Shadowrun
Catalyst Game Labs => Catalyst's Shadowrun Products => Topic started by: Killstring on <09-25-14/1129:09>
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Anybody pick it up? Thoughts?
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Shadow Spells coming so soon off the heels of Street Grimoire makes me a little confused.
Is Shadow Spells basically Street Grimoire Part 2?
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Seems to be... And as Keratin Control is in Shadow Spells, you kind of need it ;)
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It's one of the adorable little mini-.pdf's that I love so. No sarcasm, I really dug Bullets & Bandages, and the Gun Haven series.
Anyway, picked it up, digging through it now.
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Overall first impression is pretty good - working through the traditions section, and it's about on-par with the SG content. One thing stuck out to me, though: the Psionic tradition is a possession tradition? At first I thought "misprint," but even if that's the case, I'm actually really interested in that.
Basically, the psionicist "creates a Tulpa," and then takes on its aspect in a more idealized self? The thought of an agnostic possession tradition is interesting as hell to me, and wow can I find some plotlines in that; a practitioner of a possession tradition that doesn't believe in spirits is just begging for something to go horribly, horribly wrong. Even if their worldview is correct, and they're just tapping into the collective unconscious, there is some SERIOUSLY BAD STUFF IN THERE. ;D
Just had to share my WTF moment, and subsequent Evil GM Cackles.
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I guess I'm a little frustrated. I spent $50 for the long awaited magic supplement in print and now less than two months later (meaning the content was likely being worked on around the same time) there's another supplement that costs $6 for a mini PDF?
Was there a reason why these Ways and adept powers weren't included in the Grimoire?
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eBooks are a different development line, which do not involve the same writers and all that.
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Did they remember the drain code formulae this time, or is that going into the corrected version of Street Magic?
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Just picked it up, and haven't had a chance to look through it. As Mara suggested though, part of the reason for splitting up content between the core books and the e-books might be to help separate what is "official" for Missions play more easily. As in, you can totally play SR just fine without needing the e-books. As to Keratin Control, I was under the impression that the intent was to add it in with Street Grimoire as well, so it might end up in the errata as well as in Shadow Spells.
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The Nauseate spell might be a little too powerful for my tastes - anything that takes somebody out of combat for combat rounds equal to net hits should probably be a little more restrictive than F-2, no sustaining required - but I really like it all the same. But compared to Turn to Goo - which is sustained, F+1, it might be a bit too good.
Edit: nevermind, it's touch vs. LOS. The spell's just fine by me.
Adepts: Living focus is cool as hell, keratin control is here, and it's just what I wanted/figured/expected, supernatural toughness allows for some seriously tanky adepts, and I dig the powers in general.
The memory displacement adept power could use a clarification - what's the maximum on a predetermined amount of time? Since it basically erased the memory for that time, a limit on what is reasonable would be good. Capped at hours = magic rating? A year and a day? The remaining duration of the sixth world? For 0.25 power points, I'd assume it's closer to the first, but I dunno.
The cold-focused combat spells (chill and frigid) make me unreasonably happy, and getting emotion control in here is also very cool.
All told, I've got some nits to pick, but I'm overall quite happy with the e-book, and expect that it'll see more use than B&B or Assassin's primer in my games.
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Shadow Spells coming so soon off the heels of Street Grimoire makes me a little confused.
Is Shadow Spells basically Street Grimoire Part 2?
It's stuff cut out of Street Grimoire so they could sell it separately.
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Just picked it up, and haven't had a chance to look through it. As Mara suggested though, part of the reason for splitting up content between the core books and the e-books might be to help separate what is "official" for Missions play more easily. As in, you can totally play SR just fine without needing the e-books. As to Keratin Control, I was under the impression that the intent was to add it in with Street Grimoire as well, so it might end up in the errata as well as in Shadow Spells.
Though unlike the medic book, this one appears to be missions legal
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The adept powers are awful. Over costed, under powered, same as SG.
And yes, this should've all been in SG to start with. What a ripoff.
Shadow Spells coming so soon off the heels of Street Grimoire makes me a little confused.
Is Shadow Spells basically Street Grimoire Part 2?
It's stuff cut out of Street Grimoire so they could sell it separately.
Yuuuuuuup.
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Afternoon Folks,
I don't wade into the threads too often, but generally peer in after one of my ebooks release, so here it goes.
Killstring - Glad you overall enjoyed it
Tarnus - It was written separately from Street Grimoire as I am one of the authors who rarely sees work in the print product. Ironically, I did do some last minute writing for Street Grimoire, but that is again, a rarity.
Sir_P - Were the adept powers costs out of line with the main rulebook? I do aim for consistency.
