Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Sabato Kuroi on <01-12-15/0844:09>
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Since our rigger is specialized in ballistic weapons she needs a good heavy weapon for her Steel Lynx
There is no availiability issue, she is not a starting character (though her ability to actually get her hands on weapons with really high availiability is another matter)
The Lynx has a decent ammount of recoil compensation but she has somewhere around 15-16 dicepool while jumped in and I don't know if she can handle full auto.
What do you think?
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Suppressing fire doesn't have to worry about recoil at all. Also, many of the auto cannons are either SS or SA, so recoil is not as big of a deal. Plus, one simple action each pass resets the recoil anyways. With 500 rounds for a heavy weapon mount, the 20 rounds for suppressing fire is not really a big deal.
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Well, suppresive fire is a nice tactic for drones but Steel Lynx should be able to contribute more than that in a fight :P
I'm also leaning towards cannons instead of machine guns
Ares Thunderstruck gauss rifle is strong but seems expensive (and uses energy packs as well as regular ammo)
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For heavy bang-for-your-buck, the Ruhrmetall SF-20 is pretty decent at throwing hot lead downrange, what with it's 12P AP-4 stats. It's expensive, though, at 20k and 18F availability; the steel lynx is not exactly invincible, so I'd be cautious about outfitting such an expensive weapon on a relatively fragile drone.
A better choice to my mind would be the Cavalier Arms Crokett EBR; versatility of SA and BF, 20 round clip, same DV and AP-3, but for half the price. It's not going to do much good in terms of suppressive fire (unless your GM rules that it can be mounted with a belt-feed, which makes it a superior option in almost every way), but it's a decent choice regardless in my opinion.
If you still want to go heavy weapon but want to shell out a little less than 20k, The RPK HMG and Ultamax HMG-2 both come in at around 20k with similar stats. The most cost-effective machinegun out there is undoubtedly the Krime Wave; at only 2000¥ it's a bargain for it's FA, 10P AP-2 stats.
EDIT:
For cannons, I would go with the Krime Cannon 9 times out of 10. It's "only" 21k, sports SA mode (which allows for SA Burst), and only has one less DV than the twice as expensive Panther XXL. With all cannons you might run into problems with ammo, though, unless your GM allows it to be belt-fed (I wouldn't).
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Heavy weapon mount is normally belt fed (it is in its description in the core).
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Not to start anything, but that's a bit of an assumption, Rift_0f_Bladz. Neither weapon mounts really specify if they change the weapon feeding mechanism, merely that they can hold up to x rounds.
From SR5 page 461 (emphasis mine):
"Standard weapon mounts may hold any assault rifle or smaller-sized weapon and 250 rounds of ammo. Heavy weapon mounts count as two weapon mounts and can hold any weapon and up to 500 rounds of belted ammo or up to Body rockets/missiles."
The mounts ability to hold ammunition does not necessarily translate into being able to use belted ammo with a clip-fed weapon. This topic seems to have been the source of quite a lot of debate on this forum, so it's definitely a GM call at this point in time. I'd argue that one of the most significant benefits of machineguns over assault rifles are range and the ability to use belted ammunition; take away the belted ammunition part and some might argue that there is no reason to use machine guns over assault rifles at all. Not being able to use belted ammunition does bring up the issue of "how does a drone reload it's non-belted weapon", though.
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I'd go with lasers. Because lasers are cool.
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I'd go with lasers. Because lasers are cool.
I'd argue that lasers do not, in fact, have an inherent temperature since they are composed of photons, but that'd reveal just how geeky I am :)
They do, however, have potential... See what I did there?
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A laser will indeed crack most opposition wide open. The Archon will deliver precision firepower at extreme ranges (sniper table) and reload everytime the drone is plugged into your mothership's powergrid. As a semi-automatic weapon, you can fire short bursts and don't have to care for recoil.
Another option might be a flame thrower. But actually that's nasty stuff and might blow back in your face in multiple ways. Quite literally, because the drone can get shot and explode and secondly this might give your tea, notoriety. While small, fast drones with crazy weapons are good for shock and awe, a flamethrower is such a horrible weapon, someone might put a prize on your head.
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Lasers or the thunderstruck are a great call, they can plug into the drones power unit to avoid the whole reloading/power pack issue too.
I'd probably want to stick a second weapon on it for extra functionality, be that under barrel or on an extra weapon mount.
Something like a GL to lay down tear gas/neuro stun or some other non-lethal or support weaponry (sonic rifle) would be a great addition, because you don't always want to punch holes through stuff or slice it in half with a laser.
You don't lose anything by using exotic/rare weapons on drones as they all use gunnery skill or autosofts.
If she prefers the more conventional route then stick an LMG on it. Gas vent 3, smart gun (top), underbarrel gl and 500 rounds of whatever to feed from. The huge amount of belted ammo is the seller for that load out because ARs otherwise would be the better choice for the money, but you def don't want your expensive drone running out of ammo in the middle of a firefight with no way to reload it!
