Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Poindexter on <11-18-14/1732:39>
-
I see lots of mentionings of spells, critter powers, and rituals, even foci activation in the section on astral signatures, but none whatsoever about conjuring.
I don't see why it SHOULDN'T leave one, but what do I know?
lil help?
-
Pg 315 SR5 Core may help
Active spells are linked to their casters,
spirits are linked to their summoners, astrally projecting
magicians are linked to their physical bodies, and foci
and magical lodges are linked to the magicians who activated
them. Awakened entities who assense the astral
signature of these astral forms can track their links
through the astral plane back to their sources. Following
an astral link requires an Assensing + Intuition (5,1
hour) [Astral] Extended Test modified as noted on the
Astral Tracking Modifiers table.
The spirit itself carries a link back to their summoner which can be detected and followed.
It would not be unreasonable for the area where the spirit was summoned carried a bit of the signature for a time, but it does not specifically say as such. A stronger spirit or spirits forbid a blood spirit pulled out would certainly leave a taint in the region, if the ruptured corpse didn't give it away right off.
-
Pg 315 SR5 Core may help
Active spells are linked to their casters,
spirits are linked to their summoners, astrally projecting
magicians are linked to their physical bodies, and foci
and magical lodges are linked to the magicians who activated
them. Awakened entities who assense the astral
signature of these astral forms can track their links
through the astral plane back to their sources. Following
an astral link requires an Assensing + Intuition (5,1
hour) [Astral] Extended Test modified as noted on the
Astral Tracking Modifiers table.
The spirit itself carries a link back to their summoner which can be detected and followed.
It would not be unreasonable for the area where the spirit was summoned carried a bit of the signature for a time, but it does not specifically say as such. A stronger spirit or spirits forbid a blood spirit pulled out would certainly leave a taint in the region, if the ruptured corpse didn't give it away right off.
Yeah, im with ya on all that, but it doesn't quite get at the meat of my question. Maybe I didn't ask it properly.
Yeah, assense the spirit and you can figure out who summoned it, but what if said spirit has done it's thing and departed our realm for the ether already by the time the cops get there? It seems like a cheesy way to get past magical detective work, y'know? Rather than cast a spell that can be "smelled" for hours after the fact, just summon a spirit to do your dirty work, send it away when it's done and move on like nothing happened?
-
I'd play it that the area where a spirit is summoned would leave a signature, similar to a spell. For instance, if you cast Detect Life or some other sustained spell, an astral signature is produced at the site of the spellcasting and there is also an astral signature carried on the sustained spell effect as well. I don't see why spirits should work any differently (other than the fact that the section dealing with Astral Signatures seemed to go out of its way to not include spirits in there for some reason).
This is called an astral signature, and it’s produced on anything affected by magic skills or abilities.
"[P]roduced on anything affected by magic skills or abilities" seems as if it is very loose terminology.
-
I'd play it that the area where a spirit is summoned would leave a signature, similar to a spell. For instance, if you cast Detect Life or some other sustained spell, an astral signature is produced at the site of the spellcasting and there is also an astral signature carried on the sustained spell effect as well. I don't see why spirits should work any differently (other than the fact that the section dealing with Astral Signatures seemed to go out of its way to not include spirits in there for some reason).
This is called an astral signature, and it’s produced on anything affected by magic skills or abilities.
"[P]roduced on anything affected by magic skills or abilities" seems as if it is very loose terminology.
I agree on both counts. On one hand, the wording seems to be very inclusive, but on the other, it almost seems to have gone out of its way to not mention anything about spirits.
-
You aren't manipulating mana to create a spell, you are simply calling upon something from another metaplane. Spirits leaving astral signatures would be the same as adepts leaving astral signatures by existing.
-
You aren't manipulating mana to create a spell, you are simply calling upon something from another metaplane. Spirits leaving astral signatures would be the same as adepts leaving astral signatures by existing.
Yes, but the calling is magical in nature (the summoning skill is only usable by Awakened). I would expect that this manipulation of magical energies is enough to leave a residue. Once the spirit is arrived, I agree, they would leave no magical mark simply by being here - they would have to use abilities to leave further signatures. But the summoning is very clearly a magical act and should leave a signature.
I'd argue that a spirit materializing also leaves a signature, though I'd make that signature unique to the spirit (as I would all signatures left by a spirit's actions) rather than the summoner, even though they are linked. The link would allow an observer viewing the spirit live to follow it back to the summoner, but the signatures left behind by the spirit's actions should be unique to the spirit.
