Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Ravensong on <01-07-15/2307:24>
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Currently using the Ares Desert Strike with APDS rounds. Looking at Run and Gun's Terracotta AM-47 and Barret Model 122. Are these worth the expense? Any recommendations?
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I would say the Barret Model 122 is. For raw power*, you just can't beat it. The ability to have -10 AP or more if you use Bulls-Eye/Double Tap is amazing. Granted, you can get away with the Ares Desert Strike for a while, and if you already have it, then you probably shouldn't be in a rush to upgrade to a Barret Model 122. However, as an overall purchase if you are in need of a sniper rifle, it's amazing.
*Not raw DV; it has the highest DV + AP combination outside of launchers or the Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle
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They are really expensive, but if you have the money why not? The AM-47 does higher damage against normal opposition, but killing normal targets with any Sniper Rifle is already easy enough. If you are trying to kill targets with heavy armor (especially if it's hardened), the Barret really shines with the higher AP combined with the Bull's Eye called shot. The Barret and the AA-16 are the two things that really make Longarms worthwhile, everything else is only a placeholder.
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*Not raw DV; it has the highest DV + AP combination outside of launchers or the Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle
Actually, the Thunderstruck uses Assault Cannon ammo, which means no APDS. A Barret with APDS has a DV + AP of 24 while the Thunderstruck has only 23. The Bull's Eye called shot is also APDS only, which means SR5's Thunderstruck is a joke compared to a real sniper rifle. The AP nerf from SR4 to SR5 was needed but ended up being extremely harsh.
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I'd say go for a Remington 950. Since it's more of a sport rifle, it's easier to carry that one around with you (back window of your vehicle anyone?).
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I'm a huge fan of the Crockett, personally. Less power, but more utility.
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The Crockett is really nice against weak targets because of the higher hitting chance from bursts. The best way to measure the effectiveness of a Sniper Rifle is, IMO, the chance of dropping the target with only one action. With a dice pool of 20, APDS ammo, smartlink and personalized grip against a police officer or security guard with 7 defense dice, body 4 and armor 12, the chance of dropping the target with only one burst from a Crockett is 94.3% while one shot from an Ares Desert Strike gives 93.6%. In this situation, the Barret is tied with the Crockett, which ends up being better because of lower cost and higher chance of hitting the target with a lower damage than necessary instead of not hitting at all. Using a complex action to shoot SA bursts (or long bursts with the Crockett) instead of Take Aim + shoot increases the chance to 97.8% (Crockett) vs. 96.8% (Barret) showing again how the Crockett can be the better option even when compared with much more expensive guns.
Against a street samurai with 12 defense dice , a 24 dice soaking pool and a condition monitor size of 11, the Barret has a chance of 69.7%, the Desert Strike has 51.6% and the Crockett has only 47.3%. I know that dropping a street sam shouldn't be trivial, but the Crockett is clearly a bad option in this situation. In this situation, Bull's Eye can be good only IF you have Sharpshooter or Strive for Perfection. With Sharpshooter, the chance of dropping the target with Bull's Eye is 80.5% using the Barret, and 69.8% with the Crockett. Against this target, the Barret is slightly better than the AM-47.
Using the Tank archetype from the Core Rulebook as a target we can see why the Barret is worth every nuyen. With a Bull's Eye Burst and the Sharpshooter quality, the chance of dropping the target with the Barret is 56.7% while the AM-47 gives 43.7% and the Crockett has only 12.4%.
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Outside of military engagements I highly doubt any weapon is worth the immense costs. My runners need to drop their weapons and walk away quite often, I don't want them to cry over lost fortunes too. Put on top the rare and highly illegal nature of the beast, inner city use tends to attract massive investigative power.
Drop a person with a gun and it's just another number on a high-stacked pile of gun-related deaths. Use military equipment and law enforcement suddenly sees a unique opportunity to crack down on terrorism while gaining good PR.
If you keep in mind that you cannot defend against shots you're not aware of, a lot of sports rifles become quite deadly without the need to spend 40K. Just pick a spot, aim and shoot.
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If you are going for longarms you really need to go all-in. If you have longarms but only uses restricted guns you have selected the wrong skill. An AK-97 is smaller, does higher average damage against most targets when you factor in the chance of hitting, can be used for suppressive fire and is covered by a skill that also gives you acess to good sidearms, freeing some skill points.
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While I see the worth of a true sniper rifle, I fency a pimped Crockett over most of them for characters that are not extremely specialised snipers. Of course "sharpshooter" is a good quality and maxing skills and specilisations will give you immense offensive capabilites with a sniper rifle, but as the military found out: A good designated marksman rifle (like the Crockett resembles) will do the job in 80% of the cases for just over 20% of the price if you max out both (the Barret needs a scope, the EBR a smartgun system etc.). If you need to knock out really up-armored streetsamurais or a target behind armored glas, then you'll need a true sniper rifle and shouldn't spare the costs. Otherwise you might not earn your money. But the flexibility of a designated marksman rifle with semi-auto firing capabilites is just immense. It can easily double as assault rifle and sniper rifles for characters that are neither maxed out streetsamurai or snipers themselves, but have a high Longarms skill. As you can undermount a grenade launcher, any character with this setup can give support to the group in most isntances.
I run my face in a similiar way, though he has a Ares Alpha and an AS-7 for support. But he deals massive damage in the first round of combat. And we all know, the first should be the last. ;)
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While I see the worth of a true sniper rifle, I fency a pimped Crockett over most of them for characters that are not extremely specialised snipers. Of course "sharpshooter" is a good quality and maxing skills and specilisations will give you immense offensive capabilites with a sniper rifle, but as the military found out: A good designated marksman rifle (like the Crockett resembles) will do the job in 80% of the cases for just over 20% of the price if you max out both (the Barret needs a scope, the EBR a smartgun system etc.). If you need to knock out really up-armored streetsamurais or a target behind armored glas, then you'll need a true sniper rifle and shouldn't spare the costs. Otherwise you might not earn your money. But the flexibility of a designated marksman rifle with semi-auto firing capabilites is just immense. It can easily double as assault rifle and sniper rifles for characters that are neither maxed out streetsamurai or snipers themselves, but have a high Longarms skill. As you can undermount a grenade launcher, any character with this setup can give support to the group in most isntances.
