Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: RickySpanish on <10-01-14/1856:52>
-
Looking over mystic adepts in my main book it says at character creation its 2 karma per power point, but people are saying its 5 karma in the character creation forum. is this some errata that I am missing?
-
Yup.The PDF has been updated to 5. You can probably find a link to the SR5 Core errata in the Errata Forum.
-
Thank you
-
Personally, I don't like how the errata forces a mystic adept who wants full power-points at CC (which they can't buy later) to take negative qualities for it. When I run things, I make each point at CC cost as much as its level; 1 for 1, 3 for 2, 6 for 3, etc. Scales up to 21 experience for 6 power points points. It scales well, shows how focused the character was on maintaining/building their adept powers, etc. while remaining within the 25 karma limit.
-
Before Street Grimoire was released I was absolutely fine with 5 karma per power point. Once SG came out, and introduced ways and everything I started to hate the 30 point cost. I mean, you cannot get a Way if you want to focus on the Power Point side; and you can't really get that much Focused Concentration for the spellcasting side. Factor in that usually Resources is your E priority and you need to spend 10 karma there, you run out of karma to do anything really quickly. I would honestly prefer 3 or 4 per point. That way you can get all 6 for 18 or 24 respectively, which still leaves some room for customization and expansion.
-
Given how powerful the mystic adepts I've so far seen in action have been I don't have a problem with the current cost.
-
Given how powerful the mystic adepts I've so far seen in action have been I don't have a problem with the current cost.
Same here. I have a MA at my table who is broke as heck. The other players affectionately refer to him as Acid Wave McMurder Hobo. He always goes first, kills everything in one spell, then takes no drain. He's curious why there are always elementals that engulf him all the time now...
-
Honestly I'm not worried about the cost i can take the negative qualities and buy them out later, but i just wanted to be sure it was correct or not.
-
I was looking at making a mystic body guard who had a spirit guide, most likely dog but i have several variations in mind.
-
Given how powerful the mystic adepts I've so far seen in action have been I don't have a problem with the current cost.
You only need 3.5 Power Points as a Mystic Adept. Just sayin'.
-
Given how powerful the mystic adepts I've so far seen in action have been I don't have a problem with the current cost.
Same here. I have a MA at my table who is broke as heck. The other players affectionately refer to him as Acid Wave McMurder Hobo. He always goes first, kills everything in one spell, then takes no drain. He's curious why there are always elementals that engulf him all the time now...
Though that problem seems to be more on the player's side ... If you go in for the kill it might net you some notoriety here and there, especially if it involves something that nasty like acid.
-
I made a MA as my latest character, and was mulling things over before I decide (magician or MA). At 2 it'd be a no-brainer, as it is it was an interesting choice. So the price seems about right to me at 5.
-
To put the errata into context: It's not a fix afterwards to balance out the rules, it's a fix afterwards to clean up a printing mistake. During playtesting many variants were used, and here and there in the rules they didn't properly clean out some of the variants. Take Lifestyle/Gear costs for Dwarves & Trolls, Connection as dicepool modifier or limit modifier, and so on. The karma cost for Power Points is the same, it was never intended to go to print but they missed cleaning it out.
My memory may be failing me, but I vaguely recall that this was a day-zero errata so to speak. Developers acknowledged it was a mistake and quickly provided the correct value even before the PDF was released. This was in part possible because the incorrect value was noted in one of the SR5 Previews, and in part because of the time between being sent to the printer and coming out in PDF form. So basically very since SR5 was actually out, it's been known to many that it should be 5. But since the errata took a while, only the Mission Hotpatch Errata noted it for people to find.
-
That context does point out a frequent problem with shadowrun products which is poor proof reading. Things like grammatical mistakes and missing words have been common throughout every edition. Some books are much worse than others, and generally the core book is the best, but some of the supplements have been, from an englishj major's perspective, downright bad.
-
The other players affectionately refer to him as Acid Wave McMurder Hobo.
This may be my favorite line I've seen on these boards ever!
On a side note, I would LOVE to see his build. Think you can get a copy and send it my way? Sounds like the villain i've been building for my runners to square off against!
-
That context does point out a frequent problem with shadowrun products which is poor proof reading. Things like grammatical mistakes and missing words have been common throughout every edition. Some books are much worse than others, and generally the core book is the best, but some of the supplements have been, from an englishj major's perspective, downright bad.
The proof reading isn't that bad, the main problem is the rush. And honestly, Core seems from my perspective to be the WORST, maybe not word-wise but definitely mistake-wise.
-
I have ZERO issues w/ the 5K / PP Cost for MA's.
My only big issue with them is the major choice required at CG & the inability to grow to Max Magic in PP's if you don't take them all up front.
If you had the option to buy PP's the same way you can buy Spells post Char Gen, I think the MA would be fine.
Another option would be if you could exchange spells for PP's and start out w/ less than an equal priority Full Mage as an option.
Its an artificial limit on Positive Qualities that no other class really has at CharGen.
-
A limit on Positive Qualities; how so?
Like Martial Arts (which, if you want to take a style and all techniques) cost a maximum of 27 karma; how is this any different from taking up to 30 karma worth of Power Points?
Both reduce the amount of Karma you have for other things (like skills, attributes, and yes, positive qualities), but that's the cost of doing business as I see it. Mystic Adepts have the best of both Awakened worlds (i.e. they can have both power points and spells), something no other archetype in the game is capable of; that they have to sacrifice something for that ability is not only fair, but balanced, in my opinion.
-
Sacrificing the ability to purchase their max amount of power points without requiring negative Qualities (and being unable to boost it afterwards, sans initiation) isn't a sacrifice; it's a bit unfair. Comparing it to Martial Arts isn't all that accurate, since you can buy Martial Arts after chargen.
A good example of the 'sacrifice' of being a Mystic Adept is losing the ability to astrally project like a normal magician, and being unable to receive power-points when you boost your magic, like a normal adept.
Maybe if you were allowed to purchase power-points afterwards with Karma, up to your natural magic cap (pre-initiation, to be clear) would even things out. As it is, anyone who wants to get the full bang for their buck as a mystic adept has to spend 30 karma on that alone at character creation, as well as pick the priorities that give them that full Magic stat. I don't know about y'all, but I do enjoy playing characters that are recently Awakened or Awaken in play; the current system really hampers improvement for a Mystic Adept (oh look, you're Awakened! Here's Magic 1 for some Karma, and... Well, you can't get power points after character creation. Sucks to be you, I guess).
-
Mystic adepts have the largest growth potential of any archetype in the game.
I think the 5 points is perfectly fair, and makes for interesting decision making. I would love the ability to buy up to magic for maybe 10karma per PP like spells, but its not neccessary. If it was too easy to get full PP, why would anyone want to be an adept.
-
My house rule for this one is that at character generation (or Awakening for those with latent magical ability) the character can purchase PP at 5 karma each, up to their Magic. Afterwards, power points are treated as though it were an attribute, with subsequently increased karma cost. It makes it possible to gain both Power Points and metamagics, but it becomes expensive pretty quickly. If you have five or so PP already, it's often better to simply Initiate and get the PP there.
-
My house rule for this one is that at character generation (or Awakening for those with latent magical ability) the character can purchase PP at 5 karma each, up to their Magic. Afterwards, power points are treated as though it were an attribute, with subsequently increased karma cost. It makes it possible to gain both Power Points and metamagics, but it becomes expensive pretty quickly. If you have five or so PP already, it's often better to simply Initiate and get the PP there.
That's... An awesome idea. Treating it (to an extent) as if it were an attribute.
-
Yah. It's useful for getting you up to adept weight (per se), but puts the breaks on things once you get up there.
As a note, I track Power Points bought in the above manner independently from Power Points gained via Initiation; you could have two Power Points at your Awakening, initiate a couple of times (taking one Power Point in place of a metamagic), then purchase another power point for 15 karma - 2 >> 3 = 3 x 5 = 15 karma. The Initiation power point does not cost towards the total, otherwise there'd be no reason to have the rule at all.
-
The only issue is that Mystic Adepts have from their inception in the SR world been intended to be in the middle ground between Magicians and Adepts. While being intended to not be as proficient in both realms as their more dedicated brethren.
-
Of course. And what do you think a mage could do with 15, 20, or more points of Karma? How about an adept? The balance doesn't come from 'oh, now he's as good as an adept AND as good as a mage', it comes from Opportunity Cost - he had to spend Karma to balance that out, karma that could have gone to other things.
-
Of course. And what do you think a mage could do with 15, 20, or more points of Karma? How about an adept? The balance doesn't come from 'oh, now he's as good as an adept AND as good as a mage', it comes from Opportunity Cost - he had to spend Karma to balance that out, karma that could have gone to other things.
Not to mention not getting astral projection, not getting free power points when you increase magic, and having to split skills, attributes, foci and initiations between mage-stuff and adept-stuff. Being a Mystic Adept only gives you the opportunity to become (nearly) as proficient at being a mage/adept as their pure bretheren (and at a decent cost, as mentioned) - you still have to invest into actually becoming any good in it.
-
I proposed a similar houserule once, although in my proposal buying a PP always cost at least 5 Karma, and you weren't allowed to get more PP (not counting the Initiation ones) than your current Magic rating.
-
Like Martial Arts (which, if you want to take a style and all techniques) cost a maximum of 27 karma; how is this any different from taking up to 30 karma worth of Power Points?
As already pointed out. Martial Arts can be purchased Post Char-Gen. Just like skills & attributes. At no cost change. Power Points, Can Not.
-
If it was too easy to get full PP, why would anyone want to be an adept.
1. Lower Magic Priority Table so better rating in some other priority.
2. No need to take Negative Qualities.
3. Free PP for every Magic Point. Not only is that 30 Free Karma, but its 30 Karma at Char-Gen that is instead being used for Positives or improving Attributes.
-
If it was too easy to get full PP, why would anyone want to be an adept.
1. Lower Magic Priority Table so better rating in some other priority.
2. No need to take Negative Qualities.
3. Free PP for every Magic Point. Not only is that 30 Free Karma, but its 30 Karma at Char-Gen that is instead being used for Positives or improving Attributes.
