Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Namikaze on <10-14-14/1148:50>
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So we all know that when using a laser weapon, you need to have Exotic Ranged Weapon. However, what about when the laser is mounted? Does it use the same Exotic Ranged Weapon skill, or can Gunnery be used?
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By the letter of the rule, I believe Gunnery would be employed for all mounted weapons, even exotic ones. Some people have argued this makes the Gunnery skill too powerful. It doesn't bother me, honestly.
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+1 to gunnery.
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BRB, mounting lasers on all my drones...
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Ultimate burn everything drones - Laser + Flamethrower. Also known as a Halloweener drone.
To answer the actual question, I'm with Jack on this one. Even if it doesn't allow it by RAW (I think it does, but if it didn't), then I would say it's perfectly acceptable anyways. Gunnery basically covers firing a mounted weapon. You mount a weapon, you use Gunnery. You carry the thing around with you, it's not mounted, so you don't use Gunnery. That's how I always saw the Gunnery skill, which may be drastically oversimplifying it.
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I feel like mounted exotic weapons should give -1 on the gunnery roll if ya dont have the correct exotic skill to go with it, but i'd still make it gunnery.
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eh, tbh, if you fire everything from a mounted taser up to a HMG or missile launcher with the gunnery skill, i can't see why a laser requires a different skill.
I think in this setting, gunnery is usually used by riggers/drivers, where perhaps the software side of it does the hard hards of range finding and targetting which means you don't need the same level of skill as you would manually carrying, bracing and firing a physical weapon.
For a lot of gunnery tests, you'll be manipulating an AR/VR controller. computers process your input and tell the servos move the weapon. targetting software calibrates the lead/elevation/windage and you give the fire command via your controlls. to you as an AR/VR pilot, it doesn't really matter what type of gun it is your firing because the computers do all the hard yards.
Its how i handwaive it for AR/VR anyways, breaks down a bit when you get to jumping in i guess.
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Well, for the purposes of my game the character in question is mostly going to be doing this remotely via the Targeting Autosoft. So it's mostly just a thought exercise, but it's good to get everyone's feedback on this topic. Personally, I'm of the opinion that Gunnery should cover any mounted weapon - the difficulty of Gunnery is mostly in hitting a target while you are moving, just to cover the most common vehicle-mounted scenarios. A laser weapon definitely has different ballistics (as defined by the lovely term "non-ballistic projectile") so it would be different, but (IMO) the majority of the difficulty is acquired via the platform rather than the weapon.
I'd love to hear a dissenting opinion though, because I'm certain there's a lot of stuff we haven't covered yet in this topic.
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Well, just for the sake of discussion, even though I do actually agree, let's just say that I think it needs the Exotic Ranged Weapon Skill.
Here is my reasoning. Unlike other mounted weapons, lasers do not have recoil. While mounting the laser is different then carrying it around, there are really two main difficulties in firing a laser. The first are environmental conditions. You cannot change those, at least not normally. The second problem is that you need to hold a laser steady, much steadier than a normal weapon. Especially since you can spray a bunch of bullets everywhere with any other gun. Lasers require the proper technique in order to keep them steady enough to actually cause damage, rather than just being a shiny light. Gunnery covers the techniques of most firearms, even things like flamethrowers, since they all operate on the same basic level. Lasers require a much more demanding set of skills and training to handle and use properly, which Gunnery does not cover.
I'm all for having this discussion, since I'm curious as to how things will turn out.
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The mount holds the gun properly, so you're not having difficulty with "how do I hold this again?". While technically understanding the weapon should still be somewhat needed for a proper shot, this lands us in muddled confusing territory of an overly complex nature, much as this sentence.
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Aside from Exotic Ranged Weapons (p.131) you can default on any Combat Skill, so that could be brought up against using Lasers with Gunnery. You can always roll, even untrained.
But on the other hand there is an "Energy" Specialisation for Gunnery, which should very much support the use of Lasers :)
So I'd side with the "Gunnery-faction".
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The mount holds the gun properly, so you're not having difficulty with "how do I hold this again?". While technically understanding the weapon should still be somewhat needed for a proper shot, this lands us in muddled confusing territory of an overly complex nature, much as this sentence.
While the mount does hold the gun properly, it is meant to swivel 180 (might be 90, I could be forgetting) degrees. It depends on how quickly it swings back and forth, but I would think that a laser, which needs a couple of seconds of focus on the exact same spot to do anything, might be a little more difficult to land a "shot" with then a normal gun. A gun can aim at any part of a body and be there for a micro-second, the bullet doesn't need to focus for any period of time. For a laser, you need to hold your aim on one spot, most likely while moving, for at least a second, if not more. Am I understanding lasers improperly? I'm not sure how lasers work in SR5, so I'm using my rather limited knowledge of real world lasers.
@Lucean
I never even noticed there was an Energy specialization for Gunnery, that definitely seems to support the use of lasers. I think my argument fell to pieces there.
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ditto, never caught that one at all. guess it'd apply to sonic weaponry too in that case?
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For a laser, you need to hold your aim on one spot, most likely while moving, for at least a second, if not more.