I run my face in a similiar way, though he has a Ares Alpha and an AS-7 for support. But he deals massive damage in the first round of combat. And we all know, the first should be the last. ;)
The Barret has no need for a scope; Vision Magnification in eyes, glasses, or contacts will do the trick. An EBR can take an External Smartgun for a mere 200 nuyen. The main problem with the cost is not the accessories, but the base weapon itself. Some of them have base values at 20,000+ nuyen, while things like the Remington have it at 950, IIRC.
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Ursus Maior
Technically, if you're using the modern term "designated marksman", any assault rifle in the Shadowrun setting will really do.
Modern day usage of the term DM (at least as far as the US Marine Corps is concerned) requires the designated marksman to be accurate out to 600 yards or so, and designated marksmen are meant to supplement a fireteam and do not in any way, shape, or form replace scout snipers. Last I heard ( 2006-2007) US Marines still carried the DMR (a variant of the M14 semi-automatic rifle chambered for 7.62x51mm NATO ammunition accurate to 800 yards or so), though I've heard that this was (recently?) replaced by something called an EMR (which I believe is a more modern version of the M14).
My point is that if you're going for a designated marksman role in Shadowrun setting, you could just as easily carry an assault rifle and perform quite well. The Crockett EBR straddles the line between the needs of a modern-day rifleman and a sniper, mostly because of the ranges it is accurate to. A modern day designated marksman would not be expected to engage targets at ranges greater than 1000 yards.
As for the OPs question about longarms in Shadowrun; I'm not really sure sniper rifles, or more accurately long-range precision rifles, are warranted much at all. How often does one engage ones targets at ranges beyond 550m, the extreme range for the Assault Rifle category? If you are frequently engaging such targets then sniper rifles are for you; otherwise, I'd posit that assault rifles can be just as effective.
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Ursus Maior
Technically, if you're using the modern term "designated marksman", any assault rifle in the Shadowrun setting will really do.
Modern day usage of the term DM (at least as far as the US Marine Corps is concerned) requires the designated marksman to be accurate out to 600 yards or so, and designated marksmen are meant to supplement a fireteam and do not in any way, shape, or form replace scout snipers. Last I heard ( 2006-2007) US Marines still carried the DMR (a variant of the M14 semi-automatic rifle chambered for 7.62x51mm NATO ammunition accurate to 800 yards or so), though I've heard that this was (recently?) replaced by something called an EMR (which I believe is a more modern version of the M14).
My point is that if you're going for a designated marksman role in Shadowrun setting, you could just as easily carry an assault rifle and perform quite well. The Crockett EBR straddles the line between the needs of a modern-day rifleman and a sniper, mostly because of the ranges it is accurate to. A modern day designated marksman would not be expected to engage targets at ranges greater than 1000 yards.
As for the OPs question about longarms in Shadowrun; I'm not really sure sniper rifles, or more accurately long-range precision rifles, are warranted much at all. How often does one engage ones targets at ranges beyond 550m, the extreme range for the Assault Rifle category? If you are frequently engaging such targets then sniper rifles are for you; otherwise, I'd posit that assault rifles can be just as effective.
Unless you don't want to take a larger penalty at shooting for that range. For a Sniper rifle, 351m to 800m is a -3, instead of a -6 for 351-550. An assault rifle does not actually fill the DMR role, mechanically or thematically. For that, you should be taking a 'sniper rifle', even if it's the EBR or a SVD (which you can find in the Assassin's Primer).
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Great contributions. Most deeply appreciated.
My current character is Dwarf Mercenary. Primary weapon is the AA-16 with under-barrel grenade launcher. The Ares Desert Strike was a backup weapon. Our team's primary sniper just got "forcibly retired" and my character is stepping up to take on that role as needed. Have had to drop weapons on a run before. And already KE has been a major pain in the ass. Running around with military grade weapons in Seattle is not fun, as this Ex-Merc is coming to realize.
Really like the Barret, but cringe at the cost, and am concerned about having to leave such a prime weapon behind.
The Onotari JP-K50, very similar to Crocket EBR, is a possible purchase, as is the Remington 950.
Remington: Hard to beat a 2,000 nuyen base price weapon that can have a valid license, and still reliably take down targets from long/extra long range, even if it ends up taking more than one shot to do it.
JP-K50: Can double as an assault rifle, mount a grenade launcher, and slightly cheaper that the Desert Strike. Could almost replace the AA-16 as a primary weapon, except that the auto-shot gun's base cost is only 1,600 nuyen, making it painless to replace if lost on a run.
Thanks again for the guidance. Rock on and good running, Omae.
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MijRai
I disagree with that assessment as both types of rifles can mount vision magnification scopes, reducing said penalties to -1 and -3 (assuming no other environmental modifiers, of course). Designated marksman to my mind is not a defined role in Shadowrun because the range categories are too absolute; there's no place for a mid-range rifle on it's own when both assault rifles and sniper rifles can fire accurately to 550m (~600 yards), the range at which modern designated marksmen are expected to be able to engage an enemy.
My opinion only, of course, but if my choice as a "designated marksman" was between the Automatics and Longarms skill, my choice would be Automatics for the higher versatility.
As for the OPs question, I'd say that the answer to your question depends on the type of opposition frequently faced and the ranges you engage your targets at. If the Barret can accomplish something that is currently lacking in your arsenal, the choice should be clear. If not, then it may not be a cost effective choice.
Ravensong
I love the idea of a dwarf carrying a JP-K50. That'd be my choice for sure! :)
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Herr Brackhaus, its a good point. My character went for Long Arms for the Shotgun [close/mid range] and Sniper [long/extra long range], and the whole character build supports this.
With a dedicated sniper taking down targets from long range, and my character entering in for breaching, our team had profound command of our field of ops with very small numbers. Minus the sniper, now our team is feeling the lack of cover.
Our sniper was taking down hard targets with one shot. Being an adept was a key ingredient to his supreme success. Not going to be able to replace him, just looking to fill in the role in such a way that I can reliably take down targets within the first round of engagement.
Cheers mate. This dwarf loves the big guns.
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MijRai, good point on Assault vs Long Arms. Indeed the Barret may be a key tool to take down spirits and hard targets when every shot counts.
Ursus, love the focus on effective weapon to cost analysis. Very important for runners to maximize the profits of their runs.