Even if it had been the 3 or 4 Karma per point, the Adept and the Magician both would have more Karma for foci and various 'tweaking' that is the reason the generation Karma is there to begin with.
-
After the Missions FAQ and the Errata, we're still talking about the power point costs for mystic adepts? Look, a mystic adept in 5th edition at least has the option of starting with 6 magic and 6 power points. In other editions, that wasn't even possible. Can we not just drop this issue after all this time?
-
If it was too easy to get full PP, why would anyone want to be an adept.
1. Lower Magic Priority Table so better rating in some other priority.
2. No need to take Negative Qualities.
3. Free PP for every Magic Point. Not only is that 30 Free Karma, but its 30 Karma at Char-Gen that is instead being used for Positives or improving Attributes.
The question isn't why anyone would want to be an adept, but why anyone would want to be a Mage.
-
Astral Projection without a Free Spirit. :P
-
If it was too easy to get full PP, why would anyone want to be an adept.
1. Lower Magic Priority Table so better rating in some other priority.
2. No need to take Negative Qualities.
3. Free PP for every Magic Point. Not only is that 30 Free Karma, but its 30 Karma at Char-Gen that is instead being used for Positives or improving Attributes.
The question isn't why anyone would want to be an adept, but why anyone would want to be a Mage.
That is the better question, not a lot going for them as is . I know when I'm making munchkin builds , the thought of a pure Mage rarely enters my mind. Honestly from a power standpoint , I am surprised mysadepts do not get a -2 starting spell penalty.
-
Astral Projection without a Free Spirit. :P
what he said! Astral Projection is amazing if you're creative and are equipped to handle astral threats. Not to mention all those karma going towards power points could be spend on foci or could be used on skill points so you can get away with lower skill priorities.
-
At 2 karma per PP, Astral Projection isn't worth it to most. You can still deal with Astral Threats through Astral Perception after all.
Not to mention all those karma going towards power points could be spend on foci or could be used on skill points so you can get away with lower skill priorities.
Which is why when we debated this, over a year ago, I did the math Focus-wise, calculating for everything what the relative karma cost is. And regarding spells + sustaining / quickening, the Mystic Adept won out big time. Right now Mystic Adepts make very nice combat mages, and are a heavy consideration. At 2 karma per PP, they WERE the Combat Mages and you'd be a sucker otherwise.
Also, yes right now it'd matter for skills. But not under the 2 karma per PP version. At best we're talking about a single 3 there, or a bunch of 1s, that's not worth using skill points for.
-
Astral Projection without a Free Spirit. :P
what he said! Astral Projection is amazing if you're creative
Agreed.
Its not about astral threats, IMHO, its Astral Recon/Searching that I think is VERY useful but seems to get ignored by some.
-
At 2 karma per PP, Astral Projection isn't worth it to most. You can still deal with Astral Threats through Astral Perception after all.
that's why i am all for the errata's 5 point cost. 30 points makes you stop and think. I also i was more going towards being the astral threat and not countering them. Astral recon is worth its weight in Orichalum as long as your gm isn't a jerk and gives every stuffer shack force 12 wards
-
The 5 point cost is still overkill. Whether 2 per point was too low or not is beside the point. The fact remains that 3 or 4 per point would be more appropriate since it removes the requirement that no other character type is held to. That being that the Mystic is required to take Negatives or lose out on one or more Power Points permanently. Three points per is the best, since it still leaves a good amount remaining for the 'tweaking' that the generation Karma was ostensibly put there.
-
Mystic Adepts work just fine at 5 points, and a cost of less than 4 is unacceptable.
-
4, or scaling cost are the best options. That, or allowing mystic adepts to buy power points as an attribute after CC, while keeping it at 5 points in CC.
-
Astral Projection without a Free Spirit. :P
what he said! Astral Projection is amazing if you're creative
Agreed.
Its not about astral threats, IMHO, its Astral Recon/Searching that I think is VERY useful but seems to get ignored by some.
The usefulness of being able to Astrally Project is heavily dependent on your group's playstyle and how much your GM reads the setting books and determines how frequently corps implement security measure that amount to total astral blockage (from a reading of the fluff, it'd be very easy to justify a lot of it on virtually any run against a corp). By contrast, it's a very niche kind of group where some kind of always-on Initiative enhancement (say, from having PP and Improved Reflexes) isn't useful regularly, if not every session.
I do think projection is neat but can be worked around easily with Astral Perception, watchers, summoned spirits, etc.
-
The usefulness of being able to Astrally Project is heavily dependent on your group's playstyle and how much your GM reads the setting books and determines how frequently corps implement security measure that amount to total astral blockage (from a reading of the fluff, it'd be very easy to justify a lot of it on virtually any run against a corp). By contrast, it's a very niche kind of group where some kind of always-on Initiative enhancement (say, from having PP and Improved Reflexes) isn't useful regularly, if not every session.
I do think projection is neat but can be worked around easily with Astral Perception, watchers, summoned spirits, etc.
I would turn that around & point out that the usefulness of Summoned Spirits doing it for you is very dependent on your GM.
The way my GM plays them is they are very literal in how they interpret commands & exactly what they report so you better be VERY thorough in what you ask them to do. Its annoying enough IMHO that being able to do it yourself & come up with your own picture of what you find is a lot better.
Not much different IMHO than the difference between always on PP Reflexes & Foci Sustained Reflexes.
The 5 point cost is still overkill.
I don't think so, I think 5 is fine, if anything its CHEAP given what you get.
They would probably be better priced at 7-8. BUT, that IMHO would be only if they could purchase them post CharGen as well.
Think about the cost of Initiation to get that same PP & then think about what you can buy that is similar to various Positive Qualities or to Specializations.
and a cost of less than 4 is unacceptable.
Agreed
4, or scaling cost are the best options. That, or allowing mystic adepts to buy power points as an attribute after CC, while keeping it at 5 points in CC.
I'm not a fan of scaling myself. But post CG purchasing would be nice.
-
The usefulness of being able to Astrally Project is heavily dependent on your group's playstyle and how much your GM reads the setting books and determines how frequently corps implement security measure that amount to total astral blockage (from a reading of the fluff, it'd be very easy to justify a lot of it on virtually any run against a corp). By contrast, it's a very niche kind of group where some kind of always-on Initiative enhancement (say, from having PP and Improved Reflexes) isn't useful regularly, if not every session.
I do think projection is neat but can be worked around easily with Astral Perception, watchers, summoned spirits, etc.
I would turn that around & point out that the usefulness of Summoned Spirits doing it for you is very dependent on your GM.
The way my GM plays them is they are very literal in how they interpret commands & exactly what they report so you better be VERY thorough in what you ask them to do. Its annoying enough IMHO that being able to do it yourself & come up with your own picture of what you find is a lot better.
That sounds rather silly to me. Spirits are highly intelligent, so unless you did something to really piss them off, I don't see why they'd act like rulelawyery douchebags.
As for the PP after chargen: One of my houserule concepts for it is treating them akin to Qualities: 10 karma after chargen, and if you raise your Magic you can also get extra that way. Has a risk of making them too powerful in the end.
-
they have high mental stats yes, but they know nothing of our world. They are totally alien in their though processes. What they think is important and what they think is important are totally different things. It only makes sence for them to take your orders literally to make up for this gap in perception.
Though thought process of spirit folk is far from the stated topic. I say we just trust they know what they are doing with 5 points a pop. Save any other discussion for house-rules threads.
-
Not being able to translate everything in concept is one thing, but taking orders literal without any leeway is rather unbelievable for a creature that is both directly linked to your mind and in possession of higher mental stats than you. If the player has to start plotting Wish spells when using a service, the GM is likely needlessly being a jerk.
-
Imveros, I'll have to disagree on the "know nothing of our world" part - spirits have a gossip network that works better than any human's (mess with one spirit, and every spirit knows somehow), and they're considered Untrained (not Unaware) in any skill they don't have, so by now they'll know quite a bit about our world. Plus who knows how long spirits live? Maybe there's old, wizened spirits that have been around since the Fourth World and complain about how things were so much harder back then and spirits these days don't know how good they have it.
-
The 5 point cost is still overkill. Whether 2 per point was too low or not is beside the point. The fact remains that 3 or 4 per point would be more appropriate since it removes the requirement that no other character type is held to. That being that the Mystic is required to take Negatives or lose out on one or more Power Points permanently. Three points per is the best, since it still leaves a good amount remaining for the 'tweaking' that the generation Karma was ostensibly put there.
Oh god, 3 points per would still be rediculous, they have full casting ability, minus projection, so PP are a luxury that if you want every one of, you need to sacrifice.
-
I have to admit, having to set aside almost all your karma during chargen is a pain. I certainly wouldn't have minded some spare for foci and qualities and whatnot.
But what you get for it - assuming you spend it on sensible things - is certainly worth it at the cost. Improved Reflexes - a staple for most - is a steal at 17.5 karma, and if you put it into skills you'd almost certainly get more from it then you would from spending straight karma into it. Other things, if they even are replaceable with tech or spells, will almost certainly cost more too. Remember, adepts gladly pay for initiations and karma increases just to get more power points, and those are a lot more then 5 karma.
The only thing I'd change is the requirement to buy it all at chargen (like Michael did in our game), as that's the biggest annoyance when building a MA - you pretty much have to buy them all at the start. Leaving the option open to buy some later - even at an inflated cost - would really help with a lot of builds.
-
The only thing I'd change is the requirement to buy it all at chargen (like Michael did in our game), as that's the biggest annoyance when building a MA - you pretty much have to buy them all at the start. Leaving the option open to buy some later - even at an inflated cost - would really help with a lot of builds.
I did?_? I cannot remember whether I offered Spell Slots, doubled cost after chargen or both.
-
As for the PP after chargen: One of my houserule concepts for it is treating them akin to Qualities: 10 karma after chargen, and if you raise your Magic you can also get extra that way. Has a risk of making them too powerful in the end.
