Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: pariahpaladin on <12-31-14/1734:53>
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I've been trying my hand at making a few builds out of Run Faster and have a couple questions that hopefully someone can answer (or at least give their opinion on).
For infected it says that this occurs at step 4 of character creation. This is after Magic is chosen, so does that mean that if I took Priority A for magic, and then took the Vampire quality - my magic and essence would go down to 1 each at the beginning of play? Or do I keep the 6 in each assuming that they have fed at some point before play starts. Seems to be a hefty tax there if not- might actually make aspected infected viable... actually, can you play an aspected Vampire?
That brings up my other main hurdle - the qualities that indicate that the subject awakens. Most give a discount for already being awakened; but for those that are not - what type of awakened would they be? Full magician, but with no spells and skills from the priority chart?
This is the part where i wish they included an example of character creation for an infected.
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Forget about the fact that there are "steps" in character creation. Very few things matter by them, and very few builds follow each step exactly anyway (when was the last time you never considered Resources or Skills or being Awakened before you reached their respective steps?) If you took Priority A, you keep your 6 Magic and 6 Essence. In my opinion, you are considered to have been through a feeding or two; while you may be a fairly newly Infected character, you aren't ferally hungry (that is, if you are creating an Infected character, if you get Infected during play, all bets are off).
Yes, you can play an Aspected Vampire. Some, like Mutaqua and Nosferatu, require you to become a specific type of Awakened.
When you Awaken, you do not automatically become a magician, aspected magician, adept, or mystic adept. You simply gain a Magic attributes and "unlock" natural powers. Should your Magic ever fall to 0, you lose all use of your natural powers. The only exceptions are those like the Mutaqua, Nosferatu, and Wendigo, which specifically state that they Awaken as certain types.
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If it doesn't give a discount for already being Awakened, then you don't Awaken magical talent automatically. All a Magic Attribute does at that point is factor in for some of your powers. The only Infected that automatically Awaken are Mutaqua as adepts and Wendigos/Nosferatu as mages (and, if they were already Awakened as the other type of magic user, they become a mystic adept). If you don't start with the Priority, then you'd be spell-less and skill-less, sans spent points from Skills/Karma. Adepts get a much easier time, as they just get power-points equal to their Magic (only mutaqua become adepts automatically, so it's a little bit fairer).
As far as where your Essence sits at the beginning of play, that's all up to what you work out with your GM. Do they let you spend some of your down-time feeding? Do you want to drain Essence? That's very situational. Keep in mind, that's for HMHVV I victims; they have variable Essence and the Essence Drain power, whereas HMHVV II & III strains just lose a point of Essence automatically as a part of their transformation (they start at 5).
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Let me get some caffeine in me and such-like, and I'll see if I can answer you effectively. Brain's still kinda marshmallow-like at the moment.
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Would a Soykaf addict who gets Infected and becomes a vamp prefer to prey on Heavy Soykaf users to get both his blood and caffeine fix seeing as he can't drink straight soykaf any longer? :P
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Would a Soykaf addict who gets Infected and becomes a vamp prefer to prey on Heavy Soykaf users to get both his blood and caffeine fix seeing as he can't drink straight soykaf any longer? :P
... I don't think there are words to describe how I felt when I read that. Just ... wow.
What about mixing blood and soykaf? You can't digest soykaf, but you can digest blood. Maybe mixing the two will sneak it past your system's defenses?
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Would a Soykaf addict who gets Infected and becomes a vamp prefer to prey on Heavy Soykaf users to get both his blood and caffeine fix seeing as he can't drink straight soykaf any longer? :P
... I don't think there are words to describe how I felt when I read that. Just ... wow.
Actually it is not so odd. Remember they are not true walking corpse, more just transistioned, and addictions can be as much psychological as physical. Eventually the Red Thirst pretty much eclipses everything else, but initially one would expect some of the old vices to linger a while.
What about mixing blood and soykaf? You can't digest soykaf, but you can digest blood. Maybe mixing the two will sneak it past your system's defenses?
Unfortunately I don't think a simple mix would go down well or stay down. If I throwup everytime I eat broccoli but not when I drink a milkshake I probably can't make a broccoli milkshake as I would probably still have the vomit reflex. Though maybe a certain ratio could be ingested without immediate reflux but a vamp would pay for it sooner or later I imagine.
