Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Poindexter on <11-16-14/0334:56>
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Ok, I know the common belief is that it doesn't add to dmg, but what about recoil comp? Does it add to that?
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No. It is not a dicepool, so it won't help. And while I would argue ruling otherwise for damage is fair, I do not believe so for recoil.
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No it doesn't
SR5 p. 309 Attribute Boost
This only affects your dice pools...
Slipped by Michael Chandra.
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I would personally say yes to both - it'll increase your damage and your capacity to adjust for recoil. I'm perfectly on board with it not changing your Limits, Initiative, damage track, etc. - but I tend to be 'Liberal Bastard' when it comes to GMing that sort of thing.
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I personally think it would be a good idea that it acted like a regular augmented attribute (increasing your running speed, recoil compensation, condition monitor, melee damage etc etc) - for a small power point cost, but only for a short period of time and having drain to deal with. But by RAW it only increase dice pools....
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it would definitely be nice if it added to things other that dice pools. As it is now attribute boost is really only worth it for agi.
Str boost for damage would go a long way towards making humans more viable in melee ~_~
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Just for my own clarifications sake, the SPELL "increase attribute" used on strength DOES increase limits and dmg and recoil comp and runspeed and all that good stuff, right?
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But the spell is still limited by the augmented maximum limit, right?
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But the spell is still limited by the augmented maximum limit, right?
right !
Hough
Medicineman
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Just for my own clarifications sake, the SPELL "increase attribute" used on strength DOES increase limits and dmg and recoil comp and runspeed and all that good stuff, right?
But the spell is still limited by the augmented maximum limit, right?
Correct and correct. Attribute Boost is an explicit exception under its own rules with limits on its benefits, similarily (except for damage) to Cyberlimbs. Meanwhile, the spells and powers all list respecting Augmented Maximum. Only drugs (and wireless wr+re) are intended to break augmented maximum, and under Missions this has been toned down (likely due to avoiding addiction being too easy there).
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But the spell is still limited by the augmented maximum limit, right?
Spells, Adept Powers and Drugs are only limited by the Augmented Maximum if they explicit say so.
Cyberware and Bioware are always limited by the augmented maximum unless they explicit say so.
Having said that, most Spells (including but not limited to the Increase [Attribute] spell) and Adept Powers (including but not limited to the Attribute Boost power) do state that they are limited by the Augmented Maximum.
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But the spell is still limited by the augmented maximum limit, right?
Spells, Adept Powers and Drugs are only limited by the Augmented Maximum if they explicit say so.
Cyberware and Bioware are always limited by the augmented maximum unless they explicit say so.
Didn't Bull clarify something about this?
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Spells and Adept Powers always say they obey the Augmented Maximum so doesn't matter there. As for Bull's clarification, that's a Missions rule. Since other designers noted that drugs are meant to bypass augmented maximum, I suspect Missions shorts it since drug abuse is far too easy there.
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Didn't Bull clarify something about this?
I'm not sure if Bull clarified it, but I know that in the Missions FAQ, all stat boosters are considered Augmentations. I'm not sure if that's meant to be in an errata, or simply just Missions.
Can you clarify what constitutes an Augmented Attribute?
Yes. Anything that increases an attribute above its natural, base score is considered an Augmentation. This includes cyberware, bioware, magic, adept powers, drugs, and anything else that adds to your attribute. In all cases, the limit of +4 remains in place unless a power or ability specifically says it breaks that cap.
Edit: Ninja'ed by Michael
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Interesting......
Do cyberlimbs in missions specifically says it breaks the cap?
(yes i know Aaron said that they do but then again he also said that augmentation = cyberware plus bioware and not spells and adept powers...)
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I think all the Attr Boosts should add to all facets of the Attr.
Basically they are short term & cost drain v/s permanent w/o drain so they have a lower cost but, IMHO, should act the same.
As it stands now, and as many have pointed out, there is little reason to take any of them except Agility.
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They're dirt cheap, the drain is rarely an issue unless you take 3+ ranks, and you typically get enough hits that you can activate them prior to combat. If they affect everything, they should be more expensive.
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They're dirt cheap, the drain is rarely an issue unless you take 3+ ranks, and you typically get enough hits that you can activate them prior to combat. If they affect everything, they should be more expensive.
Actually, I forgot to add something & you mentioned it.
Given the Levels are the Drain but Magic is a huge chunk of the dice I think the Drain needs to be increased.
I don't think it should cost more in PP. But I do think Drain does not work properly.
I'm thinking either 2D/Level, so twice what you currently have.