... And we all know, the first should be the last. ;)
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Ursus Maior
Technically, if you're using the modern term "designated marksman", any assault rifle in the Shadowrun setting will really do. [cut down for readability, UM]
D'accord in most points. The EBR of Shadowrun ist essentially the M39 EMR of the Marines, which is a modernized, precision version of the M14 Enhanced Battle Rifle, itself a more modern version of the M14. And yes, I think a designated marksman can simply use a precise version of an assault rifle in real life as much as in SR. As I mentioned, I'm running a face doing exactly that. But, and it's a small one, the extra range can give you several benefits. Although you might not need the max range, you profit from larger range increments from the start. While most battles in corp facilities might be below 25 meters, 50 meters for +/- 0 range modifier ist quite nice and 51-350 meters for -1 die should solve everything you usually have to engage. Modern rifle combat rarely goes beyond 200 meters, anythin beyond 400 meters is barely heard of. Except Afghanistan, which rattled quite a few.
What ails me most about the Run & Gun modification rules is the stupid idea that no-one is desgining after market parts for weapons like new barrels (enhanced precision), muzzle breaks (less recoil), new bolt carrier groups (less recoil, change SA to BF or FA) and especially larger magazines (goddamit!). In an age of 3D-printing being a standard technology, an EBR with an after market barrel, built-in smartgun and a 50-shot drum magazine should not be unobtainable, but "add evening express?" for every dealer.
In fact, depending on where you live today, that would be quite normal. But SR has failed to get how online markets work for the last 20 years. Which lead them to design guns that always do certain things well and others doing other things well, but none just doing what a customer expect a gun to do for a certain price. The idea that someone would construct a rifle like the EBR with a definately fixed bullet capacity is ludicrous ever since detachable box magazines were invented. In my opinion there should be weapon contruction rules again like in SR3.
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Depends, you already have AA-12 for close range and suppressive fire. If you are worried about the coppers and legality, then pick up one of the sport rifles either the Remington or River out of the core or the the actual sport rifles out of gun h(e)aven 3. Some of them hit in the low teens and have AP of around -4.
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The key point to consider when comparing the modern designated marksman class of rifle that the military has found to be very useful, is that in SR you are much more likely to be engaging elite targets with heavy armor and potentially transhuman or magical enhancements. The hardest target a modern designated marksman might be reliably expected to encounter is a base-line human with body armor or a light vehicle. ISIS doesn't have a whole lot of 10-foot-tall dudes that can wear more armor than a light tank and carry and fire heavy machine guns without straining. (Russia claims to have a few, but several of them are actually just shaved bears, and one is the Prime Minister.)
If a hard target needs to be taken down at great range, the US military still has full-blown sniper rifles at its disposal, and individuals trained to use them effectively. Shadowrunners are essentially freelance Special Forces, and their targets are usually as dangerous as they are if not more so, and so while an assault rifle might be effective for some things, nothing beats an actual sniper rifle for actual sniping.
They're fairly versatile too: You can throw Gel or SnS rounds in it and gain an edge in negotiations, load it with APDS to take down hard targets, or explosive rounds to really make a point.
Also, because they're both Longarms, if anyone manages to sneak up on your sniper they will be naturally skilled with shotguns as well.
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Great contributions. Most deeply appreciated.
My current character is Dwarf Mercenary. Primary weapon is the AA-16 with under-barrel grenade launcher. The Ares Desert Strike was a backup weapon. Our team's primary sniper just got "forcibly retired" and my character is stepping up to take on that role as needed. Have had to drop weapons on a run before. And already KE has been a major pain in the ass. Running around with military grade weapons in Seattle is not fun, as this Ex-Merc is coming to realize.
Really like the Barret, but cringe at the cost, and am concerned about having to leave such a prime weapon behind.
The Onotari JP-K50, very similar to Crocket EBR, is a possible purchase, as is the Remington 950.
Remington: Hard to beat a 2,000 nuyen base price weapon that can have a valid license, and still reliably take down targets from long/extra long range, even if it ends up taking more than one shot to do it.
JP-K50: Can double as an assault rifle, mount a grenade launcher, and slightly cheaper that the Desert Strike. Could almost replace the AA-16 as a primary weapon, except that the auto-shot gun's base cost is only 1,600 nuyen, making it painless to replace if lost on a run.
Thanks again for the guidance. Rock on and good running, Omae.
Dwarf: 3.5 to 4.5 feet tall on average.
Barrett 122: 6 feet (aprox)
I can just picture your dwarf, running all out, leaping up the stairs to get to his sniper blind, lugging a rifle longer then he is :D
(But yes,m Game wise, you can do it.... just a funny mental picture for me)
All the rifles have their place.
The Barrett is more of an anti material rifle then a "sniper rifle". In Shadowrun, there is little difference between the two.... Just like there is little difference between a armored truck and an armored Troll. (Well, that's not true. The armored truck generally doesn't shoot back!). But, it's not an investment you want to walk away from if the run goes sideways.
The Remmington 950, while only a sport rifle, is at least a throw away rifle that won't break your bank, and won't land you in a KE squad car on a random stop. But, you probably won't drop an armored target in a single shot either....
The Desert Strike is a good choice, I would stick with that one for now, until you actually NEED to upgrade the weapon... And you will know when that time is. (it usually starts with "Hmmm... hardened armor...")
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What ails me most about the Run & Gun modification rules is the stupid idea that no-one is desgining after market parts for weapons like new barrels (enhanced precision), muzzle breaks (less recoil), new bolt carrier groups (less recoil, change SA to BF or FA) and especially larger magazines (goddamit!). In an age of 3D-printing being a standard technology, an EBR with an after market barrel, built-in smartgun and a 50-shot drum magazine should not be unobtainable, but "add evening express?" for every dealer.
In fact, depending on where you live today, that would be quite normal. But SR has failed to get how online markets work for the last 20 years. Which lead them to design guns that always do certain things well and others doing other things well, but none just doing what a customer expect a gun to do for a certain price. The idea that someone would construct a rifle like the EBR with a definately fixed bullet capacity is ludicrous ever since detachable box magazines were invented. In my opinion there should be weapon contruction rules again like in SR3.