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Let me get some caffeine in me and such-like, and I'll see if I can answer you effectively. Brain's still kinda marshmallow-like at the moment.
I take your silence for "Formulating a satisfactory answer takes way longer than I anticipated". :)
I don't think you can thin Soykaf with blood to make it Vampire-Compatible.
You could enrich a specimen with a lot of Soykaf before your meal, however.
Maybe you could inject raw caffeine into a bloodpack? Same deal. Patches could work.
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Okay, that didn't work out quite the way I'd planned....
For infected it says that this occurs at step 4 of character creation. This is after Magic is chosen, so does that mean that if I took Priority A for magic, and then took the Vampire quality - my magic and essence would go down to 1 each at the beginning of play? Or do I keep the 6 in each assuming that they have fed at some point before play starts.
When you're building a Strain I Infected character from scratch, you start with (starting Essence) - 1 and (starting Magic) - 1, with a minimum Magic of 1; you're assumed to have been Infected for a little while, though you're still a basic newbie and a little hungry. You can get that Magic point back using the rules on page 141; it's not really lost, just blocked off.
If your character isn't Awakened, your Magic is set at 1. I didn't make this as clear as I should have on page 141, and I'm sorry (though it is mentioned in the disease description for HMHVV Strain I on page 142; I should have at least pointed you there on page 141).
Strain II and III Infected start with their Essence and Magic at one less than when they started, per the rules on page 141. If they don't start out Awakened, then their Magic is also set at 1.
Seems to be a hefty tax there if not- might actually make aspected infected viable... actually, can you play an aspected Vampire?
Absolutely, if you choose to do so and that's where you put your Magic priority. I'd love to see some examples of aspected Infected if people wanna put up some of those builds. They sound like they could be fun.
That brings up my other main hurdle - the qualities that indicate that the subject awakens. Most give a discount for already being awakened; but for those that are not - what type of awakened would they be? Full magician, but with no spells and skills from the priority chart?
Only three of the Infected types automatically Awaken as some form of magician: mutaqua, nosferatu, and wendigos. That's why they offer a Karma discount if you're already magically active. I might have phrased that better; sorry.
None of the others automatically make you some sort of magic user, though there is a possibility of that. The chargen rules assume you were either Awakened going in, or the virus Awakened you as part of your back story. If you contract the virus during play, you might Awaken as a magic user at the GM's discretion, but I didn't have room to include specific rules for this. Kevin and I are pitching a "Way of the Infected" type e-book which would have a lot of the more advanced stuff...like Awakening as a result of Infection.
This is the part where i wish they included an example of character creation for an infected.
I wish we'd had space to do one, but Kevin and I were both up against it in terms of word-count. In retrospect, I wish we'd asked for a little more space, but then something else would have had to be cut.
That said, I'll try to put one together and post it here in the near future.
Would a Soykaf addict who gets Infected and becomes a vamp prefer to prey on Heavy Soykaf users to get both his blood and caffeine fix seeing as he can't drink straight soykaf any longer? :P
Well, that's how I'd do it, but your mileage may vary. I think I mentioned in fiction somewhere about an alcoholic vampire who prays on drunks, but I might have just imagined that.
I take your silence for "Formulating a satisfactory answer takes way longer than I anticipated". :)
The day became a touch more interesting than I would have liked.
I don't think you can thin Soykaf with blood to make it Vampire-Compatible.
You could enrich a specimen with a lot of Soykaf before your meal, however.
Maybe you could inject raw caffeine into a bloodpack? Same deal. Patches could work.
You're right about the mixing. I'm not positive about patches....
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Thanks Patrick, that really helps.
What you said is close to how I envisioned it working out. An infected e-book would be amazing! Especially if it included what's going on for infected in Azmondo and other parts of the world.
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I like to say the blood needs to be "seasoned" by whatever the vampire's choice poison is in the host before being extracted. For example, feeding on someone who is enjoying the kaf buzz, or novacoke, or whathaveyou. Some rich vampires no doubt keep stables of people they have fed in very particular ways. The foie gras for vampires and ghouls. Some upcoming fictions will detail something very much in that vein (OH THE PUNS, THEY ARE KILLING ME).
This opens up some interesting Addiction options for your Infected characters.
