Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Landmine on <11-10-14/1854:41>
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So I was evaluating things on my character sheet and was lookin at different DocWagon contracts. My street samurai has the platinum contract because I anticipate getting shot up at least a little bit despite my efforts to the contrary. However if i downgraded to the Gold contract, I could free up 25k.
So my question for you Shadowrun veterans is, how useful is DocWagon in practice? I notice that plenty of characters don't even have a contract. I can also see how if things went south so badly that I needed them, then there would be very little chance of actually being able to save my character. What are your experiences with DocWagon?
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First and only time I used a docwagon contract, I was laid out in corp territory and the bastards just left me there to die.
So, uh, millage may vary.
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If you are shot up enough to need DocWagon's help, you are probably somewhere they can't get too quickly. And if you are, you probably fragged up against gangers or something, so you overpayed for service.
Best get a cheapie on the off-hand chance you are in a place DW can get to, and you haven't payed too much for your contract.
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I have never ever found purchasing DocWagon to be a useful investment. Characters who have been in that bad a state...the team either evac'd and treated well before DW would show up or they straight-up died in the field.
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I never would take it, though maybe at the cheapest rate sure. It's not really worth it for PCs in most campaigns.
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I never would take it, though maybe at the cheapest rate sure. It's not really worth it for PCs in most campaigns.
Taking it at the lowest level might be useful. It won't be useful often (especially if you do your job), but if it is, it saves your life, so yeah. I took it on mine since I'm usually the one patching people up (so noone to patch me up).
The highest levels, no. Even if you actually use the bonuses (and again, that means you failed) the higher levels give you, you'd be cheaper off just straight paying for them, unless you end up calling Docwagon more then once a month.
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Considering that:
"Doc Wagon does not respond to calls on extraterritorial government or corporate property without permission from the controlling authority."
it's pretty useless when you need it most.
Trauma Patch/Crash, Stim Patch and a bit of Kamikaze within your Autoinjector allows you to extract yourself.
Hell, for half the gold contract you can buy your own Aeroquip Dustoff and have it on stand by during your runs. Fit it with Spoof Chips and Chameleon Coating (or paint it before every mission) so the on site personal thinks it's from their own corp.
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DocWagon is for people who move in the light.
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I once used it during a campaign in the following way (4th edition, in case things have changed in 5th):
-I had the basic contract, which I never used.
-I also had a contact in a large docwagon clinic (a doctor)
-when I needed some ware installed, if it wasn't too illegal (anything up to R rating), I could go there and have it done no questions asked. In fact, I used them as a street doc and since they already had a sample on file and my medical files, I didn't have to give them to someone else.
-Also after getting shot up once, I went to that hospital and I was treated at a discount (as I had a contract) and again, without questions asked. Very nice given that you get a full hospital service instead of some street doc where you don't even know if he actually is a doctor.
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DocWagon (and their equivalents) doesn't go onto corp property, they have extradition agreements with security providers, and they keep all kinds of records. Oh yeah, and there's always the chance that you get to play test subject in any experiments they might run. On top of all that, those same bracelets/tags that allow DocWagon to track you down also allows anyone else who gets the signal to track you down. From a professional criminal's point of view, I'll go with a first aid kit, trauma patches, and healing magic until I can get to the street doc. Just sayin'.
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Thanks for all the replies. It seems funny to me that the safety net the authors tried to establish is so universally rejected. I started to pick up on that, but felt like I might have been missing something.
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I once used it during a campaign in the following way (4th edition, in case things have changed in 5th):
-I had the basic contract, which I never used.
-I also had a contact in a large docwagon clinic (a doctor)
-when I needed some ware installed, if it wasn't too illegal (anything up to R rating), I could go there and have it done no questions asked. In fact, I used them as a street doc and since they already had a sample on file and my medical files, I didn't have to give them to someone else.
-Also after getting shot up once, I went to that hospital and I was treated at a discount (as I had a contract) and again, without questions asked. Very nice given that you get a full hospital service instead of some street doc where you don't even know if he actually is a doctor.