This. Especially the part about magazines. I mean, c'mon, this is a game where "spare clip" is actually an item separate from spare ammo, and yet, you can't buy bigger ones. And when acquiring more dakka IS an option, it's a WEAPON (rather than magazine) modification, with a ridiculous "25% or a drum(which, for some reason, is such a radical mod that you need an entire facility) limitation. ARRRRGH!
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I'd say go for a Remington 950. Since it's more of a sport rifle, it's easier to carry that one around with you (back window of your vehicle anyone?).
Huge fan of this.
Scope & Silencer & this thing does what you need for a MUCH more acceptable price.
Its my default Starter Sniper Rifle.
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I'd say go for a Remington 950. Since it's more of a sport rifle, it's easier to carry that one around with you (back window of your vehicle anyone?).
Huge fan of this.
Scope & Silencer & this thing does what you need for a MUCH more acceptable price.
Its my default Starter Sniper Rifle.
Aye, I've switched to it as my go to as well. If you have the money though, the Barret is awesome.
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. If you have the money though, the Barret is awesome.
Wasn't disputing that at all. Its a beast. I just like the 950 for its efficiency & legality.
The Barret is a clear long term goal weapon for sure.
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I don't understand what so many people like about the 950. It is a really nice backup weapon for situations when you can't have your real sniper rifle with you if you already have longarms as your main combat skill. If your real sniper rifle is the Remington,however, you shouldn't have Longarms in the first place. Longarms x Automatics is a trade-off between raw power and versatility, but all restricted longarms in the game are less effective than a restricted assault rifle when you factor in the chance of actually hitting the target. Going for Longarms instead of Automatics and only picking restricted guns is a sacrifice that some people are willing to take if it makes sense for the character concept, but it is a clearly bad option from a mathematical standpoint and shouldn't be discussed as if it wasn't.
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Please tell me what is "mathematically bad" about the Remington 950? It has the same AP, 1 less DV, and 12% of the cost (without accessories) of an Ares Desert Strike. It's also not a ridiculously high Availability that is also Forbidden, which would likely get you immediately arrested. It also is only SS, and has a clip of 5 (which is more than enough; I have had a character who has blown up 4 characters with 4 shots). Sure, you can't use a SAB or Bulls Eye/Double Tap, but it is not "mathematically bad".
The literally only 4 Sniper Rifles that are better than it are the Ares Desert Strike, Ranger Arms SM-5, Terracotta Arms AM-47, and Barret Model 122. Out of those, only the Desert Strike is available at character creation, and it has 1 more DV, 9 more clip size, and the ability to shoot SA. All for the low, low, price of 833% of the cost of the Remington 950; as well as a Forbidden Availability. The Cavalier Arms Crockett EBR is arguably comparable. You lose 1 AP (arguably the reason for using a Sniper Rifle), get the ability to shoot SA/BF, and 15 more clip size. Also for the low price of 490% of the cost of the Remington 950, and a Forbidden Availability.
That's like saying that going for Automatics and only picking Restricted Guns (you know, the ones you can carry around with you and won't get arrested and attacked on the spot for) is bad. It's not good or bad, just different.
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I didn't say the Remington is bad. What I said was that it is less effective than restricted assault rifles. Going for Automatics and only using restricted guns isn't bad. Going for Longarms and only using restricted guns is strictly worse than doing the same thing with Automatics, giving you both less power and less versatility. When I'm comparing guns I don't really compare the stats directly because this is a flawed metric. The way I compare guns is simulating the possible effects against different targets using anydice scripts.
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Simulating the possible effects is the same as comparing the stats. You are simply taking the scenarios and playing them out to decide whether the tradeoff is worth it. If you didn't compare the stats, you wouldn't have different simulations, and you wouldn't get different results. That still doesn't really answer the question.
What is less effective about the Remington 950 vs. Restricted Assault Rifles compared to the Ares Desert Strike vs. Restricted Assault Rifles? Those are really about the only two you are going to look at for this argument, as they are probably the best two Sniper Rifles at character creation. I have no idea how to use anydice scripts, but I would be happy if you would plug it in for me and give me a reason why the Remington is so much worse than an Ares Desert Strike that the Remington is not even worth the lower cost and Availability.
My argument is that the Remington 950 is worth it for the Lower Availability and Cost, even though it has 1 less DV, a smaller clip, and can only shoot SS. The Ares Desert Strike is good, but the Remington is worth buying. Your argument, it seems to me, is that the Remington 950 isn't worth it. I just want to understand why you think it isn't.
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I didn't say the Remington is bad. What I said was that it is less effective than restricted assault rifles. Going for Automatics and only using restricted guns isn't bad. Going for Longarms and only using restricted guns is strictly worse than doing the same thing with Automatics, giving you both less power and less versatility. When I'm comparing guns I don't really compare the stats directly because this is a flawed metric. The way I compare guns is simulating the possible effects against different targets using anydice scripts.
And into your rolls for damage, did you include the rolls for the randomized number of police drones and check points scanning for weapons?
Or, what happens if and when you DO get searched?
That (F) in availability means forbidden, which means, no, YOU are not allowed to have it. And no, your "I'm uber snowflake special forces" rating 8 fake SIN isn't going to cut it. You get caught, you go directly to holding while people at a muck higher pay grade then the patrol officer decide your fate. Basically that (F) stands for F**ked once it's spotted.
That (R) availability weapon on the other hand? While it isn't going to make the officer happy to see it, as long as your are permitted up, he can't stop you for more then an extra pass of your SIN.... Nor would he, as depending on what your SIN says (you have a good reason for needing that R weapon right?), you could get him in hot water if "you" think he is prejudging you. (KE doesn't stand for Racism, they want to hold onto the Seattle contract, and recognize that public image matters!).
I have seen more then my fair share of runs end in wild mayhem before they ever got to the jobsite exactly because of spotted forbidden equipment. While as entertaining as going on merry gun sprees through city streets with LE in hot pursuit, lobbing grenades at helicopters, and stealing cars from blue hair old ladies is, it does get boring after the 25th time :(
Also, the best gun for the job, is usually the easiest to get to the jobsite.
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8-bit
I would challenge the "restricted weapon that you can carry anywhere", but for all weapon types. Carrying a Restricted AR is just as bad as carrying a Restriced Sniper Rifle in pretty much any area with a solid police presence in my opinion. Carrying ARs and Sniper Rifles openly in anything C-rated or higher would definitely cause increased scrutiny in my game, and while legal with a solid license I'd most certainly have such a character stopped by cops occasionally.
