Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: PiDub314 on <10-11-14/1737:09>
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Pg451-452 says that a standard mount can fit an assault rifle-sized or smaller weapon. It seems obvious that a machine gun, assault cannon, grenade/missile/rocket launcher are all not smaller than an assault rifle. But what about sniper/hunting rifles and shotguns? Are they considered larger and need a heavy weapon mount?
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General assumption is they are listed in order of size, roughly supported by concealment modifiers. So yes.
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Shotguns or sniper rifles don't need heavy weapon mounts.
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Shotguns or sniper rifles don't need heavy weapon mounts.
They do actually.
Standard weapon mounts may hold any assault rifle or smaller-sized weapon and 250 rounds of ammo. Heavy weapon mounts count as two weapon mounts and can hold any weapon and up to 500 rounds of belted ammo or up to Body rockets/missiles.
Considering Assault Rifles are operated with the Automatics skill and Shotguns and Sniper Rifles with the Longarms skill, I would say that Shotguns and Sniper Rifles are larger than assault rifles.
Here's the Automatics skill. Bolded Emphasis is mine.
The Automatics skill covers a specific subset of firearms larger than handheld pistols but smaller than rifles. This category includes submachine guns and other fully automatic carbines.
Here's the Longarms skill. Bolded Emphasis is mine.
The Longarms skill is for firing extended-barrel weapons such as sporting rifles and sniper rifles. This grouping also includes weapons like shotguns that are designed to be braced against the shoulder.
Sniper Rifles have longer barrels and are larger than Assault Rifles. Shotguns may be similar length to Assault Rifles, but they require a lot more mass to keep them under control. I would say that Shotguns are larger in most situations. The fact that shotguns are Longarms seems to imply to me that they are larger than Assault Rifles, which means they need a Heavy Weapon Mount.
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Yay, this argument again.
Rigger 5 can't get here soon enough.
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Core Rule book page 420
Standard weapon mounts may hold any assault rifle or smaller-sized weapon and 250 rounds of ammo.
+6 Katana, monosword, shotgun, assault rifle, sport rifle, crossbow
+8 Sniper rifle, bow, grenade launcher, medium drone
Seems RAW shotguns are the same size as assault rifles. Though sniper rifles do require a heavy weapon mount as they are 2 dice harder to hide due to size.
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Those are poor assumptions. You need a Heavy Weapon mount for any weapon that is classified under the Heavy Weapon skill. Machine guns, rockets, MLRS, assault cannons, etc
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Those are poor assumptions. You need a Heavy Weapon mount for any weapon that is classified under the Heavy Weapon skill. Machine guns, rockets, MLRS, assault cannons, etc
They're not poor assumptions at all. In fact, your assertion that the Heavy Weapon mount determination is based on a skill is completely false.
Standard weapon mounts may hold any assault rifle or smaller-sized weapon and 250 rounds of ammo. Heavy weapon mounts count as two weapon mounts and can hold any weapon and up to 500 rounds of belted ammo or up to Body rockets/missiles.
Bolded for emphasis. The determining factor is not a skill, but rather size. Since concealability is the only factor we have for determining the relative size of two similar objects, it is completely logical to use the concealability chart to determine what goes into a standard weapon mount and what goes into a heavy weapon mount.
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All right, the point is made for shotguns, but not for Sniper Rifles. That's also a poor assumption that Heavy Weapon Mounts only include those under the heavy weapon skill. Just because they share a name doesn't mean that is the be all end all. I mean, I don't think I've seen an Assault Rifle in real life, but I can tell you Sporting Rifles and Sniper Rifles are really freaking long. I'm almost certain that they are larger than an Assault Rifle. I mean, Shotguns don't have much range in SR5 as is, so it's not a problem on a standard mount, but Sniper Rifles are a little ridiculous in my mind. Allowing an army of drones who can snipe anything from 500 meters away at character creation seems easily game breaking to me. If the factor is size, then Rifles are, in pretty much any way I can think of it, larger than Assault Rifles. There may be Assault Rifles that are as large as Sniper Rifles, but those are the exception, I think, rather than the norm. But hey, I have no idea, so maybe I'm wrong.
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But hey, I have no idea, so maybe I'm wrong.