As always, the errors are mine and the awesomeness are the fans and the people who pulled the product together behind the curtain.
Thanks,
Peter
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Shadow Spells coming so soon off the heels of Street Grimoire makes me a little confused.
Is Shadow Spells basically Street Grimoire Part 2?
It's stuff cut out of Street Grimoire so they could sell it separately.
Say what you'd like about the quality of the product, share your opinion about the material itself, etc, etc, all you want to. But please don't start this sort of rumor/misinformation. The e-book line and the core book line are, by and large, entirely separate from each other (which is often bemoaned by those who complain about miscommunication and miscues between the two lines). The e-books have their own line developer, in fact, and as I understand it, they own budget, pay rates, you name it. Individual writers will often work for both, over time, but the two branches are separate enough they have individual google groups and lines of communication, in fact. E-book writers often have an idea of what's coming down the pipeline elsewhere in Shadowrun, and may try to coordinate enough to go "Hey, there's a magic book hitting, let's do some magic stuff!" or something similar, but it's actually pretty rare for projects to share writers, except occasionally as folks proofing or contributing small snippets here and there.
So, no. It's not material "cut" from anywhere.
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@ Critias
Could You please explain why 4 Traditions that are in SR4A where omitted in the SR5 Street Grimoire only to be printed in the Shadow spells PDF ?
For Me as an outstanding Person this looks exactly like CGL has been withholding some of the Material just to make extra Cash with this PDF.
From what I've read from You I consider you as a sincere Person and Freelancer and If you say that the two branches ( E-Books and Standard Books) are working seperately I take your Word ! But from my Point of View this looks extremely either like Money grubbing or extreme lack of communicating between those two departments and more than just a coincidence that exactly those 4 Traditions that are missing in Street Grimoire now apppear in Shadow Spells....
with a wary Dance
Medicineman
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By the looks of it (I could be wrong, I don't have the book) aren't the traditions in Shadow Spells the ones that were in Digital Grimoire? It'd make sense then for those ones to be updated separately.
Not to sound rude, but your complaint would be like complaining the SR5 core book didn't include literally everything from 4th edition already.
Quick question though, does it contain more rituals that don't require initiation to use? I was building a magician recently and was a bit bummed when I realized almost every (90% at least) ritual added in SG needs a specific metamagic or initiation into an Art. Which isn't a big deal, but it meant I couldn't start with more than 1 or 2 rituals I could make good use of.
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By the looks of it (I could be wrong, I don't have the book) aren't the traditions in Shadow Spells the ones that were in Digital Grimoire? It'd make sense then for those ones to be updated separately.
Norse was in Street Magic. I'll compare traditions to SR4 (some things changed) and SG when I get SS.
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By the looks of it (I could be wrong, I don't have the book) aren't the traditions in Shadow Spells the ones that were in Digital Grimoire? It'd make sense then for those ones to be updated separately.
Norse was in Street Magic. I'll compare traditions to SR4 (some things changed) and SG when I get SS.
Dito Aboriginal tradition.
On everything else, I'm with Medicineman.
Edit: Disregard the last edit, apparently the Errata fixes that one.
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Shadow Spells coming so soon off the heels of Street Grimoire makes me a little confused.
Is Shadow Spells basically Street Grimoire Part 2?
It's stuff cut out of Street Grimoire so they could sell it separately.
Say what you'd like about the quality of the product, share your opinion about the material itself, etc, etc, all you want to. But please don't start this sort of rumor/misinformation. The e-book line and the core book line are, by and large, entirely separate from each other (which is often bemoaned by those who complain about miscommunication and miscues between the two lines). The e-books have their own line developer, in fact, and as I understand it, they own budget, pay rates, you name it. Individual writers will often work for both, over time, but the two branches are separate enough they have individual google groups and lines of communication, in fact. E-book writers often have an idea of what's coming down the pipeline elsewhere in Shadowrun, and may try to coordinate enough to go "Hey, there's a magic book hitting, let's do some magic stuff!" or something similar, but it's actually pretty rare for projects to share writers, except occasionally as folks proofing or contributing small snippets here and there.
So, no. It's not material "cut" from anywhere.
What Medicineman and Michael Chandra said. A number of things-- Traditions, spells, powers, that were in the 4th Street Magic were not in 5th ed Street Grimoire, only to wind up in this new Shadow Spells things.
That's pretty clearly cutting things from SG to have them be in Shadow Spells. It's pretty much the same thing as day 1 DLC. It doesn't matter than the two books were written separately, I'm sure it was a decision that was made above your pay grade. But it's still pretty clearly what happened.
