harder to find the shadows. That puts me in a post-cyberpunk frame of mind by itself. Has anyone else noticed this or am I off on my own here?

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: firebug on <09-10-14/1817:38>

A lot of interesting responses!

The bringing up the color palette of the books is interesting, and I do think it's worth looking into. A big thing with SR4 was the transition to wireless matrix. That made the matrix universally so much more accessible. It was more focused on the wonder of the transfer of information than the danger it possessed. SR5 had the matrix "reigned in" by the corps and puts a bigger focus on the danger it can pose-- This is backed up by the more accessible cybercombat rules and the fact that just about anything can get wrecked on the web now.

The colors do reflect those themes. The SR4A (which is what was going on when I started) book felt more like Tron in its illustrations than Neuromancer. It had the adventurous nature of what the setting had become in mind, I'm sure. That is to say, an enormous world with layers and layers of intruigue. To paraphrase what Tecumseh said, after 25 years the setting had grown too much to just be classified as "cyberpunk dystopia" and ended up being a bit more than that. Or so I feel.

Then in 5th edition the colors returned and give it a much more severe appearance. Not quite grim or hopeless, but just more dangerous. The phrase "Everything has a price" doesn't take the much-needed aspect of hope away from the setting's theme, but it does explain it plainly: You will get nothing until you have sacrificed more than you bargained for. It reels in SR4A's explorative, adventurous feel and gives it more of a cautious, paranoid feeling, which I really like. In SR5, life is the Faustian Bargain and everyone is fighting to come out on top.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: Lusis on <09-10-14/1826:39>

(This may ramble a bit, ;) but some of my thoughts)

I love SR, but there are giant plot holes in it's meta-verse.

For instance, we have giant corporations responsible for oppressing everyone, where if you aren't corp you are living out of a broken refrigerator in the barrens. Contrary to reason, the megacorps, by definition, are able to sell product. Yet, we are told, those inside the corps, i.e. "wageslaves", get access to corp goods with corp pay via one giant economic circlejerk. Problem is, this means that these corps are almost completely stagnant in terms of growth, or possibly even shrinking. Thus, how can they afford to snatch up smaller corps without going under? Maybe there's mysterious magical product-buying gnomes somewhere.

Or perhaps, what you read in the books are the narrow viewpoints of a small, very cynical, very detached, jaded, subculture of a much larger world.

Consider that a corp with extraterritoriality really isn't so much a corp as it is a meta-state, much like a socialist state with a defined caste system of workers, managers, and executives. It "mints" it's own money, the internal economy is planned and centralized. It has it's own military. It's worker class to produces state goods much like in the USSR, Communist China, or even North Korea. The main difference between a state and a mega-corporation is that the latter is extremely dispersed geographically, and megacorps are driven by profit and must maintain market competitiveness, keeping them very efficient compared to modern communist states, (though the megacorps could tolerate inefficiency much better than smaller ones can).

As much as Aztechnology or SK want to rule the world, the bottom line is that it is next to impossible to do so. They can buy politicians to regulate the hell out of various industries and markets, as large corporations can endure the cost of such better than small businesses can, and use regulation as a weapon against emerging competitors. Like the modern world, this would create a relativity stagnant economy, such as European social democracies have experienced. However, to my knowledge, the SR world lacks entitlement programs enabled by foreign investment and military support. Therefore, people must be employed somewhere to keep buying the megacorp's products. It stands to reason that there should be thousands upon thousands of A corps and smaller employing workers, especially considering the population is a little down from the cataclysms in SR.

I for one, would love to read something from the viewpoint of what would, in a reality containing such wealthy producers of consumer goods, be a decently-sized middle class that is not necessarily part of a megacorp.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: firebug on <09-10-14/1958:56>

I actually don't come across much that literally says you're either part of a corp or homeless in the barrens. Also, while this doesn't solve much of the "where's all the non-corps?" I believe it states there's a lot of independent talismongers and other magic-related sellers due to it being a "there's always a demand" niche. Of course, these guys are also the ones bought up as quick as possible too.

The books actually do establish that the megacorps are not the only corps. Some prewritten adventures involve established AA corps and below too, I think. It probably is a perspective issue like you said after the first paragraph-- The books are mostly written from the viewpoint of what it's like in Seattle unless it specifically states otherwise. The rest of the world (except other well-known sprawls) tend to be more lax, and the books don't go into detail on them all the time. It makes sense though-- It's the entire world we're talking about here.

I'm not expert (really) but there's some very well-read people on this forum who could talk about that topic with you and find a "solution" of sorts. If it doesn't happen in this thread, I totally suggest you create a new thread to discuss it. It'll end up pages long I'm sure.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: Lusis on <09-10-14/2005:53>

Kinda did already: http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12703.0
I really want to write that book - I just need the corp to sign off on it! 8)

Yeah I did overstate the income disparity in SR, although the world is pretty much between rich and "fuck, I'm eating toothpaste to stay alive".

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <09-11-14/0246:19>

Quote from: Lusis on <09-10-14/1826:39>

I love SR, but there are giant plot holes in it's meta-verse.

(Clipped for space, but: giant corporations, nobody else, stagnant economy.)

I'd describe that as you reading the metaverse more literally than perhaps you should. There is more than just 'the megacorporations and the Barrens'; you have only to look at the four types of SINner Quality to understand that. However, let's break it down a bit more clearly.

Let's start with the gross domestic product of the planet - the value of all final goods and services produced by that country (or, if it's GCP instead of GDP, corporation). The World Bank estimates 2013 had it at just under 75 trillion, and as 'current' SR follows 'current day' pretty closely, just in nuyen instead of USD, we'll use that. The US and the EU each account for just about 17 trillion of that 75; China, with its 1.3 billion citizens, 'only' 9 trillion. Now, the Big 10 cut into that a lot - because they get to be considered independent of that amount, their GCP feeding into no country (the way, say, WalMart feeds into the US GDP), but as has been pointed out (in the SR3 Corporate Download, IIRC), while the Big Ten megacorporations outproduce most small countries, they are by no means the biggest individual economies in the world.

So in modern terms ... Mexico? Australia? Canada? Brazil? These are all 1.25-2.5 trillion dollar (nuyen) concerns in the modern world, Mexico being that 1.25 trillion GDP, and at #15 on the World Bank list. Aztechnology equals Aztlan, but on the books, they are seperate, and though Aztlan is Mexico + Central America, there are still other non-Aztechnology corporations in the place, selling their goods and services to Aztlaner citizenry. Let's drop down a bit further - Philippines, Egypt, Finland, Greece. 250 billion in annual production. That's a decent medium-sized country, but 250+ billion is what WalMart, the biggest corporation in the world, is doing today. So the Big 10 are bigger than WalMart ... let's call 1.25 trillion nuyen a good average benchmark for the gross corporate product of the Big Ten. That's literally five times as big as WalMart - and equal to Mexico. It's also money that is part of no national GDP; that's pure company.

Do the math, subtract 12.5 trillion from 75 trillion, leaving 63.75 trillion. Now, we have AA multinationals, of which there are scores, if not hundreds. Their cash flow is part of no country either; let's say, for argument's sake, that there are 300 AAs, with an average gross corporate product of ... 7% of the Big 10. Oh, there are lots who are bigger than that, but there are also lots who are smaller - because a billion-dollar company is still going to be in there punching, a tough AA to take over, while the 50-billion-dollar AA is gunning for a position at the Big Boy's Table. That's an average, by the way, of 87.5 billion dollars of products and services produced. With 300 AAs, that still leaves 36.250 trillion nuyen for the rest of the world.

Sounds like a lot? It is and it isn't.