I'm currently working on a few Infected Builds or pregens that demonstrate some of the additional rules we're considering, see how they fly. Some of these ideas will greatly broaden the abilities of Infected, assuming the player wants to spend the karma and meets prereqs. This is all very drawing board stuff right now, though.
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I like to say the blood needs to be "seasoned" by whatever the vampire's choice poison is in the host before being extracted. For example, feeding on someone who is enjoying the kaf buzz, or novacoke, or whathaveyou.
Glad to see you and Patrick think it is a viable idea.
Some rich vampires no doubt keep stables of people they have fed in very particular ways. The foie gras for vampires and ghouls.
May have to add this to my MetaCooking section.
I had limited the concept of a vamp feeding off a particular subset (for example soykaf drinker) to just feeding an existing addiction, when it really is widening one's palate.
And for ghouls that is also a consideration as a number of compounds might affect the flavour of the meat and brain in particular.
Some upcoming fictions will detail something very much in that vein (OH THE PUNS, THEY ARE KILLING ME).
Yes, I can see we will get along just fine. :P
This opens up some interesting Addiction options for your Infected characters.
Jonesing for Junkies, gotta love it. ;)
I'm currently working on a few Infected Builds or pregens that demonstrate some of the additional rules we're considering, see how they fly. Some of these ideas will greatly broaden the abilities of Infected, assuming the player wants to spend the karma and meets prereqs. This is all very drawing board stuff right now, though.
Look forward to seeing these down the road.
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There is a minor point of contention regarding vampires and their immunity to toxins. I consider drugs and alcohol to be toxins (Not a political stance, purely a biological one), and while "immunity" really just means "super hard resistance to", it could theoretically take a preposterous number of lethally-dosed victims to get a vampire high or drunk or even kaf buzzed. Patrick and I have discussed making it possible for toxins to subvert that immunity if they are ingested through blood, in which case it works.
Some folks might argue the point. I'm not sure where we stand, officially, but I house-rule it along those lines. Vampires have a much easier time getting drunk with magic than packing poor sods full of synthahol.
Of course, there are certainly some Alchemists who will take the time to find new permutations of blood, infected and not, for their own benefit and that of interested clients...
And there will be plenty of other Infected who aren't concerned with the special effects of spiked blood as much as a more mundane concern for flavor. Some may prefer a metatype, or fitness, or a particular diet. Corn-fed beef is fantastic: might as well apply it to people, too. ;)
Any thoughts, Patrick?
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Corn-fed beef is fantastic: might as well apply it to people, too. ;)
Hah, that's a hilarious way of looking at it. Corn-fed human... Hehehe.
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***evil smirk and laugh***
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Does that mean soy-fed humans taste like tofu?
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You mean tasteless and stale? Yeah, probably....
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Hey, not all tofu is stale!
<.<
>.>
I can't argue about the tasteless part, though.
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I'm willing to bet vampires and other infected enjoy humans on an organic diet of real food. You are what you eat takes on whole new meaning. I always enjoy when things like that happen in shows and movies. "I rarely get to enjoy American cuisine, I was hoping for something a little more... corn-fed." "Just got one fresh off the bus. Honor student on her way to Cancun for Spring Break. Blonde, big-boned..."
(Consider yourself one Karma point richer in my games if you can name that quote, by the way. ;) )
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Blade: House of Chthon The TV Series, said by a Pure Born European vamp.
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Nice! +1 to you!
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Would a Soykaf addict who gets Infected and becomes a vamp prefer to prey on Heavy Soykaf users to get both his blood and caffeine fix seeing as he can't drink straight soykaf any longer? :P
... I don't think there are words to describe how I felt when I read that. Just ... wow.
Actually it is not so odd. Remember they are not true walking corpse, more just transistioned, and addictions can be as much psychological as physical. Eventually the Red Thirst pretty much eclipses everything else, but initially one would expect some of the old vices to linger a while.
What about mixing blood and soykaf? You can't digest soykaf, but you can digest blood. Maybe mixing the two will sneak it past your system's defenses?
Unfortunately I don't think a simple mix would go down well or stay down. If I throwup everytime I eat broccoli but not when I drink a milkshake I probably can't make a broccoli milkshake as I would probably still have the vomit reflex. Though maybe a certain ratio could be ingested without immediate reflux but a vamp would pay for it sooner or later I imagine.