You're not wrong, 8-bit. The thing is that most sniper rifles have nothing to make them smaller. A LOT of assault rifles have collapsable stocks, or a bulpup configuration, which gives them substantially smaller size than a fully-extended rifle. And most assault rifles are actually carbines, which are naturally shorter to begin with. For instance, the M24, which is the assigned sniper rifle for the US Army, is between 43 and 46 inches long (there are variants on the basic M24 that make changes). The M4 carbine, which is the standard assault rifle used by the US Army, is at most 33 inches long. So you're looking at somewhere close to a foot of difference in length alone.
Let's go with a different country's weaponry for completeness. The AK-47 is the most commonly used assault rifle in the world, hands down. It measures about 33 inches in length as well. There are going to be variations because there are a billion knock-offs out there, but the basic design is going to have it about the same length. The SVD, the commonly-seen Russian sniper rifle, measures 35 inches with a collapsed stock (only on the SVDS) but realistically measures between 44 and 48 inches in length.
Sniper rifles ARE longer and more ungainly than assault rifles. That's a fact that is definitely reflected in the concealability of the weapons. And that's also why a sniper rifle does not fit the definition of "assault rifle or smaller-sized weapon" for a standard weapon mount. I really hope we can finally put this to bed now.
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Concealment basically notes Longarms >= Assault Rifles, though Concealment is not always just about size. Then we got automatics stating they're smaller than rifles, and the name "Longarms". All in all there is a lot of support to that the order in which the different Firearms are listed in the gear chapter, is pretty much the order of size (tasers aside). And then we can find the following info on wikipedia, "Shotguns generally have longer barrels than modern rifles." So there's no real support that the Longarms would not all be longer than assault rifles and thus Heavy Weapon Mount.
Not that Rigger V would make this more clear, since we had the same debate in previous editions and Arsenal did not make it more clear as far as I recall.
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SR4A and Arsenal both state that a normal sized weapon mount can hold an LMG size or smaller, while reinforced mounts can hold firearms larger than an LMG.
Seems the developers changed their minds on this in SR5 and went with an Assault Rifle instead of an LMG as the baseline.
I'd personally agree with 8-bit and Michael Chandra on this one; the text for the Automatics and Longarms skills clearly denote size, whereas it is not clear to me that the concealability table is entirely based on size and might account for other factors as well as size.
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whereas it is not clear to me that the concealability table is entirely based on size and might account for other factors as well as size.
what other factor could there be besides size? Using the argument "They are Called longarms for a reason is no better than saying heavy weapons mounts are only for things using the heavy weapons skill. The only gauge we have RAW is the concealment table. Anything else is just speculation till a more official source weighs in
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Clumsiness, dimensions. But with firearms you tend not to go "it's smaller BUT tougher to conceal".
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whereas it is not clear to me that the concealability table is entirely based on size and might account for other factors as well as size.
what other factor could there be besides size? Using the argument "They are Called longarms for a reason is no better than saying heavy weapons mounts are only for things using the heavy weapons skill. The only gauge we have RAW is the concealment table. Anything else is just speculation till a more official source weighs in
true, in absence of hard rules, we'll have to fall back on a mix of common sense and GM's call.
There are after all, short shotguns like the T-250 that could have an argument made in their favour and the weapon mount rules are still pretty damn vague about whether or not their ammo capacity applies to non-belt-fed weapons.
Unfortunately, until we either get errata or expanded rules on weapon mounts, this is still going to continue to be a headache by RAW.
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Until someone official explicitly states that shotguns and sniper rifles require a heavy weapon mount I'm not buying it. Size <> Concealability.
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Watch this space, I presume.
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=18293.msg325421#msg325421
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Until someone official explicitly states that shotguns and sniper rifles require a heavy weapon mount I'm not buying it. Size <> Concealability.
How about the quotes I gave for actual real-world examples of sniper rifles vs. assault rifles? Size == size, yes?
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Until someone official explicitly states that shotguns and sniper rifles require a heavy weapon mount I'm not buying it. Size <> Concealability.
How about the quotes I gave for actual real-world examples of sniper rifles vs. assault rifles? Size == size, yes?
That works for some sniper-rifles, but not really well for shotguns. A short Defiance T-250 should be mountable with a normal mount at the least.
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Almost every shotgun made is smaller than a sniper rifle. Most of them are built for close quarters, which would make them on-length with carbines and assault rifles. For example, the Benelli M4 is 38 inches long.
But yes, we could use some clarification on this, as individual models of all weapons will vary in size. Which is why I think concealability is the best way to go - it definitely takes size into consideration, and really is the only facet of the game in which size matters. Giggity.
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Until someone official explicitly states that shotguns and sniper rifles require a heavy weapon mount I'm not buying it. Size <> Concealability.
