Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Beaumis on <10-09-14/1517:58>
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The concealability modifiers table table in P. 420 CRB lists bullpup assault rifles at +4 and "normal" assault rifles at +6. However, the CRB only lists two weapons as bullpup, the FN P93 Praetor SMG and ArmTech MLG-12 grenade launcher. Run & Gun has only one weapon, the Ontario Arms Equalizer mention the term "bullpup". Judging from the art of this and previous editions (both in german and english books) the following assault rifles would quality as bullpup:
- FN HAR (German CRB)
- Ares HVAR (RnG)
- HK XM30 (RnG)
- Nissan Optimum II(RnG)
How do other tables play this? Do you just ingore the bullpup assault rifles entry on the table and consider all ARs +6 or do you go by each individual gun and make a judgement call? And if so, based on what?
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Quite honestly, I've never looked that deeply at the concealability table. I've never had an issue with just using the +6 modifier for all assault rifles. But if someone at one of my tables brings it up, then sure I'd give the +4 for the rifles that look bulpup as you specified.
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Same here. At my table, when it is assault rifle time, that means its rock and roll time! No one has ever tried to hide an assault rifle during rock and roll time. That's what SMGs and Machine Pistols are for
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I can agree here as well. Hell, most people, even the stealthy ones, don't even have Palming as a skill at our table. People rock concealable holsters with extra concealable outfits for a reason, so that the little Pistols, Machine Pistols, and SMGs can go fairly unnoticed without a whole lot of hassle for tests. I don't think I've seen someone try to hide an Assault Rifle, Sniper Rifle, Shotgun, or Launcher at our table, and I suppose if they did the test would come into play. It doesn't show up often though, so I never really thought about it. I guess I agree with Namikaze, if it happened, then I don't see much of an issue with it. I would still wish them good luck trying to hide an Assault Rifle in their jacket.
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Yeah, unless this was being hidden on a large ork or troll I'd probably stick with the idea that it's nigh-impossible to hide something as large as that. I haven't had it tried as yet though!
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I can agree here as well. Hell, most people, even the stealthy ones, don't even have Palming as a skill at our table. People rock concealable holsters with extra concealable outfits for a reason, so that the little Pistols, Machine Pistols, and SMGs can go fairly unnoticed without a whole lot of hassle for tests. I don't think I've seen someone try to hide an Assault Rifle, Sniper Rifle, Shotgun, or Launcher at our table, and I suppose if they did the test would come into play. It doesn't show up often though, so I never really thought about it. I guess I agree with Namikaze, if it happened, then I don't see much of an issue with it. I would still wish them good luck trying to hide an Assault Rifle in their jacket.
Who said they were hiding it in their jacket? :o
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Interesting. Thanks for the input so far. My table has used the concealment table as an indicator for size in lack of any other information. The difference between bullpup and "normal" rifles is also the line we have drawn between "fits in a large backpack" and "needs a sports bag" or something similar. The ARs are generally kept in cars and bags but given how available and not forbidden quite a few of them are, I was curious how other tables played them.
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I can agree here as well. Hell, most people, even the stealthy ones, don't even have Palming as a skill at our table. People rock concealable holsters with extra concealable outfits for a reason, so that the little Pistols, Machine Pistols, and SMGs can go fairly unnoticed without a whole lot of hassle for tests. I don't think I've seen someone try to hide an Assault Rifle, Sniper Rifle, Shotgun, or Launcher at our table, and I suppose if they did the test would come into play. It doesn't show up often though, so I never really thought about it. I guess I agree with Namikaze, if it happened, then I don't see much of an issue with it. I would still wish them good luck trying to hide an Assault Rifle in their jacket.
Who said they were hiding it in their jacket? :o
"Is that an assault rifle in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?" Winked the elf seductively...