We need to go back to our numbers and crank in another set: population. Current GDP-per-capita (per person in the world) is actually only $10,345 - product produced per person on the planet. That's income, if you like, but it applies to everyone, whether 2-day-old infant, 30-year-old worker, or 60-year-old CEO. Take, oh, 0.3% of the world for each AAA (almost 22 million people as having corporate citizenship) and 10% of that - 0.03% - as being exclusive corporate citizens of each AA, and you have the following GDP per capita numbers:

Country	GDP	Population	GDP per capita
World	$75 trillion	7.25 billion	$10,345
United States	$16,800,000,000,000	318,713,00	$52,712
China	$9,240,270,000,000	1,366,650,000	$6,761
Japan	$4,901,530,000,000	127,130,000	$38.555
UK	$2,522,261,000,000	63,489,000	$39,728
Germany	$3,634,823,000,000	80,781,000	$44,996
Brazil	$2,245,673,000,000	203,130,000	$11,055
Canada	$1,825,096,000,000	35,427,524	$51,516

Individual AAA	$1,250,000,000,000	21,750,000	$57,471
Individual AA	$87,500,000,000	2,175,000	$40,230
SR World Non-AAA/AA	$36,250,000,000,000	6,380,000,000	$5,682

This is, understand, an average. I don't earn $52,000 a year any more than Bill Gates does - just in the opposite direction. I also don't make only $10,000 a year - but according to this, all of China gets by on less than that amount. Using the AAA and AA numbers, this means that while the people in the corporations are living the secure life like all of us in the USA, everyone else has to scrape by on less than what the Chinese are getting.

That, of course, doesn't happen; there are still the haves and the have-nots - 6.38 billion of 'em. They're the ones who are buying 'stuff', whether via corporations (the tens of thousands of A-rated nationals and under) or just at home. For every bum trying to live on 20¥/week - that's 1040¥ per year - there's someone with a wife and three kids who's pulling in 30,000¥ a year.

Shadowrun, its writers, its GMs, and shadowrunners - the IC writers of the books - tend to accentuate the differences between the top rollers and the gutter. Difference is where the story is. But though the middle class is receeding, they aren't completely gone - and when you get down to it, six-pluss billion lower-class National-SIN owners spending 50¥ is still a big chunk of change.

The economy still exists. It is in no way flat, or stale. The Big Ten megacorporations are centrally planned, yes, but they're fighting each other for market share, fighting tough AAs, inventive A's, ain't-gonna-quit mom-and-pop stores. And while yes, in many places there is a certain level of 'I buy everything from Shiawase!!', that really only kicks in at corporate HQ - and sometimes not even then, because people are people, and not everyone is a 'ONLY MY COMPANY'S PRODUCTS OR I DIE!!!' fanatic.

EDIT: Note that this is amount produced, not controlled. The US can be said to produce the above amount, and yet effectively control the amount produced by itself, much of the EU, and a good third of China - not to mention lots of other nations. The US is currently still in the driver seat of the world economy, though this is changing. 'Control' does not mean 'produce'; 'control' also does not mean 'leaves everyone else starving on the side of the road'.

See also my post (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12703.msg234518#msg234518) in the thread Lusis quotes.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: Wakshaani on <09-11-14/1055:26>

I love you and I want to have your babies.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <09-11-14/1126:00>

You keep saying that, but you never call, you never write ... :D

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: Nath on <09-11-14/1440:54>

Quote from: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <09-11-14/0246:19>

Now, we have AA multinationals, of which there are scores, if not hundreds. Their cash flow is part of no country either; let's say, for argument's sake, that there are 300 AAs, with an average gross corporate product of ... 7% of the Big 10.

Unless Stolen Souls chapters I have yet to read introduce two hundred new megacorporations, there are about fifty AA-rated corporations (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=13408.msg247947#msg247947) who have been mentioned in the canon and would be currently operating as of 2075.

Considering most of the world has been covered and AA ought to be significant enough to have noticeable presence, I wouldn't expect the number to rise much above that line (China, India and Indonesia are big enough to have dozens of large corporations we have yet to read about, but on the other hand AA are supposed to operate in multiple countries...).

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: Kincaid on <09-11-14/1444:13>

I pray that writers never get to the point where they're trying to come up with an exhaustive list of AA corps.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: Wakshaani on <09-11-14/2208:04>

Quote from: Kincaid on <09-11-14/1444:13>

I pray that writers never get to the point where they're trying to come up with an exhaustive list of AA corps.

It's a hobby for some of us. :)

In my personal head cannon, the Corporate Court has a list. There are X number of Triple A corps, with a finite number based on how many corporate court judges there are. By definition, you can't have more AAA-rated than judges, since the rating gives you the right to have a seat on the big board.

Below that, there are exactly 50 Double-A's. This is the extra-territorial level and this is where you are officially a Big Deal. Those at the top of the list (#'s 11-15, for example) are all circling like hungry sharks, waiting to make a big move when someone above gets weak, so that the can take their seat and their rating. The competition keeps 'em hungry. At the BOTTOM of that list, #'s 45-50, or maybe 40-50, it's similar, but everyone knows that one wrong move can get you de-listed. Those guys are *paranoid* about losing their precious Double-A standards and, like any animal backed into a corner, will fight wildly.

After that, the rest of the Big 500 is filled out with single A-rated corps (Which, honestly, we can never have enough of) ... Big enough to catch the Court's eye, small enough to be prey for the real players.

The vast majority of companies aren't rated as they aren't big enough. There are tens of thousands of them, but they don't "count" in a way.

Again, this is just what's in my head.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <09-12-14/0057:52>

*plugs in new numbers, yes I did create a spreadsheet, don't judge me, dammit*

Well. That actually makes it ... oddly enough, closer to bearable, so to speak - and also closer to the numbers used in that other thread. 300 AAs swallow a lot of what's available; reducing that number to 50 actually allows us to increase the amount the AAAs directly produce/control, to the '25% of the world's wealth' Wobbly claims in the Corporate Download quote. Let's throw this up there ...

Country

GDP / GCP

Population

GDP/GCP Per Capita

RL World	$75,000,000,000,000	7,250,000,000	$10,345
US	$16,800,000,000,000	318,713,000	$52,712
China	$9,240,270,000,000	1,366,650,000	$6,761
Japan	$4,901,530,000,000	127,130,000	$38,555
UK	$2,522,261,000,000	63,489,000	$39,728
Germany	$3,634,823,000,000	80,781,000	$44,996
Brazil	$2,245,673,000,000	203,130,000	$11,055
Canada	$1,825,096,000,000	35,427,524	$51,516

Big 10	Controlling 25%
AAA (One)	$1,875,000,000,000	21,750,000	$86,207
AA (One)	$131,250,000,000	2,175,000	$60,345
AAA (All 10)	$18,750,000,000,000	217,500,000	$86,207
AA (All 50)	$6,562,500,000,000	108,750,000	$60,345
Rest of SR World	$49,687,500,000,000	6,923,750,000	$7,176

Big 10	Controlling 40%
AAA (One)	$3,000,000,000,000	21,750,000	$137,931
AA (One)	$210,000,000,000	2,175,000	$96,552
AAA (All 10)	$30,000,000,000,000	217,500,000	$137,931
AA (All 50)	$10,500,000,000,000	108,750,000	$96,552
Rest of SR World	$34,500,000,000,000	6,923,750,000	$4,983

Fewer sharks in the water means more pie for everyone - but hitting that 40% I spoke about reduces the rest of the world into general penury. As a note, I have the amount the AAs control hooked directly into the amount the AAAs do - a AA averages 7% of what a AAA does, so when the Big 10 go up, so do the multinationals. 25% puts people overall better than China's current average, but still worse off than the current planetary; 40% would really suck eggs for everyone else, putting them under China's current. I think I'd stick with the 25%.