I'd also like to point out that this discussion hardly revolves around character generation weapons; in fact, the OP mentions choosing between a Barrett and an AM-47.
So when faket15 says that if your primary longarm, which for the purposes of this discussion is supposed to take down hard targets after all, is a Restricted one you're not doing your primary role effectively and might as well take a Restricted assault rifle, I tend to agree. If the only choice is a Restricted AR or Sniper Rifle, I'm choosing the AR for it versatility and power. Even with a lower base AP all restricted ARs can use Bulls-Eye to dramatically increase AP values, at which point the AR is outperforming the equivalent sniper rifles in every field except range.
Sniper Rifles really shine when used against spirits and hardened armored, from long distance, with good setup. Like the credit card ad goes; for everything else, there's Automatics.
My opinion only, of course.
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What ails me most about the Run & Gun modification rules is the stupid idea that no-one is desgining after market parts for weapons like new barrels (enhanced precision), muzzle breaks (less recoil), new bolt carrier groups (less recoil, change SA to BF or FA) and especially larger magazines (goddamit!). In an age of 3D-printing being a standard technology, an EBR with an after market barrel, built-in smartgun and a 50-shot drum magazine should not be unobtainable, but "add evening express?" for every dealer.
You took from the lack of mod rules for these things that no one is making or designing these components? I took it to mean that we don't have rules for those things. I also think it's super simple to house rule some new muzzles, barrels, and magazines. Here's a sample:
Longer barrel, 200･
Increase range by 10%
+1 to the weapon's concealability modifier
Shorter barrel, 100･
Decrease range by 10%
-1 to the weapon's concealability modifier
Large capacity magazine, 100･
Double magazine capacity
+1 to the weapon's concealability modifier
Voila.
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8-bit
I would challenge the "restricted weapon that you can carry anywhere", but for all weapon types. Carrying a Restricted AR is just as bad as carrying a Restriced Sniper Rifle in pretty much any area with a solid police presence in my opinion. Carrying ARs and Sniper Rifles openly in anything C-rated or higher would definitely cause increased scrutiny in my game, and while legal with a solid license I'd most certainly have such a character stopped by cops occasionally.
You are correct in pointing out my flaw there. Here's my revision.
You can carry this stuff in a duffel bag or in your car, and if a cop comes up and checks you, they will likely let you go with a warning; perhaps they will escort you back to your property and make sure you drop it off. Also, something like the Remington 950 is considered a Sporting Rifle, so if it's your "hunting rifle", they will probably let you off. If you show up with a Forbidden Weapon (Heavens forbid that you have an Availability 10+ Forbidden Weapon), you don't get a warning. You get arrested immediately, and if you appear to reach for anything, probably get shot preemptively.
I'd also like to point out that this discussion hardly revolves around character generation weapons; in fact, the OP mentions choosing between a Barrett and an AM-47.
I'm aware of that. The thing is, nearly everyone who has recommended the Remington 950 (note that I said nearly everyone) agrees that the Barret Model 122 is a vastly superior and good choice, if you have the money. What faket15 said, was, and I quote:
I don't understand what so many people like about the 950. It is a really nice backup weapon for situations when you can't have your real sniper rifle with you if you already have longarms as your main combat skill. If your real sniper rifle is the Remington,however, you shouldn't have Longarms in the first place.
This discussion is about the Remington 950 usability as a Primary firearm. Considering that the obviously superior choices are banned at character creation, it makes sense to compare apples to apples (chargen weapons to chargen weapons) rather than apples to oranges (chargen weapons to high availability post-chargen weapons).
So when faket15 says that if your primary longarm, which for the purposes of this discussion is supposed to take down hard targets after all, is a Restricted one you're not doing your primary role effectively and might as well take a Restricted assault rifle, I tend to agree. If the only choice is a Restricted AR or Sniper Rifle, I'm choosing the AR for it versatility and power. Even with a lower base AP all restricted ARs can use Bulls-Eye to dramatically increase AP values, at which point the AR is outperforming the equivalent sniper rifles in every field except range.
We could talk about why you would go with Assault Rifles over Sniper Rifles for a really short time. Because, you know what? I agree. Assault Rifles are superior to Sniper Rifles. The Automatics group is the best set of Firearms, it covers all ranges and is super versatile.
What he was saying is that the Remington 950 is a "mathematically bad" choice to use, and I don't understand what he means or where he is getting this. I mean, it being mathematically bad is sort of relative, but if we consider it as separate, he was basically implying that there is never a reason to take the Remington 950 over an Assault Rifle, except for roleplaying reasons, because it is so much mathematically worse. I said it wasn't that much worse that it warranted a never-use status.
Sniper Rifles really shine when used against spirits and hardened armored, from long distance, with good setup. Like the credit card ad goes; for everything else, there's Automatics.
Pretty much.
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You misunderstood my argument (maybe I wasn't clear enough. English is not my first language). The Remington IS worth it and IMO, everyone who has Longarms should have one as a backup weapon. My problem is that people look at the stats and think it is much better than it really is and start to think about it as if it was a good main gun, which it is not. The scripts use the stats as a base, but they are much better then looking at the book and saying "this gun is good" because they show exactly what are the effects of things like better firing modes and also show that even small differences in stats can have huge effects against some targets. Scripts can also be used to get data that is hard to get in other ways, like what is the chance of one-shotting a target or breaching through hardened armor.
Comparing the 950 and the AK-97 with a dice pool of 18 and regular ammo against a police officer or security guard, the chance of dropping the target with a burst from an AK-97 is 75.23%. With the 950 and Take Aim + Shoot, the result is better (79.67%). With APDS the guns are almost tied: 89.93% with the AK-97 versus 89.58% with the 950. In this same situation, the Desert Strike gives you a chance o 95.1%, the Crockett gives a chance of 97.11% and the Ares Alpha gives 95.47%. This doesn't seem to be a big difference, but this is basically the weakest opposition you will probably fight.