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Who said they were hiding it in their jacket? :o
We always assumed it was hiding in clothing. If you have a bag that is big enough to completely obscure the form of a weapon, then the weapon isn't noticeable. If someone is suspicious, they don't look at your bag or feel it, they open it and take a look around. We never have a test if that happens at our table, because we assume the person checking your bag isn't blind that a 3 foot or longer gun is sitting in your bag. We also assume that they don't just look around, they actually move stuff to make sure there aren't any hidden pockets or anything. Then again, it might be different at other tables, but that's how we have always played it.
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That's what I get for trying to be subtle. :-X
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That's what I get for trying to be subtle. :-X
Sutle *
8-bit no understand nooances of speech.
Seriously though, that went way over my head. My bad.
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Hey, if every joke worked I could quit my day job. :P
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bullpup assault rifles with short barrels can get almost as short as many SMGs
Just sayin'.
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bullpup assault rifles with short barrels can get almost as short as many SMGs
Just sayin'.
You're absolutely right. Unfortunately, short barrels aren't an option in SR right now. :(
I'd love to see more in the way of modifications, like changing the chamber of the gun, lengthening or shortening the barrel, retrofitting the firing mechanisms, etc.
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If SR3's Cannon Companion and SR4's Arsenal is anything to go by, weapon mods like short and long barrels are just a sourcebook away.
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If SR3's Cannon Companion and SR4's Arsenal is anything to go by, weapon mods like short and long barrels are just a sourcebook away.
Possibly. But with RnG out and no customization rules, it is unlikely they will come out soon.... i think part of the problem was they got a LOT of flack over some of the rules for weapon customization, and might have said "screw it" until they get all the baseline books out....
Then they might revisit weapon mods again.
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Possibly. But with RnG out and no customization rules, it is unlikely they will come out soon..
Time for another pdf, methinks ;)
HougH!
Medicineman
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Pretty sure when the Ares Alpha was introduced back in 2E it was a bullpup as well. Though I don't think its mentioned in the 5E fluff.
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Was that a supplement book to 2E...?
The only assault rifles in 2nd (base rule book) was FN HAR and AK-97.
3rd (base rule book) had the same assault rifles as 2nd, but also introduced the AK-98.
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The Alpha was introduced in Fields of Fire, SR3's military sourcebook.
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The Alpha was introduced in Fields of Fire, SR3's military sourcebook.
SR2. It came out 1/2 a decade before SR3 was released.
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Pic of the AA on this forum boards 1/2 way down.
http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/more-popular-weapon-designs-more-ergonomic-more-practical.286320/page-73
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SR2. It came out 1/2 a decade before SR3 was released.
I don't remember it being in 2nd Edition, the first Edition of Shadowrun I played. I just dug out my 2nd Edition core book and the Street Samurai Catalog, and I can't find it in either of those. Source?
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SR2. It came out 1/2 a decade before SR3 was released.
I don't remember it being in 2nd Edition, the first Edition of Shadowrun I played. I just dug out my 2nd Edition core book and the Street Samurai Catalog, and I can't find it in either of those. Source?
Fields of Fire is the book, the original "Merc" book, he mentioned it being a SR3 sourcebook but its SR2 as I mentioned.
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SR2. It came out 1/2 a decade before SR3 was released.
I don't remember it being in 2nd Edition, the first Edition of Shadowrun I played. I just dug out my 2nd Edition core book and the Street Samurai Catalog, and I can't find it in either of those. Source?
Could've sworn Street Samurai Catalog was 1st Edition... ???
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Could've sworn Street Samurai Catalog was 1st Edition... ???
SSC was 1st & 2nd both. Didn't change names till 3rd, same with Grimoire was still Grimoire, etc etc.
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Pic of the AA on this forum boards 1/2 way down.
(http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h197/Lathi/Shadowrun/ares_alpha.gif)
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SR2. It came out 1/2 a decade before SR3 was released.