I also believe Digital Grimoire was several years later, and at the end of the edition cycle, relatively speaking. That's very different than releasing it a couple months later, with material that clearly should belonged and would have fit in the main splatbook.
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I also believe Digital Grimoire was several years later, and at the end of the edition cycle, relatively speaking. That's very different than releasing it a couple months later, with material that clearly should belonged and would have fit in the main splatbook.
Not exactly.
Street Magic, 2006.
Digital Grimoire, 2008.
DG was published a couple months after Unwired (2008), which is not really "the end of the edition cycle."
BTW, Street Grimoire is 40 pages longer than Street Magic.
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....., I did do some last minute writing for Street Grimoire, but that is again, a rarity......
.....Sir_P - Were the adept powers costs out of line with the main rulebook? I do aim for consistency.
They are very far out of line with the main rulebook. They are much more in line with the Street Grimoire powers, which are also very much overcosted and underpowered, and I am very regretful didn't see any attention in today's errata. If that was part of SG that you worked on, I would very much like to discuss it with you.
Just as an example (though ironically, this is a comparison with SG powers) : You can, for .25 pts completely rearrange your face (additional levels just grant additional dice, you get the base ability with just 1). This takes 1 minute or so, and is something that would be pretty difficult to do with prosthetic makeup and would certainly take longer. Conversely, you change your skin color, something that would just take a jar of makeup, for .5 PP. Or, even further conversely, you could grow your freaking hair out for .5 pp, over a number of hours. Hell, you could go and get extensions at the salon in like 30-45 minutes. Or buy a wig.
Enthralling Performance is a pretty good power. The rest of them are either uninteresting, not terribly useful, or way too expensive.
I also believe Digital Grimoire was several years later, and at the end of the edition cycle, relatively speaking. That's very different than releasing it a couple months later, with material that clearly should belonged and would have fit in the main splatbook.
Not exactly.
Street Magic, 2006.
Digital Grimoire, 2008.
DG was published a couple months after Unwired (2008), which is not really "the end of the edition cycle."
BTW, Street Grimoire is 40 pages longer than Street Magic.
OK, it is still a couple years later, not a couple months, and that makes a big difference. And more importantly, they pretty clearly left stuff out of SG just to sell it to us in Shadow Spells.
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And more importantly, they pretty clearly left stuff out of SG just to sell it to us in Shadow Spells.
Critias has already explained this - so unless you are calling him a liar, my sincere advice to you is drop this line of rumormongering.
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And more importantly, they pretty clearly left stuff out of SG just to sell it to us in Shadow Spells.
Critias has already explained this - so unless you are calling him a liar, my sincere advice to you is drop this line of rumormongering.
Ah. SInce you felt obliged to say, "shut up, the NSA already told you they aren't spying on you" in two separate threads, I'll post the same response here:
I READ WHAT HE SAID. I flat out do not to believe it. Which is not to say I think Critias is lying, I just don't think it was a decision he was party to. It can be two separate writing teams and all that, that doesn't stop content from being withheld from SG just to appear in SS.
It's really, really clear this is Day One DLC. Several things that were in Street Magic (not digital grimoire) were not in Street Grimoire, only to appear in this thing a couple months later.
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There's that overreaction I mentioned ;D
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OK, it is still a couple years later, not a couple months, and that makes a big difference. And more importantly, they pretty clearly left stuff out of SG just to sell it to us in Shadow Spells.
that's kinda like saying they left stuff out of run&gun just to sell us gun heaven 3 a couple months earlier...
honestly i don't get what you want outside of everything to be exactly how it was before, street grimoire for all it's faults is huge and includes a lot of new stuff in it. it is a different book from street magic. are they under obligation to correct the faults in the book? YES. is it unreasonable of them to release a light magic rules pdf, including some of the old stuff that didn't make the cut for SG for the benefit of the old players who might miss it? NO around the same couple months so as to complement the other release... um also not unreasonable
i just don't understand where the sense of entitlement comes from where you expect everything to be exactly the same
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OK, it is still a couple years later, not a couple months, and that makes a big difference. And more importantly, they pretty clearly left stuff out of SG just to sell it to us in Shadow Spells.
that's kinda like saying they left stuff out of run&gun just to sell us gun heaven 3 a couple months earlier...
I don't see how that's anything alike at all, actually.
honestly i don't get what you want outside of everything to be exactly how it was before, street grimoire for all it's faults is huge and includes a lot of new stuff in it. it is a different book from street magic. are they under obligation to correct the faults in the book? YES. is it unreasonable of them to release a light magic rules pdf, including some of the old stuff that didn't make the cut for SG for the benefit of the old players who might miss it? NO around the same couple months so as to complement the other release... um also not unreasonable
i just don't understand where the sense of entitlement comes from where you expect everything to be exactly the same
If you don't understand, I will point you to the 1,000's of articles and blogs about day one DLC.