How about the quotes I gave for actual real-world examples of sniper rifles vs. assault rifles? Size == size, yes?
Not necessarily. I have plenty of real world military background of my own to draw on. For example, your average shotgun is about the same weight as an assault rifle and has similar dimensions except that they will typically be a few inches longer in the barrel. If you expect to have me buy that a shotgun must use a heavy weapon mount? I'm sorry I just don't buy it. A sniper rifle is also going to have similar weight and dimensions except for length and I don't necessarily see that requires the necessity of a heavy mount there either. Length is but one dimension to measure by. Measure by a different method (width, depth, mass or volume) and you could end up with a different result.
There is a extremely simple method to determine what weapon goes on what mount and that is by putting heavy weapons on heavy weapon mounts and putting all other weapons on standard mounts. I just don't see justification in the rules for making it more complicated than that.
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Not necessarily. I have plenty of real world military background of my own to draw on. For example, your average shotgun is about the same weight as an assault rifle and has similar dimensions except that they will typically be a few inches longer in the barrel. If you expect to have me buy that a shotgun must use a heavy weapon mount? I'm sorry I just don't buy it. A sniper rifle is also going to have similar weight and dimensions except for length and I don't necessarily see that requires the necessity of a heavy mount there either. Length is but one dimension to measure by. Measure by a different method (width, depth, mass or volume) and you could end up with a different result.
There is a extremely simple method to determine what weapon goes on what mount and that is by putting heavy weapons on heavy weapon mounts and putting all other weapons on standard mounts. I just don't see justification in the rules for making it more complicated than that.
Exactly my point
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Not necessarily. I have plenty of real world military background of my own to draw on. For example, your average shotgun is about the same weight as an assault rifle and has similar dimensions except that they will typically be a few inches longer in the barrel.
Which I stated.
If you expect to have me buy that a shotgun must use a heavy weapon mount? I'm sorry I just don't buy it.
Actually, I'm saying that a shotgun goes into a standard mount - not sure why you think otherwise.
A sniper rifle is also going to have similar weight and dimensions except for length and I don't necessarily see that requires the necessity of a heavy mount there either.
Well, if you consider 10 inches and 2 or 3 pounds to be insignificant, then your military experience may not have involved ruck marches.
Length is but one dimension to measure by. Measure by a different method (width, depth, mass or volume) and you could end up with a different result.
Except that when all other things are the same, or similar enough (and they're not terribly far off from each other, with a few exceptions for high-caliber sniper rifles like a Barrett) length is still wildly different between shotguns and sniper rifles. And between assault rifles and sniper rifles. But not between shotguns and assault rifles, as they're about the same size. Again, I talked about this part.
There is a extremely simple method to determine what weapon goes on what mount and that is by putting heavy weapons on heavy weapon mounts and putting all other weapons on standard mounts. I just don't see justification in the rules for making it more complicated than that.
You could start with the rules, which state that the difference is that a standard mount holds "assault rifle or smaller-sized weapon". Since the rules state that size is the determining factor, and since most of the other factors of size are roughly the same (again, with the rare exception) length is the only factor that is wildly different.
I've stated all this like... four times now. The only reason for your arguments are because either you didn't read the rest of the posts in this thread, or you're trying to keep an argument going unnecessarily.
Fact: sniper rifles are longer and generally a little heavier than assault rifles.
Fact: shotguns are very nearly the same length and weight of an assault rifle.
Fact: the rules state to go by size when determining what can go on what mounting system.
Fact: unless we hear otherwise, the only logical outcome of the "assault rifle or smaller-sized weapon" quote is that a heavy mount can mount any weapon, including all heavy weapons and sniper rifles. A standard mount can hold anything BUT a sniper rifle or a heavy weapon.
Exactly my point
Except that your "point" flies in the face of the rules completely. It might be that it's simpler to say "heavy weapon == heavy mount." But the book doesn't say that, which means it's a house rule at best. If you guys want to talk about a house rule, then by all means go ahead. Those of us that play the game by the rules will have to politely ask that you move your discussion to a house rule thread instead. It's confusing the question that the OP and other people might have about what the book actually says.
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A sniper rifle is also going to have similar weight and dimensions except for length and I don't necessarily see that requires the necessity of a heavy mount there either.
Well, if you consider 10 inches and 2 or 3 pounds to be insignificant, then your military experience may not have involved ruck marches.