I don't remember it being in 2nd Edition, the first Edition of Shadowrun I played. I just dug out my 2nd Edition core book and the Street Samurai Catalog, and I can't find it in either of those. Source?
Fields of Fire is the book, the original "Merc" book, he mentioned it being a SR3 sourcebook but its SR2 as I mentioned.
Ah, I see. Thank you.
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Pretty sure when the Ares Alpha was introduced back in 2E it was a bullpup as well. Though I don't think its mentioned in the 5E fluff.
We have contradicting illustrations for the 5e version. In the Gear Cards (Series 1) the Alpha is shown as a standard layout (card 29). In the cards included with the Digital Tools Box - Alphaware content it is a bullpup once again (card 39).
Would be nice if there was an official response.
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Is the 2 points of concealability really a big deal? Just GM fiat it and move along.
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Even Bullpup it isn't very concealable.
Its like the short barreled shotgun, its +4 v/s +6 but that is still a bonus to a perception test, so its likely to be seen.
That it also has a GL attached to it makes me think it should honestly have a penalty to it, not a bonus.
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You forget other modifiers to the concealability, such as armor coats that cover more and things along those lines. An underbarrel grenade launcher, depending on how it's mounted, wouldn't really affect concealabiity, by the way, provided it doesn't put the silhouette past the current one made by the stock/grip.
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You forget other modifiers to the concealability, such as armor coats that cover more and things along those lines. An underbarrel grenade launcher, depending on how it's mounted, wouldn't really affect concealabiity, by the way, provided it doesn't put the silhouette past the current one made by the stock/grip.
I'm not forgetting them. I'm saying that unless the person has no perception skill &/or crap Intuition. Your still likely to be seen.
Older editions all gave you a penalty for adding a GL.
For that matter the AK98 used to be unconcealable while the 97 at least had a small chance at concealment.
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Tbh, I'd like to see some concealibilty mods depending on meta size. An ar is going to be much easier to hide on a frame as large as a trolls, but significantly harder to hide on a dwarf.
A troll wearing a lined coat at night with a bit of palming skill should be ok unless someone good is really looking for it IMHO.
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Tbh, I'd like to see some concealibilty mods depending on meta size. An ar is going to be much easier to hide on a frame as large as a trolls, but significantly harder to hide on a dwarf.
A troll wearing a lined coat at night with a bit of palming skill should be ok unless someone good is really looking for it IMHO.
Is that a Human adapted AR on the Troll? or a Troll adapted weapon???
Size is only relative to size. An assault Rifle made for a troll to fire comfortably is going to be just as big as an Assault Rifle compared to a human....
Basically, it all comes out in the wash.
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Barrel length and stock shouldn't need to change too much, grips and trigger probably major areas of modification for troll. Overall frame of weapon should stay similar. Heavy pistol isn't going to end up the size of an SMG after all, would just need a new grip and such.
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Barrel length and stock shouldn't need to change too much, grips and trigger probably major areas of modification for troll. Overall frame of weapon should stay similar. Heavy pistol isn't going to end up the size of an SMG after all, would just need a new grip and such.
Things get a little more complex on a rifle however.
Distance between hands. Size of hands, the need for moving parts, balance, etc.
Don't forget, its a game. K.I.S.S.
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so in core there is possible one bullpup assault rifle
...but in turn it have a grenade launcher?
basically, if you are using core weapons then all assault rifles end up at +6.
no need to over-think things beyond that it seems :)
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The FN HAR is in the core rules and has an image in the german book that makes it a bullpup rifle. Past editions also have it as a bullpup.
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The FN HAR is in the core rules and has an image in the german book that makes it a bullpup rifle. Past editions also have it as a bullpup.
Now you made me google pictutures of SR guns :)
HK G38 is a bullpup as well?