That's a great freakin idea.
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My first two characters had basic DocWagon contract. Both of 'em got killed and DocWagon didn't come into play even once. I stopped buying it after the second death.
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I've never ended up using DocWagon. At the same time, farothel's idea is ingenious.
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they have your files and their hospitals are top notch, so why give them to someone else when you don't have to.
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they have your files and their hospitals are top notch, so why give them to someone else when you don't have to.
Mostly because I've never had to. Trolls heal fast. :D
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Mostly because I've never had to. Trolls heal fast. :D
And they get stunbolted rather than shot anyways, as you can one-shot a troll with a stunbolt (at least in 4th), but you need a Thor shot to kill him.
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Mostly because I've never had to. Trolls heal fast. :D
And they get stunbolted rather than shot anyways, as you can one-shot a troll with a stunbolt (at least in 4th), but you need a Thor shot to kill him.
Four levels of spell resistance, a 4 willpower and a 4 edge (when needed) takes the sting out of stunbolts most days. 8)
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I had a troll in one of my games built like that. Dude had a crapton of armor, what with his riot shield (which he used as a weapon). He was a physical adept, so he cheese-stacked magic resistance as well. And this was before we had clarification that Quick Healer didn't stack double between you and your healer. In the end, we had to find him a new home - he was just too tough to kill, and kept getting his teammates killed as a result.
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I had a troll in one of my games built like that. Dude had a crapton of armor, what with his riot shield (which he used as a weapon). He was a physical adept, so he cheese-stacked magic resistance as well. And this was before we had clarification that Quick Healer didn't stack double between you and your healer. In the end, we had to find him a new home - he was just too tough to kill, and kept getting his teammates killed as a result.
Do you mean they nuked him? And he survived but his teammates didn't? Yikes.
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I had a troll in one of my games built like that. Dude had a crapton of armor, what with his riot shield (which he used as a weapon). He was a physical adept, so he cheese-stacked magic resistance as well. And this was before we had clarification that Quick Healer didn't stack double between you and your healer. In the end, we had to find him a new home - he was just too tough to kill, and kept getting his teammates killed as a result.
I know what you mean. We had a troll tank in our party years ago, the GM decides to teach him a lesson, hits him with several grenades at once, he soaked it all and the hacker in the far corner of the room died and the rest of the party was messed up bad ~_~
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Dumb. You don't target the barbarian's Fort Save, you go for his Will Save! I don't care how much armor the troll has, sniper with a dart rifle and injection darts filled with Laes making called shots at the unarmored areas says troll is going to sleep for a while.
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Dumb. You don't target the barbarian's Fort Save, you go for his Will Save! I don't care how much armor the troll has, sniper with a dart rifle and injection darts filled with Laes making called shots at the unarmored areas says troll is going to sleep for a while.
Er, you can have a Body 9, Willpower 5 Troll with 6 Edge if wanted. It's possible to resist the Laes. Granted, it's not likely. And if you go a cybered route, they could have Toxin Extractor Bioware.
I get your point though.
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Waunut splash grenade loaded with pixie dust?
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... well, if by 'pixie dust' you're talking 'Slab', then yeah, go ahead. If by 'pixie dust' you're saying 'this will happen when monkeys fly out of my butt', clearly you're playing in very ... limited campaigns.
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NO man, Pixie is like Laes light. It's an awakened drug that erases 1D6 minutes of the user's memory (In the same way Laes does) And in the meanwhile, the person is just standing there in a drugged stupor. Makes it perfect to run up and restrain 'em (Or just shoot 'em no problems)
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Dumb. You don't target the barbarian's Fort Save, you go for his Will Save! I don't care how much armor the troll has, sniper with a dart rifle and injection darts filled with Laes making called shots at the unarmored areas says troll is going to sleep for a while.