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Being a PDF e-book though, this would not be Missions legal correct?
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Just about every other e-book is Missions legal (Bullets & Bandages being the exception), so I'd anticipate this one being legal as well.
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Lot of people that want to play Norse mages, for instance......and they al thought leaving it out of SG, when it had been in Street Magic, was mighty weird.
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I don't believe it is an options book, so we should be good.
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@ Critias
Could You please explain why 4 Traditions that are in SR4A where omitted in the SR5 Street Grimoire only to be printed in the Shadow spells PDF ?
For Me as an outstanding Person this looks exactly like CGL has been withholding some of the Material just to make extra Cash with this PDF.
From what I've read from You I consider you as a sincere Person and Freelancer and If you say that the two branches ( E-Books and Standard Books) are working seperately I take your Word ! But from my Point of View this looks extremely either like Money grubbing or extreme lack of communicating between those two departments and more than just a coincidence that exactly those 4 Traditions that are missing in Street Grimoire now apppear in Shadow Spells....
with a wary Dance
Medicineman
You guys remember how Commanding Voice showed up in both Stolen Souls and Street Grimoire? That's an example of how the various mini-branches of the game company don't always coordinate very well. It is, in part, evidence of the lack of communication between groups working on different projects. One could also point to, for instance, the general chaos of the last few years. There's thread after thread of problems that have erupted due to a lack of communication, coordination, and cohesion within the game line. It is, in fact, a little ironic to me, here, that I'm now having to point out this sort of thing to some of you.
We've had thread after thread about Jackpointers posting after their death, powers being replicated in more than one book, pieces of gear that immediately make other gear obsolete, and dozens -- maybe hundreds -- of similar SNAFUs due to a lack of communication within the company...and yet here we are, suddenly, with folks insisting I prove that there's a lack of communication within the company. I hope the cometragedy of that isn't lost on everyone but me.
What may have happened, believe it or not, was the e-book line developer trying to improve on all that, and coordinating with the main line developer, basically saying "Hey, has anyone called dibs on _____ yet? Have you got the word count for it in your book? No? Okay, I'll add it to mine." Peter got in a little work on Grimoire, as I understand it, and that would've given him the opportunity to keep an eye on that book's progress, see what material was going into it and what wasn't, and then to try and squeeze what he could into his e-book. This would be a sign of improved communication, one of those changes Jason promised a few months ago, arguably when these errors and inconsistencies were at their worst, amidst the chaos of convention season.
Print books have limits on space that e-books flatly don't, and the e-book line -- in general! -- exists specifically to pick up that slack (it's how Way of the Adept got written, not to mention Land of Promise; they're cheaper to produce, we get paid less to write them, they don't have printing costs, artwork's often recycled and as such free, etc, etc). Something not making it into a print book is not the same thing as something being cut from that print product; Jason's not in the habit of green-lighting folks to write stuff, and then not using it.
You're free to disbelieve me if you want. My name's not in the credits of either book, I didn't have anything to do with 'em, directly (and I think the costs of Adept Ways kind of show you I wasn't writing them). I'm just telling you how the line has worked, traditionally (hardly anyone took a look at my e-books before they were published, unless you count me coordinating with myself between Land of Promise and Elven Blood, a Missions product).
You're free to think there's a well-coordinated conspiracy going on in CGL, where our editor's got the time to go through and snip stuff out of one book to include it in another, where we've got multiple design teams working together so smoothly that we're seamlessly cutting material from one book and creating another, whole-cloth, in order to get extra money from you (all just a few weeks after us tripping on our dicks and putting one power, in two very different forms, into two completely unrelated books).
Think what you want to think. Just make it clear you're only sharing your personal opinion when you do so. I'm just doing what I can to clear things up, and ask you to at least state it's your opinion, not describing it matter-of-factly, when you have no evidence of such wrongdoing (and when, in fact, writers and line developers are trying to be open with you about the design process).
Being a PDF e-book though, this would not be Missions legal correct?
Unless something has changed, it's specifically the "Options" line of e-books that are, well, optional (and as such not Missions-legal). Not every e-book.
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Thanks for the patient and complete response Critias.