Against elite corporate security (or street samurai), you are looking at really low chances with regular ammo (15.25% with the AK-97 and 19.89% with the 950), which means average damage becomes a metric as good or even better than the chance of dropping the target with one shot. In this metric, the AK-97 wins with 7.47 vs 6.62. With APDS, the chances become 28.22% with the AK-97 (average damage of 8.78) and 32.02% with the 950 (average damage of 7.63). If the guy with the AK-97 has Sharpshooter, he can use Bull's-Eye Burst to increase his chance to 37.37% and his average damage to 9.46. Without the quality, it doesn't really make a difference.
Against the same elite corporate security guy, a Desert Strike with APDS has a chance of 47.32% and average damage of 9.01. Using Bull's Eye without Sharpshooter you have 57.83%, but lower average damage (8.33). With Sharpshooter you have 67.56% and average damage of 9.83.
Compared with the Desert Strike, the Crockett has a lower chance of dropping the target (61.33% with Bull's Eye + Sharpshooter and 43.17% without) but a higher average damage (10.29 with Bull's-Eye + Sharpshooter and 9.44 without). Comparing Crockett vs Alpha ends up basically the same way. The Alpha does more damage, but the Crockett has a higher chance of dropping the target.
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I apologize is I offended you in any way.
Thank you for explaining your reasoning, what you said makes much more sense now.
I still feel like the Remington is a decent Primary weapon, at least until you can get a "real" sniper Rifle (like the Terracotta or Barret), and Longarms are still useful for Shotguns. Also, Elite Corporate Security is not that common, but common enough that your argument is valid. I can't argue with the math though. Kind of amazed the Remington 950 has that low of a chance to OHKO someone; although this is with only 18 dice. You have definitely convinced me that the Remington is not as good as I thought it was.
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You took from the lack of mod rules for these things that no one is making or designing these components? I took it to mean that we don't have rules for those things. I also think it's super simple to house rule some new muzzles, barrels, and magazines. Here's a sample:
Longer barrel, 200･
Increase range by 10%
+1 to the weapon's concealability modifier
Shorter barrel, 100･
Decrease range by 10%
-1 to the weapon's concealability modifier
Large capacity magazine, 100･
Double magazine capacity
+1 to the weapon's concealability modifier
Voila.
Thanks, Namikaze, indeed I could do these things on my own in a minute. But not only do houserules need to fit the mood of the game fluffwise, they also need to fit rulewise. And with SR5 I sometimes do not understand how they come by their rules or rule modifications. Sure, every weapon is an abstract rule item, but they still need to fit into the world. Why would someone design rules for modifying weapons and add rules for an underbarrel-chainsaw, but not for diffrent barrels, magazines etc. SR5 is big about copying SR4, whole paragraphs in the old core book were simply pasted into the new one. Why not take the rules from Cannon Companion (72-84) and add them to SR5.
My point is more than pure pedantery and "old SR was so much better". In fact I like SR5 a lot, in many ways I like it far more than SR3 (never player SR4). But rules need to make sense not only to a player, but also to the character -- that is within the world. In what universe does it make sense that the most powerful sniper rifles (Terracotta and Barret) hardly differ in price and while the one does +1 damage (7% increase), it has -2 AP, loosing 1/3 of its capability. And why are these high end rifles about 1/3 more expensive than the Ranger Arms which has the damage of the Barret, 25% more AP than the Terracotta and is more accurate than both (offline or when adding a a smartgun for a couple of bucks). And why is the Springfield Arms the most accurate weapon (yet) on the planet (Acc 9), even surpassing all modern high-tech designs, but apparently no-one can actually fit a smart gun onto it (not even a laser pointer, because they are modern electronics as well) or make it shoot beyond 750 meters.
Who comes up with these ideas and how does it seem to make sense from an in-world perspective. Sure, I can houserule all that, but actually I pay others to make their rules and ideas of a SR-universe consistent.
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I agree that many sniper rifles deliver a superior punch and would be preferable in a fight against hardened targets.
But what I quite often see under represented is the money factor. I've heard of groups where the cost of a weapon is just a target number the runner needs to beat with enough accumulated cash and everything is fine.
In my group our runners are encouraged to not spend every dime they earn on enhancement. They want to further their own goals, too. In some cases that involves expensive dresses, becoming a home owner, aggressive partying (blackjack&hookers) or just saving for rainy days. Sometimes we have months without worthy employment (we don't take any job) and during those months we don't want to become monks.
What I'm trying to say is that I've yet to play in a round where the income was high enough to justify the expense of a 30K+ weapon. But we're not playing mercenaries, so your experiences may differ.
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At Faket15:
For the Remington 950, rerun your numbers with the Remington using the called shot Vitals (adds 2 to dv) with both sharpshooter and not. Other suggestion is to run the numbers in a more ideal set up for the sniper; surprise, long range (51-350 m for SR vrs 26-150 m for AF, which imaging scope removes the -1).
The reasons being, with the called shot for increased damage +net hits and -6 ap (adps) the Remington 950 should do a little better. Also, if your runners are commonly using adps with burst fire, they have a lot of money (or see a lot of spirits). At ･12 per bullet, that can get expensive quick. Also, remember just because the assault rifle is R and you have the license doesn't mean the cops can't or won't give you crap, temporarily confiscate it, or other annoying gimmicks. While they could to an R sniper rifle as well most either look like or are sports rifles and are more likely to be ignored. Oh, and adps is also F rated, so if they see that (such as when checking the R weapons) jail time (or executed on the spot). Remember the game is more than numbers, but also the right weapon for the right job (and getting it to the job).
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The called shot for Vitals is actually more effective with an Assault Rifle than with a Sniper Rifle because of the higher chance to actually hit. It is also better than Bull's Eye for anything with less AP than a Desert Strike, including the AK-97. When you compare the AK and the Remington with a Called Shot to Vitals, the AK wins both in average damage and chance of OHKO, while with no Called Shot it wins only in average damage.
A Sniper Rifle is better at certain engagement ranges, but not enough to have a higher average damage. SRs have a longer maximum range, but how frequently do you expect to fight enemies at extreme range? Surprise situations clearly favor SRs, which shouldn't be really a surprise, but an AR offers you some nice tactical options (Supressive Fire, for example) that you can't really have with a Sniper Rifle.
The point about APDS's cost may be important. Depending on how much you make per run, you should be using cheaper rounds rather than APDS against normal targets. But if you are fighting against real opposition (Elite Corporate Security, HTR Teams, Spirits, teams of Shadowrunners with one or two Street Sams, ...) why would you be using anything else?