Er, you can have a Body 9, Willpower 5 Troll with 6 Edge if wanted. It's possible to resist the Laes. Granted, it's not likely. And if you go a cybered route, they could have Toxin Extractor Bioware.
I get your point though.
Funny thing is, drugs and toxins work differently, 8-Bit. Drugs don't get resisted like toxins do. Toxin Extractors, Edge, Willpower, and Body don't stop drugs, which all have a minimum effect. Sure, the Troll could resist the stun damage, but he would still fall unconscious for the 20 x 1d6 minutes, and lose the last 12 - Body (min 1) hours worth of memory. So the troll is down for a MINIMUM of 20 min, no matter what their Body is, or anything else.
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Dumb. You don't target the barbarian's Fort Save, you go for his Will Save! I don't care how much armor the troll has, sniper with a dart rifle and injection darts filled with Laes making called shots at the unarmored areas says troll is going to sleep for a while.
Er, you can have a Body 9, Willpower 5 Troll with 6 Edge if wanted. It's possible to resist the Laes. Granted, it's not likely. And if you go a cybered route, they could have Toxin Extractor Bioware.
I get your point though.
Funny thing is, drugs and toxins work differently, 8-Bit. Drugs don't get resisted like toxins do. Toxin Extractors, Edge, Willpower, and Body don't stop drugs, which all have a minimum effect. Sure, the Troll could resist the stun damage, but he would still fall unconscious for the 20 x 1d6 minutes, and lose the last 12 - Body (min 1) hours worth of memory. So the troll is down for a MINIMUM of 20 min, no matter what their Body is, or anything else.
Funny thing is, Stolen Souls groups everything under drugs, even though it includes Gamma-Scopolamine which is clearly a Toxin according to the Core Rule Book of SR5. I mean, you can argue with me that they are drugs all you want, because they are listed under drugs, except they all have amazingly similar effects and stat blocks compared to the Toxins section of the Core Rule Book of SR5. Every "drug" in Stolen Souls is clearly a toxin when compared to the examples in the Core Rule Book of SR5; the only exceptions are DMSO, Liquid Nutrients, and Normal Saline; which I think you could hardly consider drugs when compared to the actual drugs in the Core Rule Book of SR5.
So, yeah, I know what I'm talking about in this case.
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8-Bit is right, Mirikon - drugs are for game purposes essentially toxins (and/or vice-versa) for the way the game handles them. However, 8-Bit, Mirikon is also right, in that certain drugs/toxins have a minimum effect, which do not get resisted. Gamma-scop, for example - even if you resist all the muscle-paralysis, it's still going to act as a truth serum for that hour it's in your system.
And SnowDragon, you're meaning leal - aka laes-light. I don't recall 'Pixie' being an official street name for it, but I can see where that might come from.
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Pixie dust is the speedball of leal and novacoke, I believe. It was in Arsenal, IIRC.
And I'd forgotten that there were 5E stats for Laes. Looks like they nerfed it a lot from 4th. Too bad.
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Ah. Party drug. :P
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Pixie dust is the speedball of leal and novacoke, I believe. It was in Arsenal, IIRC.
Ah so snapchat for the 6th world. What happens at the Pixie party stays at the pixie party ;)
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As a GM I always find DocWagon biomonitor and Matrix link to a DocWagon Hospital a good way to find stealthing character
DocWagon contract leave trace behind you, never a good idea for a ShadowRunner. I presume that a "more advance" contract protect you from a MegaCorp buying your information from DocWagon but to you want to live with this kind of paranoia
DocWagon contract need "normaly" to be link to a working SIN I presume
and what if you have to make a run against DocWagon ? :-\
Have fun thinking about that, they're no good answer
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As a GM I always find DocWagon biomonitor and Matrix link to a DocWagon Hospital a good way to find stealthing character
DocWagon contract leave trace behind you, never a good idea for a ShadowRunner. I presume that a "more advance" contract protect you from a MegaCorp buying your information from DocWagon but to you want to live with this kind of paranoia
DocWagon contract need "normaly" to be link to a working SIN I presume
and what if you have to make a run against DocWagon ? :-\
Have fun thinking about that, they're no good answer
DocWagon's bottom line depends on discretion. Many high end corp types have contracts with them and if every little flesh wound by every little shadowrunning snafu was made public, they wouldn't hold that contract long. It's also a dog eat dog world out there. If they start getting in bed with the corps or taking sides then they will get bought out by one of the big dogs who sees weakness or a threat.