Just to clarify, Do you mean FREE for raising your Magic like a Regular Adept, or just buying them for that "open slot"?
-
Buying them for the open slot. So if you got 5 Magic at chargen and get 4 Power Points, Initiate once for 1 PP and raise Magic from 5 to 7, you'd have 4/7 'Magic' PP and 1 through Initiation, so could buy 3 more for 10 karma each. I'm not sure about allowing this past 6 though, and truth be told I cannot remember what I discussed with Top Dog.
-
I cannot remember whether I offered Spell Slots, doubled cost after chargen or both.
Not a fan of Double after Char-Gen. That turns them into Positive Qualities instead of Magical Abilities.
But I could see them being even more than 5K, 7-8 isn't unreasonable IMHO.
Though at 5K they are a nice option to exchange with spells in the CG process.
Actually, I just thought of an idea, it gets kind of complex but, I think it could work.
PP Cost is 8, Pre & Post Gen, up to your Magic Attribute.
Spells Can be Exchanged for PP at a cost of 3 Added Karma.
Now your talking some really diverse set ups at Char-Gen for MA's. They can have Cash & Qualities & Full PP but would sacrafice spells.
They could have a mix of lower levels of them all & bind a foci too, & still be able to grow after CharGen as Adepts & Casters.
So for example, just off the top of my head something like this.
Focused Concentration-4 (16)
Mentor Spirit (5)
3 Spells (0)
2 Power Points for Spells (6)
2 Power Points (16)
7 Karma to Cash = $14,000
Sure, I could build that same build now for 48 Karma & have 2 More spells, but I couldn't grow those last 2 PP ever.
I kind of like the idea of a little more diversity at Chargen & with growth but having the costs be a bit higher.
I also kind of like that it might lead to more situations like you had in SR2-3 where someone was only partially good at both the Adept & Caster sides instead of able to do both of them awesome but w/o any positive qualities or cash or skills.
-
I cannot remember whether I offered Spell Slots, doubled cost after chargen or both.
Not a fan of Double after Char-Gen. That turns them into Positive Qualities instead of Magical Abilities.
That is the idea yes. They want the ability to get them after chargen to get other stuff at chargen, likely stuff they can't get later or only at raised price. So by treating them as Qualities cost-wise, this option is provided but at a price. A free trade is giving them an extra option, an that goes violently against what I believe is a big aspect of SR5: Everything at a price. If they want the extra freedom, it will cost them more than a break-even option. You want those extra contact points? Start the game with Quick Healer or with a quality you can forget about getting after chargen? Need that extra bit of cash to have better survival odds? It will cost you. I'm not adding an extra way for them to get Power Points without it costing them extra.
-
The 5 point cost is still overkill. Whether 2 per point was too low or not is beside the point. The fact remains that 3 or 4 per point would be more appropriate since it removes the requirement that no other character type is held to. That being that the Mystic is required to take Negatives or lose out on one or more Power Points permanently. Three points per is the best, since it still leaves a good amount remaining for the 'tweaking' that the generation Karma was ostensibly put there.
Oh god, 3 points per would still be rediculous, they have full casting ability, minus projection, so PP are a luxury that if you want every one of, you need to sacrifice.
No. No it would not. Number one, it keeps the Power Point cost below the threshold of being required to take a Negative just to get your full allotment (granted 4 does this, but there's number two. Number two, it leaves a halfway decent amount for 'tweaking'. Having 7 Karma left after getting your full Power Point allotment is not overpowered no matter who claims it is.
-
The 5 point cost is still overkill. Whether 2 per point was too low or not is beside the point. The fact remains that 3 or 4 per point would be more appropriate since it removes the requirement that no other character type is held to. That being that the Mystic is required to take Negatives or lose out on one or more Power Points permanently. Three points per is the best, since it still leaves a good amount remaining for the 'tweaking' that the generation Karma was ostensibly put there.
Oh god, 3 points per would still be rediculous, they have full casting ability, minus projection, so PP are a luxury that if you want every one of, you need to sacrifice.
Oh god, i do not know what kind of builds you make, but i could make some hardcore munchkin builds if that was the case, being able to afford a full 25 points of positive qualities, as well as having money left over for Karma, would be broken, no matter how you look at it. Luckily we have the burden of proof being the designers change to 5PP, to back up the opinion of less than 5 being overkill.
No. No it would not. Number one, it keeps the Power Point cost below the threshold of being required to take a Negative just to get your full allotment (granted 4 does this, but there's number two. Number two, it leaves a halfway decent amount for 'tweaking'. Having 7 Karma left after getting your full Power Point allotment is not overpowered no matter who claims it is.
-
The 5 point cost is still overkill. Whether 2 per point was too low or not is beside the point. The fact remains that 3 or 4 per point would be more appropriate since it removes the requirement that no other character type is held to. That being that the Mystic is required to take Negatives or lose out on one or more Power Points permanently. Three points per is the best, since it still leaves a good amount remaining for the 'tweaking' that the generation Karma was ostensibly put there.
Oh god, 3 points per would still be rediculous, they have full casting ability, minus projection, so PP are a luxury that if you want every one of, you need to sacrifice.
No. No it would not. Number one, it keeps the Power Point cost below the threshold of being required to take a Negative just to get your full allotment (granted 4 does this, but there's number two. Number two, it leaves a halfway decent amount for 'tweaking'. Having 7 Karma left after getting your full Power Point allotment is not overpowered no matter who claims it is.
Oh god, i do not know what kind of builds you make, but i could make some hardcore munchkin builds if that was the case, being able to afford a full 25 points of positive qualities, as well as having money left over for Karma, would be broken, no matter how you look at it. Luckily we have the burden of proof being the designers change to 5PP, to back up the opinion of less than 5 being overkill.
And this is exactly the point I've been making all along. The 5 point cost is only there because of people crying over "hardcore munchkin builds", but what wasn't considered was that the "hardcore munchkins" aren't going to be hit that hard by it whereas a player making a more normal character completely gets the shaft (basically 5 points per Power Point turns it into "go munchkin or go home").
-
Is-is this conversation still a thing? I mean, I thought this all got hashed out back when the book released. I must say I find it humorous that well over a year later this conversation refuses to die. I bet a progressive recoil thread is on the way soon as well.
As for my two cents, I feel that the 5 karma cost is perfectly fair, especially given all that MAs get. While I don't feel that MAs beat out Mages beat out Mages in their own area, I do feel that using Astral Projection as a major selling point isn't a very strong argument, as it is too variable in use from GM to GM.
-
Is-is this conversation still a thing? I mean, I thought this all got hashed out back when the book released. I must say I find it humorous that well over a year later this conversation refuses to die. I bet a progressive recoil thread is on the way soon as well.
Yes, and you kept it going by replying. ;) (Oh, crap. So did I!) But I agree on both counts.
-Ariketh
-
Is-is this conversation still a thing? I mean, I thought this all got hashed out back when the book released. I must say I find it humorous that well over a year later this conversation refuses to die. I bet a progressive recoil thread is on the way soon as well.
Someone asked about the rules, and A4BG is very vocal about his opinion on the matter.
-
If it makes you guys feel better, I'm sticking to "full action phase no firing" myself. Outside Missions that is. Inside Missions I'm following the errata.
-
No. No it would not. Number one, it keeps the Power Point cost below the threshold of being required to take a Negative just to get your full allotment (granted 4 does this, but there's number two. Number two, it leaves a halfway decent amount for 'tweaking'. Having 7 Karma left after getting your full Power Point allotment is not overpowered no matter who claims it is.
Why should a mystic adept get to have their "full allotment" of power points? In previous editions with mystic adepts, they had to choose how to split their Magic rating between spellcasting/summoning and their adept abilities. Therefore it was completely unrealistic to have a mystic adept with Magic 6 for their "mystic" portion, and 6 power points for their "adept" portion. The only way to do it in previous editions was to have 12 Magic and split it in half. Even if a mystic adept has to take negative qualities in this edition, at least the option is available.
-
The only thing I'd change is the requirement to buy it all at chargen (like Michael did in our game), as that's the biggest annoyance when building a MA - you pretty much have to buy them all at the start. Leaving the option open to buy some later - even at an inflated cost - would really help with a lot of builds.
I did?_? I cannot remember whether I offered Spell Slots, doubled cost after chargen or both.
You offered both, though I didn't take you up on the spell offer.
-
They were practically unusable in previous editions as well. They gained potential for being usable with the new edition, but unfortunately the 5 karma per Power Point pushed them back toward the other (at least without "going munchkin or going home").
That argument loses me a little bit. The original design of mystic adepts wasn't powerful enough, so they've been boosted. It's been explained by two or three developers that I've seen that the original design intent was to make the power points cost 5 karma, but there was a mistake. Why not just take the fact that they're capable of being extremely powerful now and be happy with it? I mean, this discussion has been going on almost as long as SR5 has existed. No one once has said that it was a good thing that mystic adepts can now get a full compliment of power points and Magic rating at creation.
-
They were practically unusable in previous editions as well. They gained potential for being usable with the new edition, but unfortunately the 5 karma per Power Point pushed them back toward the other (at least without "going munchkin or going home").
That argument loses me a little bit. The original design of mystic adepts wasn't powerful enough, so they've been boosted. It's been explained by two or three developers that I've seen that the original design intent was to make the power points cost 5 karma, but there was a mistake. Why not just take the fact that they're capable of being extremely powerful now and be happy with it? I mean, this discussion has been going on almost as long as SR5 has existed. No one once has said that it was a good thing that mystic adepts can now get a full compliment of power points and Magic rating at creation.
If playing by the rules, if for whatever reason, no Negatives are taken for a Mystic Adept character (most likely because none of the Negatives fit the character) that character loses out on at least one Power Point on a permanent basis (even through advancement, they're still behind by however many they did not get). No other character type in the entire game loses out on something permanently without taking Negative Qualities. This is simply unacceptable.
-
If playing by the rules, if for whatever reason, no Negatives are taken for a Mystic Adept character (most likely because none of the Negatives fit the character) that character loses out on at least one Power Point on a permanent basis (even through advancement, they're still behind by however many they did not get). No other character type in the entire game loses out on something permanently without taking Negative Qualities. This is simply unacceptable.
