Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Trencher Johnny on <12-20-14/0817:46>
-
I'm told that Satan, Lucifer, The Devl, et al goes under the name "The Adversary" in Shadowrun. Can you take him as a Mentor Spirit? Is there anything published about dealing with him? I want to know all about this.
-
SR4 Street Magic has the Adversary Mentor in it.
It is not necessarily evil by default, but also the more rebellious side standing up to a greater authority.
That said they can be slick manipulators as easily as the urban rebel sticking it to 'The Man' and generally do not take orders well.
Remember this if from 4th so a little tweaking is needed to bring it into 5th.
Spirit Mentor (Adversary)
---------Advantages: +2 dice for Manipulation spells, +2 dice
to Counterspelling
------------Disadvantages: Adversary magicians have issues with
authority. If the Adversary magician is given orders or instructions
which do not match his own desires and intentions, he
must make a Willpower + Charisma (3) Test or refuse the
order, going with his own decision instead, regardless of the
consequences.
-
Keep in mind that the Black Magic tradition also changed greatly between 4th and 5th (since it'd be the most likely to have such a mentor). In 4th it's pretty much LaVeyan Satanism, in 5th it's almost cartoonishly evil.
-
What's LaVeyan Satanism?
-
What's LaVeyan Satanism?
;)
LaVeyan Satanism (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=LaVeyan+Satanism&l=1)
-
Oh, I didn't think that was a thing in real life. I couldn't find it on the wiki.
-
Oh, I didn't think that was a thing in real life. I couldn't find it on the wiki.
WHAT? I'm sure I read a wikipedia article on that. Although, that WAS a few years ago AND I found it accidently via wiki walk. Maybe it was a section of a different article...?
-
I think the Wiki that Johnny is referencing is the Shadowrun Wikia site.
-
I think the Wiki that Johnny is referencing is the Shadowrun Wikia site.
Bingo. I thought it was a Shadowrun thing, not a "real life" thing. It didn't even cross my mind to google it.
Not gonna lie, I feel a little dumb right now.
-
Anton LaVey Aleister Crowley was... interesting. Some of his art is incredibly valuable to the right person. In fact, it might make for an interesting run opportunity. Personally, I've seen some of his work and it's not much different than a Rob Zombie album cover for White Zombie. Which makes it interesting to look at, but it doesn't exactly enrapture my attention. But what if one of his drawings (he only used pens) somehow had become imbued with his Magick (that's how he spelled it) and could be used ... for whatever. He liked to do a lot of orgy-based ritual Magick, so one might be inclined to lean in that direction.
What I'd probably do is have the art be used as a focus, have the ritual practitioners have an orgy to activate it, and then it summons some demon or something. That would be interesting as hell actually. If you're one of my players, don't read this! :P
-
Aleister Crowley might be a "better" model than Anton LaVey.
The thing with Totems *ahem* Mentor Spirits is that they're intended to be inclusive of a whole heap of mythological figures. Dragonslayer could be viewed as Zeus, Thor, Apollo, Hercules, Siegfried, Beowulf . . . and probably a few others, or none of them. Owl, Bull, Raven etc are a bit different. Adversary could be Satan, Lucifer, Angra Mainyu, whatever . . . but it doesn't have to be. Hell, I just thought of Adversary manifesting as Sid Vicious.
It's as much how the Mentor is perceived by the character as anything else. I'm sure there are threads where this has been discussed exhaustively.
-
Yeah, I was talking this out with my wife last night and totally realized I was not talking about Anton LaVey at all. My whole previous post was about Aleister Crowley, and I got the names swapped somehow. I feel dumb now. :P
-
Oh, don't feel dumb. They each bring something to the Black Magic(k) concept.
-
And actually it was a good thing.
Most people would have gone right to the truly old school Crowley, while overlooking LaVey which can represent a different take on it with a more bad-ass attitude without necessarily being flat out evil.
Interestingly as one of LaVey's main point was there were no Gods and that they were merely an invention by ourselves to use as a mental tool, his teachings could also serve well as the basis for Satanist based Psionic Character.
Granted you don't get a Mentor spirit since brownnosing up to a spirit guide is not their way, but the path is there should one wish to take it.
-
This actually has me kind of pumped for making an Adept with the Adversary as his Mentor spirit. He is discussed briefly in Dragonfall but he just gets the "Devil = evil deceiver" treatment. The source of that info isn't reliable though, which is why I came here.
Devil Wong will be so much fun to play, that cantankerous old bastard.
-
LaVey's religion and beliefs on magic were very influenced by Crowley and real-life hermeticism. Satanism expresses the gods of the past becoming the "devils of today", literally many pagan figures being portrayed demons and other dark spirits (the most well-known being the change of Pan to Satan, both being goat-like gods of ironically similar values), and the bible actually includes a list of names of them, so mentor spirits of all types fit a Shadowrun character based on the religion.