At least, that's how I'd rule it in the absence of official word to the contrary.
-
According to the text on page 315 of the core book, the spirit itself can be used to track the astral signature of its summoner. But the act of summoning should not leave a signature. At least not in any way that we have rules for.
-
According to the text on page 315 of the core book, the spirit itself can be used to track the astral signature of its summoner. But the act of summoning should not leave a signature. At least not in any way that we have rules for.
How hard is it track down a spirit that was summoned, did its thing, and then went on its merry way before detectives arrive?
-
According to the text on page 315 of the core book, the spirit itself can be used to track the astral signature of its summoner. But the act of summoning should not leave a signature. At least not in any way that we have rules for.
How hard is it track down a spirit that was summoned, did its thing, and then went on its merry way before detectives arrive?
What was it's "thing"? That is the heart if the question.
If it materialized, left a threatening message and buggered off? Not much of a signature for anyone to follow up on.. even minutes after the spirit left.
A great form fire elemental uses its abilities to burn down an apartment block with everyone inside? There is going to be a heck of an astral signature for detectives to follow..... at least back to the spirit (not the summoner).
From there, occult detectives can trace back to the original spirit on the metaplanes, or even use their knowledge of the signature to summon the spirit back for questioning.
Remember, Spirits share a universal memory. They remember the treatment they have received at the hands of mages that have summoned them, or any spirit.
Using a spirit to commit a crime doesn't stop you from getting caught, it just requires a skill set that the average beat cop doesn't have.
Remember also that magic has been around in SR for 60 years, this type of thing has come up before, and law enforcement IS equipped to deal with it.
-
Ah, Reaver answered before me, but still:
It depends on how you see these things:
1) What does "Each hour passed since astral link was active" in connection to a spirit? Does it have meaning when talking about spirits?
2) Is Materialization a use of a magical ability by the spirit (and is that so only at the place it materialized or all the way while it was materialized)?
3) Can a spirit be followed to the metaplanes, when it returns home after performing a service for its summoner?
4) The spirit has its own aura and uses its own powers. Is there enough left of the signature of the summoner in the signature of the spirit to track him?
If we were talking about a spell, the case is clear: the detectives would see the magician's signature in astral space where spell was active and it is clearly defined, what active means for a spell. Same for the case, that the magician left behind his focus.
The spirit's use of spirit powers is its own and leaves only its own signature. Yes, I could track it, but in most cases this would only lead me to the metaplanes, because the spirit has already been dismissed and went home. In case that it's still materialized or in normal astral space, you might find him.
If I see the spirit I can see the signature of the summoner on its aura and can begin an astral tracking to him, but I can't do so only by seeing the signature the spirit left.
So for me I decided
1) active would be for me, when the spirit left the signature at the place that I'm looking at
2) the act of Materializing leaves a signature, but not flying/running around (because that would cause problems with adepts who would leave signatures by just existing depending on their always on powers)
3) I think you might track a spirit to his metaplane if you are an initiate, but is it worth the effort?
4) I don't think that enough of the signature of the summoner is left in the signature of the spirit to track the summoner
So if the detectives come they might track down the spirit, but only if it is still in service and not at home waiting for the next call to service. Theoretically you might call an initiatiate to follow the spirit even then, but even if you found one who would risk this: Nobody knows if the mark of the summoner is still on the spirit. It might have been its last service and then the signature of its summoner might be gone.
So it might be hard to follow the spirit, because it doesn't lead anywhere that the detectives could use.
-
@Reaver: I honestly don't know, so have to ask: has it anywhere in fluff or rules been mentioned, that you can summon a specific spirit just by having seen his signature (not even its live aura)?
If you combined this with the assumption that the universal memory is not only a "this a guy is bad, this one treats you well" but real, shared memories, that would be extremely powerful.
The only way I know to summon a specific spirit is knowing its true name. But I haven't read every book.
-
You aren't manipulating mana to create a spell, you are simply calling upon something from another metaplane. Spirits leaving astral signatures would be the same as adepts leaving astral signatures by existing.
Yes, but the calling is magical in nature (the summoning skill is only usable by Awakened). I would expect that this manipulation of magical energies is enough to leave a residue. Once the spirit is arrived, I agree, they would leave no magical mark simply by being here - they would have to use abilities to leave further signatures. But the summoning is very clearly a magical act and should leave a signature.