Thinking about it some more, 5 karma per point is actually somewhat reasonable. It's true, you have to take Negative Qualities to get all of them, but that's the price to pay. Unless I'm mistaken (which I might be), your main qualm is that if you don't take them all at character creation, then you can't get them ever again. I think the simplest, and probably best solution, would be to just track them and you can pay 5 karma to get another point, up to your maximum magic.
-
I don't consider myself very Anti-Mystic Adept at all. In fact, in their current form, I find them rather unplayable (too hard to juggle different priorities and karma to get anything I want). I would much prefer them to be cheaper, but I think you run into the problem where they become somewhat unbalanced as they can get all the spellcasting of a magician and 7 power points if they take negative qualities. I still think tracking them and paying 5 karma per point after character creation is a decent compromise. Sort of balances a power point to a spell, which is kind of what Mystic Adepts are about; do you go more spell slinging or more adept innate powers?
I guess I wouldn't mind 3 karma per point, but then you get into munchkiners and min/maxers (I consider myself to be in the latter category) who would abuse a lot of their power. It's not like losing Magic is as easy in SR5 as it was in SR4, so it is a relatively safe route to choose, although it does come with it's own risks. There's basically very little that limits a Mystic Adept who has their full potential unlocked, at least, not compared to the other magical archetypes.
-
The munchkins will always exist amongst players of just about any game (barring old-school board games like Monopoly or Yahtzee). Their antics should not affect the design of a game because doing so just means that the more 'normal' players really need to dip into munchkinism or fall farther and farther behind.
Let's talk a bit about the design of the game. In previous incarnations, the design was to make mystic adepts split their Magic rating, giving them some very hard, ostensibly unfair choices to make. As stated by numerous developers and insiders, the original design of the current edition was to have the mystic adepts pay 5 karma per point. Ultimately, this isn't too much different from the previous editions, but it makes the choices a little easier. Going by previous editions, most mystic adepts just took the number of power points required to get them Improved Reflexes level 3. That meant they had 2 Magic for spellcasting and conjuring, and 4 Magic for power points. In this edition, you can do the same thing for 20 karma at character creation, and still get your full 6 points of Magic. I'd say that it's a fair compromise.
The design changed a little bit, and in the favor of the mystic adept.
On the topic of the "anti-mystic" comment: I think that's unfair and an incorrect appellation for those of us that have a differing opinion. Quite frankly, I find it a bit offensive. To suggest that because people disagree with you, that they're against a whole segment of the game is just rude. What I've pointed out to you is that the changes to the mystic adept have actually been positive for the archetype. You're saying it's not positive enough. You've been saying it for months, despite what the developers have stated was the original intention, despite the changes made in the errata, and ignoring the evidence that I have brought to you that the changes made were good for mystic adepts.
-
I've thought about playing a mystic adept a few times, but no astral projection always tips me back to full mage.
-
The munchkins will always exist amongst players of just about any game (barring old-school board games like Monopoly or Yahtzee). Their antics should not affect the design of a game because doing so just means that the more 'normal' players really need to dip into munchkinism or fall farther and farther behind.
Let's talk a bit about the design of the game. In previous incarnations, the design was to make mystic adepts split their Magic rating, giving them some very hard, ostensibly unfair choices to make. As stated by numerous developers and insiders, the original design of the current edition was to have the mystic adepts pay 5 karma per point. Ultimately, this isn't too much different from the previous editions, but it makes the choices a little easier. Going by previous editions, most mystic adepts just took the number of power points required to get them Improved Reflexes level 3. That meant they had 2 Magic for spellcasting and conjuring, and 4 Magic for power points. In this edition, you can do the same thing for 20 karma at character creation, and still get your full 6 points of Magic. I'd say that it's a fair compromise.
The design changed a little bit, and in the favor of the mystic adept.
On the topic of the "anti-mystic" comment: I think that's unfair and an incorrect appellation for those of us that have a differing opinion. Quite frankly, I find it a bit offensive. To suggest that because people disagree with you, that they're against a whole segment of the game is just rude. What I've pointed out to you is that the changes to the mystic adept have actually been positive for the archetype. You're saying it's not positive enough. You've been saying it for months, despite what the developers have stated was the original intention, despite the changes made in the errata, and ignoring the evidence that I have brought to you that the changes made were good for mystic adepts.
When it comes down to it, i am not sure what the Logic of A4BG's argument is.
You are upset, that if you want a character with no drawbacks, you should be able to have all the plus side too.....but you aren't a munchkin. Those 2 things do not mesh. Mystic adepts are my favorite archetype, as seen by anyone who is on the character creation page a lot lately. I Instinctively (via common sense of a game mechanic) understand there are going to be some hard choices, and things you are just going to have to get once gameplay starts, because of how powerful you start out, and then can continue to become.
No 2 ways around it, at 2-3karma per PP, you are getting a "cake and eat it too" situation. Just because someone might not know how to build properly, doesn't change that fact. If you are this concerned about poor strategic builders not being punished by the current restrictions, then simply houserule it down, i am not seeing anyone short of new players that do not know any better, agreeing this should be a thing.
-
No other character type in the entire game loses out on something permanently without taking Negative Qualities. This is simply unacceptable.
They lose out on something nobody else gets. How horrible.
-
Enh. My solution works for me. :)
-
Enh. My solution works for me. :)
side with Ouroboros
In our round, we too just skiped this guano and created a new attribute for adepts and adepts powers. Giving mystical adepts two magical attributes .
-
I guess I should say i'm sorry for asking lol. I just joined this forum and had no idea about the argument this would start. the 5 karma a point is fine, and I can use negative qualities to max out if I need too. my concept character can be made pretty close to my ideal set up at generation, and with several runs under my belt i can get the other skills and abilities together to round out. my idea for my character just seems to mesh well with the idea of a mystic adept, but i guess a full mage would probably also work ,but would lack the physical quality I was looking for.
-
I guess I should say i'm sorry for asking lol. I just joined this forum and had no idea about the argument this would start. the 5 karma a point is fine, and I can use negative qualities to max out if I need too. my concept character can be made pretty close to my ideal set up at generation, and with several runs under my belt i can get the other skills and abilities together to round out. my idea for my character just seems to mesh well with the idea of a mystic adept, but i guess a full mage would probably also work ,but would lack the physical quality I was looking for.
You are fine , just a big can of worms for some people , but it gets post counts up, and activity is usually a good thing.
-
You are fine , just a big can of worms for some people , but it gets post counts up, and activity is usually a good thing.
yup the more the pot gets stirred the more likely people are to stay around and comment on other things.
-
I guess I should say i'm sorry for asking lol. I just joined this forum and had no idea about the argument this would start. the 5 karma a point is fine, and I can use negative qualities to max out if I need too. my concept character can be made pretty close to my ideal set up at generation, and with several runs under my belt i can get the other skills and abilities together to round out. my idea for my character just seems to mesh well with the idea of a mystic adept, but i guess a full mage would probably also work ,but would lack the physical quality I was looking for.
It's fine, really. Not your fault - A4BG just gets like this every time anyone utters the term "mystic adept".
-
Yup, there's like a dozen active people around that all have their own pet issues that they immediately trigger on.
Anyway, I'll try to make time to get my "possible houserules" thread going, that way you could always point your GM at it and go "I don't think it's necessary, but you could take a look there". They would come with justifications and wouldn't give everything for free, but it's still something that may interest the GM. I don't agree with all the houserules I'd post, but eh.
-
*raises hand* And I actually agree with him. Though personally I think my dislike of the "only character which loses something by stepping out of chargen" is mostly that it's bad form for game design.
From an actual balance perspective, I actively play a mystic adept that started with 6PP and he's perfectly fine. Frankly the issue is much bigger on paper and at chargen than in actual play.
-
I have already talked to my gm about character progression and such, hes got plans for extra karma to be earned and such so i can build up a little faster.
-
I like some of the ideas about more Karma/PP & purchasing them post Char-Gen are interesting, but honestly they all mean bigger changes.
IMHO, one small addition that would be best is to allow MA to swap Spells for PP at Char-Gen is the ultimate fix.
Its quick & easy & its most in keeping with the old feel of the MA having to Trade Off between Adept v/s Caster power.
-
I disagree with a 1:1 trade myself, with the same reason as why I'd make PP cost 10 karma after chargen. You're going to use that karma for stuff you can't as easily get after chargen, if at all, and for example PQs cost double afterwards (if allowed by the GM) so it seems fair to make you give up 2 spell slots instead of 1. Everything at a price, otherwise all you're doing is making the player pay a tiny bit of cash extra for the spells afterwards.
-
I disagree with a 1:1 trade myself, with the same reason as why I'd make PP cost 10 karma after chargen. You're going to use that karma for stuff you can't as easily get after chargen, if at all, and for example PQs cost double afterwards (if allowed by the GM) so it seems fair to make you give up 2 spell slots instead of 1. Everything at a price, otherwise all you're doing is making the player pay a tiny bit of cash extra for the spells afterwards.
The issue isn't that 5K is cheap, well I think 5K IS cheap, but most don't seem to.
The issue is that in order to be a full Adept you have to give up Positive Qualities or take Negatives.
When what you SHOULD have to give up is Casting Ability.
What represents Casting ability ? Spells & Magic Attribute. And you can't give up Magic Attribute in 5E, so spells it is.
PP aren't PQ
PP are 5K
Spells are 5K
Its an easy trade and solves the issue of having to give up PQ or take NQ when in early versions you gave up casting.
-
When what you SHOULD have to give up is Casting Ability.
And giving up 2 spell slots per PP still is giving up Casting Ability, but at a rate where it actually is a risky price.
PP aren't PQ
PP are 5K
Spells are 5K
But spells are available after chargen, whereas PP aren't and PQ cost double. So PP=Spells is as flawed as PP=PQ. Besides, I never stated they are PQ. But as you said yourself, "you have to give up Positive Qualities or take Negatives". And that is precisely the point as to why I'd double costs like with PQs.