I actually made a runner who is a black magician with a tweaked Fire-Bringer as her mentor spirit, it representing the kind of cynical "defeat self-deceit" and critical, non-conformist mentality (in the idea of "fire bringer" meaning someone who is bringing inspiration and/or clarity). Changing it to "Lightbringer" was almost too obvious.
-
This actually has me kind of pumped for making an Adept with the Adversary as his Mentor spirit. He is discussed briefly in Dragonfall but he just gets the "Devil = evil deceiver" treatment. The source of that info isn't reliable though, which is why I came here.
Devil Wong will be so much fun to play, that cantankerous old bastard.
THAT particular version was explicitly toxic.
Incidentally, I just took a break from Dragonfall, literally a few minutes ago. While at Harrow's cult camp.
Yeah.
-
I actually made a runner who is a black magician with a tweaked Fire-Bringer as her mentor spirit, it representing the kind of cynical "defeat self-deceit" and critical, non-conformist mentality (in the idea of "fire bringer" meaning someone who is bringing inspiration and/or clarity). Changing it to "Lightbringer" was almost too obvious.
That's not really a tweak, since Fire-Bringer already is a straight take at the motif of the "culture hero" who rebelled against the gods to bring mankind knowledge -- be it fire (Prometheus), fishing (Loki), or the literal forbidden fruit ;)
(the most well-known being the change of Pan to Satan, both being goat-like gods of ironically similar values)
The goat feet actually are a fairly recent entry to Christian imagery, and the problem with all those "Christianity turned X into Satan" theories is that Abrahamic mythology ascribes a lot of different areas of expertise to him. In SR terms, he would not just be Seductress/Horned Man and Fire-Bringer, but also Trickster, Chaos, Dark King, Adversary, every Toxic mentor...
-
Goat feet, horns, both are considered to be symbols of the flesh and "sinful" desires. Perhaps I shouldn't have said they made Pan into Satan specifically; more that he became demonized and is one of the many (as you said) that are sometimes representing the devil.
And yeah, if Fire Bringer was more literally Prometheus it's not quite a tweak... I mean, that's where the inspiration was from. But the mechanics of it seem to suggest something a little bit different. Maybe not. *shrugs* Either way, it's a mentor spirit I look forward to roleplaying.
-
For some reason this topic brings me memories of a discussion long long ago where someone mentioned that Daniel Howling Coyote made a hell of a visual representation for The Adversary. One could say he was the Patron Saint of giving authority the middle finger in the Sixth World.
-
I have a mage in my group who uses Fire Bringer, but is an Odinist. According to the Edda, Odin hung himself upside down from a yew tree for ... a LONG time ... to bring mankind the runes. Since she's a bit of an alchemist dabbler, and all of her alchemy deals with runes, it fit really well. Fire Bringer can be a lot of things. Given the variety of interpretations, this seems intentional and awesome. Almost every culture or religion has someone that can be represented by Fire Bringer, so it makes a wonderful mentor spirit.
-
Almost every culture or religion has someone that can be represented by Fire Bringer, so it makes a wonderful mentor spirit.
That's true. It's interesting that for Christianity, that figure is considered a villain. Not many others have a similar station, do they? Prometheus, I know is considered bad by the gods, but I don't actually know of how he was seen by the Greek clergy and stuff.
So Odin would fit as Fire-Bringer... I'm interested in hearing the others that would fit the bill from various religions.
-
That's true. It's interesting that for Christianity, that figure is considered a villain.
What's interesting to me is that the concept of a Satan figure only enters into Judaic lore after the Babylonian Captivity. During that time, the Jewish scholars that were held met up with other scholars, notably those of the Zoroastrian faith. The Zoroastrians have always had a strong concept of good vs. evil, so the theory is that the Jewish scholars subsequently implemented this concept into their lore. In fact, in the earliest versions of the Old Testament (and the Torah and Koran) the Satan figure (who has had slight naming variations) was actually working at the behest of God, or at least with his consent. Look at the story of Job for instance. One could probably argue the Adversary and Fire-bringer concepts are central to a God figure for any of the Qabbalistic, Christian Theurge, and Zoroastrian tradition. Those are traditions that typically don't lean toward mentor spirits, but the Adversary and Fire-bringer mentor spirits fit pretty well.
Not many others have a similar station, do they? Prometheus, I know is considered bad by the gods, but I don't actually know of how he was seen by the Greek clergy and stuff.
So Odin would fit as Fire-Bringer... I'm interested in hearing the others that would fit the bill from various religions.
Not a whole lot of faiths have a dedicated villain in their pantheon. Even Loki and some of his ilk weren't really "bad" per se. They did bad things, but often for what is later revealed to be good reasons. Hinduism is chock full of these dichotomies - their gods are both "good" and "evil" in a lot of respects. This would be similar for the Greeks and most polytheistic religions though. The closest Greek figure that we have to the traditional Christian view of Satan is Hades, and even he isn't really "evil." Native American beliefs are full of the idea that these spirits represent both the good and bad aspects of the spirit. Egyptian religion is full of this too. The same goddess (Anuket) who controlled the Nile would bring fertility and destruction with the rising and falling of the river.