Only if you'd argue that the communication with your Spirit also leaves astral signatures. Otherwise it makes little sense to me. And like I said, Adepts are also magical but their self-buffs don't leave trails either. So I find it a bit unbelievable that any process of calling a spirit, or a spirit materializing, etc, would leave an astral signature.
@Reaver: Universal memory isn't really a thing, they just are gossip mongers. You have a reputation, so ruin that and others would know. But Spirits don't know everything and wouldn't share that either, plus you'd be stuck with mere hearsay. So I find it unlikely that they could find out, unless they actively go after that specific spirit to its metaplane, which I don't recall being possible just from its power-use. If it was, we wouldn't have to go through a LOT of trouble to track down Free Spirits and destroy them.
-
@Reaver: I honestly don't know, so have to ask: has it anywhere in fluff or rules been mentioned, that you can summon a specific spirit just by having seen his signature (not even its live aura)?
If you combined this with the assumption that the universal memory is not only a "this a guy is bad, this one treats you well" but real, shared memories, that would be extremely powerful.
The only way I know to summon a specific spirit is knowing its true name. But I haven't read every book.
This is difficult to answer. Yes there has been mention of this both in fluff and in the books over the history of the game and novels. (Burning Bright comes to mind off the top of my head). How true the fluff is to canon? That I can not say.
But I will point you to the only firm part of 5e that I have: (and It will take some creative thought to follow me/this)
Page 300 core book, 5e. Red box at the bottom of the page :
The exact nature of spirits, how the spirits who are summoned are selected, and why they look the way they do is
a subject of much debate among Sixth World magical scholars. What is clear, though, is that summoned spirits tend
to appear in a way that is appropriate to the summoner’s tradition. This could be because the summoner’s magic helps
determine what spirit is summoned, or the spirit could be trying to gain the favor of the summoner by appearing in a shape
the summoner expects. Most spirits seem to like being on Earth, but the exact reasons are unclear and the spirits are not
keen to share any information.
Now I bolded some parts in there to high light my thought pattern (so follow me here).
How a spirit is chosen has rules/requirements. Some of these are tradition based (so a mage detective couldn't summon a shamanic Spirit, granted), but others of these area mystery, but it seems clear that the summoner in fact has a choice in the matter, even if that choice is the sub-conscious level. This is why your Fire elemental appears as a pillar of fire, Steve's looks like a Phoenix, and mine like a little red fire truck....
As long as the summoner matches the tradition, and knows the aura of the spirit, it stands to reason that, he could attune the summoning to the spirit he wants in question. Note, this in no way means that that spirit responds... merely that he can try to summon the spirit in question. (After all, he does not have the spirit's true name (not the name it tells it summoner, its TRUE name.) and thus can not FORCE the spirit)
As for the knowledge of spirits, While I have not read the new Grimoire yet, established history of SR does confirm this (to the level of each GM's choosing) most clearly and recently in the 4e street magic book under the discussion of Spirit Knowledge..... While they leave the door open for GM interpretation, They make a VERY strong case for more a hive-mind-shared-history-memory ability of Spirits, as Spirits that shouldn't possibly know of some things, actually do... But how this ability works, what it's limits are, are only known to Spirits (and the GM).
And this too is supported in the fluff and novels as well (and with the same shaky claim to canon as I mentioned before). Once again Burning Bright springs to mind. (this could be of course cause I was re-reading Bug city recently).
the other side of the argument is simple logic and deduction. Again follow me here :D
"If you can think it, Someone has done it" is a pretty standard saying in the RPGs... and it's a standard saying for a good reason.
Game worlds are supposed to be actual functioning worlds that are bound by rules and laws, and have a natural working order to them. Now, Game Designers are both limited by page space, their own knowledge, and their own creativity..... Now this is a problem for all games, is that the designers simply CAN NOT write down a rule for every single little thing. For one, not one would buy the books, and they would fill a library...not to mention they couldn't write it all down to begin with. Heck, go to your local library and look around. Right there is the history and workings of OUR world... yet no one goes there anymore... (damn Wikipedia).