I tell ya, getting rid of those 250 AAs really let me boost the percent the Big 10 controlled; previously it was about 1/6th, 16.667%. And this really increases the amount the 'haves' possess - a AAA corporate citizen averages over $86k/year ...

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: Ariketh on <09-12-14/0208:40>

At one point there was a spreadsheet floating around here and Dumpshock, IIRC, where some enterprising soul had compiled a list of all the SR corps, their subsidiaries (if known), their rating (if known) and references where applicable. I want to say it was accurate up through SR3 and maybe early SR4. But I can't find the copy I downloaded anywhere.

Wait, Nath, weren't you said enterprising soul? Or am I mixing you up with someone else?

-Ariketh

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: Wakshaani on <09-12-14/0449:11>

Keep in mind that average corp citizen is heavily influenced by the top wage-earners. What's the old line? "Bill Gates walks into a bar with four homeless guys: The average net worth of everyne there is $4 Billion." Something like that. The CEO and high-level execs make Mad Bank, while the middle managers get by at Middle and the majority of office drones are pulling in around 25K a year.

Figure 500$ a week for the peons, who work 72 hour weeks, comes in at around 7 Nuyen an hour, (Well, they mostly get paid in corp scrip, but hey.)

Oh, and there's another way the Big Ten cackle at the rest. There's probably an official Z-O Bank affiliate at each of teh Big Ten which allows you to convert your scrip to Nuyen at a 10% cut. (You can also convert Nuyen to Scrip at no cost. They're nice that way!) ... So, if you want to go vacation for a week, you can cash in your onhand scrip and go off the reserve. That'll probably come up in your next performance review, of course. :)

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <09-12-14/0531:38>

Quote from: Wakshaani on <09-12-14/0449:11>

Figure 500$ a week for the peons, ~~who work 72 hour weeks~~, comes in at around 7 Nuyen an hour, (Well, they mostly get paid in corp scrip, but hey.)

You never, never run your people into the ground. 48 hour work weeks? Sure. 50? Maybe. 60? If you really want to press it. Here's the catch, though, if you do that - and it's a double-whammy.

First, they break down. 10 hour days, seven days a week? Even 12 hour days, six days a week - the body wears out. You get tired. 60 hour work-weeks are seriously tough, that's working literally half the day, 3/4 of your waking time - maybe less, but then you're getting less actual sleep. You wind up working yourself into exhaustion. You can bet that the corporation has working hours cost/benefit plotted out to a T, and running people into the ground just doesn't pay back the time it takes to train them. The best point is probably going to be a 50-hour work week - 8 hour days, 7 days a week, or five by 10 hour days. At ¥7/hour, that's ¥350/week, which is ¥17,500 per 50-work-week year. (Gotta give 'em a few days for 'vacation' - even if that's just time off to replace sick days.)

Second, if they're too exhausted to do stuff, they'll be too exhausted to give their hard-earned corp scrip back to the company. If you're dead-beat exhausted, who can take the time to buy something serious and prep it? A Nukit cup of Soy-Noodles and off to bed. From the corporate point of view, employee leisure time is time they're earning the corporation money too - by purchasing their products. And this is something you want.

We love to overestimate how many hours people work a week, but when there are only 168 hours, and roughly 56 of them are going to be spend in unconsciousness ... try not to eat up too much of the last 112 at work. ;)

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: Wakshaani on <09-12-14/1157:04>

Six 12-hour days, yeah. This is actually softer than it was doen back in the Industrial Revolution, and is fairly commonplace in high-pressure jobs today... many Japanese office workers have a 40 hour schedule but "Mandantory overtime" is well-understood, pushing weeks to 70-80 hours on a constant basis for years. You see the same in Wall Street, and even unpaid interns regularly put in 60 hour work weeks for no pay at all (While going to school!) ... Yeah, it's abusive, but the real world shouldn't be *more* harsh than the dystopian one, right?

Heck, there's a song about the 80 hour Japanese work week, based on the phrase "Monday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Friday."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fFJYSHnMM6Q

The scary thing is how much of this is UNPAID overtime.

This overwork is what leads to workers sleeping on trains (or sometimes at work, with co-workers sepping in to save them), and the existance of coffin motels for those workers who have stayed so late that they've missed the last train home, so need a place to sleep overnight to go back in the morning. Common enough to create an entire industry, that one.

Now, keep in mind, this kind of insane workload is only really seen in the high-pressure corporate world. Normal people doing, say, retail or food services, they clock their hours and then go home at normal hours like normal people. They also get paid far less.

For the INdustrial Revolution side, 10 hour workdays were the norm (With Sunday off for church, otherwise six days a week), with 12 hours days the norm in the Steel Industry. Child labor was also in effect, with children miners putting in a work day from 4 AM to 5 AM (Admitedly, this was more than the norm), while 6-day, 14 hour factory shifts were fine for kids, who frequently lost limbs/parts/lives in the machinery.

Worker rights formed up and shut that kind of thing down eventually, but it's something that was done for decades and, even today, farmers tend to put in 10-12 hour days, six days a week, and often half-days on Sunday.

72 hours is probably more excessive than it should be (Probably 60 hours if we were more realistic), but, you know, depressing distopia rules are in effect. :)

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: DeathStrobe on <09-12-14/1159:32>

To be fair Wyrm, it is possible to keep the corp employee highly productive with a combination of a sleep regulator and long haul, and probably a few other choice pieces of ware and drugs. This is a dystopian setting. So it fits the themes to push employees to the breaking point where they're eventually kicked out and become Neo Anarchists and start to run the shadows.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: Lusis on <09-12-14/1431:24>

Eh. It's an immersion thing for me. It's simply not believeable that everyone outside of the 1% is dirt poor and expect there to be so much wealth and innovation.

Speaking of innovation. Usually when something becomes too expensive for a large portion of the citizenry, someone will find a way to sell something cheaper in its place. Take Uber and Lyft for current examples.

Work hours are largely a cultural thing. What works in Japan won't in France; and might in the US, depending on compensation. Sleep regs and drugs might sell to the higher execs and the wall street crowd, but not everyone will be on board.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: Nath on <09-12-14/1529:22>

Quote from: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <09-12-14/0057:52>

Well. That actually makes it ... oddly enough, closer to bearable, so to speak - and also closer to the numbers used in that other thread. 300 AAs swallow a lot of what's available; reducing that number to 50 actually allows us to increase the amount the AAAs directly produce/control, to the '25% of the world's wealth' Wobbly claims in the Corporate Download quote. Let's throw this up there ...

The actual line is from Corporate Download "The amount of assets the Big Ten claim is almost beyond scale, easily accounting for at least a quarter of the world's wealth (in all likelihood, this figure is much higher, especially if you estimate secrets funds and hidden ownership)."

So the 25% figure would rather apply to assets, not GDP. The order of magnitude is similar, a bit higher, with estimated world wealth between 100 and 250 billions (depending on sources). But what it represents is a completely different thing. For instance, debt is subtracted from wealth when issued, while it is subtracted from GDP when repaid. Also, when a natural disaster destroys your house, it destroys wealth, but it doesn't make a dent in GDP - but rebuilding a new one will nonetheless contribute to GDP (actually, without a home, it's likely your economical contribution will actually be lower, thus reducing GDP).

The shift to the east is also slower when it comes to wealth than GDP: US still has about 30% of the world wealth, and China is just catching up on Japan's 10%.