Compared to the size and mass of the drone capable of carrying one, I consider it to pretty insignificant as a matter of fact. And when you are humping at 60+ lb ruck, no I don't think a couple pounds either way are going to make a difference.
Length is but one dimension to measure by. Measure by a different method (width, depth, mass or volume) and you could end up with a different result.
Except that when all other things are the same, or similar enough (and they're not terribly far off from each other, with a few exceptions for high-caliber sniper rifles like a Barrett) length is still wildly different between shotguns and sniper rifles. And between assault rifles and sniper rifles. But not between shotguns and assault rifles, as they're about the same size. Again, I talked about this part.
And that is my point. Any man portable weapon is going to be similar enough in size that, when mounted on a drone, it just isn't worth mentioning the difference. Especially when a true squad portable weapon such as an M-60 is going to be 8-10 lbs heavier than most sniper rifles. (Anti-material rifles such as the M-99 would be an exception though in game terms that would be more of an assault cannon than sniper rifle IMO.)
There is a extremely simple method to determine what weapon goes on what mount and that is by putting heavy weapons on heavy weapon mounts and putting all other weapons on standard mounts. I just don't see justification in the rules for making it more complicated than that.
You could start with the rules, which state that the difference is that a standard mount holds "assault rifle or smaller-sized weapon". Since the rules state that size is the determining factor, and since most of the other factors of size are roughly the same (again, with the rare exception) length is the only factor that is wildly different.
Again, IMO that line is more fluff than rule. It does not fall in line with the general classification of all weapon systems in general as put forth in the game. It does not even fall in line with the rather lax attitude the game has towards encumbrance in general.
pg. 420 As long as the players are reasonable and don’t perpetually carry around every firearm and toaster in creation (with enough ammo and bread to operate them both continuously), weights and encumbrance aren't important.
I've stated all this like... four times now. The only reason for your arguments are because either you didn't read the rest of the posts in this thread, or you're trying to keep an argument going unnecessarily.
Fact: sniper rifles are longer and generally a little heavier than assault rifles.
Fact: shotguns are very nearly the same length and weight of an assault rifle.
Fact: the rules state to go by size when determining what can go on what mounting system.
Fact: unless we hear otherwise, the only logical outcome of the "assault rifle or smaller-sized weapon" quote is that a heavy mount can mount any weapon, including all heavy weapons and sniper rifles. A standard mount can hold anything BUT a sniper rifle or a heavy weapon.
I did not ignore your posts though I'll concede I messed up referencing shotguns (though look up the size of an AA-12!) but I disagree thoroughly with your conclusions. No where in the book is there adequate coverage regarding how to determine size of equipment regardless of how you measure it and to then place one line (poorly write like so many other lines in this book) and expect it to be the end of the subject on the matter? No, I'm afraid not.
Now it is my intent to be civil here and I am not attempting to aggravate you or anyone else. I have stated my position on the subject and I see nothing you have said that changes my mind. I also feel you are not making the same attempt to be civil so this will be my last word on the subject barring an official statement. I believe someone posted the question in the missions FAQ update thread so we may actually get an answer sooner or later.
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Oh for the good ole days when mounts were split at the LMG to MMG barrier.
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Barrel length really should not be used as a determining factor on required mount type. They stick out of the firing port anyway, some will just stick out further than others.
What should matter is the stuff that HAS to be inside the turret. Firing mechanisms, ammo feeds, etc. What actually needs a more heavy duty reinforced mount structure?
I can't see shotguns or sniper rifles needing any heavier support structure than an assault rifle would.
Machineguns, launchers, etc I can definately see needing it, save for perhaps LMGs as those are often not that much bulkier than many battle rifles. But SR5 put the cut off at assault rifles. Okay, not that big a deal.
Simplest ruling would be "heavy weapons go in heavy weapon mounts, everything else fits un regular mounts."
I like simple.
-k
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Best option until Rigger 5 comes out is to go by GM fiat.
As my group's GM, personally I go by Heavy Weapons needing to go on a Heavy Mount, everything else on a Standard Mount. With some exceptions for weapons like the Terracotta Arms AM-47, Barret Model 122, and Auto-Assault (AA) 16.
(Damn, it's been awhile since I posted anything on this forum...)
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I can't see shotguns or sniper rifles needing any heavier support structure than an assault rifle would.
Machineguns, launchers, etc I can definately see needing it, save for perhaps LMGs as those are often not that much bulkier than many battle rifles. But SR5 put the cut off at assault rifles. Okay, not that big a deal.