You say it's an easy trade. That is EXACTLY why you should realize it shouldn't be allowed that way. MAs are already balanced, and giving them yet more freedom without a single actual price is completely unnecessary. When all the MA has to do is pay the 5 Karma after chargen for the spell, rather than 5 karma for the PP now, you're no different than someone letting you buy the PP after chargen at the same price. No, in fact you're even nicer, because not all builds require all those Spell Slots. So you're giving the Mystic Adepts a massive freebie without any significant cost or risk. And that is ANYTHING but small. A small rule change with massive consequences cannot be considered small by any measure.
-
IMHO, one small addition that would be best is to allow MA to swap Spells for PP at Char-Gen is the ultimate fix.
This actually would be the absolute best way for the Mystics to get their Power Points. If their spell slots were used for it with the 5 Karma cost being there as well, then they would be unlikely to lose out on one or more permanently (which is the largest problem), and the system would be perfectly set up to accommodate practically any Mystic character idea (barring any that may require more skill points than is possible for a Mystic to get without having crap attributes).
Forget what true, full-on "hardcore munchkins" might do with it. Their actions should never be taken into account when designing a system. To do so only screws over more 'normal' players however unintentionally.
-
Considering how broad your definition of "hardcore munchkin" is, that's not a statement I can agree with.
-
I think we see Spells differently.
Because as my GM is so fond of telling me. "You can never have enough spells".
And he's right. Every mission I have hit a point where I wished I had a different spell.
You say spell slots aren't worth much & many builds don't need them.
I think on the other hand think are VERY useful & I constantly wish I had more.
I'm also not sure its got massive consequences.
It allows everything a 5PP build can do, but then gives you the 6th & final point while loosing 1 of your spells
Or it allows you to do a 5PP build & loose all of a C-Spells, most of B-Spells, & 1/2 of A-Spells.
Actually that is maybe the one way I can see it starting to get imbalanced. A-Magic, loose 1/2 the Spells for PP's.
Then still have 25 Full Qualities. And even then I'm not sure that is actually a Broken Character.
It would allow a 6 PP character w/ Full Negatives to also have Focused-Con-4 & Mentor Spirit.
Of course, since Foc-Con-3 & Mentor is already possible & PP-Reflexes is already better than if you were Sustaining Spell-Reflexes....Even that I'm not seeing as horridly broken.
I'm not seeing how this trade will suddenly make MA more overpowered than they already are.
It does mean they might not all be broke at 6K Cash to start.
Not sure that is a solid balancing issue to begin with given all characters should be able to start with a Fake SIN & a Vehicle of some type or it just makes the game...... well......... annoying honestly.
I'd love to hear some actual examples of builds that would be drastically different than what is already legal & would be "broken" with what they can do.
-
A spell (beyond your Priority allocation) during character generation costs 5 karma; a Power Point costs 5 Karma. I would likely allow (or request) that a single spell slot be allowed to substitute for a Power Point.
Meaning, a character with Mystic Adept at Priority A could take 6 Power Points and 4 Spells for no cost, instead of 10 Spells, and then spend the normal allotment of Karma on other things like skills; if there's one thing that strikes me as challenging with Mystic Adepts it's creating a balanced build at character generation.
-
Forget what true, full-on "hardcore munchkins" might do with it. Their actions should never be taken into account when designing a system. To do so only screws over more 'normal' players however unintentionally.
While I'm not sure I agree with that statement, I do think that much of the reason that MA are seen as Munchkin is because so many people go for the full 6PP at Chargen because you can't get them later.
If the 5PP cost of PP at Chargen was just how MA had to purchase them all the time, I think you would see a lot less 6PP builds & instead see more flavor builds that actually went into spells, qualities, skills, etc etc.
Right now the closest thing PP purchasing is to, is Contacts of all things. You have to take them only at Char-Gen & you have no chance to buy more later. Which is kind of annoying really.
-
A spell (beyond your Priority allocation) during character generation costs 5 karma; a Power Point costs 5 Karma. I would likely allow (or request) that a single spell slot be allowed to substitute for a Power Point.
The problem with this system comes into effect after character creation. A player can easily replace that lost spell slot for 5 karma after character generation. They cannot buy a power point after character generation. This means that someone could easily sacrifice 6 spell slots for 6 power points, spending 0 karma at character creation, and then spending 30 karma later to replace those spell slots. It is, in effect, allowing a player to buy power points after character creation.
Thus, the argument by many is that if you allow spells to be traded for power points, why not just allow power points to be bought after character creation? My argument is that mystic adepts could never have 6 power points and 6 Magic points, so why should people complain if it costs a bit more to actually be able to achieve that desired goal? As I type this, my two week old daughter is doing the same thing. She cries when she's on her back because she wants to be on her side, but then she cries on her side because she's not on her back.
-
Real Name: Caitlin
Achievement Unlocked: New Street Name!! (Shadowcat, Rum Tum Tugger)
-
You say it's an easy trade. That is EXACTLY why you should realize it shouldn't be allowed that way. MAs are already balanced, and giving them yet more freedom without a single actual price is completely unnecessary. When all the MA has to do is pay the 5 Karma after chargen for the spell, rather than 5 karma for the PP now, you're no different than someone letting you buy the PP after chargen at the same price. No, in fact you're even nicer, because not all builds require all those Spell Slots. So you're giving the Mystic Adepts a massive freebie without any significant cost or risk. And that is ANYTHING but small. A small rule change with massive consequences cannot be considered small by any measure.
You're extrapolating from some builds ("not all") needing less spells to the universal statement that allowing spells for PP one for one would unbalance them overall.That's making a lot of assumptions. Buying spells after character generation carries time as well as financial cost in contrast to chargen, where they cost five karma and nothing else. MA's start with either 10, 7 or 5 spells. I can see a build being fine with less than ten spells but seven is already very few and five is the bare minimum.
The issue is that people feel obligated to buy all six PP at chargen because they are impossible or very expensive to get post chargen.With your two spells for one PP change you fix nothing because no one would actually make use of that rule unless you also remove the opportunity to buy PPs for five karma a pop. If you removed buying PPs for five karma, you'd change the balance of MAs which ýou say is currently fine.
-
Real Name: Caitlin
Achievement Unlocked: New Street Name!! (Shadowcat, Rum Tum Tugger)
dont get it :(
-
Ref: Namikaze's newborn (Caitlin 'Shadowcat'), the musical 'CATS'.
-
A spell (beyond your Priority allocation) during character generation costs 5 karma; a Power Point costs 5 Karma. I would likely allow (or request) that a single spell slot be allowed to substitute for a Power Point.
The problem with this system comes into effect after character creation. A player can easily replace that lost spell slot for 5 karma after character generation. They cannot buy a power point after character generation. This means that someone could easily sacrifice 6 spell slots for 6 power points, spending 0 karma at character creation, and then spending 30 karma later to replace those spell slots. It is, in effect, allowing a player to buy power points after character creation.
Thus, the argument by many is that if you allow spells to be traded for power points, why not just allow power points to be bought after character creation? My argument is that mystic adepts could never have 6 power points and 6 Magic points, so why should people complain if it costs a bit more to actually be able to achieve that desired goal? As I type this, my two week old daughter is doing the same thing. She cries when she's on her back because she wants to be on her side, but then she cries on her side because she's not on her back.
That's a fair argument, Namikaze.
I'd counter by stating that they would be limited to their current MAG score, and that they could only ever buy/trade this way for Power Points that were available to them at character generation.
I would also agree that I believe Mystic Adepts are playable just fine as they are right now. Trading a Spell for a Power Point would be my vision of the easiest (albeit most impactful) way of addressing the potential issue of Power Points being "lost".
-
A spell (beyond your Priority allocation) during character generation costs 5 karma; a Power Point costs 5 Karma. I would likely allow (or request) that a single spell slot be allowed to substitute for a Power Point.
The problem with this system comes into effect after character creation. A player can easily replace that lost spell slot for 5 karma after character generation. They cannot buy a power point after character generation. This means that someone could easily sacrifice 6 spell slots for 6 power points, spending 0 karma at character creation, and then spending 30 karma later to replace those spell slots. It is, in effect, allowing a player to buy power points after character creation.
Thus, the argument by many is that if you allow spells to be traded for power points, why not just allow power points to be bought after character creation? My argument is that mystic adepts could never have 6 power points and 6 Magic points, so why should people complain if it costs a bit more to actually be able to achieve that desired goal? As I type this, my two week old daughter is doing the same thing. She cries when she's on her back because she wants to be on her side, but then she cries on her side because she's not on her back.
One (admittedly relatively minor) counterargument to be made is that, with the rules as they are now, it's very expensive to make a Mystic Adept that's high on the Adept and low on the Mystic side. You have to buy the 6 power points in that case, but can't not buy (some of) the spellcasting power that entails, so you end up paying out of your nose for something you don't want.
The rules as they stand are excellent for a quasi-magician that wants a bunch of powers on top of that package. 5 karma per PP is certainly not overpriced in that case. But something to help the Adept who wants some minor spellcasting on the side wouldn't be overpowered in the least in my opinion. Problem, though, is anything that helps the latter will probably overpower the former as well. That's why I like the 2 spells per PP option, btw; no sane "magician-adept" would take it, but less caster-focused characters might.
Mind you, the argument that MA's in former editions couldn't have both at the same time doesn't really work for me. While SR5 should certainly look back to earlier editions to inform flavor and perhaps guide the rules, those rules stand on their own and should be balanced on their own. As others noticed, MA's in former editions were kind of underpowered; them working differently in SR5 shouldn't be an automatic strike against changing them further away from that. MA being fine (and possibly too powerful) in SR5 is an argument against that, but that should stand on it's own merit, without consideration for how SR4 handled it.
-
I'm stepping out of the main debate until I hear back on a few PMs. One sidenote though:
Herr Brackhaus, a clarification request: Did you mean a SINGLE trade, or a 1:1 trade? Giving up 1 spell slot for 1 PP, or giving up as many as you want for 1 PP each? Because even if you did not mean the first, I am stealing it for the houserule topic. :)
-
I did mean a 1:1 trade of Spell for Power Point; Top Dog summarized my stance nicely, so I'll just refer to his last post.