Quote from: Ariketh on <09-12-14/0208:40>

At one point there was a spreadsheet floating around here and Dumpshock, IIRC, where some enterprising soul had compiled a list of all the SR corps, their subsidiaries (if known), their rating (if known) and references where applicable. I want to say it was accurate up through SR3 and maybe early SR4. But I can't find the copy I downloaded anywhere.

Wait, Nath, weren't you said enterprising soul? Or am I mixing you up with someone else?

That was me. That list is supposed to cover most of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition, up to System Failure. I stopped having the time for such tedious task around the same time I graduated from university and started working (and, ok, let's admit it, World of Warcraft was released). I have a file where I started compiling new data, up to Corporate Enclaves page 58, but 4th edition quick pace left me hopeless to ever catch up.

http://nmath.free.fr/onyx/depot/Corporate%20Index%202065.xls

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: Ariketh on <09-12-14/1540:26>

Quote from: Nath on <09-12-14/1529:22>

Quote from: Ariketh on <09-12-14/0208:40>
At one point there was a spreadsheet floating around here and Dumpshock, IIRC, where some enterprising soul had compiled a list of all the SR corps, their subsidiaries (if known), their rating (if known) and references where applicable. I want to say it was accurate up through SR3 and maybe early SR4. But I can't find the copy I downloaded anywhere.

Wait, Nath, weren't you said enterprising soul? Or am I mixing you up with someone else?
That was me. That list is supposed to cover most of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition, up to System Failure. I stopped having the time for such tedious task around the same time I graduated from university and started working (and, ok, let's admit it, World of Warcraft was released). I have a file where I started compiling new data, up to Corporate Enclaves page 58, but 4th edition quick pace left me hopeless to ever catch up.

http://nmath.free.fr/onyx/depot/Corporate%20Index%202065.xls

Cool! Thanks for the link. And yeah, I can understand projects sliding due to MMOs. :) It's happened to me more than once. Even if it's not accurate up to present day, there's still tons of information there to work with.

Thanks again!

-Ariketh

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: firebug on <09-12-14/1632:28>

Lusis' point about immersion reminds me of something I thought once, too.

Everyone working 72+ hours doesn't quite make sense if only because the setting makes it clear that a lot of entertainment still thrives, from VR MMOs to live concerts (in this day and age!) and hell, there's even still a zoo in Seattle. The club and bar scene is still known to be very popular too. Like with what Wyrm said, for these things to be profitable, people need to still have the time and money to spend on them. Especially with the existence of VR matrix games, it means there's still got to be a large amount of people with a good amount of free time who are making a decent amount of money (buying a good comm, sim module, and grid access isn't too cheap I'm sure, and the games themselves likely suck as much nuyen as they can).

While a lot of it would be "people in the Sixth World need as much escapism as possible" they still actually need the resources to achieve that. More circling back to Wyrm's comments about scrip-circles.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: Ursus Maior on <09-13-14/1125:57>

Quote from: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <09-11-14/0246:19>

Huge post about GDP.

Ouroboros, did you take into account that many AAAs and AAs consist of many smaller companies that only together form the megacorp they are perceived to be? Often that means that SK-Prime or the Novatech (back in the day) are not producing anything. They just own and decide top level policies.

Just so you don't devide the cake multiple times, when in fact all products are produced in the lower levels of the hierarchy, but the producing companies don't own large parts of their sites or tools (or employees). As these might be part of other companies etc.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <09-13-14/2355:48>

Ursus, I think you're confusing ... actually, I'm not sure what you're confusing. GDP is a measure of the value of goods produced and services rendered. I confess that I used it improperly, as a benchmark for 'how much people make', somewhat as a measure of what people get paid; Nath gently called me on it, and he's got lots of great points (AAAs control 25% of the wealth, not 25% of the GGP (Gross Global Product?)). Me, I used the GDP as a benchmark because I have no frickin' idea how/where to look up other regular information, or what it'd be called, etc. etc.

Either way, we aren't needing to account for 'pure management' corporations. Saeder-Krupp may have SK-Prime, which is a management/troubleshooting 'corporation', but nobody should argue that they do not add value (by way of efficiency and increasing production) to any corporation over which they possess oversight. Nobody should argue either that SK as a whole does not Produce Stuff or Render Services - it ain't the largest megacorporation in the world by dint of being a complete and total management conglomerate. (Horizon, maybe.) That means that what is considered SK, and what adds to SK, is only SK, management corporation fragments or not.

And no, I'm not double-dipping or whatever; I'm looking at full-bore owns-itself corporations, not owned by other corporations - or which, even if they are, can either make a strong argument for being effectively independent, or else feed other megacorporations only as much as their slice allows. I mean, we have what, only 60 corporations we're talking about up above? And the sum total is of every 'slice'. If anything, I may be underestimating what the AAA and AA corporations control/produce, as compared to the A and sub-nationals.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: Ursus Maior on <09-14-14/1345:28>

Thanks Ouroboros for the clarification. I just wasn't sure you were talking about wealth or gross products, too.

The numbers are scary though and I concurr, the megacorps might be even more powerful and wealthy. From how I perceive the recent supplements however, I guess the former "first world countries" are hugely diffrent in comparison amongst each other. Far more than today. I'm not sure, I agree with UCAS being 17% ahead of Germany in terms of average per capita income though. I perceive the UCAS to be very authoritarian, which usually lowers per capita income since - though the few rich people mass up money - that does not compensate for the many poorer people. However you figures might look very diffrent if you would not calculate average, but median income. In the end that might give a good insight into how extreme Economic inequality actually is. Both in regards to one society and in comparision between societies.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <09-14-14/1402:27>

Uh ... the above numbers are last year's World Bank GDP. Those are relatively hard facts, with relatively minor variations between different sources.

And if you're perceiving the UCAS as being 'very authoritarian', I don't think you quite understand what the term 'authoritarian' means. As well, since I only possess a) GDP numbers and b) population, I can only do a GDP-per-capita calculus - not a median income. Provide me income figures, and we can talk.

As for Germany in Shadowrun? ... I don't think there's a single non-aristocratic/theocratic state in the old German boundaries, but I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong - I'm well away from my Germany sourcebook right now.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: Lusis on <09-14-14/1809:53>

Any idea on the relative size of the black market is in SR?

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: firebug on <09-14-14/1830:48>

Quote from: Lusis on <09-14-14/1809:53>

Any idea on the relative size of the black market is in SR?

I believe the size is "Yes".

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: Lusis on <09-14-14/1902:43>

Heh. I mean in numbers.

The estimated BM today is $1.829 trillion US (link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_market#Size_of_the_global_black_markets)). I believe that's outside of the calculated GWP.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: ZeldaBravo on <09-14-14/2028:33>

I might be wrong, but I think that cyberpunk and postcyberpunk are the same in most contexts. They are not describing the thing that was before (cyberpunk) and the thing that came after (post cyberpunk). These genres describe the same thing but from different points of view. Cyberpunk protagonists are postcyberpunk antagonists and vice versa. Look at the newest Deus Ex game: you are the company man that tries to get things back to normal. And your enemys are typical 'good guys' in any cyberpunk novel or company men from rival corps.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: Parker on <09-15-14/0328:07>

Makes sense. Kinda like 'Cyberpunk' was the adolescent phase and 'post-Cyberpunk' has become the matured phase of the game. Way back in 2nd Edition, when I was a just a player, my main character was a street-mage who I now, as a post-4th edition GM, have him as a Draco Foundation NPC contact for my group. But heh, that's my two copper... 8)

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: Ursus Maior on <09-15-14/1157:22>

Quote from: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <09-14-14/1402:27>

And if you're perceiving the UCAS as being 'very authoritarian', I don't think you quite understand what the term 'authoritarian' means. As well, since I only possess a) GDP numbers and b) population, I can only do a GDP-per-capita calculus - not a median income. Provide me income figures, and we can talk.