So that leaves the GM to apply the "If you can think it, Someone has done it" axiom.... and the other, silent axiom that is "And they have a counter for it". In short. Every way a character thinks they have pulled of the perfect crime... Someone else has figured it out too and done it. And Law enforcement has a counter for it. (even if that "counter" is an after the fact investigation.). Their belief that they have "pulled off the perfect crime" through an exploit of perceived rules is wrong. (at least from the perspective of this Axiom) And while the rules may not come directly out to say one way or the other on a given topic, the GM should step back and ask himself some baseline questions:
What exactly is the person trying to do/say?
What are the possible consiquences of that line of action for the current game?
If everyone can do this, what would be the world consiquences of said actions on the world (economically, socially, etc)
How and why would what the person is saying/doing going to work....
And finally, just how original is this action (in the game world). The less original it is, the more likely it is there is a counter for it... Even if that "counter" is after the fact.
In this case, The main action is "Summon a Spirit, send on rampage".
Well, this is not very original. In fact, I bet every single person that read the spirit section thought of this. Every. Single. One. So it stands to reason the law enforcement would have some sort of counter to this.
Why? Cause if there isn't, the game world breaks down.
If all a mage wanted to do to get away with murder was summon a spirit, and have it kill the person and there was NO WAY to trace it back to the mage, society would go into a panic right quick. Not to mention that there would be a LOT more murders out there. (Think about it.... you are basically saying every mage on the planet has an "I don't like you. DIE!" button....) this would be priority number one for EVERY security, military, and law enforcement agency on the planet.... Some one out there, much smarter then you, or me, or Billy-the-Four-eyed-rules-lawyer-you-beat-to-near-death-every-week-with-a-phonebook, could ever be figured out a way.... Cause it just makes sense. For the game world.
Now, that doesn't mean that a runner who uses a spirit to bump someone off is going to get caught. Merely that there is a chance that he could get caught. IF he does, or does not, get caught is still up to the GM, the dice, and the RP.... and is not an absolute "get away scott free" if he uses a spirit to commit his crimes.
-
I follow you in the "What's the consequence of this for the game-world" sense, but from the point of view of the shadowrunner summoner. From there it seems to easy for me, that a security just has to arrive within an hour (no problem with astral space), assenses the signature of the spirit and then calls exactly this spirit and then this spirit tells him for a service all he knows about the summoner.
Within a short time summoners would all be catched. Yes, they could erase the signatures of their spirits and not only their own, but it's difficult enough to remember for the mage, where he himself has cast spells etc. To also remember, where his spirit(s) where and what they did, would be quite difficult.
I see, that spirits are a teleporting murder weapon, but the players are supposed to play criminals that aren't catched (at least not all the time). So there must be a possibility to use a spirit without easily being traced.
I would think that the combination of
-Materialize leaves only a signature where the spirit came out of the astral space,
-use of spirit powers leaves a signature,
-the signature left is only that of the spirit and
- only an initiate mage can try to follow this trace to the metaplane
is difficult enough for me. Depending on what the mage and/or the spirit did, security mages will risks this trip to the metaplanes, but they won't do it for "simple" crimes.
And even if they make the trip, the "mark" on the spirit might be faded.
But since a lot of this is not exactly written in the rules, you can of course make it much easier to catch the summoners in your shadowrun world.
Your version as well as mine still leaves more then enough room to kill people with spirits without ever being catched if the victim is not found within a few hours. If the signature has faded it's not important if you can summon the specific spirit or if you have to travel to its metaplane.
But in a lot of cases the crimes that shadowrunners commit are discovered a lot sooner and they would have problems with spirit signature if it is too easy to trace to the summoner.
-
You aren't manipulating mana to create a spell, you are simply calling upon something from another metaplane. Spirits leaving astral signatures would be the same as adepts leaving astral signatures by existing.
Summoning a spirit does involve manipulating mana.
The manipulation of mana, whether forming of a spell, brewing a potion, or bringing forth a being from another plane, can exhaust or injure you.
Personally, I think the simplest way to determine if a mage's actions leave an astral signature is whether they make a test involving their Magic attribute. So that would apply to spells, preparations, summoning, binding, some of the Adept activated abilities, etc.
-
Personally, I think the simplest way to determine if a mage's actions leave an astral signature is whether they make a test involving their Magic attribute. So that would apply to spells, preparations, summoning, binding, some of the Adept activated abilities, etc.
That's kinda the way I'd rule it, too. I just wanted to make good and damn sure I wasn't overlooking something major, y'know?