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You guys remember how Commanding Voice showed up in both Stolen Souls and Street Grimoire? That's an example of how the various mini-branches of the game company don't always coordinate very well. It is, in part, evidence of the lack of communication between groups working on different projects. One could also point to, for instance, the general chaos of the last few years. There's thread after thread of problems that have erupted due to a lack of communication, coordination, and cohesion within the game line. It is, in fact, a little ironic to me, here, that I'm now having to point out this sort of thing to some of you.
We've had thread after thread about Jackpointers posting after their death, powers being replicated in more than one book, pieces of gear that immediately make other gear obsolete, and dozens -- maybe hundreds -- of similar SNAFUs due to a lack of communication within the company...and yet here we are, suddenly, with folks insisting I prove that there's a lack of communication within the company. I hope the cometragedy of that isn't lost on everyone but me.
What may have happened, believe it or not, was the e-book line developer trying to improve on all that, and coordinating with the main line developer, basically saying "Hey, has anyone called dibs on _____ yet? Have you got the word count for it in your book? No? Okay, I'll add it to mine." Peter got in a little work on Grimoire, as I understand it, and that would've given him the opportunity to keep an eye on that book's progress, see what material was going into it and what wasn't, and then to try and squeeze what he could into his e-book. This would be a sign of improved communication, one of those changes Jason promised a few months ago, arguably when these errors and inconsistencies were at their worst, amidst the chaos of convention season.
Print books have limits on space that e-books flatly don't, and the e-book line -- in general! -- exists specifically to pick up that slack (it's how Way of the Adept got written, not to mention Land of Promise; they're cheaper to produce, we get paid less to write them, they don't have printing costs, artwork's often recycled and as such free, etc, etc). Something not making it into a print book is not the same thing as something being cut from that print product; Jason's not in the habit of green-lighting folks to write stuff, and then not using it.
You're free to disbelieve me if you want. My name's not in the credits of either book, I didn't have anything to do with 'em, directly (and I think the costs of Adept Ways kind of show you I wasn't writing them). I'm just telling you how the line has worked, traditionally (hardly anyone took a look at my e-books before they were published, unless you count me coordinating with myself between Land of Promise and Elven Blood, a Missions product).
You're free to think there's a well-coordinated conspiracy going on in CGL, where our editor's got the time to go through and snip stuff out of one book to include it in another, where we've got multiple design teams working together so smoothly that we're seamlessly cutting material from one book and creating another, whole-cloth, in order to get extra money from you (all just a few weeks after us tripping on our dicks and putting one power, in two very different forms, into two completely unrelated books).
Think what you want to think. Just make it clear you're only sharing your personal opinion when you do so. I'm just doing what I can to clear things up, and ask you to at least state it's your opinion, not describing it matter-of-factly, when you have no evidence of such wrongdoing (and when, in fact, writers and line developers are trying to be open with you about the design process).
I too would like to say thank you for the in-depth answer. Knowing someone like you is working with Catalyst (as well as a friend of mine who does illustration), actually alleviates some of my concerns, given the forthright-ness you've had with us.
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Thanks Critias. It's a real shame that there are people who seem to want to find the worst in every situation no matter what, ignoring all the evidence to the contrary. I suppose that's just the nature of the internet though.
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that's kinda like saying they left stuff out of run&gun just to sell us gun heaven 3 a couple months earlier...
It is.
some of the Waepons Mods (like Personalized Grip) which where in the SR4A Arsenal and which belong into Run & Gun aren't printed there but in other PDFs so If a Group wants to have all Weapons Mods it NEEDS to buy other unrelated PDFs also.
Think what you want to think. Just make it clear you're only sharing your personal opinion when you do so. I'm just doing what I can to clear things up,
I Do , but I also like to know your Point of View before I make up my Mind (See also my Signature ;) )
And I surely trust You and take Your words for honest
With a disappointed Dance
Medicineman
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Well, quite a thread... ???
Quite looking forward to picking this up...love how the release always comes just as I'm starting a long international...now need to wait another 10+ hours till next leg is done...sigh :)
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If you don't understand, I will point you to the 1,000's of articles and blogs about day one DLC.
Disclosure: I used to be a musician for my job. As such, I tend to see things from a point of view that benefits content creators.
A lot of those articles and blogs are simply not correct. Oftentimes, when you're working on a project, things get cut. Magazine, music album, video game, rpg or whatever else - constraints, whether budgetary, spacial or whatnot, they occur. And, you know, it'd be good to get that content somehow. To finish it up, and put it in the hands of consumers. So, y'know, maybe we make a b-side. Maybe we put some programmers back on this cut sequence, and we'll do some DLC. Maybe we kick this to the pdf-only crew, and see if they want to run with it.