And by all means, steal away; looks like there are plenty of options for houserules. 1:1, 2:1 exchanges of Spells to Power Points, a single Power Point for a single Spell, two for two, etc, buying Power Points after character generation as Positive Qualities, buying Power Points after Character Generation for X Karma (but only up to a certain value), etc.
-
One (admittedly relatively minor) counterargument to be made is that, with the rules as they are now, it's very expensive to make a Mystic Adept that's high on the Adept and low on the Mystic side. You have to buy the 6 power points in that case, but can't not buy (some of) the spellcasting power that entails, so you end up paying out of your nose for something you don't want.
This is true (although the Magic-increase-doesn't-give-a-PP-to-mystics nerf was necessary, it also makes it harder to be a spellcasting adept, rather than an adepting magician). It would perhaps be better to split Mystic Adepts into two categories, although I'm not sure how that would work. I'll try to think of a houserule.
-
A one time trade at character creation might be a good balance 3 spells : 2 pp .
-
A one time trade at character creation might be a good balance 3 spells : 2 pp .
The problem there being that now power points are 7.5 karma at character creation. The whole problem with swapping spells for power points is that spells can be re-purchased after character creation.
One (admittedly relatively minor) counterargument to be made is that, with the rules as they are now, it's very expensive to make a Mystic Adept that's high on the Adept and low on the Mystic side. You have to buy the 6 power points in that case, but can't not buy (some of) the spellcasting power that entails, so you end up paying out of your nose for something you don't want.
That is extremely true. Unfortunately, the only way I can think of to do that is to go back to the split Magic system, wherein a person could spend 5 of their Magic on Adept stuff, and keep 1 for Mystic stuff. That's an interesting perspective you've brought to the table though: is there a way in the current rules to make an adept with a little bit of magician?
-
...is there a way in the current rules to make an adept with a little bit of magician?
Currently, there is just skill focusing like taking Arcana and Assensing as your two magical skills from the priority listing. Trading spell slots for Power Points on top of the karma cost being there, would fix both the problem of losing out permanently on one or more and further help the more Adept focus Mystics be pulled off. Anything it does to "break" severely niche munchkin-build Mystics is a very small price to pay.
-
Anything it does to "break" severely niche munchkin-build Mystics is a very small price to pay.
I don't think a mystic adept getting additional spells later in character development is "severely niche." I think it's expected behavior. The problem is that it is, in effect, allowing someone to buy power points after creation. To be honest, I don't know that I'd have a problem with the fundamentals of allowing someone to buy a power point after creation - it already happens as an option with Initiation. It would just require some serious consideration before being thrown into the game.
-
I think I have a houserule proposal which works. It splits Magic into two kinds (Magician and Adept) again, but instead of having to do a full split, you get one kind for free, and need to pay Karma for the other kind - but your secondary kind of Magic cannot go as high as the primary kind.
- Magic: used for Conjuring and Sorcery skillgroups (including determining if Drain is Stun or Physical), spells, Magician metamagics
- Chi: used for Adept powers (including maximum ranks), Adept metamagics, power points (1 PP per point of Chi, limit still applies)
- Primary type (so highest value): Enchanting skillgroup, Initiating
- Losing Magic due to Essence decreases both kinds
- Mystic Adept (Adept who does some mystic stuff):
- Get Chi normally
- Pay 5 Karma per point of Magic, up to [Chi - 2] (post-chargen: 5 Karma and 1 week of downtime, limit still applies)
AdeptVersed/Versatile Mage (Mage who does some adept stuff):
- Get Magic normally
- Pay 5 Karma per point of Chi, up to [Magic - 2] (post-chargen: 5 Karma and 1 week of downtime)
Here's some of the things I think are good about this proposal:
- It solves the "you have to spend 30 Karma or you'll lose out on that thing nobody else gets ever" dilemma
- Unless you get Exceptional Attribute (Magic) or Exceptional Attribute (Chi), both Mystic Adepts and Versed Mages can only invest 20 Karma into their secondary type at chargen
- If you don't max your secondary type, you can still boost it post-chargen
- It allows for both Magician-first and Adept-first characters, adding more flavor to your character
- It ties your Chi to your Power Points, so no strange "9 Magic and only 3 PP" situations, plus it's easy to remember how many PP you're supposed to have: just add your Chi and the amount of PP you got from Initiations together
- Aside from starting with 6 PP, you can do everything the current system allows and more
EDIT: Changed "Mage Magic" to "Magic" and "Adept Magic" to Chi, as per Lucean's names; also changed "Adept Mage" to "Versed Mage" or "Versatile Mage" to prevent acronym confusion with Aspected Magicians.
-
A one time trade at character creation might be a good balance 3 spells : 2 pp .
The problem there being that now power points are 7.5 karma at character creation. The whole problem with swapping spells for power points is that spells can be re-purchased after character creation.
Yes but it is signifying a giving up of power, to focus it elsewhere. Pp are still 5 at creation, so you are overall taking a hit for it. You can always just pay the karma to max the PP, so you aren't giving them access to something they cannot do.
More often then not , what this would allow is adequate money trade in to afford sin and starting vehicle , which seems to be the problem area finding room for in most mysadept builds, unless you are human.
-
More often then not , what this would allow is adequate money trade in to afford sin and starting vehicle , which seems to be the problem area finding room for in most mysadept builds, unless you are human.
Not to mention armor (even something as simple as Armored Clothing), a non-magical means to be able to attack both close in and at range (gun and melee weapon), a comm link and a lifestyle over Street.
-
More often then not , what this would allow is adequate money trade in to afford sin and starting vehicle , which seems to be the problem area finding room for in most mysadept builds, unless you are human.
Not to mention armor (even something as simple as Armored Clothing), a non-magical means to be able to attack both close in and at range (gun and melee weapon), a comm link and a lifestyle over Street.
What are you buying that you can't afford an Armor Jacket, a gun, a commlink (granted not a Transys Avalon), and a low Lifestyle? I mean, I don't necessarily like how low of money a Mystic Adept has, but you can fit all of that in pretty easily. The gun isn't going to be a tricked out Assault Rifle or Sniper, but even a Pistol or Submachine Gun will do.
-
More often then not , what this would allow is adequate money trade in to afford sin and starting vehicle , which seems to be the problem area finding room for in most mysadept builds, unless you are human.
Not to mention armor (even something as simple as Armored Clothing), a non-magical means to be able to attack both close in and at range (gun and melee weapon), a comm link and a lifestyle over Street.
What are you buying that you can't afford an Armor Jacket, a gun, a commlink (granted not a Transys Avalon), and a low Lifestyle? I mean, I don't necessarily like how low of money a Mystic Adept has, but you can fit all of that in pretty easily. The gun isn't going to be a tricked out Assault Rifle or Sniper, but even a Pistol or Submachine Gun will do.
The Resources Priority most likely for a Mystic (Priority E) can give the Low Lifestyle and ONE Fake SIN that is worth buying, and that is it.
-
The Resources Priority most likely for a Mystic (Priority E) can give the Low Lifestyle and ONE Fake SIN that is worth buying, and that is it.
That's making some assumptions about who plays a Mystic Adept that I don't think are necessarily accurate.
I think I have a houserule proposal which works. It splits Magic into two kinds (Magician and Adept) again, but instead of having to do a full split, you get one kind for free, and need to pay Karma for the other kind - but your secondary kind of Magic cannot go as high as the primary kind.
This is intriguing. I'll have to think on it some more, but it looks like it might be feasible. A little more bookkeeping, but I think everyone's used to doing more bookkeeping to do what they want in SR. :)
-
I think some of y'all are forgetting that you can spend Karma to get more nuyen; 1 Karma for 2,000 Nuyen is a great investment, and is still possible for a rule-as-is chargen Mystic Adept if you're eating Negative Qualities anyways. With the base 6,000, you can afford either a good or cheap-but-tricked-out weapon or two (approximately 1,000) some decent armor (1,000, give or take), an acceptable commlink with a throw-away or two (1,000; you don't need a high Device Rating if you don't need security for your Wireless stuff), along with a shoddy SIN and a month of Squatter lifestyle (3,000). Every point of Karma past that just enhances the basics and adds to your kit for whatever your focus is (kit for whatever role you fill, more lifestyle, more SINs, a personal vehicle if necessary).
-
I think some of y'all are forgetting that you can spend Karma to get more nuyen; 1 Karma for 2,000 Nuyen is a great investment, and is still possible for a rule-as-is chargen Mystic Adept if you're eating Negative Qualities anyways. With the base 6,000, you can afford either a good or cheap-but-tricked-out weapon or two (approximately 1,000) some decent armor (1,000, give or take), an acceptable commlink with a throw-away or two (1,000; you don't need a high Device Rating if you don't need security for your Wireless stuff), along with a shoddy SIN and a month of Squatter lifestyle (3,000). Every point of Karma past that just enhances the basics and adds to your kit for whatever your focus is (kit for whatever role you fill, more lifestyle, more SINs, a personal vehicle if necessary).
And the more Karma you use up getting necessary "Everyman" gear, the less you have for the miscellaneous 'tweaking' (flavor or otherwise) in other areas that is supposed to be what that Karma is for.
-
And the more Karma you use up getting necessary "Everyman" gear, the less you have for the miscellaneous 'tweaking' (flavor or otherwise) in other areas that is supposed to be what that Karma is for.
Except gear is tweaking the character? Just my personal opinion, but what they have does impact the way I look at them and how they can play.
-
And the more Karma you use up getting necessary "Everyman" gear, the less you have for the miscellaneous 'tweaking' (flavor or otherwise) in other areas that is supposed to be what that Karma is for.
Except gear is tweaking the character? Just my personal opinion, but what they have does impact the way I look at them and how they can play.
Also remember that a good chunk of what you use for Contacts comes from that pool, so the more you use for getting the necessaries, the less you can afford flavorful Contacts that may not be immediately useful on most occasions.