I have always assume DocWagons application process was a two step process. Did the check clear? If yes then probin time!
A run against DocWagon would be problematic, but that's why you just don't get caught. If you leave no evidence behind there is nothing for them to check against the database 8)
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As a GM I always find DocWagon biomonitor and Matrix link to a DocWagon Hospital a good way to find stealthing character
DocWagon contract leave trace behind you, never a good idea for a ShadowRunner. I presume that a "more advance" contract protect you from a MegaCorp buying your information from DocWagon but to you want to live with this kind of paranoia
DocWagon contract need "normaly" to be link to a working SIN I presume
and what if you have to make a run against DocWagon ? :-\
Have fun thinking about that, they're no good answer
1) If they're being stupid about it, maybe.
2) They're not going to be very likely to sell your biometric data like that because of the risk of losing the contract, at least as long as you keep your payments up.
3) A working SIN need not necessarily be a real one (though, personally, I generally take a real one).
4) Running on DocWagon? Hell no. I'm not burning that bridge.
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DocWagon contract leave trace behind you, never a good idea for a ShadowRunner. I presume that a "more advance" contract protect you from a MegaCorp buying your information from DocWagon but to you want to live with this kind of paranoia
No it doesn't. DocWagon will NEVER sell data, and they don't even care about whether people with a contract have SINs. It's all about the money, and discretion is mandatory for that.
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because you put your trust into a corp ?
let's say that DocWagon will not sell your information, they could always be hack
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because you put your trust into a corp ?
let's say that DocWagon will not sell your information, they could always be hack
If a character is going that far down the paranoia road, I don't see how they aren't a shut-in hermit that never leaves their doss.
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because you put your trust into a corp ?
let's say that DocWagon will not sell your information, they could always be hack
DocWagon confidentiality and security-that trust--is essential to their bottom line. They have far more motivation to protect your information (and the capability to do so) than any medical contact a Shadowrunner could possibly have.
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Seriously though, the books themselves spell it out. DocWagon keeps your data highly protected exactly because they know that if at any point they screw up, they are completely out of business. The only thing that can get in the way is a GM who's just looking for an excuse to screw over his players.
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I presumed you're right ;D
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Seriously though, the books themselves spell it out. DocWagon keeps your data highly protected exactly because they know that if at any point they screw up, they are completely out of business.
Well, runners are not exactly a large demographic, so realistically their favor would not decide the fate of a corp the size of DocWagon. But the fluff is still clear that DW actively does not care about their clients. They won't reveal anything about their clients unless it's undeniable anyway, like if somebody gets taken in under the eyes of Lone Star (see Missions). And even in that case, they will initially drag you out and put you back together, before extraditing.
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Sengir: do you mean they don't care who their clients are, or do you mean they don't care what happens to their clients?
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The usefulness of DocWagon is really dependent on the campaign. In a heavy "black trench coat" game it might end up being a way to track a character. In other campaigns it may be that if you give them a half-ass decent fake SIN, or maybe even no SIN at all, they simply don't care as long as you pay the bill. Speak to your GM about how he sees them. The big downside is that they don't violate extraterritoriality. There are still plenty of places where they are darned useful, like being hip deep in the barrens with one health box left and a bike that was overhauled by a grenade launcher strike, I would be heading to the nearest rooftop and hitting the call button.
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Sengir: do you mean they don't care who their clients are, or do you mean they don't care what happens to their clients?
They don't care who there clients are: and once they treat them, they don't care what happens to them either; but while they have them, they defend them, and they don't spill the data they hold.