For the record, they totally have this. I hate broccoli, but I drink this: http://www.nakedjuice.com/our-products/juice/green-machine
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Patrick, any input on this thread, and the lack of any mention of regeneration and silver vulnerability for shapeshifters? http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=19201.0
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I'll take a look, but I didn't have anything to do with the shifters and how they were written up, so no promises.
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For the record, they totally have this. I hate broccoli, but I drink this: http://www.nakedjuice.com/our-products/juice/green-machine
You sir, are a sick sick man :P
Course now I have to try this.
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Green Machine isn't all that bad.
Not all that good, either...
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I've seen worse.
Tasted, too.
Mix of kale and tea leaves with apples and....
Whatever. Bottle was green, actual drink was a greenish brown with small lumps inside.
Can't imagine a broccoli+kiwi smoothie to be that bad.
Or is it about inhabitants of new zealand, given that this thread is about infected?
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Forget drop bears at your own peril, my friend.
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Uncle Vlad's Blood Smoothies™
A blend of 5 Bloodlines with Added Ingredients
No Sugar or Sawdust Added
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Uncle Vlad's Blood Smoothies™
A blend of 5 Bloodlines with Added Ingredients
No Sugar or Sawdust Added
It's those added ingredients you have to watch out for. I heard there was a mistake in the bottling process at one of Uncle Vlad's bottling plants, and one of the workers accidentally got some dog mixed in the supply. Apparently Uncle Vlad's bottling plant also supplies the Old Yeller brand of Hell Hound food.
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Don't Hellhounds prefer Zebra?
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Some do, but I don't know that it's universal.
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Obviously the store-bought hellhound chow is sub-par, filled with additives and dog-meat. It's a conspiracy to give your canine companions prion diseases!
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Fresh Question:
If a 1.x Essence Char is infected by strain 2 or 3, will he drop to below 1 Essence and still gain 1 Magic?
If the above is a no, what happens instead?
If the above is a yes, how will that interact with later buying an exceptional attribute(Magic)?
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Let me ponder this over the weekend.
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Fresh Question:
If a 1.x Essence Char is infected by strain 2 or 3, will he drop to below 1 Essence and still gain 1 Magic?
If the above is a no, what happens instead?
If the above is a yes, how will that interact with later buying an exceptional attribute(Magic)?
My initial thought on that (though I'm no writer) would be no; you go down to 0 Magic pretty much immediately. At that point, your maximum Magic is now at 0, unless you've Initiated or had an unusually high Magic score already. That sort of precludes gaining a point in Magic, from my perspective.
On top of that, I'd personally not allow a person who has hit burn-out status to buy Exceptional Attribute (Magic). If they've burned out their magical capabilities with all that stuff, it's a little late to be making it exceptional (though, I'm generally against acquiring Exceptional Attributes after CC as a whole; that's more of potential you're born with than anything else). Initiation might be a possibility, I suppose. A little like trying to rig a pump into the well you fouled up with all that 'ware and such. Wait, nevermind on that:
Core Rulebook, page 325.
"Your initiate grade can never exceed your Magic attribute. If your Magic is reduced below your initiate grade, you lose an initiate grade right along with it."
Looks like you aren't able to Initiate at that point, if you have no Magic. Which makes sense, since burning out is (for the most part) a permanent thing.
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Well, that's the obvious route, but it might not be as easy.
begins with his pre-Infection Essence – 1, as shown
above. If he was already Awakened, he begins with his
original Magic – 1, to reflect his Essence loss (see Infection,
Magic, Resonance, and Essence, p. 141). If he
wasn’t Awakened, he begins with Magic 1.
At that place, it doesn't say that the Magic you start with is effected by your Essence if you didn't have any. Of course you could rule that as having to acquire "Exceptional Attribute(Magic)" at Infection and pay the Karma for it.
The interesting part is what other implications it has.
What happens if you're at 0 Magic?
Are you still dual-natured as a non-magical being?
Also, what if you were magically active with magic 1 before the infection? In that case by the rules you would start with 0 magic, which doesn't sound RAI in any case.
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Well, that's the obvious route, but it might not be as easy.