As for Germany in Shadowrun? ... I don't think there's a single non-aristocratic/theocratic state in the old German boundaries, but I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong - I'm well away from my Germany sourcebook right now.

Seems we started off of the wrong food, I didn't want to come across as harsh. Just asking for mor insight on the subject, since I think a discussion purely on average income(s) does not give a lot of insight on what living in the SR universe means to anyone, especially the masses. That is why I asked about median income values. Let me explain:

Edit: In the following text I commonly refer to gross domestic product as GDP and to purchasing power parity as PPP. The GDP is defined by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) as "an aggregate measure of production equal to the sum of the gross values added of all resident institutional units engaged in production (plus any taxes, and minus any subsidies, on products not included in the value of their outputs)." The PPP on the other hand is a technique used to determine the relative value of different currencies. It thus exists to enable us to compare diffrent GDPs. [Thanks Ouroboros.]

The International Monetary Fund rates the USA at 53,101 $ GDP per capita (that ist of course PPP as the US-Dollar is also the unit for measurement) . This is close to numbers by the World Bank (53,143 $), the OECD (55,047$) and the CIA (est. 52,800$ in 2013). For Germany the numbers are 40,007$ (IMF), 43,332$ (WB), 42,121$ (OECD) and 39,500& (CIA) respectively. The countries vary from from ranking 6th (USA in the IMF ranking) to 21st (Germany in the CIA's table) though. They are both thus far outmatched by countries like Qatar or Luxemburg. Both are small, rich states that seem to be much harder to grasp for economists as there per capita GDPs vary considerably from source to source (Qatar: 98,814$ in the IMF table, but 131,758$ in the WB statistics; Luxembourg 78,670$ in IMF statistics and 90,790$ in those of the World Bank).

I took all figures from Wikioedia for simplicity'S sake: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita

These are pure income values, although PPP has already been established. It doesn't say anything about compulsory deduction, which can be very high (on average 49.1 percent in Germany) or rather low (on average 29.6 percent in the USA). Again, the magic word is "average", as taxes are often tied to the income level, while health insurance prices might not be. Any and all compulsory deductions might be capped at some level however, leaving those earning above the cap with more netto of your brutto income.

This leaves us with hugely diffrent amounts of gross income compared to disposable income. The OECD figures the US population to have a gross income of 55,047$ in average, but the disposable income is only 38,753$. The population of Germany however seem to have it far worse. While the gross income is already considerably lower at 42,121$, the hefty reduction of 49.1 percent allows only for 21,187$ of disposable income on average. Are Germans thus only half as rich as Americans? Is the powerhouse of the European Union in fact an impoverished second tier country OECD statistics compared to Americas first place might suggest? Especially since America is ranked first in the OECD statistics and Germany is ranked 16th, far behind Japan (11th) and South Korea (8th)?

Let's get back to the problem with average income as a source for information on how people in a society fare. It's obvious that the numbers are easy to obtain for any state that runs a (working) tax and revenue system. However the average is calculated by "the amount obtained by dividing the total aggregate income of a group by the number of units in that group" (again taking from Wikipedia for sake of transparency: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income). It's a completely fictional sum, as there is no guarantee that anyone earns exactly that amount. It also tells nothing about how many people earn considerably below that figure and how many earn considerably more. Thus it tells you nothing about income equality.

Median income does not, at least to some degree; and median household income even tells you how much money is available per household, giving insight into what families might have at their disposal. On the downside relying on "household" means you loose all diffrences between single households, couples and large families. It simply states "what's in the pot".

And again, the population of the USA have a higher median income than people living in Germany. In the US the median household income is 30,932$, while in Germany it is only 24,623$ -- again it's already PPP. This still places Germany far behind the US (again on the first spot), ranking 12th on the list. But Germany is doing far better than South Korea (16th) and Japan (22nd) this time. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income)

Still not good enough though. Societies do not thrive on money only, let alone income. In the US the disposable income is always a much higher percentage of your gross income, no matter if you count median, average or your personal income. With an average deduction of 49.1 percent, Germans seem to loose almost half the earnings before they can even spend it. Or do they?

Right now, most Germans pay about 8.2 percent of their income directly to their mandatory health insurance provider and further 8-9 percent of your income tax goes to the churches and a couple of percent fund the federal unemployment and social services fonds. Since that is all handled by the government, you don't even get your full income monthly. All deductions are immediately transferred from your employer to the state. If you now deduct all these spendings the average American does not have to make, you land closer to the disposable income of Americans.

Still however inequality between income classes reigns madly in these statistics. Since money buys lots of things, but income doesn't tell you about equality and the development level of the society, we should also look at the human development index. It factors life expectancy, education and income. Now the USA is no longer in the first place, but on the fifth with Germany on the sixth, rich Luxembourg on the 21st and Qatar on the 31st.

This time, all factors are an aggregation of the whole society, giving no average or median figure for the HDI. For this there is the inequality adjusted HDI, which is usually lower than a coutnries respective HDI. Since the IHDI figures are concerned about average persons and views the unadjusted HDI as a potentially achievable figure were there no inequality.

Quote

"The IHDI takes into account not only the average achievements of a country on health, education and income, but also how those achievements are distributed among its population by “discounting” each dimension’s average value according to its level of inequality. The IHDI is distribution-sensitive average level of HD. Two countries with different distributions of achievements can have the same average HDI value. Under perfect equality the IHDI is equal to the HDI, but falls below the HDI when inequality rises. The difference between the IHDI and HDI is the human development cost of inequality, also termed – the loss to human development due to inequality."

http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/inequality-adjusted-human-development-index-ihdi

The United States have only weak mechanisms of control for the federal government when it comes to internal matters. That is by design and seems to be something many Americans want to keep. The result however is an enormous inequality in education, which directly influences income, health insurance and thus health and longevity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States). About ten times more people earn half or less of the average income than duoble or more. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States)

If the initial assumption that the SR universe closely follows ours still stands, than this inequality should be the case for SR, too. However, after we deducted the corp's assets from the national economies, there is less to distribute. History shows that wars and financial crises lead to more inequality, if there are no strong governments that are willing the "keep the flock together" and spend huge sums on re-equalization programs. Here it starts to get tricky for SR. The whole world has basically been rocked by crises for almost all of the 21st century. So either governments managed to steer through the storms and kept the status quo in equality, or they failed.

Most likely the ultra rich simply fled into the megacorps, taking their money with them. In that case however, the nations would have benefitted from programmes to make it unlikely for richt people to "emigrate" into the megacorps. Something like a "you can leave, but your money stays"-laws. That's tricky, as it puts a nation on a collision course with the Corporate Court at some point. That however would make every nation state a 1990s Russia or a 1920s Germany just waiting for a strong leader to stabilize it, but with little care for international relations. It also comes across very authoritarian and forces the state to develop secret services that monitor everyone, but especially the rich. With everyone generating huge amounts of metadata about himself constantly, that becomes easier though.

In short, with national economies forced to give up huge parts of their financial power and with a world wide "warrior culture" and huge and violent cultures of anarchism, anti-establishment and shadowy corp wars, as well as constant wars and skirmishes world wide, I don't see how those nations in despair could not be vastly more authoritarian than today. Especially countries who are known to have huge militaries, large security apparatuses and thriving hate groups even today.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: Nath on <09-15-14/1751:11>

As far as the canon goes, megacorporations do pay taxes (Corporate Download, page 21, and Corporate Guide, page 20), even if they likely reduce it to a strict minimum through tax evasion just like their existing counterpart do.