-
Also remember that a good chunk of what you use for Contacts comes from that pool, so the more you use for getting the necessaries, the less you can afford flavorful Contacts that may not be immediately useful on most occasions.
I have an idea. Let's just get rid of the tough decisions entirely. Everyone gets to make anything they want, no restrictions at all.
-
[Also remember that a good chunk of what you use for Contacts comes from that pool, so the more you use for getting the necessaries, the less you can afford flavorful Contacts that may not be immediately useful on most occasions.
Instead of possibly misinterpreting what you said; please explain what you meant by that?
-
The Resources Priority most likely for a Mystic (Priority E) can give the Low Lifestyle and ONE Fake SIN that is worth buying, and that is it.
I think some of y'all are forgetting that you can spend Karma to get more nuyen; 1 Karma for 2,000 Nuyen is a great investment, and is still possible for a rule-as-is chargen Mystic Adept if you're eating Negative Qualities anyways. With the base 6,000, you can afford either a good or cheap-but-tricked-out weapon or two (approximately 1,000) some decent armor (1,000, give or take), an acceptable commlink with a throw-away or two (1,000; you don't need a high Device Rating if you don't need security for your Wireless stuff), along with a shoddy SIN and a month of Squatter lifestyle (3,000). Every point of Karma past that just enhances the basics and adds to your kit for whatever your focus is (kit for whatever role you fill, more lifestyle, more SINs, a personal vehicle if necessary).
And the more Karma you use up getting necessary "Everyman" gear, the less you have for the miscellaneous 'tweaking' (flavor or otherwise) in other areas that is supposed to be what that Karma is for.
I don't think you understand a Priority based system. If you have a problem with E for resources, you could always lowball skills, or metatype, or attributes. It's your damn pick. That's the point of a Priority system, is that you have to take a hit somewhere. If you really are that mad about E for resources not giving you enough money, just play Prime Runner games. That way you never have to spend karma for money because it is not "flavorful". You do realize the person who owns very little and has to rely on their own skills and magic is a flavorful roleplaying choice.
And no, this problem doesn't appear just for Mystic Adepts. Most adepts that I've made either take a hit to skills or Resources; most deckers I've made have to take a hit to Attributes. Let's not even start on Technomancers. So, Mystic Adepts are not alone in this problem.
-
[Also remember that a good chunk of what you use for Contacts comes from that pool, so the more you use for getting the necessaries, the less you can afford flavorful Contacts that may not be immediately useful on most occasions.
Instead of possibly misinterpreting what you said; please explain what you meant by that?
You get [Charisma x 3] "free" Karma to invest in Contacts, which isn't enough for most characters to get the contacts they want, so they invest extra Karma. Getting 6 Power Points costs you 30 Karma out of a maximum of 50, which leaves 20 Karma for rounding out skills, buying gear, getting extra contacts, and the like.
-
You get [Charisma x 3] "free" Karma to invest in Contacts, which isn't enough for most characters to get the contacts they want, so they invest extra Karma. Getting 6 Power Points costs you 30 Karma out of a maximum of 50, which leaves 20 Karma for rounding out skills, buying gear, getting extra contacts, and the like.
Not what I meant, but thanks. I was more curious about the 'flavorful contacts that may not be immediately useful' bit.
-
I think I have a houserule proposal which works. It splits Magic into two kinds (Magician and Adept) again, but instead of having to do a full split, you get one kind for free, and need to pay Karma for the other kind - but your secondary kind of Magic cannot go as high as the primary kind.
- "Mage Magic": used for Conjuring and Sorcery skillgroups (including determining if Drain is Stun or Physical), spells, Magician metamagics
- "Adept Magic": used for Adept powers (including maximum ranks), Adept metamagics, power points (1 PP per point of Adept Magic, limit still applies)
- Primary type (so highest value): Enchanting skillgroup
- Losing Magic due to Essence decreases both kinds
- Mystic Adept (Adept who does some mystic stuff):
- Get "Adept Magic" normally
- Pay 5 Karma per point of "Mage Magic", up to [Adept Magic - 2] (post-chargen: 5 Karma and 1 week of downtime, limit still applies)
- Adept Mage (Mage who does some adept stuff):
- Get "Mage Magic" normally
- Pay 5 Karma per point of "Adept Magic", up to [Mage Magic - 2] (post-chargen: 5 Karma and 1 week of downtime)
Here's some of the things I think are good about this proposal:
- It solves the "you have to spend 30 Karma or you'll lose out on that thing nobody else gets ever" dilemma
- Unless you get Exceptional Attribute (Magic), both Mystic Adepts and Adept Mages can only invest 20 Karma into their secondary type at chargen
- If you don't max your secondary type, you can still boost it post-chargen
- It allows for both Magician-first and Adept-first characters, adding more flavor to your character
- It ties your "Adept Magic" to your Power Points, so no strange "9 Magic and only 3 PP" situations, plus it's easy to remember how many PP you're supposed to have: just add your "Adept Magic" and the amount of PP you got from Initiations together
- Aside from starting with 6 PP, you can do everything the current system allows and more
This looks similar to what we implemented, although we don't have someone using that system atm.
Since we still use SR4 Karmagen it might not be fully applicable, though.
- MAGic governs Spellcasting, Summoning, Enchanting and Alchemy
- CHI governs PP, power limits, Way bonus options
Mystic adepts start with both attributes at 1 and they are independant of each other. Essence loss and initiation applies to both attributes.
This way you have an easier time starting out with both, but males it progressively harder to improve yourself.
Your system looks fine to be applied to the current rules.
-
@ZeCoster: One issue with your system is that it robs the MA (or AM in your terminology) of the option to initiate for a powerpoint (because the limit still applies).Also capping magic like that kind of kills the "Jack of all Trades" concept behind most MA builds that I have encountered.
Personally, I think the spells for powerpoint change is the best proposal for a solution we've had so far. Though, I do see a few issues with it:
1. Allowing the PP for spells swap frees up karma for other things. Some consider this a bug others a feature.
2. Allowing PPs to be bought with spell slots eliminates the cost or PP (almost entirely) for a build that focuses on the adept and summoning exclusively. If you don't want to cast spells, you don't need any.
3. The cost of a single spell at chargen is not really five karma. The cost of a spell beyond the budget given by priorites is five karma. This means that depending on which priority a character picks the value of a spell changes. This is made worse by the fact that the magic priority does three different things and the other two are likely prioritized higher than spells. Hence, if we equate one spell with one powerpoint, the cost of a PP bought with karma is fixed while the cost of a PP bought with a spell slot is variable.
One and two I don't consider much of a problem. Three however is more difficult to adress. Changing the amount of spells does not work as no one would buy PP at "double" the price. (Not truly double, but no matter what, spells are indivisible units and as such two will always be worth "more" than five karma, since you cannot buy them both back with five karma.) Making PP cost variable doesn't solve the problem either because then a ratio where the cost of a PP is lower or higher relative to a spell will inevitably arise. However, one thing is constant, no matter how much the cost of a single spell varies, it never becomes zero unless a character choses to forgo spellcasting altogether. Furthermore the changes in cost seem sufficiently small to me to not have an issue with it. (Skillpoints for example vary in cost as well.)
The most elegant solution, in my mind, would be to break the power of the magic priority and make them all give an even five tokens that can be used for powerpoints or spells at a 1:1 ratio. Then give players their spellcasting skill rating worth of free spells. Higher priorities would still get their free spells, if they pick spellcasting as a free skill. There'd be a few more spells to go around for mages overall, but I don't see that as much of an issue. Numbers can always be tweaked though.
-
@ZeCoster: One issue with your system is that it robs the MA (or AM in your terminology) of the option to initiate for a powerpoint (because the limit still applies).Also capping magic like that kind of kills the "Jack of all Trades" concept behind most MA builds that I have encountered.
The limit this system introduces is just on the effective "Adept Magic". Initiation PP has always been able to go over the "normal" PP=Magic limit, this system wouldn't change that. If your Magic 6, "Adept Magic" 4 character would initiate, he'd still have 4 "Adept Magic", but 5 PP. Just as a Magic 4 ordinary adept who initiated for the PP.
Interesting question for the pedants under us: under this system, can you initiate 6 times (for aformentioned Magic 6/Adept Magic 4 character) for 6 additional PP, ending at 4+6=10?
-
This would be entirely up to the table, since it's a houserule :)
But you could leave initiations entirely to the cap of highest MAG attribute or could try to distinguish between "adept initiation" and "magician initiation" with the total cap still being the highest of the two, but individual uses being restricted to the governing attribute - so PP would be limited to the adept attribute.
-
Stealing your "Magic and Chi" names, Lucean. ;D (Also renaming Adept Mage to Versed Mage or Versatile Mage so the acronym isn't the same as that of Aspected Magician).
@ZeCoster: One issue with your system is that it robs the MA (or AM in your terminology) of the option to initiate for a powerpoint (because the limit still applies).
It really doesn't:
it's easy to remember how many PP you're supposed to have: just add your "Adept Magic"Chi and the amount of PP you got from Initiations together
It doesn't even add to bookkeeping for tracking PP compared to simply allowing PP to be bought post-chargen: instead of writing down your Magic Rating and how many PP you've bought with Karma, you write down your Magic Rating and your Chi Rating. Other bookkeeping is mostly limited to replacing "Magic" with "Chi" for adept powers and certain skills.
Also capping magic like that kind of kills the "Jack of all Trades" concept behind most MA builds that I have encountered.
It allows MAs to focus on their adept side over their magician side, which is something several people, including A4BG, have complained about the current system not allowing. I choose to see this not as "killing the Jack-of-all-Trades concept" but as "turning being a Mystic Adept into a Major-Minor thing, adding more flavor". You could always loosen the limit to -1 instead of -2, though.