And yeah, I get it: Electronic Arts exists! They price-gouge, it sucks. But the overwhelming majority of DLC that I've seen in video games has come from a project team operating outside of the core game's budget. Maybe it was cut, maybe never greenlit, but if it represents potential additional revenue, then you can get it made. So yeah, you could not have this content, and you don't have to buy it! But vilifying people for making extra content ignores the process by which said content comes to be in the first place.
Having. Said. That.
As a consumer, it's more of a utility issue - do I feel that I received good value for resources expended? I can't say for SG, as my gm bought it. But I acquired pdf's of the core book and Shadow Spells for $20 and $7 bucks respectively, and I feel like I got a lot of utility for that price point. Not everybody does! That's totally cool, and makes for a healthy hobby.
I feel that I got my seven buck's worth. Others may find that their mileage varies. But I'm pretty happy.
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A lot of those articles and blogs are simply not correct. Oftentimes, when you're working on a project, things get cut. Magazine, music album, video game, rpg or whatever else - constraints, whether budgetary, spacial or whatnot, they occur. And, you know, it'd be good to get that content somehow. To finish it up, and put it in the hands of consumers. So, y'know, maybe we make a b-side. Maybe we put some programmers back on this cut sequence, and we'll do some DLC. Maybe we kick this to the pdf-only crew, and see if they want to run with it.
Having come from the video game industry, I agree with this sentiment. Day one DLC might feel like it's some sort of marketing ploy (and in some cases, it will be) but more often than not it's simply content that the developer wanted to have in the game, but couldn't guarantee. Usually this means the DLC team works on it, which is separate from the primary team. Hmm... kind of like how there's a team that works on the e-books and a team that works on the core books. Wow, funny how that correlates. $7 isn't worth griping about this much - paranoia is a powerful emotion though.
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You know, Limited spells were in SR4a (the mechanic that require Fetishes, that give you +2 Drain Dice) but they aren't in SR5 core..
Great Dragon stat mods were in SR4a (and SR4, and SR3), but they weren't in SR5...
Both of those, had me scratching my head, but I'll wait for it.. and if I need it before it's released, I'll go by past models, or tweak my own numbers.
Yeah, there are going to be little oddities, things that were in earlier products but aren't here. I cannot believe anyone actually takes this conspiracy stuff to heart.. then again, I've been following the forums, so I guess I can.
I will try to pick this e-book up sometime in the near future, and look forward to checking it out!
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I'm of the camp that doesn't believe that Catalyst was out to screw any of its customers by consciously cutting material out of Street Grimoire to sell separately. While Street Grimoire has obvious problems in the editing department, it was still a thick supplement with a ton of background information for GMs to use. And while there's objectively less mechanical, crunchy material than the 4th edition, it's still a significant piece of work and filled with RP hooks. I have a number of people at my table who really like the supplement. It just happens to have unfortunate balance issues and inconsistencies with previous publications in the current edition. And now that the errata for Street Grimoire is out, the missing adept powers of Keratin Control and Living Focus have been included in Street Grimoire. Slowly but surely there is some resolution to the problems in the major sourcebooks, even though it would have been better had the issues not existed at all.
As for Shadow Spells, I found it a good read and a decent standalone product. It would be nice if it had made it into Street Grimoire considering it's only been a few months since that came out, but it has its own flavour and I hesitate to call it a bunch of cut-off remnants of a bigger book. Unfortunately the drain code/adept power cost problem is still there, though it isn't quite as bad. There's a reagant cost table floating around at the end of the book but nothing else related to it, especially since it's placed in with the adept stuff. But I did really like the potential plot seeds in the Magical Societies and Threats sections. Some people will hate that fluff and art is dominating the page count and you get less product for more money and that is totally fine to hold as an opinion, considering these are rulebooks first and foremost and not novels. But some people do enjoy the setting material more than the mechanics, due to the way the RPG market is changing towards lighter rules and more storytelling. Including the fluff in the crunch books alleviates some of the niche factor that a story-centric book has. I could personally go either way with these books; I do like crunch, but I also use a ton of fluff books to flavour my between-game fiction.
I do have to apply one criticism to all the books and supplements that have been coming out. Where are the indexes? Shadow Spells might only be 24 pages but an index would really be nice anyway. And for the bigger, 200+ page supplements, it's a pain not to have them.
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*snip*
Well, thanks for the reply. I guess I should be happy that it isn't malice but atrociously bad organization? Well, that's something I guess.
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I do have to apply one criticism to all the books and supplements that have been coming out. Where are the indexes? Shadow Spells might only be 24 pages but an index would really be nice anyway. And for the bigger, 200+ page supplements, it's a pain not to have them.