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Seriously though, the books themselves spell it out. DocWagon keeps your data highly protected exactly because they know that if at any point they screw up, they are completely out of business.
Well, runners are not exactly a large demographic, so realistically their favor would not decide the fate of a corp the size of DocWagon. But the fluff is still clear that DW actively does not care about their clients. They won't reveal anything about their clients unless it's undeniable anyway, like if somebody gets taken in under the eyes of Lone Star (see Missions). And even in that case, they will initially drag you out and put you back together, before extraditing.
It isn't shadowrunners that make up the bulk of DocWagon's business, but their business is emergency medical service. Discretion is a large part of that, and just so for their largest clients. Think about this for a minute: movie stars, rock idols, politicians, executives of corporations A-rated or smaller that don't have their own medical corporation of their own (or only own something in a limited area), they all use DocWagon or something similar, and if word got out - if rumor got out - that DocWagon was suddenly selling the personal information or material link of any one of their clients, then suddenly they would all move contracts to someone who wasn't. "Hey, did you know that Mercurial / Governor Brackhaven / Maxwell Parrish was on a huge bender last night, wrecked his/her car, had to be rescued under fire, and was revealed to have six STDs?? Screamsheets are gonna go gonzo over this one!!" Rats leaving a sinking ship don't move as fast as contract cancellations on that one.
DocWagon is, however, a corporation (AA, I think) rated by the Corporate Court, which means there is machinery in place for them to turn over someone wanted in another juris-my-diction. Saeder-Krupp, Knight Errant, Lone Star, or whomever files the evidence they have, and petitions DocWagon. If it's damning, DW is gonna hand your ass over - and if it's not, the prosecuting corporation is going to file with the local CorpCort rep, who might just rule in their favor, and DW is then obliged to hand you over. So yeah, you might get rescued from a firefight with the Knights, but during your stay in the DocWagon facility, the gears will be turning, and you might wind up getting handed over to the guys from whom you were fighting to get away.
GM tip - if the runners ARE fighting corporate security for some reason, and DocWagon gets called to rescue them, have corp security stop shooting as soon as DocWagon shows up; have them get on the line to their legal right away instead. ;)
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There is always the option to have docwagon pull you out of a tight spot, get the first aid, and then check out of their facility AMA (against medical advice, basically they make you sign a wavier that says if you drop dead two blocks down the street its not their fault, they warned you) Unless your GM is really a hardcase, this will probably not get you caught, provided the docwagon contract is not on the sin you are living under (even for pure pink mohawk you should always have a seperate SIN for your living situation, and do NOTHING operational with it, ever) and if it will get you caught your GM should make this clear ahead of time. Like I said in my earlier post, this is really something for hardcore black trench coat, but if you play that way you just need to make it clear going in.
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I have found that docwagon is useful for my street sam/weapon specialist/big gun type characters, because they are usually the ones getting shot at the most, thus getting hit the most. For mages it's about 50/50, and deckers/riggers it usually is a way to spend nuyen. But then, most of the gms I have/do play with value docwagon, so consider that.
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I presume that in some way DocWagon will use metadata from your contract the same way facebook and google do
this could be a liability in some way, as GM I don't know how use that, but as a player it's good to remember, I think
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I'll admit that I haven't really taken much along the lines of a DocWagon contract since 3rd, but that's more because that's the first place to look at trimming nuyen expenditures down because of the reductions in character generation resources that both 4th and 5th did from what you could get in 3rd.
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I presume that in some way DocWagon will use metadata from your contract the same way facebook and google do
Why would they? Facebook depends on ads to earn money. DocWagon gets paid for their services. Risking that bottom line would be madness.
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As I understand it
Google and Facebook earn more money from metadata and statistical analysis
DocWagon probably do the same thing because it could give them valuable real time data of their employees and contractees, sure their not obligated to sell this data to an other corp but they could keep it from whatever reason they feel good
I'm just saying that is question worth mentioning, I think
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But for Google and Facebook that metadata is their bottom line. For DocWagon their trustworthiness is their bottom line, because without it they would not earn ANY money. So they would not do things that endanger it. Go cheap on staff, sure. But Shadowrunners should not have something to fear from taking out a DocWagon contract.
