Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Jack_Spade on <11-19-14/0612:10>
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I was wondering if I got that right:
The monofilament chainsaw from SR5 core does 16P damage with AP -6 against barriers.
The barrier rules on p.197 state that you can damage a barrier as long as your damage exceeds the modified armor rating of the barrier.
Short of armored/reinforced material like reinforced concrete with 14 structure and 24 armor there is nothing stopping said chainsaw to go even trough a metal beam (albeit a bit slower)
The structure is given as a value per 0,1m³ or 1m² x 10cm.
Am I right to think that cutting a 1m² hole into a 10cm thick security door (reinforced material, structure 8 armor 12) would not take more than a complex action?
For a brick wall you'd only need two complex actions.
How do you interpret those rules/use them in your games?
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....
Being that i am an industrial worker, and have done a lot of this type of thing. (Cutting/burning holes in steel) i have a REAL problem with the speeds....
But this is more my issue then the rules (with fancy-dancy mono cutting saws)....
Generally speaking, they tell me what they are doing and with what, and i give them a base time frame based on 1 hit/action/turn... and they can do better with more hits.... but its still MINUTES to cut through something.... not 3 seconds.
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For every increment of the Structure Rating you make a 1-square-meter increment hole. So let's do the math for a second.
Let's assume you lack the skill needed so default at Agility -1. This means probably 2 hits average, raising damage to 18P/-6.
S8A12, versus 18P/-6. This leaves 14 soak dice, which likely rolls at most 7 hits. So you'll have a 1-square-meter hole. If you have decent training and the soak is average or less, you have a shot of making a 2-square-meter hole in a single Complex Action. So that's doable. You'd have to make big enough a hole to properly move through, so 1 Complex Action may not suffice for some people.
A brick/plascrete internal wall will be 10cm, so you would need 2 structure damages for a decent hole. 10/16 means 20 soak dice, average 7. Each attack is likely to do enough damage for 1 structure damage, so 2 Complex Actions.
An external wall would be 30cm, so you'd need 6 Complex Actions (maybe 7) to cut a 2-by-1 hole through.
Here's the important question: Why do you think this rule may be incorrect? It's a clumsy thing that requires training to properly use, makes a lot of noise when used and is impossible to conceal. A GM may also not allow you to default to add bonus damage since it's an exotic melee weapon, so only allowing you to use the base damage (without bonus hits). Granted, that has little final impact but still.
So yes, with this you could easily break through a wall, but you'd set off any and all alarms in the process. Why do you think you may have gotten it wrong?
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I don't think I've got the rule wrong.
But as Reaver rightfully mentioned, the mfc is still incredibly fast.
It might be not the best way to get into a secure facility, but it's an almost unstoppable way to get out quickly, especially if you happen to have knowledge (civil engineering) or (architecture) to attack a weak spot.
It takes only two karma to wield it professionally at Agility+1 (usually enough to hit the acc limit)
Also, doors aren't usually 10 cm thick (even 5cm are quite heavy enough).
@Concealment:
It's not more or less a problem than an assault rifle and should be at home in a large tool bag.
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I'd argue its concealment is more likely 10+ due to its larger and relatively-odd dimensions. And depending on the cover that duffelbag will rise suspicions.
As for doors: Keep in mind any decent melee character could slash the door in two, a lockpicker can open it in a single combat turn, a hacker can unlock all the doors, even simple grenades thrown ahead of you can blow the doors open just fine. So there's plenty of approaches to get through doors and even walls that are about the same speed. So I don't think the speed is a big problem.
As for the factor of the speed: It's monowire, so much better than normal chainsaws. So it's not that strange that it can cut through like that, just like it's not that strange that a monowire whip has massive damage and is one of the most dangerous melee weapons.
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Well, grenades usually affect a much larger area, so they won't be as useful.
And of course you can use the appropriate tools to go through key, transponder and mag locks. But these all require specialized tools (that are also forbidden or at least restricted) and quite a bit of skill investment.
Last but not least: You don't have to rely on doors for your passage.
I don't agree on the +10 conceal mod. but since we don't have official numbers on that, I won't argue the point.
Disguised as a firefighter, gardener or construction worker you shouldn't have a problem carrying a mfc with you.
But since you mention it: Would you allow a character to use their mono filament whip against doors to cut them open? I have a hard time imagining that.