You know, that actually sounds like it'd be a great idea. Remember the index from SR4a? Something like that on the website, or as downloadable pdf, would be awesome.
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I do have to apply one criticism to all the books and supplements that have been coming out. Where are the indexes? Shadow Spells might only be 24 pages but an index would really be nice anyway. And for the bigger, 200+ page supplements, it's a pain not to have them.
You know, that actually sounds like it'd be a great idea. Remember the index from SR4a? Something like that on the website, or as downloadable pdf, would be awesome.
Sounds like something someone could put together on the forum, actually. Not to imply I'm volunteering for it, but I could probably assist...
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I do have to apply one criticism to all the books and supplements that have been coming out. Where are the indexes? Shadow Spells might only be 24 pages but an index would really be nice anyway. And for the bigger, 200+ page supplements, it's a pain not to have them.
You know, that actually sounds like it'd be a great idea. Remember the index from SR4a? Something like that on the website, or as downloadable pdf, would be awesome.
Sounds like something someone could put together on the forum, actually. Not to imply I'm volunteering for it, but I could probably assist...
Agreed - that would be a great thing to have.
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Being a PDF e-book though, this would not be Missions legal correct?
Unless Bull comes down with some drastic change this will be missions legal October 25th 2014
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I do have to apply one criticism to all the books and supplements that have been coming out. Where are the indexes? Shadow Spells might only be 24 pages but an index would really be nice anyway. And for the bigger, 200+ page supplements, it's a pain not to have them.
You know, that actually sounds like it'd be a great idea. Remember the index from SR4a? Something like that on the website, or as downloadable pdf, would be awesome.
Sounds like something someone could put together on the forum, actually. Not to imply I'm volunteering for it, but I could probably assist...
Agreed - that would be a great thing to have.
There is a redditor who is trying to make a SR5 super book. He's looking for help if anyone gots the time. Its just a "quick" guide to all the complex SR5 tests
http://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/28b4q3/the_shadowrun_5_superbook/
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It still disappoints me how people fail to grasp the basic difference between ebook production and print book production.
Print Book content has to be finalized far in advance for proofing, relay of proofing, and finalizing between the creator and the actual facility creating the product. The creation of the printed product, with non-recycled art is more complex, and is going to take longer time. Page Count matters. Some things just can't be included, because sometimes one more half page of material really means you have to add a lot more pages, and a cost increase beyond your desired cost point. Then there is the time for production, shipping, preparation for distribution, distribution, then actual arrival of a product. That is a very significant amount of time. There is a significant difference in time for finalization of ebook product and printed product--so to call it 'Day One DLC'--well, its uncalled for, and ridiculous when you factor in the real differences in speed of ebook to electronic distribution versus the speed of printed book in your store, and the necessary decision to split things between teams due to content limitations for the print product..
Adding some elaborate conspiracy theory to this is just the icing on the cake of annoyance.
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The DLC feeling comes from the timing (which is mostly unfortunate) and the fact, that Shadow Spells includes things you need for SG. If SG would work on its own with SP being a nice addition, the feel woul be a real "expansion", not a DLC.
It's like selling unfinished games and finishing them up with DLCs, which you have to pay for again. It's not about the money aspect, or the fact that there is even additional content. It's about the fact of the customer feeling he is getting an unfinished product at the price of a finished product and afterwards having to pay for the finished product without it being in the state, that he wanted it to be.
PDFs are ok, if you have the infrastructure for them. But for SR I personally would prefer having ~5 books at the table and everything except the most exotic stuff in there. As it looks right now, I'll be needing 10+ Books + 20 PDFs and 12 Errata to run a game ruleswise. And that just sucks. The fewer books you need ruleswise, the better. I think this aspect fuels into it as well. Getting every book "extended" by 20 pages in some DLC makes you want those 20 pages in the book itself, so you have them, where you need them.
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It's stuff cut out of Street Grimoire so they could sell it separately.
Now I'm not a fan of the "reference X Item in A-Book but X Item description is in B-Book", that has been seen a few times now, but, I am not sure I'd call Shadow Spells a blatant bid to sell it separately.
Print Products have a Page Count limit.
If they stuffed Shadowspells material into SG & extended the Page # then you'd end up paying $10-15 more for SG instead of having a $7 PDF to get on the side.
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@Tarislar:
And I would go for 15$ more. It's a difference of 8$ total, but I would not have to have the pdf as sperate reference and instead have everything in one book and place. To me, that's much better in any way.
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Given how scattered content is in these books to begin with, I reckon having two books doesn't make much difference.
:D
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It sounds like it's mostly crunch too without any fluff. In the vein of Magical Societies or whatever that one 4th edition PDF was called.