About police response to restricted guns, I always see people using the same argument and I really don't buy it. Back in SR3 the legality system was much more complex and yes, being caught with an automatic gun (including SMGs) was worse than being caught with a sporting rifle or shotgun. You also couldn't get a permit for any automatic gun, which means all of them were forbidden in SR5 terms. In SR4 and SR5, unfortunately, this argument doesn't have any real base and is more of a GM call than anything else. My personal view is that restricted is restricted, end of story. Some GMs think like me, some don't, but you can't really base a comparison between guns in things that are not in any way a part of the system, but only a restriction created by particular GMs.
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Ok so I have a related/unrelated question that is more or less on topic. I知 looking to equip a overwatch/sniper character to run as an NPC for stuff I知 writing.
Since there has been quite a bit of talk about how most SR combat is within the first or second range category I want to insure that a role which I find important from a tactical sense but not necessarily fun or the most entertaining role from a player standpoint can be filled by me should no one be interested. However I can let the players be in control of who gets hit by calling out requests for targets from the NPC.
What my real question is how to suitably go about this. Since I知 sure (since I知 writing it) there are potential encounters high up in skyscrapers and open areas, is there a way to facilitate getting a sniper and his rifle (Barret of course) into a good spot. My initial thoughts are either having him do rigging as well and strapping the Barret to a drone, or mounting it on a helicopter mount in the hopes of being able to hold the copter steady and provide fire over multiple floors if necessary and to be able to change altitude.
Obviously this sounds like pretty heavy fire support and I understand that and its possible negative impacts on both the runs and reps of the characters in the story if they are constantly within scope/cyber eyes of an ever present Barret equipped, vertically mobile watchdog.
Thoughts?
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Crockett. It's the ideal multi-role longarm. Burst fire capability allows for suppression as needed, the damage is good, the AP is good, and once you've got a smartgun system in there it's pretty much as good as anyone will likely ever need a rifle to be (for most threats). If you're looking to deal with hardened targets, the Barret is your better option though. You lose some of the versatility of the Crockett, but you make up for it in raw power.
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Ok so I have a related/unrelated question that is more or less on topic. I知 looking to equip a overwatch/sniper character to run as an NPC for stuff I知 writing.
Since there has been quite a bit of talk about how most SR combat is within the first or second range category I want to insure that a role which I find important from a tactical sense but not necessarily fun or the most entertaining role from a player standpoint can be filled by me should no one be interested. However I can let the players be in control of who gets hit by calling out requests for targets from the NPC.
What my real question is how to suitably go about this. Since I知 sure (since I知 writing it) there are potential encounters high up in skyscrapers and open areas, is there a way to facilitate getting a sniper and his rifle (Barret of course) into a good spot. My initial thoughts are either having him do rigging as well and strapping the Barret to a drone, or mounting it on a helicopter mount in the hopes of being able to hold the copter steady and provide fire over multiple floors if necessary and to be able to change altitude.
Obviously this sounds like pretty heavy fire support and I understand that and its possible negative impacts on both the runs and reps of the characters in the story if they are constantly within scope/cyber eyes of an ever present Barret equipped, vertically mobile watchdog.
Thoughts?
Boils down to how your table plays things out. I play in several different games that run from ultra black trench coat, to sparkling, neon pink mo-hawks and what you can get away with in one game, gets you killed 30 feet from your front door in the other.
In the Ultra-trench coat game, we have never used a sniper. Mostly due to the pain in the ass it would be to get them into cover and position:
Sniping implies both cover and distance, things that a city both does and does not provide well to a covert team trying to get both into, and out of a facility. This means that usually the Sniper has to be elevated, which means roof top, or window firing. Both of which can literally be runs in and of themselves in the AA+ areas that most Corporate facilities are located in. Why? you may ask? Well, where exactly is that sniper going to go? Into the building across the street? Well, that in all probability, is the office building of yet an other Corp, which means it's own security that has to be penetrated and over come.
As for using a drone to mount and use a Sniper rifle, there is a lot of debate on what size a mount is needed for the sniper rifle (just search the forums, there are PAGES on this debate). We roll with the more litteral ruling which means you need a heavy mount... which means a larger drone, hovering in place with a large rifle while literally thousands of other drones zip by..... Yep, it's going to get seen, tracked and blown out of the sky by KE or the a Corp in minutes. I mean come on, there is an unknown drone with a Forbidden weapon lurking in either public space or Corp space? What do you think is going to happen? Now the argument has been made about CM and stealth for drones, and while they do have their place, and are very useful, you are also talking bout thousands of drones, meaning thousands of sensors scans over minutes of time, it is going to get spotted... or, just as likely crashed into by an other drone that doesn't spot it (depending of course on where it is parked)
Heck, just transporting the weapons and gear can be a chore. Rich people like to feel safe, that means police out in force and it means check points, usually at chokepoints into and out of zones, which means trying to look like you fit in as you make your way across the city and back. Add to that the complex nature of the extra-territoriality laws and the patch work of enforcement this makes across the city scape, and you have a host of security, looking for various things as you weave your way through the city, risking MCT security, in favor of missing a KE check point.....
For al the hassle getting a sniper and their equipment into place, we stick with a rigger and with drones mounting an AR and LMG to get us out of the shit, which has brought up it's own host of challenges to over come.
In the Neon Mo-hawk game:
Our sniper regularly stands out on the ledge of the building shooting mooks with is Panther "sniper" cannon while screaming into a loud speaker "BOOOM!!!! HEAD SHOT!!!" that he packs with him. On the rare occasions that the building directly across from where the sniper needs to be actually is an office building (and not just a parking tower), the well placed and generous use of anti-personnel mines and grenades takes care of the occupants just fine.
Our drones usually don't bother with sniping, and mini-guns and grenade launchers seem to be much more fun for the Rigger to use... KE is only a problem in that there is an endless supply of them, as the gun bunny has had to replace the stock on his Ares Alpha from recording too many "Pig kills" on it.
****
talk to the table and the GM and find out what type of game they are playing and go from there. If the game has security and LE turned to 11, ditch the sniper rifle.