Simplest ruling would be "heavy weapons go in heavy weapon mounts, everything else fits un regular mounts."
I like simple.
Tend to agree. And some shotguns or rifles are going to have less kickback than an AR, for example. I don't think barrel length matters at all to how study a mount is needed, it's more about the need for the mount to not be damaged or even targeting greatly affected by recoil, the size needs of the ammo feed, etc.
Another example of terribly vague writing, unfortunately. One should not feel the need to compare real-world guns in order to properly interpret a game rule.
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It say:
"any assault rifle or smaller-sized weapon"
It doesn't say:
"any non-heavy weapon"
At least it is clear that it can fit assault rifles :)
Then it depend on your reading.
Either they mean "any assault rifle-sized or smaller than assault rifle-sized weapon" or they mean "any assault rifle or any weapon that is classed as a smaller-sized weapon".
In either case it probably come down to a GM call...
But if the author had the intention that you could fit a long barrel sniper rifle in a standard mount and I would have been that author then I would have written "Any non-heavy weapon". As it is currently written my interpretation is that you can fit any of the small-sized weapons you find in the pistol skill, any of the medium sized weapons you find in the automatics skill (all the way up and including assault rifles) plus possible shotguns of the long barrel weapons that fit in under the longarm skill.
- But that you would need a heavy mount for really long range weapons such as light machine guns and sniper rifles.
Pistol (small weapons)
Automatics (medium sized weapons)
Longarms (long barrel weapons + shotguns)
Heavy weapons (really big stuff)
(sure, it would have been more simple if they made the cut at heavy weapons -- and you can still house rule it at that -- but the author did choose to make the cut at assault rifles.... you will have a really hard time convincing me that by RAW a sniper rifle would be "smaller in size" than an assault rifle or that a sniper rifle would be considered a "small-sized weapon").
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Something I find funny is that there's the Smart Firing Platform, which is basically an immobile shooting drone (with a much higher availability than a Doberman, at that). Said platform (a tripod with some kit to allow it to move and a smart-link/computer) has no limits on what can be put on it.
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There is a difference between this drone:
SR5 p. 466 Aztechnology Crawler
This small crawler can easily handle stairs and other obstacles. Designed to operate as a remote snooper in rough rural or urban terrain....
That probably look something like this:
(http://images-cdn.perfectworld.com/www/08/73/087388a98253f70d04f0e6c25d88ce1f1376424543.jpg)
And this:
SR5 p. 433 Smart firing platform
This is a non-mobile robotic tripod equipped with a remote control pivot that allows for a 180-degree firing arc and a 60-degree inclination.
That probably look something like this:
(http://tf3dm.com/imgd/l57809-sentry-gun-93815.jpg)
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Smart Firing Platform requires the weapon to have an underbarrel mount, which in and of itself imposes restrictions. No SMGs, for instance, though you can use Heavy Machine Guns on them. Weird, I agree.
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To be honest, putting a submachine gun on-top of a full-sized tripod with added matrix connection and sensor module (aka smartgun) would be a bit weird.
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Can't seem to figure out why so many disagree with Namikaze. He's got solid points, the facts to support him, and he is working with the game, isn't he? XD
Oh btw, I just assumed you are a man, Nam. Is that a correct assumption?
Also I'd say that mount size is limited by the vehicle size. Sometimes you can't put it in a spot because there isn't enough space. When putting something atop a tripod the sky is the limit (or the room size).
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Can't seem to figure out why so many disagree with Namikaze. He's got solid points, the facts to support him, and he is working with the game, isn't he? XD
Oh btw, I just assumed you are a man, Nam. Is that a correct assumption?
Also I'd say that mount size is limited by the vehicle size. Sometimes you can't put it in a spot because there isn't enough space. When putting something atop a tripod the sky is the limit (or the room size).
If you check the this FAQ (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/living-campaign-discussion/october-2014-missions-faq-request-answers/)thread for Missions you will see (for Missions anyway) that heavy mounts are for heavy weapons. Hopefully once the next round of errata is eventually released for the core book (or the next edition of Shadowrun, whichever comes first) they will clarify it for the overall rule set as well.
I would point out that mount size IS limited by the size of the vehicle/drone. The BOD rating determines how many and what size mounts can be added aside from the special rule for Roto-drones.
Edit: I would add though, that as the GM it's up to you to decide how the rules will be interpreted. The "official" rules only truly matter when it comes to "official" games such as Missions. Of course, the only game I have access to right now is a Missions campaign so the distinction is pretty important to me but YMMV.