If anything, I'd assume a mount and some auto tracking software would be an aid to holding such a focus, not a detriment.
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For a laser, you need to hold your aim on one spot, most likely while moving, for at least a second, if not more.
If anything, I'd assume a mount and some auto tracking software would be an aid to holding such a focus, not a detriment.
For manual control? Would it have auto tracking software if you are firing using manual control, rather than remote control? If it does have auto tracking software, you would be right though.
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Hmm... sounds like the argument in favor of using Exotic Ranged Weapon for mounted lasers is starting to get some holes in it. This was an interesting little discussion - thanks everyone for participating. I'll leave things open in case anyone comes up with a new position or reasoning, but it sure looks like a slam dunk for Gunnery. :)
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How can something look open and shut at the same time or is this some wordplay thing?
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LOL no that's me not proof-reading my own sentences. I'll change the metaphor so that it's less confusing. :P
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For a laser, you need to hold your aim on one spot, most likely while moving, for at least a second, if not more.
If anything, I'd assume a mount and some auto tracking software would be an aid to holding such a focus, not a detriment.
For manual control? Would it have auto tracking software if you are firing using manual control, rather than remote control? If it does have auto tracking software, you would be right though.
As an assist. (Think of the gyro mount in Aliens, it didn't fire the gun or aim but it made holding it steady much easier)
It's the same reason my camera has anti-shake tech in it. My hand may move slightly or vibrate but the camera stays focused on the same spot and the picture clear.
From what I've heard for RL tanks, move and fire systems work similar. You designate target and pull triggers but the computer tracks the relative changes for the motion of you and your target between designation and fire and makes the slight adjustments needed. (any RL tankers feel free to correct)
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For a laser, you need to hold your aim on one spot, most likely while moving, for at least a second, if not more.
If anything, I'd assume a mount and some auto tracking software would be an aid to holding such a focus, not a detriment.
For manual control? Would it have auto tracking software if you are firing using manual control, rather than remote control? If it does have auto tracking software, you would be right though.
As an assist. (Think of the gyro mount in Aliens, it didn't fire the gun or aim but it made holding it steady much easier)
It's the same reason my camera has anti-shake tech in it. My hand may move slightly or vibrate but the camera stays focused on the same spot and the picture clear.
From what I've heard for RL tanks, move and fire systems work similar. You designate target and pull triggers but the computer tracks the relative changes for the motion of you and your target between designation and fire and makes the slight adjustments needed. (any RL tankers feel free to correct)
That actually makes a lot of sense. I work with cameras a lot, so the comparison really helped. I think you're right. That means that shooting a mounted laser should be no more difficult, or even easier, than a hand-held one. Well, I guess Gunnery makes sense then.
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I can't find any evidence that you would ever use any other skill than Gunnery when firing a vehicle mounted weapon.... shrug.
weaponry—if you’ve got a gun mounted on or in a vehicle, use Gunnery
Gunnery is used when firing any vehicle-mounted weapon, regardless of how or where the weapon is mounted. This skill extends to manual and sensor-enhanced gunnery.
Default: Yes
Skill Group: None
Specializations: Artillery, Ballistic, Energy, Guided Missile, Rocket
The rules and modifiers for ranged combat apply to vehicle-mounted weapons. Vehicle-mounted weapons are fired using Gunnery + Agility [Accuracy] for manual operation, like door guns on mounts, or Gunnery + Logic [Accuracy] for remote operated systems. A Complex Action is required for shooting weapons mounted on a vehicle in any firing mode. Characters shooting handheld weapons follow the normal rules for ranged combat and suffer a –2 dice penalty for firing from a moving vehicle. Stationary vehicles do not confer any of these effects, though they may inflict the Firing from Cover modifier.
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This crossed my mind while I read through this thread:
When you mount a weapon you remove a lot of the differences between different types of firearms. Compare a pistol, an assault rifle and a rocket launcher (assume a heavy mount).
When hand-firing, they all have different stances. When mounted-firing you use the same stance for all three.
When hand-firing, they all have different recoil your body has to compensate for. When mounted-firing you don't have to worry about recoil.
When hand-firing, they all have different sights and aiming methods. When mounted-firing you are usually sighting them using the mount.
When hand-firing, they all are different shapes and weights. When mounted-firing you control the mount rather than the gun so differences don't matter.
There are minor differences in operation, but there are more similarities when firing a mounted weapon than differences. All of these cases also apply to lasers, the differences in stance, recoil, sights, and weight all cease to matter when you mount it.
That seems to be why the Gunnery skill works the way it does.
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Gotta agree.
Gunnery is the "shoot all" skill for just about all mounted weapons. Which kind of makes one of the most important skills a combat rigger could take!
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Agreed, gunnery covers anything mounted. Interesting side thought: should that include guns mounted on a tripod? Opinions?
(Personal opinion: no, only mounted on vehicle counts for gunnery, because tripod is man portable.)
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I could see a gun on a tripod (but not a bipod) being able to use the Gunnery skill as an option. I think it makes sense.
I'll be making it a house rule in my game at least.