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Crockett. It's the ideal multi-role longarm. Burst fire capability allows for suppression as needed, the damage is good, the AP is good, and once you've got a smartgun system in there it's pretty much as good as anyone will likely ever need a rifle to be (for most threats). If you're looking to deal with hardened targets, the Barret is your better option though. You lose some of the versatility of the Crockett, but you make up for it in raw power.
QFT. Mount either on the Federated-Boeing Bumblebee drone from Nothing Personal (essentially an uparmored Roto-Drone with AV 14 at 24,000･ and 12F availability) and you've got a real winner. Just make sure you've got your Wrapper program running hot...
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Rich people like to feel safe, that means police out in force and it means check points, usually at chokepoints into and out of zones, which means trying to look like you fit in as you make your way across the city and back.
Ah, but sometimes they feel a little TOO safe. 'Cause, guess what, it's NOT the pizza drone.
In the Neon Mo-hawk game:
Our sniper regularly stands out on the ledge of the building shooting mooks with is Panther "sniper" cannon while screaming into a loud speaker "BOOOM!!!! HEAD SHOT!!!" that he packs with him. On the rare occasions that the building directly across from where the sniper needs to be actually is an office building (and not just a parking tower), the well placed and generous use of anti-personnel mines and grenades takes care of the occupants just fine.
You mean something like that?
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/6982725/1/Infiltrait0rN7
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I second the EBR. My SRM character has a Ranger SM-5 in a hardshell briefcase he uses for special occasions, but the vast majority of the time, the EBR works just fine.
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EBR as well, hard to get past the versitiality.
@Faket15, interesting wouldn't have suspected that either, oh well, shows that the recoil rules are to weak to me, personally, but oh well.
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Rich people like to feel safe, that means police out in force and it means check points, usually at chokepoints into and out of zones, which means trying to look like you fit in as you make your way across the city and back.
Ah, but sometimes they feel a little TOO safe. 'Cause, guess what, it's NOT the pizza drone.
In the Neon Mo-hawk game:
Our sniper regularly stands out on the ledge of the building shooting mooks with is Panther "sniper" cannon while screaming into a loud speaker "BOOOM!!!! HEAD SHOT!!!" that he packs with him. On the rare occasions that the building directly across from where the sniper needs to be actually is an office building (and not just a parking tower), the well placed and generous use of anti-personnel mines and grenades takes care of the occupants just fine.
You mean something like that?
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/6982725/1/Infiltrait0rN7
more like...
GM: "So the mission is an infliration of a secure lab facility to recover a scientist...."
Gunbunny: "Infiltration? Secure? guy in lab coat? gotcha. Mini-gun with SnS, Alpha with APDS, Gonna need.."
Sniper: 'Brining, my "rifle" and my Cannon, making sure loud speaker is charged"
Mage: "..... all I got is control actions, fireball, and ice sheet.... hmmm"
Rigger: "secure you said? AV rockets then to take down the door, Steel lynx with mini guns to mow down the guards..."
Me:"......I say way, way back. Like back in the safe house."
Gm: "... huh?'
gunbunny: <busy looking to make sure mods on weapons work as needed>
Sniper: "why?!!? this is going to be great!"
Mage: ".... he knows something...."
Rigger: "he's smiling! the GM is smiling!"
Me: "He said 'infiltration', 'secure' and scientist.... we're boned from the start, I'm not setting foot into his little deathtrap filled wonder house of death. Again."
Gunbunny: <right, so, you think I need the missile launcher too?"
Sniper: "oh! yea! Missiles!!"
Mage: ".... nah, it won't be like that again! trust me!"
Rigger: "right, only like 1 person died that time, and we still got paid. Sort of"
Me: <sigh> "fine I medkits. lots and lots of medkits."
(and for the record, Yes it was another deathtrap filled wonder house of death. Again)
<But it was fun>
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Loving the feedback about the EBR. Truth is, much depends on the game one is playing.
Some of our runs have been in wide open spaces, far outside city limits. Our sniper was dropping grunts and focusing fire on spirits. Can't imagine how those runs would have gone without him.
Most of the games our evil GM runs, are more black trench coat urban politics and blood mage hunting, with periodic all out fire fights against heavily armed merc groups. Our last run was an extraction that occurred ahead of schedule and none of us had so much as a working comlink or knife to fight with. Glad to heck I had invested so much to master 52 Blocks.
Right now, looking to maximize the Long Arms skill to the absolute best. AA-16 is my baby. Cheap, powerful, great crowd control and room clearing. The JP-K50 (similar to EBR) is looking like a solid weapon for the price. And when the time and money is right, Barret all the way for those hard targets that need to be taken down in the first round.
In terms of being a sniper in an urban environment, finding a position is an adventure in and of itself. Rooftops, abandoned warehouses, unoccupied apartments all present prime spots to shoot from. Learning to climb, break and enter, and or knock out occupants (gas/stun) are all ways to find that perch. Sniper overwatch can be incredibly demoralizing to armed forces. Just food for thought.
Got to love the deathtrap filled wonderhouses and the stubborn badasses who plow through them rather than get a desk job.
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I've had good luck using the Remington 950 with EX-Explosive rounds and called shots to the vitals (with the Sharpshooter feat and adept abilities to negate the penalty). 16P with -5 AP and 10 Accuracy is pretty nice for a weapon that costs about half of the money I get on an average run (including Smartlink, Silencer, and Personalized Grip). I also carry Gel rounds for the times when lethal force isn't a good option.
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at only 14F I think the Terrocota is awesome for the amount of firepower at that availability rating.
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Terracotta is awesome, but trying to cary much less conceal something (by fluff) that trolls think is big is kinda hard.
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speaking as a rigger with 2 EBR's with APDS in them on my rotodrones, i absolutely love the EBR, burst fire on a sniper rifle? yes please!
i pissed off my gm one night and one of my drones went confetti (with me hot sim'd no less) because in Humanitarian Aid, at the very end, the big bad saw me taking down the minor shedim so easily from extreme range no less, that he focused all his effort into that one drone and a force 10 ball lightning came my direction.
i barely escaped alive from the dumpshock and biofeedback. it was a glorious night.
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Sounds like a blast! :D
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Moral of the story: wait until the big bad to bring out your own big guns. ;)
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Say hello to my Really Big friend...
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Also a huge fan of Bull's Eye Double Tap... -15AP or more.