Or
Drain = Magic/2 & levels mean nothing since your level has PP cost associated where the magic is kind of free with Attr-Boost.
If you were resisting Drain-3 (Magic-6) for every boost trigger I would have no issue with them affecting all parts of an Attr.
Possibly Magic/2 + Levels Drain but I'm thinking that might be too harsh. 5 Drain for a Full Magic-6 Wolf Adept to trigger seems way too much to me.
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They're dirt cheap, the drain is rarely an issue unless you take 3+ ranks, and you typically get enough hits that you can activate them prior to combat. If they affect everything, they should be more expensive.
Actually, I forgot to add something & you mentioned it.
Given the Levels are the Drain but Magic is a huge chunk of the dice I think the Drain needs to be increased.
I don't think it should cost more in PP. But I do think Drain does not work properly.
I'm thinking either 2D/Level, so twice what you currently have.
[j/quote]
Yeah, no. Now way it needs to be double the drain.
Or
Drain = Magic/2 & levels mean nothing since your level has PP cost associated where the magic is kind of free with Attr-Boost.
If you were resisting Drain-3 (Magic-6) for every boost trigger I would have no issue with them affecting all parts of an Attr.
Maybe.
Possibly Magic/2 + Levels Drain but I'm thinking that might be too harsh. 5 Drain for a Full Magic-6 Wolf Adept to trigger seems way too much to me.
Again, no.
I have to say that given the way Attribute Boost currently works I do not see the need to modify drain. MOST adepts are going to have 6-8 dice for drain so it isn't like there it's automatically a free power. It's not like mages where they can routinely max out their drain attribute.
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Yeah, no. Now way it needs to be double the drain.
Maybe.
Again, no.
I have to say that given the way Attribute Boost currently works I do not see the need to modify drain. MOST adepts are going to have 6-8 dice for drain so it isn't like there it's automatically a free power. It's not like mages where they can routinely max out their drain attribute.
Well, as I said, we were talking a different version that would affect everything, not just dice pools.
But I have to ask, given so many people only take 1 (maybe 2) level for a Boost type, why is double bad but 1/2 magic a maybe?
2-4 v/s 3 (norm)
I guess double would be bad if you had people taking 3+ levels of it.
As it is now, Agility-Boost-1 is almost a default to any Adept that wants to use most Physical skills.
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My house rule is to have it count as an actual increase to the attribute, but limit the maximum boost to the Rating of the power. So if you take it at 1, the most you can boost it is by 1. That gives meaning to purchase the power at higher ranks.
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Yeah, no. Now way it needs to be double the drain.
Maybe.
Again, no.
I have to say that given the way Attribute Boost currently works I do not see the need to modify drain. MOST adepts are going to have 6-8 dice for drain so it isn't like there it's automatically a free power. It's not like mages where they can routinely max out their drain attribute.
Well, as I said, we were talking a different version that would affect everything, not just dice pools.
But I have to ask, given so many people only take 1 (maybe 2) level for a Boost type, why is double bad but 1/2 magic a maybe?
2-4 v/s 3 (norm)
I guess double would be bad if you had people taking 3+ levels of it.
As it is now, Agility-Boost-1 is almost a default to any Adept that wants to use most Physical skills.
Does that also mean we should raise the DV for the most common mage spells? It is popular because it is useful not because it is too cheap. Also, 3 vs. 4 DV is pretty significant when you are talking about throwing 9-11 dice for drain. The goal should not be an attempt to guarantee causing drain every time the power is used. I don't think using magic would be a good idea anyway long term because that means the drain will go up over time has your magic attribute increases. That doesn't seem too balanced to me either.
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My house rule is to have it count as an actual increase to the attribute, but limit the maximum boost to the Rating of the power. So if you take it at 1, the most you can boost it is by 1. That gives meaning to purchase the power at higher ranks.
^
I like this
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Would never need more than 4 with jack's rule but yes it's a good fix if the power affects everything
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Rating 4 would never have been needed before, too, so that's a wash. Only now you have an incentive to actually go so far. It get's automatically better as you increase your Magic attribute. For shooters this would make Improved Physical Attribute nearly worthless, though. With quickdraw and several options for simple action shots you have now an almost perfect on-demand-buff available.
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Make it max +1, +1 per two levels in Boost [Attribute]. 1.5PP and 6 Drain feels about right cost-wise.
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Does that also mean we should raise the DV for the most common mage spells? It is popular because it is useful not because it is too cheap.
I disagree. I think its popular because its the only one that affects what it is most used for, in the case of Agility, that's skills.
The rest are all gimped in some way or don't affect their most common use of the attribute.