I think you'd have a harder time pinning down a strictly villainous figure in most traditions, actually. The only ones that I can think of are monotheistic, but even they have a certain bit of duality if you go back far enough.
-
The closest Greek figure that we have to the traditional Christian view of Satan is Hades, and even he isn't really "evil."
Oh ghost, this NEVER fails to crack me up. ;D
-
The closest Greek figure that we have to the traditional Christian view of Satan is Hades, and even he isn't really "evil."
Oh ghost, this NEVER fails to crack me up. ;D
I'm trying to figure out if you think what I wrote is funny, or if the reason for my writing it is funny.
-
The closest Greek figure that we have to the traditional Christian view of Satan is Hades, and even he isn't really "evil."
Oh ghost, this NEVER fails to crack me up. ;D
I'm trying to figure out if you think what I wrote is funny, or if the reason for my writing it is funny.
Well, it's just that Hades was pretty much the most decent human (so to speak) being of all olympians and everyone hated/hates him.
-
For a somewhat different take on Olympianism, try Robert Graves' "The Greek Myths" - it'll shake things up for you.
-
Hades - like Hel - was the jailor and keeper-of-the-dead. They both were essentially the most reliable and upright and just individual in the entire pantheon, later interpretations notwithstanding. I had a personal delight seeing Hades portrayed properly in the latest Dresden Files book.
And Odhinn hung from Yggdrasil for seven days.
-
And Odhinn hung from Yggdrasil for seven days.
Not to start an argument over semantics or anything, but one of the etymologies of Yggdrasil literally translates to "yew pillar." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yggdrasil#Name)
-
... not sure what you're getting at. Yes, Yggdrasil is a yew, and yes, you said he hung from a yew tree, and yes, I specified Yggdrasil. None of which we've said contradicts each other. I was specific; you, general. I was actually meaning to clarify the number of days he hung, since you seemed vague in regards to it ...
-
... not sure what you're getting at. Yes, Yggdrasil is a yew, and yes, you said he hung from a yew tree, and yes, I specified Yggdrasil. None of which we've said contradicts each other. I was specific; you, general. I was actually meaning to clarify the number of days he hung, since you seemed vague in regards to it ...
No worries - I got a different vibe from what you'd said, and just wanted to share my reasoning for referring to Yggdrasil as a yew tree. :)
-
I had a personal delight seeing Hades portrayed properly in the latest Dresden Files book.
*sigh* Well, I suppose that now that you've spoiled it for me, I might as well visit tvtropes.
BTW, I've noticed that I can't spoiler block anything. Why? Am I doing something wrong?
-
Spoilers are non-functional right now.
-
I'm told that Satan, Lucifer, The Devl, et al goes under the name "The Adversary" in Shadowrun. Can you take him as a Mentor Spirit? Is there anything published about dealing with him? I want to know all about this.
Some actual worshipers 'round here I'm willing to bet.... *sighs*
Watch out man.
-
Some actual worshipers 'round here I'm willing to bet.... *sighs*
Watch out man.
Watch out for what? Jack Chick?
-
Some actual worshipers 'round here I'm willing to bet.... *sighs*
Watch out man.
Watch out for what? Jack Chick?
Who's that?
-
Jack Chick was a guy that published a bunch of anti-RPG (specifically anti-D&D) evangelical pamphlets. As far as I know, his company (Chick Publishing) is still around. Basically, he was one of the people who helped lead that whole "D&D is Satanic" movement. He's a total asshole.
-
*sigh* Well, I suppose that now that you've spoiled it for me, I might as well visit tvtropes.
BTW, I've noticed that I can't spoiler block anything. Why? Am I doing something wrong?
Don't worry, that doesn't spoil any of the action or results.
-
Oh man Jack Chick. He didn't go after just D&D and roleplaying games. He went after everything. He's the perfect example of what every religious person wants to avoid being compared to. His stuff is hilariously bad. You can find a lot of it on the internet, often being made fun of and criticized. It's pretty embarrassing stuff. Worth looking up if you want to have a nice sardonic laugh.
-
For the Death Gods like Hades/Pluto, Baron Ghede etc., there was also the "Dark King" Mentor Spirit in SR4, which sadly was not yet included in SR5. The Mentor Spirit provided Boni for Assensing and Spirits of Man, emphasizing the "Knowing the Names of Death" aspect. On the Downside, get -1 Die to resist Physical damage for beeing so close to the underworld.
Used it once for a crippled-then-augmented Ex-Military Mage with PTSD, who "found" his Mentor Spirit after the traumatic Death of his Squad. He also used his fallen friendsī Dogtags as a Summoning Fokus for Spirits of Man, and his Spirits would also look like them - a litttle bit like The Sorrow from MGS3. Pretty grimdark, but also pretty cool :P