Simply allowing for the swapping of spells and Power Points only solves one problem people have with the restrictions on Mystic Adepts; my proposal solves three:
- lowering how much Karma you can invest in being an MA/VM at chargen frees up Karma for other things
- tying your Power Points to your Chi rating allows you to get more Power Points as a VM if you raise your Magic post-chargen (by paying 5 Karma to raise your Chi as well, which only takes 1 week instead of [new rating] weeks), and grants MAs a free Power Point if they raise their Chi
- it allows for Mystic Adepts which are focused more on their adept side than their Magician side
Plus IMNSHO it makes MAs more interesting - with a system like that, I wouldn't mind playing one.
Minor side-note, by the way: my name is ZeConster, not ZeCoster.
Interesting question for the pedants under us: under this system, can you initiate 6 times (for aformentioned Magic 6/Adept Magic 4 character) for 6 additional PP, ending at 4+6=10?
I'd go with "highest of Magic and Chi", myself, but people who are actual GMs may disagree, or go with Lucean's idea if they don't mind the extra bookkeeping.
-
It doesn't even add to bookkeeping for tracking PP compared to simply allowing PP to be bought post-chargen: instead of writing down your Magic Rating and how many PP you've bought with Karma, you write down your Magic Rating and your Chi Rating. Other bookkeeping is mostly limited to replacing "Magic" with "Chi" for adept powers and certain skills.
I missed that part, my bad. Also, I'm sorry misspelled your name. :-[
I see the idea behind your system, but I do not see how it solves more than the spell swap option. Using spell "slots" to buy PPs frees up karma as well, if you don't use karma to "buy back" the spells and solves the "requires negative qualities" issue in the same way. MA's can already focus on their adept side by spending their karma on PP initiations rather than raising magic or buying spells, though your system does allow them to do so at chargen already.
Just to make sure I get this right:
Your system is based on two attributes: Magic and Chi. At chargen the player decides which of the two he wishes to prioritize. Let's call the primary A and the secondary B for simplicity's sake.- Attribute A is equal to the magic rating as listed on the priority table plus allocated special attribute points, with a maximum of six.
- Attribute B's maximum is equal to attribute A's value - 2 but it's current value has to be bought for five karma per point. (Or the max is just four?)
Post chargen the treatment changes a little.- Attribute A's maximum is equal to 6 + initiate grade and can be raised with karma as normal. (new rating * 5)
- Attribute B's maximum is tied to A's current rating - 2. It can be raised for five karma per point up to the maximum at any time.
- Raising Chi always grants a PP no matter if it is attribute A or B.
Assuming I am understanding this correctly:- This system basically solves the "limited karma at chargen/ mandatory negative quality" issue by limiting the amount of karma that can be spend to 20. In effect you either nerf MA's Mage or Adept ability to have their primary and secondary "attributes" at equal ratings.
- As written "strange 9 Magic and only 3 PP" situations still arise since I can decide to buy no PP at chargen to save karma. The system does limit this disparity to six points or less though.
- As a VM I can let my PP exceed my Chi and my Magic by initiating for PP. (At grade 3+, assuming the old rules of PP from initiations can exceed my magic do apply.) I cannot let my Magic catch up in a similar fashion as a MA. (This gives one chargen option the chance of being reversed while it denies the same opportunity to the other. Admittedly, there is little incentive to initiate for PP other than reversing that choice.)
- I have a major incentive to start with zero Chi or Magic rating, because the cost of qualities doubles after chargen while the cost of catching up with my secondary attribute does not.
- Arguably, I see a bit of a buff to magic focussed characters here because on a point for point basis, PPs seem more valuable than Magic. This is however heavily dependent on how the point is spend. (Comparing raising increased reflexes from two to three to another dice for all tests involving magic, I'd say increased reflexes wins especially when compared to investing the PP into increased attribute: reaction.)
Your system has a definitive strength in the fact that it allows for a character that has more PP than he has Magic, but that issue could be solved by simply changing "up to your magic rating" to "up to six". Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it seems pretty complicated in comparison to: "PPs are 5 karma or a spell slot, you can buy up to six" without much of a gain.
Personally, I think the fact that I have an incentive to start out with zero Magic/Chi is the prime weakness of the system, but it did shine a new light on the state of the MA and the "buy em or lose em" character of PPs. It does encourage "rounded" characters that are able to fill their intended role from the start over karma efficient optimized ones. I never looked at it from that perspective before. Thank you for that.
-
The idea behind this, and why I call it "Mystic Adept Hate" is simply because since they can get Power Points, and can do both sides of the magic spectrum with the exception of Projection (and even Astral Perception without spending a full Power Point on the power) some very vocal people think they should have a requirement foisted upon them that no one else has. This is quite simply ridiculous.
This makes me wonder if you even bother to read the opinions of the rest of the posters before posting things. For example, it was pointed out twice by me that a mystic adept has NEVER been able to have 6 points in Magic and Power Points. Additionally, it was pointed out a whole bunch of times that the 5 point karma cost is a design decision by the developers of the game. There's no "Mystic Adept Hate" as you erroneously call it. It's simply the reinforcement of game concepts that have been in balance for decades. The changes in this edition are more than sufficient to make Mystic Adapts very enticing as an archetype. Heaven forbid that a player is asked to make a tough choice.
-
The changes in this edition are more than sufficient to make Mystic Adapts very enticing as an archetype. Heaven forbid that a player is asked to make a tough choice.
and other than making up a complaint, no one really gripes about taking Negative Qualities, since they do help define a character for role playing purposes. (Well, I guess min-maxers might gripe about it, but their griping is pretty much on the absolute bottom of the list of my concerns.)
-
As written "strange 9 Magic and only 3 PP" situations still arise since I can decide to buy no PP at chargen to save karma. The system does limit this disparity to six points or less though.
I could've explained that better, I suppose. My point is that under the current system, no matter how many PP you've bought, your 'regular' Magic rating is used to determine the effectiveness of your adept powers (like Attribute Boost, Berserk and Elemental Body), adept metamagics (like Infusion, Qi Sculpt, and Supernatural Prowess), and the maximum amount of ranks you can get in any given power. Under my houserule, those things are limited by your Chi, which I feel makes more sense.
I have a major incentive to start with zero Chi or Magic rating, because the cost of qualities doubles after chargen while the cost of catching up with my secondary attribute does not.
Correct. Personally, although I agree with the current system's Karma cost for PP, I believe allowing you to get Power Points later should definitely be a houserule worth considering. I do agree, though, that it may be a good idea to force MAs and VMs to buy at least one rank in their secondary attribute in Step Seven (after Essense loss due to 'ware, and when you're supposed to buy PP as an MA under the current rules), but more than 1 shouldn't be necessary.
The idea behind this, and why I call it "Mystic Adept Hate" is simply because since they can get Power Points, and can do both sides of the magic spectrum with the exception of Projection (and even Astral Perception without spending a full Power Point on the power) some very vocal people think they should have a requirement foisted upon them that no one else has. This is quite simply ridiculous.
By "some very vocal people" I take it you mean "the people who wrote the rulebook"?
-
I do agree, though, that it may be a good idea to force MAs and VMs to buy at least one rank in their secondary attribute in Step Seven (after Essense loss due to 'ware, and when you're supposed to buy PP as an MA under the current rules), but more than 1 shouldn't be necessary.
That wasn't actually my intent. Though, I'm curious what you think this would achieve? Unless the point is free it basically turns MAs into the only character that has only 20 karma to distribute at chargen.
-
Honestly, if I were to radically change MA's anyway, I'd change the priority system for them as a whole to make them be more sensible for the new rules. For example, Priority A might be Magic 5 and Chi 2 (and vice versa). Although that would be a net 20 karma loss so probably some more fiddling required. Point is, you might as well redesign that part as well if you're changing that much.
-
Point is, you might as well redesign that part as well if you're changing that much.
I'll give it a go later. :)
-
While I do really like ZeConster's idea, here is one of my own, which is a bit smaller. How about, instead of optionally trading spells for PP, you just make a MA start with less spells and a few PP, and they can build from there to be the kind of MA they prefer. Let's try it out with the different priorities.
A: 7 spells, 3 PP
B: 5 spells, 2 PP
C: 2 spells, 1PP
The numbers are just me spitballing, but it does seem to solve the problems presented here, and I think it makes more sense anyway.
-
While I do really like ZeConster's idea, here is one of my own, which is a bit smaller. How about, instead of optionally trading spells for PP, you just make a MA start with less spells and a few PP, and they can build from there to be the kind of MA they prefer. Let's try it out with the different priorities.
A: 7 spells, 3 PP
B: 5 spells, 2 PP
C: 2 spells, 1PP
The numbers are just me spitballing, but it does seem to solve the problems presented here, and I think it makes more sense anyway.
Personally, I feel this has the least impact on the design of the game and is one of the better ideas. No need for custom house-math, ring around the rule or any of that mess. Just -ploop- there it is. Good job DRacain! I will be instituting this in my future games, methinks.
-
While I do really like ZeConster's idea, here is one of my own, which is a bit smaller. How about, instead of optionally trading spells for PP, you just make a MA start with less spells and a few PP, and they can build from there to be the kind of MA they prefer. Let's try it out with the different priorities.
A: 7 spells, 3 PP
B: 5 spells, 2 PP
C: 2 spells, 1PP
The numbers are just me spitballing, but it does seem to solve the problems presented here, and I think it makes more sense anyway.
7+3 = 10 Same as allowing Spell Substitution that was suggested above.
5+2 = 7 Same as allowing Spell Substitution that was suggested above.
2+1 = 3 ..... Only 3 instead of 5, Why is Magic-C Penalized? Or why were the other 2 not penalized.
-
Honestly, if I were to radically change MA's anyway, I'd change the priority system for them as a whole to make them be more sensible for the new rules. For example, Priority A might be Magic 5 and Chi 2 (and vice versa). Although that would be a net 20 karma loss so probably some more fiddling required. Point is, you might as well redesign that part as well if you're changing that much.
I just boosted magic rating given at priorities by 50% round down. Split between 2 magic attributes. One for adepts one for magic. Initiation raises both limits. Pick Metamagic or adept power as normal. You buy up each attribute separately. So a 6/3 split would need 20 karma to raise the 3 and woukdnt need to initiate. The 6 would take 35 and would need a initiation. There is no buy for 5 karma thing at char gen.