Also, 3 vs. 4 DV is pretty significant when you are talking about throwing 9-11 dice for drain. The goal should not be an attempt to guarantee causing drain every time the power is used. I don't think using magic would be a good idea anyway long term because that means the drain will go up over time has your magic attribute increases. That doesn't seem too balanced to me either.
I could see leaving drain just as it is now, if, as suggested above, the Level also capped out the # of hits, I like that idea, gives you a reason for taking more than 1 level.
Right now the best/most effective choice for all 4 boosts at any level is to take Agility-Boost-Level-1, any other level or any other Attribute isn't going to be as effective. I don't think it should be that of 4 skills and up to Magic-Levels that 1 should be the clear choice over all others myself. Doesn't seem well balanced to me.
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I like this
Ditto
Would never need more than 4 with jack's rule but yes it's a good fix if the power affects everything
Not really a bad thing to not need more than 4.
But really. Given boosts are temporary v/s permanent, if you ruled them as not being affected by the normal Augmented Maximum of +4 just to see if someone could by 5-6 Levels & risk 5-6 drain every time they triggered it. I'd still see that as balanced.
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For shooters this would make Improved Physical Attribute nearly worthless, though.
Not so sure of that, after all, hitting 4 drain every time will build up fairly quickly.
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Don't know, but with BOD and WIL being important for every character, I wouldn't think the issue will be too big. And Stun damage can be slept off quite easy.
PS: You can edit posts to avoid triple posts like what you did here ;)
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...just to see if someone could by 5-6 Levels & risk 5-6 drain every time they triggered it. I'd still see that as balanced.
You also need a Magic Rating of 5 (or 6) if you want 5 (or 6) levels of an Adept Power.
SR5 p. 308 Adepts
The maximum number of levels you can have of any one power is equal to your Magic Rating, or up to a limit listed by the power, whichever is less.
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I would personally say yes to both - it'll increase your damage and your capacity to adjust for recoil. I'm perfectly on board with it not changing your Limits, Initiative, damage track, etc. - but I tend to be 'Liberal Bastard' when it comes to GMing that sort of thing.
I agree. I do not think it was intended for Boost Strength to do almost nothing.
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I do not think it was intended for Boost Strength to do almost nothing.
A bonus to Strength based dice pools include how fast you can climb, odds that you don't fall while climbing, how fast you can sprint, how fast you can swim, how long you can tread water, how well you defend against subduing, resist physical manipulation spells, lifting, carry or break open stuff. For some characters it might be worth it, for others it will not.
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I'd like to promote the topic(s) in my signature again. ^_^ It has arguments for what could be a fair houserule, which GMs can consider exactly because the RAW here seems a bit too restrained and RAI is not really obvious.
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I do not think it was intended for Boost Strength to do almost nothing.
A bonus to Strength based dice pools include how fast you can climb, odds that you don't fall while climbing, how fast you can sprint, how fast you can swim, how long you can tread water, how well you defend against subduing, resist physical manipulation spells, lifting, carry or break open stuff. For some characters it might be worth it, for others it will not.
And there is no reason why it shouldn't also affect your physical damage with fists or weapons, or help with securing your weapon from it's recoil. Boost your strength should be just like more permanent forms of augmentation. Just because it's printed in the rules doesn't mean it makes sense or even was intended.
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I do not think it was intended for Boost Strength to do almost nothing.
A bonus to Strength based dice pools include how fast you can climb, odds that you don't fall while climbing, how fast you can sprint, how fast you can swim, how long you can tread water, how well you defend against subduing, resist physical manipulation spells, lifting, carry or break open stuff. For some characters it might be worth it, for others it will not.
And there is no reason why it shouldn't also affect your physical damage with fists or weapons, or help with securing your weapon from it's recoil. Boost your strength should be just like more permanent forms of augmentation. Just because it's printed in the rules doesn't mean it makes sense or even was intended.
Just a note here Zar - Xenon has a funny way with words. It sounds like he might be disagreeing with you, because there is that certain matter-of-fact aloof tone to the post. But he's actually supporting the idea that Boost Strength should be used for more than just those few tests. I think he was just trying to point out that there are tests that aren't damage-related that Boost Strength would benefit.
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Boost your strength should be just like more permanent forms of augmentation.
I was just [trying] to point out what Boost Strength currently does according to RAW.
(without trying to agree or disagree with you or emphasize if I personally think it is good or bad).
Personally I still think this is a great house rule:
My house rule is to have it count as an actual increase to the attribute, but limit the maximum boost to the Rating of the power. So if you take it at 1, the most you can boost it is by 1. That gives meaning to purchase the power at higher ranks.