Truth be told, I think that any GM who punishes people for wasting cash on a DocWagon contract needs to think about where they're going with their game. Do they really want to make their players utterly paranoid and screw them over with things that rightfully should not screw them over? Or are they willing to follow the official fluff, where a Shadowrunner CAN trust DocWagon?
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No, in this case I kind of agree with farfromnice, even if I don't think he knows exactly what he 's meaning to think about in relation to metadata and the corporation in question. The metadata of their clients IS something that DocWagon would look at, just as RL insurance companies do. It helps them price their services, for one; they can nudge their prices up more for someone whose purchase profile (and location-of-purchase profile) shows them to engage in dangerous pursuits in dangerous areas. I can also see them using realtime link location data to pre-position fast response units on certain evenings, when a significant number of individuals that their prior marketing-profile research has flagged start to gather in certain areas. This information isn't stuff they're selling, but it is metadata that they'd use to service their clients faster, better, and for a bigger pocketbook hit.
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The comparison to insurance companies is a good one, Wyrm. Imagine if an insurance company was also a healthcare provider? That's basically DocWagon. They collect data on their clients and use that data to better attune their internal processes. They might even sell non-specific information, such as the number of insured or the number of men over 40 with heart conditions. But they aren't going to sell information about specific clients, ever. It would disrupt the trust that the population has in them, and honestly trust is the only thing that keeps them from going out of business. There are plenty of competitors out there for DocWagon, but DocWagon is still considered the best, and it's not just good marketing. It's decades of trust.
As a side note, I think the fact that DocWagon won't sell their information is also holding them back from being part of a AAA corp. That and they like to be as neutral as possible. But I'd be shocked if one or several AAAs hadn't attempted to buy them out at some point. They have something almost no corp has in the Sixth World: integrity.
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Except to their employees who are worked like dogs and misled about how tough things will be. 'Nono this ain't a job requiring HTR.' 'There are two dozen 'Weeners firing at us!' 'Perfectly doable, just stay in the armored vehicle.' 'We have to leave it to pick up the guy and they are bringing out grenades!'
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Well, it's not a great comparison but for a short while I worked for Progressive Insurance as tech support. It was a lot like that, only no actual bullets. :P
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The comparison to insurance companies is a good one, Wyrm. Imagine if an insurance company was also a healthcare provider? That's basically DocWagon. They collect data on their clients and use that data to better attune their internal processes. They might even sell non-specific information, such as the number of insured or the number of men over 40 with heart conditions. But they aren't going to sell information about specific clients, ever. It would disrupt the trust that the population has in them, and honestly trust is the only thing that keeps them from going out of business. There are plenty of competitors out there for DocWagon, but DocWagon is still considered the best, and it's not just good marketing. It's decades of trust.
As a side note, I think the fact that DocWagon won't sell their information is also holding them back from being part of a AAA corp. That and they like to be as neutral as possible. But I'd be shocked if one or several AAAs hadn't attempted to buy them out at some point. They have something almost no corp has in the Sixth World: integrity.
yeah they mention fending off mega corp buy outs in a side bar from 04-10 Romero and Juliette
> DocWagon has also fended off buyout attempts by top-tier corps like
Ares and Aztechnology. They would be a huge asset, but they’re too big
a bite for anyone but the AAAs to even consider taking on.
> Nephrine
The same side bar also mentions they dont get along with knight errant too well
> There’s some friction between DocWagon and Knight Errant lately,
mostly KE throwing their weight around and pointedly reminding
DocWagon to follow proper procedure to the letter in their jurisdiction.
DocWagon has a good working relationship with Lone Star, but
KE tends to view them as a potential problem. We’ll see if it escalates
above the level of an inter-corporate spat.
> Snopes