All Strain II and Strain III Infected begin play with an Essence of 5 and a Magic of 1, unless they were magically active before their Infection. In this case, they begin with a Magic rating one less than their original Magic; the Essence lost to the disease takes the same toll on Magic as it would at any other time.
At that place, it doesn't say that the Magic you start with is effected by your Essence if you didn't have any. Of course you could rule that as having to acquire "Exceptional Attribute(Magic)" at Infection and pay the Karma for it.
The interesting part is what other implications it has.
What happens if you're at 0 Magic?
Are you still dual-natured as a non-magical being?
Also, what if you were magically active with magic 1 before the infection? In that case by the rules you would start with 0 magic, which doesn't sound RAI in any case.
You missed the bolded portion I added in.
If you're at 0 Magic, it should just bust down your natural maximum a point, which is a part of what Essence loss already does. Unless you've chopped off or added a LOT of bits and pieces, it shouldn't be that bad.
As far as being dual-natured goes, the answer is on the same page, 141 of Run Faster;
The Infected are, by definition, Awakened and have a Magic Rating, though not all are necessarily magicians or adepts. Most of their powers are magical in nature. Should their Magic Rating ever be reduced to 0, either temporarily or permanently, they lose the use of any of their powers except for Armor, any Enhanced Senses, and Natural Weapons.
So, you lose out on being dual-natured.
I'd definitely say that's rules-as-intended, as they specifically mentioned it in your quote from page 141. If your magic is weak or nascent, the trauma of the disease (in regards to Strain II & III) would reduce your Magic to 0, just as the Essence loss drops your maximum Magic a point as well. It doesn't mean you can't raise your Magic and get it back, provided your Magic's maximum hasn't been dropped to 0 yet.
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Well, that's just weird.
If you're not awakened, you start with magic 1, if you were, just barely, you start with 0?
Naw, I don't think that's intended. Why wouldn't mundane characters start with 0 and have to raise it then?
Sides, not being dual natured has some massive advantages for non-magicians, namely astral beings not being able to pick on you with impunity from a few meters away. I could see people doing that on purpose to create mundane Infected. I know I would. 8)
As for the first part, I didn't miss that part, the thing is that that line and the one I quoted contradict themselves.
As it is written, you don't gain magic, then lose Essence, you lose Essence, then gain magic. At least that's the order it is written.
Given that other infected can overcap their essence or temporarily raise it, I'm not so sure about the rules that normally apply applying here. I mean, that's why I ask. ;)
Edit: I want to point out that I agree that it should just be 0 magic. I'm just not so sure.
Edit2: Thinking more about it, I suppose it's like with other maximums; You gain one magic, limit is 0, you have 0.
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Well, Patrick?
Is MijRai correct, or is there more to it? (Or alternatively, it's another fringe case that needs debating, in which case, no pressure, I'm not in a hurry. I'm just curious. :D)
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This has not been a good few days for me to ponder this sort of thing; sorry for the delay. My gut tells me at the moment that the mundane getting a magic point comes after the disease does its thing, so he'd be at a fraction of a point of Essence with Magic 1; it would seem kind of a dick move on my part to say otherwise. Let me bounce it off a few people. But go ahead and remind me in a few days if I go dark again.
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Sure thing. And thanks for the tremendous effort you put into these things. Appreciate it. :)
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... Let me bounce it off a few people. But go ahead and remind me in a few days if I go dark again.
Hey Patrick, a friendly reminder. 8)
To Sum up:
You already theorized that a mundane individual dropping below 1 essence still receives one magic point.
What happens if the individual was awakened before?
What happens with a magic 1 character that doesn't drop to below 1 essence?
What will happen if a Magic 1, Essence <1 Character buys the Exceptional Magic Attribute?
What about Initiation?
>.> <.< You asked for a reminder.
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I did, but I don't know when I'm going to be able to get back to you on this. I'm suddenly facing a couple of deadlines on projects, both of interest to this forum and one specifically of interest to this discussion.
I'll do what I can, though, as I'm able, but I might be going, if not dark, then dim for a while.
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Well, thanks for that quasi-announcement. ^^
No worries, I appreciate your effort. Had you just said you got no time in the foreseeable future, that's already more than not saying anything at all. 8)
Thanks so far, and best of luck for your work. !
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Less announcement, more sudden realization....
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Less announcement, more sudden realization....
Funny, the wife says the same thing. ???