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I personally wouldn't call several magical societies, a new magical threat and a group of Talismonger-killers without any fluff myself. Granted, if I recall correctly the societies are rather much British, but it's still quite usable for extra flavour.
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@Tarislar:
And I would go for 15$ more. It's a difference of 8$ total, but I would not have to have the pdf as sperate reference and instead have everything in one book and place. To me, that's much better in any way.
To you, To others, maybe not.
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I like the new direct spells. The specific HMHVV spells seem out of place to me. Shadowrun never seemed like they'd have such... I dunno. None of the spells feel like they were made by someone for a single purpose. They feel more "general purpose".
But I suppose players can make spells too, it just doesn't come up a lot.
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I like the new direct spells. The specific HMHVV spells seem out of place to me. Shadowrun never seemed like they'd have such... I dunno. None of the spells feel like they were made by someone for a single purpose. They feel more "general purpose".
But I suppose players can make spells too, it just doesn't come up a lot.
Not even Slay (Thing) or things along those lines?
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I got half a dozen spells to add to the SWAT team design, and half a dozen spells ready for use by enemies. ^_^
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I like the new direct spells. The specific HMHVV spells seem out of place to me. Shadowrun never seemed like they'd have such... I dunno. None of the spells feel like they were made by someone for a single purpose. They feel more "general purpose".
But I suppose players can make spells too, it just doesn't come up a lot.
Not even Slay (Thing) or things along those lines?
Those are different, since they're presented with a variable. The Slay spell exists, but it has a version for each different target.
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I like the new direct spells. The specific HMHVV spells seem out of place to me. Shadowrun never seemed like they'd have such... I dunno. None of the spells feel like they were made by someone for a single purpose. They feel more "general purpose".
But I suppose players can make spells too, it just doesn't come up a lot.
Not even Slay (Thing) or things along those lines?
Those are different, since they're presented with a variable. The Slay spell exists, but it has a version for each different target.
Good point. Niche spells are a bit less common, though I vaguely remember a couple others elsewhere.
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And I would go for 15$ more. It's a difference of 8$ total, but I would not have to have the pdf as sperate reference and instead have everything in one book and place. To me, that's much better in any way.
To you, To others, maybe not.
Okay, let me put it another way.
IIRC Page count limits are set early.
So when it came down to having to cut things that were not going to fit.....what would you have given up from SG to fit in the other stuff?
And why does everything from 1 edition HAVE to be in the exact same order in a different edition?
Me, I was thrilled that Initiation is now in the Core Book compared to SR1-3 where it was in the first Magic Book.
While I didn't play in 4th its my understanding that "Ways" were a much later option, but we get 1/2 dozen of them in Grimoire now, so something had to give. Something wasn't going to get included.
At a certain point you get a batch of "Options" in a book to get people started & then you get more as follow up books come on line.
I wanted more Mentor Spirits in the Core Rules myself & I'm still waiting to see a bigger selection appear. The 5? We've gotten so far have been okay but I'd like a lot more.
I mean, not everyone wants every single option loaded into a single book, if that was the case we'd just have SR5E Encyclopedia, its 1500 pages long & costs $300 but its the only book you'll ever need. Some people would love it I'm sure, but I'm betting some wouldn't.
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I mean, not everyone wants every single option loaded into a single book, if that was the case we'd just have SR5E Encyclopedia, its 1500 pages long & costs $300 but its the only book you'll ever need. Some people would love it I'm sure, but I'm betting some wouldn't.
Too right on everything you said. On the topic of the encyclopedia, I think that'd be awesome to have but can you imagine the number of hours that have to go into including every single thing? And then what of the fluff? It would be a hell of an undertaking for sure - probably the same amount of work as putting out the whole system. :) Still, if we could get a crunch book for the edition, it would be pretty sweet. And maybe an Almanac for the location-based material would be possible too? Man, just bringing up this idea has put some weird ideas into my head.
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On it's own I think Shadow Spells is a pretty decent supplement. It collected and transfered quite a lot of the adept powers which were scattered about the various 4th edition sourcebooks, added a few traditions, spells, societies & threats.
My concern is, that we now have had our magic supplement, we're not going to get another one which acutally adresses some of the shortcomming of the SG. At least not anytime soon.
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I got half a dozen spells to add to the SWAT team design, and half a dozen spells ready for use by enemies. ^_^
Well I'm going to buy a Shielding focus next.
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Well if you think y'all are going to get in enough trouble to get SWAT sent after y-...
*looks at ZeConster*
*looks at the Hackers*
Yeah, you'll want a Shielding Focus.