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Why not mount the monofilament chainsaw on a missile launcher with a gyroscope on it and fire it down a crowded hallway? :D
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Why +10 to concealment though? If it can be mounted to a weapon with no loss in effectiveness it must not be a large and unwieldy as we think it is or gun performance would suffer
Why not mount the monofilament chainsaw on a missile launcher with a gyroscope on it and fire it down a crowded hallway? :D
Hmmm i like the idea of a missile launcher that fires mono chainsaws. I'll take 12! Do you take UnitedConfederateAmerican Express?
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Why +10 to concealment though? If it can be mounted to a weapon with no loss in effectiveness it must not be a large and unwieldy as we think it is or gun performance would suffer
Er ... I don't mean to be rude, but how do you plan to hide a freaking Chainsaw on your person? A gun you can at least theoretically fold up some parts or take off some parts, but a Chainsaw doesn't really have any removable parts; you certainly don't want to be touching the blade. The concealment table is all about hiding it on your person, maybe you can argue in a bag, so I think it makes perfect sense.
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It is a resizable chainsaw do to nanobots (total BS, I know). Or I put it in my bag of holding.... wait, wrong system. Nope, never mind, +10 it is, maybe a little less if in a bag that has the clocking polymers in it (reutherium I think).
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Larger area isn't that big a problem: Anything outside 4 meters will be just fine. As for those specialized tools, bringing a monofilament chainsaw into a place that also requires karma also quite sounds like a specialized tool. And grenades also solve the non-door problem, just tape one to the wall and set it off.
Why +10 to concealment though? If it can be mounted to a weapon with no loss in effectiveness it must not be a large and unwieldy as we think it is or gun performance would suffer
Because it's a chainsaw, which is bigger in several dimensions. Maybe not enough to impact gun performance, but likely enough to not be as smooth to conceal.
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I always interpreted "carried on your person" to include bags and backpacks.
+10 concealment mod refers to a rocket launcher - a mfc with a sheath shouldn't be much harder to carry concealed than a AK-97 (without folding stock).
The chainsaws I usually work with have a blade length of about 30 to 40 cm. Total length is about 80 to 90 cm, so maybe we are talking about different models, especially since I'd expect those future chainsaws to run electrical and being much less bulky (Husqvarna actually already has such saws with Li-ion batteries)
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Blue Max - Model 7953
(http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400/4b/4bb5d82b-e358-489c-8106-355bf8abd63a_400.jpg) (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Blue-Max-14-in-8-Amp-Electric-Chainsaw-7953/203154042)
14" bar, overall it is just under 18" (45cm) long and 15" (38cm) wide and weighs about 9 Lbs (4kg).
(This is a corded model, modern battery-powered chainsaws seem to have around 30% greater overall length on average, but in SR that limitation should be a thing of the past.)
Hitachi - Model CS33ET14
(http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400/7c/7c1ce878-5441-468f-9374-aa8b0cdf6ea2_400.jpg) (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Hitachi-14-in-32-2-cc-Top-Handle-Chainsaw-CS33ET14/202825804)
14" bar, overall it is just under 18" (45cm) long (almost the same as the electric one) and only 12" (30cm) wide and but it weighs about 12 Lbs (5.4kg).
I chose these two examples from the saws Home Depot has available on their web site. Either one is plenty big enough to cut through walls and doors, in fact you could probably get by with a much shorter bar on one you are taking on a run. The bulk is all in the body, but in 2070 the motor is probably a flat mag-drive system, and the battery pack fits in the handle. The bulkiest parts left after that are the top and back handles, and they can fold or be removable if you are designing it for concealability (not a concern of most modern chainsaw manufacturers). A 2070 monofilament chainsaw could easily be as compact as a short assault rifle, or a bulky SMG, even with a chain-protecting sheath.
Note: All metric conversions are approximate.
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Not that art means anything, but the MCS in the 4E(not A) book looks pretty compact to me.
I also have a feeling that an underbarrel chainsaw is built differently than a regular chainsaw (possibly one reason why it has a different Availability, IIRC). There's no way you're attaching a regular (even compact) chainsaw to the underbarrel point on a rifle and still shooting without penalty.
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Not that art means anything, but the MCS in the 4E(not A) book looks pretty compact to me.