The megacorporate privilege of extraterritoriality is not secession. Megacorporations are still operating inside the host country. Extraterritoriality applies to places, where local law applies accordingly to the international accord ratified by the local governement which require no legal proceeding to occur. If anything, the ownership, rent or lease of the land itself is subject to the host country law (and thus taxation), as they must be legally valid for extraterritoriality to apply upon the concerned facility.

It is likely that national fiscal resources are lower than they currently are, because of tax avoidance. Not that it would be possible for megacorporations to evade taxation more than the existing corporations already do, but rather because they represent a larger part of the economy.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: Crimsondude on <09-15-14/1826:19>

Post-Cyberpunk seem terrible because this seems inevitable and could be a campaign in such a genre, but even in cyberpunk corporations pretend to adhere to certain morals. In response to Urban Outfitter's horrible bloody Kent State vintage sweatshirt.

Quote

@PossumGraveyard
Can't wait for brands to start claiming responsibility for terror attacks. "We did it 4 teh awarze. Sorry those kids died lol."

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <09-16-14/0114:52>

Ursus Major, just as an aside - if you're going to use a term, such as 'GDP (PPP)', it is helpful to your readers if you define that term early - and often!! For those of you who don't know what 'GDP (PPP)' is, it's Gross Domestic Product at Purchasing Power Parity - a calculation which (according to the Wikipedia article) takes the yearly GDP of a locale and divides it by the average/mid-year population for that locale. Since estimates and assumptions have to be made, figures determined by different organizations can vary wildly (as UM showed), because they use different estimates and assumptions. What's often included, again according to the article, are such things as savings, relative cost of living, inflation rates, a common-basis currency instead of exchange-rate variances, and the like. The common-basis currency is the Geary-Khamis dollar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geary%E2%80%93Khamis_dollar), the value of which is determined either by a single point-of-value for the US dollar (right now commonly either 1990 or 2000) and/or the amount of a standard commodity (such as grain, gold, or whatever) that nation's currency could purchase.

(Interestingly enough, only the CIA estimates actually give a world per-capita number, as compared to both the International Money Fund (IMF) estimates and the World Bank hard data calculations.)

Going by the World Bank again (since that's what I used before), things do look a little different. Let's throw my prior estimates into the blender ... actually, let me do some calculatator work, see if I can't get close to a World number from the World Bank - grab the WB calculations, a population roster, and see if I can't multiply this out. 11:06pm.

11:51pm. Heh. I spend lots of time on some stuff, y'know?

Anyhow. Loading all these numbers in, doing some cross-reference, that sort of thing, we come up with ...

World Bank GDP: $73,982,138,000,000.
World Population: 7,148,688,446
GDP by Population: $10,349.05

World Bank GDP (PPP): $100,399,573,997,960.00
Population accounted for in GDP (PPP): 6,967,662,452
Unaccounted-for Population: 181,025,994

Average GDP (PPP) by accounted-for population: $14,409.36 (+39.23% from GDP)
Average GDP (PPP) by total population: $14,044.47 (+35.71% from GDP)

Looking between the GDP and the GDP (PPP), the "First World" nations (US, UK, Canada, Germany) generally stayed even (US, +0.82%) or went down somewhat (worst being Canada, -16.13%). The Second World developing nations (China, Brazil) went up some (Brazil, +35.99%) or a lot (China, +76.06%). Considering some of the others (Macau, Singapore, Luxembourg) I would estimate that the city-states would tend to jump considerably between the two, as of course do most of the oil-producing nations (Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, United Arab Emirates). Hmm ... 12:13

12:34. The things I do for fun ...

Interesting: the highest percentage increase from gross GDP per capita to GDP (PPP) - that's 'purchasing power parity', which as I understand it is 'what you can get for the money you make' - is Gaza and the West Bank, which goes from a GDP per capita of $883 to $4576 - +418.49%. Now, I'll concede that part of this may be exchange rate issues, but still.

In fact, nearly all of those that have a significant jump (+75% or more) between GDP and GDP (PPP) are Second or Third World countries - suggesting that, well, they actually get more for their 'buck' than their US-dollar-vaule GDP lets on, and yeah, I suppose the USD is valued more in such countries. But it does make a point - that when we think 'those poor people living in the West Bank on $2.42/day' are really living on an effective $12.54/day. Sure, a lot less than the effective US $145.60, but a lot more than the $2.42 the commercials babble on about, y'know?

So ... weird. Anyhow.

Unfortunately, Wikipedia's pages - the Median Household Income, the List of Countries by Average Wage, or the Household Income page - are as extensive as even the GDP (PPP) page; the first (which I tossed in here) does have some interesting numbers; the maximum Median Household Income as a percentage of the GDP (PPP) (meaning most household incomes are at that percentage) is Slovenia - 71.62%. The US is at 58.21%; Germany at 56.82%. Mexico, the lowest on the list, is at 27.29%.

No, I haven't bothered to fiddle with megacorporations, but I would expect that they might be a) higher on the GDP (PPP) than almost anyone, but have an average(ish) Median Household Income - which would make their percentage comparison between the two somewhat lower. People might have a higher absolute level, but the way it's perceived is certainly going to differ ...

Posted at 1:14. Just FYI. ;)

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: firebug on <09-16-14/0710:12>

Quote from: ZeldaBravo on <09-14-14/2028:33>

I might be wrong, but I think that cyberpunk and postcyberpunk are the same in most contexts. They are not describing the thing that was before (cyberpunk) and the thing that came after (post cyberpunk). These genres describe the same thing but from different points of view. Cyberpunk protagonists are postcyberpunk antagonists and vice versa. Look at the newest Deus Ex game: you are the company man that tries to get things back to normal. And your enemys are typical 'good guys' in any cyberpunk novel or company men from rival corps.

That's an interesting way to think about it. I haven't played Deus Ex so I can't use it as an example too well, but more examples would be interesting.

I don't know if it's that clear-cut though, of course. In Deus Ex, the "good guy antagonists" are people against the transhumanist movement, right? Like they dislike cybernetics technology and similar things. I don't know if that's what'd be considered good guys in the older cyberpunk things but I don't know if it was against the technology itself.

I'm curious as to how Shadowrun evolved from it. Like, the corps aren't considered Pure Evil (save for Aztechnology) but it's not that they've had a change of morals, it's more than it's undeniable that in order for people to be buying things, desirable stuff has to be produced. So they're just more cold, greedy, and immoral than specifically cruel and oppressive. Those things did not go away, but they take a back seat to Profit. Am I on the right track?

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: Lusis on <09-16-14/0802:17>

Kinda. Corps are just collections of people; and each has their own agenda. Most are benign; to keep their job, to get somewhere in life, to make their mark.

People rarely do people do evil for evil's sake. Usually they do it because there is some personal gain and they don't think about, or don't care, who it affects in the long term. Corps in SR are the centers of power, and in life power draws those who abuse it for their own ends ( much like politcians on RL).

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: Nath on <09-16-14/1724:57>

Quote from: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <09-16-14/0114:52>

Interesting: the highest percentage increase from gross GDP per capita to GDP (PPP) - that's 'purchasing power parity', which as I understand it is 'what you can get for the money you make' - is Gaza and the West Bank, which goes from a GDP per capita of $883 to $4576 - +418.49%. Now, I'll concede that part of this may be exchange rate issues, but still.

In fact, nearly all of those that have a significant jump (+75% or more) between GDP and GDP (PPP) are Second or Third World countries - suggesting that, well, they actually get more for their 'buck' than their US-dollar-vaule GDP lets on, and yeah, I suppose the USD is valued more in such countries. But it does make a point - that when we think 'those poor people living in the West Bank on $2.42/day' are really living on an effective $12.54/day. Sure, a lot less than the effective US $145.60, but a lot more than the $2.42 the commercials babble on about, y'know?