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n255/Sir_Robin_2006/Shadowrun/My_Shadowrun_Gun_Collection_1_by_biometal79.jpg)
1 ) Cavalier Scout - semiautomatic hold-out pistol
2 ) Walther Palm Pistol - double barreled hold-out
3 ) Derringer - double barreled hold-out
4 ) Reacor Sting - "lemon-squeezer" type hold-out
5/6 ) Glock 38C/Contura Series - "fashionable" light pistols
7 ) Ares Light Fire 70 - super-light semi-auto
8 ) Beretta 101-T - light semi-auto
9 ) Colt Manhunter - heavy semi-auto pistol w/ laser sight
10 ) Savalette Guardian - heavy select-fire pistol
11 ) Ares Predator - heavy semi-auto pistol
12 ) Ares Predator II - heavy semi-auto pistol w/ smartlink
13 ) Ruger Super Warhawk - heavy single action revolver
14 ) Ceska Black Scorpion - machine pistol
15 ) Ares Crusader - machine pistol
16 ) Ingram Smartgun - smartlinked SMG
17 ) HK 225 TX - compact SMG w/ laser sight
18 ) Winchester Widow Maker - sawn-off shotgun
19 ) Remington Roomsweeper - compact autoloading shotgun pistol
20 ) Savalette Penetrator - large-caliber armor-piercing weapon for close range combat
21 ) HK 227-S - silenced SMG w/ laser sight
22 ) HK 227 - recoil-compensated SMG w/ laser sight
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n255/Sir_Robin_2006/Shadowrun/My_SR_Gun_Collection_part_2_by_biometal79.jpg)
1 ) Colt M22A2 - complete assault weapon system
2 ) Colt M23 - basically stripped down M22A2 assault rifle
3 ) HK G38 - state-of-the-art modular assault rifle
4 ) FN HAR - bullpup assault rifle w/ laser sight
5 ) Franchi SPAS 22 - tube-fed assault shotgun w/ smartlink
6 ) Mossberg CMDT - clip-fed assault shotgun w/ laser sight
7 ) Defiance T-250 - semi-auto shotgun
8 ) Remington 750 - semi-automatic hunting/sport rifle
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The whole bullpup thing is silly. A bullpup design doesn't actually adjust the silhouette of most rifles very much at all. Giving a bonus to concealability just seems like it's a slippery slope of pedantic arguments - as this thread can show. Instead, just do away with the difference in concealability and make all assault rifles +6. Done, simple.
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Are you sure that is the correct pic for the FN-HAR?
It looks NOTHING like the pic in SR1 CRB which is much closer looking to a traditional FN-FAL used today.
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No
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Biometal79's Images are fanart as far as I know. I've browsed his deviant art page a few times. (He's got some nice guns.) I could have sword the 3rd edition had a similar picture to his though, but I can't find it. Google image search finds several sources that are all relatively similar and range quite a few years back, so my search-fu may just be weak. Tarislar is right though, 1st and 2nd have the FN HAR as basically the FN FAL. I generally discount 4th when it comes to gun images because of the weird, generic and passionless style of that edition. (My subjective opinion of course.) I don't own the german book, but my GM does and there is an Image of the FN HAR in there that looks a lot like Biometal79's. I'll see if I can take a picture next time we play.
Anyway, I'd like to point out that, to me, the major point is not so much the concealment value, which is nice but the distinction between +4 and +6 is really "easy to detect" and "easier", but the size. Bullpup rifles stand a chance to fit into a normal to large sized backpack while standard ARs need something sports bag sized. Backpacks generally leave your hands free and are less conspicuous because they are that much more common. (sports bags are usually moved from car to building and back, backpacks are more of a walking around container.)
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Tarislar is right though, 1st and 2nd have the FN HAR as basically the FN FAL. I generally discount 4th when it comes to gun images because of the weird, generic and passionless style of that edition.
With that section under the barrel, combined with Bullpup style, I'd almost say that could be a variation of the Ares-Alpha picture updated for 4E style drawing.
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Where is that G23, because that's a nice gun and I want one