I also have a feeling that an underbarrel chainsaw is built differently than a regular chainsaw (possibly one reason why it has a different Availability, IIRC). There's no way you're attaching a regular (even compact) chainsaw to the underbarrel point on a rifle and still shooting without penalty.
you are correct, regular MCS is 8r under barrel is 10rWhy +10 to concealment though? If it can be mounted to a weapon with no loss in effectiveness it must not be a large and unwieldy as we think it is or gun performance would suffer
Er ... I don't mean to be rude, but how do you plan to hide a freaking Chainsaw on your person? A gun you can at least theoretically fold up some parts or take off some parts, but a Chainsaw doesn't really have any removable parts; you certainly don't want to be touching the blade. The concealment table is all about hiding it on your person, maybe you can argue in a bag, so I think it makes perfect sense.
As i said if you can mount a mono saw on a rifle, at conceal-ability +6, with no loss of gun or saw function and no addition to conceal-ability, why would just the saw itself then be more than +6? If the gun can fold up or take some parts off, why couldnt the say have folding hand holds and removable safety guards ext?
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Why +10 to concealment though? If it can be mounted to a weapon with no loss in effectiveness it must not be a large and unwieldy as we think it is or gun performance would suffer
Er ... I don't mean to be rude, but how do you plan to hide a freaking Chainsaw on your person? A gun you can at least theoretically fold up some parts or take off some parts, but a Chainsaw doesn't really have any removable parts; you certainly don't want to be touching the blade. The concealment table is all about hiding it on your person, maybe you can argue in a bag, so I think it makes perfect sense.
As i said if you can mount a mono saw on a rifle, at conceal-ability +6, with no loss of gun or saw function and no addition to conceal-ability, why would just the saw itself then be more than +6? If the gun can fold up or take some parts off, why couldnt the say have folding hand holds and removable safety guards ext?
Your probably right, especially since others have pointed out that chainsaws can be a lot more compact than I thought. I think my problem was that I had the image in my mind of the 7 foot giant chainsaw that is bigger than the person wielding it; which is not how most chainsaws are. So, I think I was probably wrong; you have a point.
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you were thinking of this bad boy
(http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee195/CommanderSven/Warhammer%2040000/Priest1.jpg).
Oh warhammer 40k, what cant you make more awesome? All of my priest characters use eviscerators 8)
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you were thinking of this bad boy
(http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee195/CommanderSven/Warhammer%2040000/Priest1.jpg).
Oh warhammer 40k, what cant you make more awesome? All of my priest characters use eviscerators 8)
Yeah, pretty much. That's kind of my default visual of a chainsaw :)
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Would a miniwelder not be both more effective and more easily concealed?
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My opinion, Imveros? It SHOULD add a concealability penalty. So I disagree with the comparison. It's got a bulky engine, the saw is bigger than the barrel, so it's shaped in all dimensions to a harder-to-conceal shape, there's no way it's as easy to hide as an assault rifle and easier than a sniper rifle. The sniper rifle is at the least still slim, a chainsaw no way.
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Would a miniwelder not be both more effective and more easily concealed?
The miniwelder is great, don't leave your home without it (Forearm guards are a great place to store them). But it should be only effective where steel or other metal is concerned. Otherwise you'll just start a pretty fire.
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The miniwelder is great, don't leave your home without it (Forearm guards are a great place to store them). But it should be only effective where steel or other metal is concerned. Otherwise you'll just start a pretty fire.
Oh, I like this idea! And the one with storing miniwelder in forearm guards evenn more so!
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Where can i find the rules for how much capacity the welder takes up? i could swear i saw it somewhere.
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It takes up 1 Capacity. Rules are on page 87 of Run & Gun.
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Where can i find the rules for how much capacity the welder takes up? i could swear i saw it somewhere.
Run and gun P87 has the capacity costs of many pieces of boy scout gear. Specifically Miniwelder w/ 1 fuel canister [1]
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sweet thx guys, i knew i had seen it but assumed if it was in R&G it would be in the back.
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Capacity for gear stored in armor is at the end of the armor section in R&G.
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My opinion, Imveros? It SHOULD add a concealability penalty. So I disagree with the comparison. It's got a bulky engine, the saw is bigger than the barrel, so it's shaped in all dimensions to a harder-to-conceal shape, there's no way it's as easy to hide as an assault rifle and easier than a sniper rifle. The sniper rifle is at the least still slim, a chainsaw no way.
A chainsaw has a big motor because the torque required to drag those toothed chain-links through the wood and tear little gouges out with sharp steel saw-teeth.
A monofilament saw doesn't need torque so much, just speed. That's the difference between that and a regular chain saw. It could use a very small, efficient electric motor that doesn't have to be much bigger than the blade-guard and handle/clamps to attach it to the barrel.