The Palestinian territories don't issue their own currency. They mostly use Israeli Shekel, Jordanian Dinar and US Dollar. So the exchange rate is not the issue there.

Exchange rates depend on how much the local currency is valued by people who do have US dollars (or Euro, or Pounds, or Swiss Francs...). So, in most case (actually, nearly all case, except for countries like China or Saudi Arabia), people who do not belong to that country, mostly foreign companies who wants to buy something valuable there.

Beyond mere exchange rates, the main difference between nominal amount and purchasing power parity is local cost of living. One apple will be cheaper in Gaza than it is in New York, even if you pay both in US dollar. Because the grocery store rent is cheaper, the truck driver salary was cheaper, etc. Obviously, few people are willing to move into Gaza to buy an apple, or an apartment, or shares in a local company. Demand is low, so price goes down.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: ProfessorCirno on <09-17-14/0043:54>

The thing that tends to be forgotten in this discussion is that the PCs exist.

There's your optimism and ray of light. Despite what SR4 tried to paint, you can be a Runner and still be a "good guy."

For me going full Cyberpunk is a perfect fit because hey, it gives the PCs something to build up.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: TheWanderingJewels on <09-17-14/2321:24>

Wikipedia offers this rough explanation of the Cyberpunk Genre: "Cyberpunk is a science fiction genre noted for its focus on "high tech and low life." The name is derived from cybernetics and punk and was originally coined by Bruce Bethke as the title of his short story "Cyberpunk," published in 1983, although the style was popularized well before its publication by editor Gardner Dozois. It features advanced science, such as information technology and cybernetics, coupled with a degree of breakdown or radical change in the social order."

While once true, the term "high-tech low-life's" doesn't really encapsulate how the genre has evolved over the years. While it was largely true that the first Cyberpunk heroes were "Marginalized, alienated loners who lived on the edge of society in generally dystopic futures where daily life was impacted by rapid technological change, an ubiquitous datasphere of computerized information, and invasive modification of the human body" such as in the anime Bubblegum Crisis. Early Cyberpunk tended to be heavily influenced by film noir movies. The modern Classic Blade Runner was the Apogee of this line of writing

Cyberpunk has since then evolved into to seeing how technology (particularly cybernetics) affects society at large. Examples of this later evolution are available in the Ghost In The Shell Series of films and OVA's as well as the modern classic films Appleseed & Vexille, where in while society has changed, the characters are largely humanly recognizable instead of film noir archtypes, though surrounded by exceptionally advanced technology and possibly having biological or cybernetic modifications. Later cyberpunk also seems to have a noticeable lack of postmodernist nihilism though in it, which tends to put it at odds with it's parentage.

This tends to put in in the PostCyberpunk field, which includes"

1.Postcyberpunk tends to deal with characters who are more involved with society, and act to defend an existing social order or create a better society.
2.Protagonists of postcyberpunk are more often young urban professionals with more social status.
3.In cyberpunk, the alienating effect of new technology is emphasised, whereas in postcyberpunk, "technology is society".
4.Includes a sense of humor, as opposed to the frequently hardboiled nature of cyberpunk.

Be that as it may there are certain traits in both strains of Cyberpunk thought which are consistant as far as the Post/Cyberpunk hero is concerned

Rebellion against unjust authority: In Cyberpunk, the hero (typically low ranging street person or functionary) this can range from the classical cyberpunk antagonist, The MegaCorporation. Others include The Man (police, polticials, etc) to rival gangers, policlubs, terrorists, et all. This tends to be because of a rather nihilist bent to the character, even though they might say to themselves it's for the classical reasons. Film noir was big on this, and so was it's postmodernist child, Cyberpunk.
PostCyberpunk tends to incorporate the above elements, but with a rather mode optimistic outlook instead of the tilling-at-windmills feel of Cyberpunk.

Style Over Substance: Rather big in the Cyberpunk mindset , it didn't matter how well you did, it's how well you looked while you were doing it. Do things with a bit of Panache and flair, which is more important than doing things right.
Which ended up with a lot of dead cyberpunks heroes and left the smarter breed to flourish and evolve into the PostCyberpunk set which could be described as: Substance over Style, but if you can swing it, Style & Substance. Or put more simply: Think Smart, Live Long, Dry Gulch the Bastards Later.

The Street Finds it's uses for Technology: This translated usually into computers used for hacking into anything or cybernetics (usually low end questionable stuff) being implanted (voluntarily) into the Cyberpunk hero to give then edge against the antagonist (with questionable side effects). Given this was usually written by people who had little clue how the hardware worked, so used it as an alegory for the alienation they were trying to convey. PostCyberpunk tends to take a more realistic approach to high tech various forms of implants, namely it's just hardware/tools, subject to all the quirks that any form of hardware may be prone too, but nothing like the alienation of the previous era, with a notable exception of full body cyborgs having problems adjusting to society, being what they are.

Society Sucks: from the Wiki: "a closer look at [cyberpunk authors] reveals that they nearly always portray future societies in which governments have become wimpy and pathetic …Popular science fiction tales by Gibson, Williams, Cadigan and others do depict Orwellian accumulations of power in the next century, but nearly always clutched in the secretive hands of a wealthy or corporate elite." this is where both genres tend to crossover, with Cyberpunk being far more extreme in showing how society needs to burn down and start over, with PostCyberpunk being more moderate with only a few choice sections needing to be removed (usually the ones no one wants around or one that's going to be a problem for the players).

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: TheWanderingJewels on <09-17-14/2336:29>

The above being said, let's take a look at some of the more common archetypes:

The Killer: They go by the name Solo, Samurai, Mercenary, Security Specialist, etc. They might worked for a Corporation, government, or as an independent contractor, but the bottom line is that they are trained to kill. They might go about it in a callous manner, or they might regret killing. But they are masters of various forms of violence however certain personalities tend to predominate the Cyberpunk frame of mind vs Post Cyberpunk.

Cyberpunk: the archetype of the Nihilistic Killer, hopped on drugs or booze of some form, living on the edge waiting for that one bullet to take them out (run into the ground in Hollywood in far too many films), not caring what will happen to them or those around them, and generally wanting to be released from the pain of existence. Most sane people would avoid a twit like this in a heartbeat, but film noir environments seem to be littered with them.

The Professional: Killing is just a job to them. They don't see the opposition as necessarily human, but just as another target. They study the target, it's habits, it's environs, select their weapons with care, set up the hit, preform the job, cover their tracks, then go home and worry about the next job, or simply to sit back and listen to music or whatever people normally do. They tend to be not as common in Cyberpunk settings, with all the other killer types looking at them as a person to look up too, emulate, fear, or try to take down.
Example: Bato or Motoko from Ghost In The Shell

The Wannabe/Mook: You've seen this type before. A gang-banger with a big gun, may or may not be hopped on something, and will wave the gun around to show who's boss. The wannabe usually has enough sense to backdown when faced with much bigger and nastier people. Mooks are the throwaways you tend to see in stories that the hero guns down for being stupid.
Example: Any drugged up gun wielding idiot from most hollywood or hong kong action films (not to mention real life).

Post Cyberpunk: As above with a few notable differences:
The Professional: This by in large is the most common style of Killer you will see in the post cyberpunk setting. Nihilists tend to draw all sorts of bad attention to themselves and usually the heroes are involved in removing said damaged individual from larger society in lethal (or non-lethal) ways. Mooks tend to fill the same function as above.

Medias: The Media of the Cyberpunk/Post-Cyberpunk era would be a recognizable mutation of Gumshoe Reporters, Freelancers, Bloggers/Vloggers, and Mainstream Media. No one trusts News organizations anymore per se. Too many times getting caught pushing shoddy stories for one reason or another (and savaging each other in the data-stream) has done in that concept pretty much permanently..

That being said, people will look at an organization and see how many credible media types they have under their banner, rather than the banner itself. This generates revenue with multimedia access memberships and the equivalent of Paypal donations for media personalities and reporters of their choice. The most successful 'Media-Corps' have learned to just act as a cross between a Internet company (data eats LOTS of bandwidth) and a contracting agency for reporters, providing backing to those who seem to be successful (usually in pay or research staff) but otherwise keeping hands off and letting the reporter go after what story they want.

Cyberpunk:
Freelancers: The freelancer is the most common media type that one would see in the Cyberpunk setting, working the local scene to get his/her three hots and a cot, or following up on a potential break through story to get noticed by the Datastream, increase hits and maybe get a contract. Will push things to the edge to get a good story. Typically addicted to caffeine and smokes. Had probably pissed off at least half-dozen collections of people depending on his beat by intention or omission. But willing to play the game and play it hard to get at what's real. People demand the truth. No, not The Truth (people are immediately suspicious of anything shouted from the rooftops anymore). 'Just The Facts' is a watchword. And whatever it takes to get the story out, as long as it's accurate, they'll do it. C.J. O'Reilly from Cyberpunk 2020 is a example of this

Tabs: Short for Tabloid Reporter (Yes, they still exist and will continue to exist), this reporter works for one of the TabStream clearinghouses on the Grid. They come in the flavor of Reporter (some of the TabStreams figured out that having real reporters on the Site lended Cred), Stalkerazzi (Paparazzi with cybercams, oh joy), Creative Writers (Elvis Is Risen with General Hideki Tojo in Yokohama!! Film at Eleven!!), & Dirtbags (think every bad stereotype of a video reporter and you'll find this guy).

Post Cyberpunk: Pretty much like the above, but with more access to ways to snoop on unsuspecting targets....er 'subjects'. The ethics are probably not much changed other than you have to fight in a even more decentralized Media environment. And the Net is Forever in storing what you do. Pick your stories wisely. Do your research. Death of Credibility is a keystroke away. Spider Jerusulem is a archtype for this sort of media

The Fixer: We all know the Fixer. The Person who Finds Stuff You Want, be it drugs, information, weapons, it all boils down to Getting Access to what's wanted. For a Price.

Cyberpunk: many techno-thrillers have these guys, usually as the main bad guy for the Hero to take, down, usually by rolling through his assorted colorful mooks like a starving wolf through a pork sandwich. Usually kitted out in bling (or at least very well dressed), and thinking they own the world. Usually not given credit for having a brain, which is a pity, because in order to build a criminal empire, you usually have to have some common sense, and the ability to think on your feet when the heat comes down. Usually creating a new drug, controlling drugs, sniffing drugs, testing drugs, and going into high finance or technology for 'legit money'. Usually end up dead from Traitorous Lt or some hackneyed explanation.

Post Cyberpunk: more often than not these will be Data-Brokers of some type as dealing drugs is for the Lower Wad Street Scum types don'cha know? Typically they will have several decker types on the payroll to look up what they need and can pull up ALL of your embarrassing information in short order, have a decent psych profile of you, and have made contingency plans to deal with you if you chose not to play along. They typically try the soft hand first if they think it will work...but do not cross them. They can make your lives hell if they so chose.

Police: The Thin Blue Line does not need to be elaborated much upon, as it is the subject of many crime movie stories and oodles of ideas.

Corporates: The Bane of Most Cyberpunk players, the Corporations are the monolithic faceless personification of 'The Man' in Cyberpunk stories and the major antagonist in most stories. Brutal, unethical, and willing to do anything to gain wealth and power.

In Post-Cyberpunk settings, most corporations aren't quite as vicious, but they will go quite far to obtain what they want, but will try to keep it out of the spotlight (bad press and all that, unless they control the press). People don't like thuggish companies on general principle, so the Corps have to be more circumspect.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: firebug on <09-19-14/0047:14>

Holy damn, was that all done by yourself and only partly copied from Wikipedia where quoted? That's really impressive. I'm going to save that on my computer for future reference. I love analysis...es like this.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: TheWanderingJewels on <09-22-14/1317:58>

Pretty much. I've had some time to think on it

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: Reaver on <09-22-14/1626:38>

For what its worth: I am currently working a 41 and 7 rotation. (41 days straight, 7 days off) at 12 hours a day. HOWEVER, I have yet to work a full 41 days.... usually around days 25 to 30 I have to call in "sick" as I am just too tired to pull my ass out of the crappy camp bed and go to work that day...

In the construction industry, 10 to 12 hour days running 14 to 28 days in a row is the norm. Usually followed by 4 to 10 days off....

So while you CAN work excessive shifts, doing so for extended times can't be maintained for months on end....

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: AndyNakamura on <09-22-14/1655:39>

@TheWanderingJewels: Now I want to write a proper Noir Shadowrun mod.

Speaking of which, SR Returns was a pretty proper Noir story.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: firebug on <09-23-14/0259:27>

I assume you mean "Dead Man Switch" specifically? Yeah, it had a really good atmosphere for it. Honestly half the reason I bought that game was to have a more visual idea of the atmosphere of Shadowrun, and it really helped me imagine how the cities and people should look. Even if it is technically "outdated" by taking place over two decades before the current edition.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: gyrobot on <09-23-14/0348:13>

The major difference between Cyberpunk and post cyberpunk is how you go down the rabbit hole to see how far it goes. In cyberpunk, you are simply kicked into it, forced to look at the bottomless abyss. In post cyberpunk you went down with a rope, but the rope is slowly gnawing away and you are unaware of it.

Title: Re: The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"
Post by: TheWanderingJewels on <10-04-14/1623:55>

Shadowrun leans heavily on Film Noir Styling with some post-cyberpunk/Transhumanist tropes thrown in for good measure as far as tone as concerned. But a few things do stick out that should be mentioned

1. Our Corps are Always Bastards: Seriously, is there one corporation in Shadowrun that does not make The Umbrella Corporation from Resident Evil look like Amateurs in the Complete Bastard Department? In Cyberpunk 2013/2020 verse, Corps were just in it for the money. Granted they would break legs and kill for it, but they did not go in for Weyland-Yutani level of evil as a matter of course. Are their any megas which aren't complete bastards in SR?

2. Corps got Nukes: Okay, who in their right mind thought it would be a good idea for Megacorps to get tactical nuclear and thermo-nuclear technology? One, maintaining security for such tech is always expensive. Two, nation states are going to look at economic conglomerates that have no loyalty to them very dimly as they have access to wealth they'd love to tax. If it got out that they had nukes, it's not very hard to see them agitating for the corps to turn the nukes over to more 'responsible actors'. Particularly with all the sub tactical nukes that have gone off on SR earth.

3. Corporate armies can always outmatch national armies: Um.....no. Economically speaking, Corporations are very vulnerable organizations, sensitive to what products move, and which ones do not, thus always having to eat the costs of product that don't move. Nation states do not and can tax the crap out of people or just crank deficit spending when going on a military training spree. Corps might have higher tech for themselves, but national states have much deeper pockets for sheer amounts of materials to be purchased. And if one of the nation states get's pushed to the edge, they will go all out on the corp, which in spite of better gear, Does not have the numbers to make the difference. And if said corp lights off a nuke, that corp is probably going to be anathema very quickly. Delicate tension is probably more likely between extra-national corps and the Remaining nation states