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Plus the high amount of available ammo makes long bursts an alternative in terms of destructive power when compared to enhanced ammo types like APDS and ex-explosive. That keeps costs down and enhances availability. Of course, once available, a laser will hardly run out of ammo and never increase your ammo bill again. At AP 10 and Acc 7 (plus smartgun) that will slice every enemy into pieces.
A non-lethal option remains an obligative second choice, though. There are days, when you must not kill. And lasers don't do well in that department.
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Called Shot: Eyes do just fine for non-lethal :D
I think Lasers should get a bonus when used against the eyes, personally. Make Blindness last longer, or something.
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Lol, a laser would ablate eye tissue just as well as any other tissue. Blindness from lasers would only be fixable with cyber eyes and extensive reconstructive surgery!
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I'd go with lasers. Because lasers are cool.
I'd argue that lasers do not, in fact, have an inherent temperature since they are composed of photons, but that'd reveal just how geeky I am :)
They do, however, have potential... See what I did there?
*GROAN!!!!!*
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Herr Brackhaus, I understand the whole how do drones reload, but as you quoted, I said heavy weapon mount. Which as you lovely bolded for all of us, says belted ammo in the core rules. And concerdering there are modern weapon mods to convert AR-15 and other assault style weapons into a belt fed weapon, I see no reason not to allow any simi-auto + mode gun to be allowed to use a belt fed system in a heavy mount weapon system. Does that mean the weapon could be removed and quickly used, most likely not.
As for best heavy armor buster in a drone, the laser weapons have some of the nicest AP currently in the game, at least in ideal conditions.
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Rift_0f_Bladz
Like I said, "belted ammo" does not equal "weapons without (belt) capability become (belt) loaded when mounted in a heavy weapon mount"; this is absolutely not stated anywhere in the rules. As such, this is definitely something to clarify with one's GM; that's all I'm saying.
Also, laser weapons and the Thunderstruck actually have somewhat pitiful AP values when one considers certain weapons using the Bulls-Eye Double-Tap/Burst action from Run & Gun.
Terracotta Arms AM-47: 15P -4AP. With Bulls-Eye Burst (Semi-Automatic Burst), base AP triples to -12 (plus additional -4 from APDS, for a total of -16AP, depending on one's reading of the rules)
Barret M122: 14P -6AP. With Bulls-Eye Burst, base AP triples to -18 (plus additional -4 from APDS, for a total of -22AP, depending on one's reading of the rules)
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Herr Brackhaus, I understand the whole how do drones reload, but as you quoted, I said heavy weapon mount. Which as you lovely bolded for all of us, says belted ammo in the core rules. And concerdering there are modern weapon mods to convert AR-15 and other assault style weapons into a belt fed weapon, I see no reason not to allow any simi-auto + mode gun to be allowed to use a belt fed system in a heavy mount weapon system. Does that mean the weapon could be removed and quickly used, most likely not.
As for best heavy armor buster in a drone, the laser weapons have some of the nicest AP currently in the game, at least in ideal conditions.
Rules are too vague to support that argument mate, nothing states that guns automagically become belt modified by being mounted
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For what it's worth, I've posted the question in the Missions FAQ (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=18293.msg343861#msg343861).
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Can no rigged drones use called shots?
Nothing against it either, but thanks for the FAQ anyways.
I have a hard time seeing most weapons in a heavy weapon (hell, a light weapon mount as well) mount not using some kind of belt fed like mechanism. Maybe for the rockets/missile weapons. I have always invisioned when mounting a weapon the handle, trigger, and stock remove, and the receiver, bolt (and firing pin), and barrel all that is really left since the regular firing mechanism is not really needed by the drone, kinda like a cannon in a tank. Where the gunner never really pulls a traditional trigger and hammer drops, more of pushes a button and gun fires.
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Can no rigged drones use called shots?
Nothing against it either, but thanks for the FAQ anyways.
I have a hard time seeing most weapons in a heavy weapon (hell, a light weapon mount as well) mount not using some kind of belt fed like mechanism. Maybe for the rockets/missile weapons. I have always invisioned when mounting a weapon the handle, trigger, and stock remove, and the receiver, bolt (and firing pin), and barrel all that is really left since the regular firing mechanism is not really needed by the drone, kinda like a cannon in a tank. Where the gunner never really pulls a traditional trigger and hammer drops, more of pushes a button and gun fires.
Which is all well and good, but the rules are too vague to make that decision based on RAW. How your table plays it is up to you guys to figure out, but it's def not in RAW
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That sadly seems to be the case a lot lately with riggers/drones. But that could just be me.
They are several good machine guns, but the crime wave is really strong for its price in a combat drone.
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Yeah, we're def in need of the rigger splat book!
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A good friend of mine is running a rigger in our game. Our GM has had to hand wave/house rule so much rigger stuff. And all matrix stuff is done by an NPC decker.
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The only problem with lasers is that they are in the energy specialization, and the OP stated that the rigger in question is specialized in ballistics. I personally would go with the gauss rifle, since I have had no real issues with it OSOKing guard towers with armored glass. Of course, YMMV at your table.
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I have always [e]nvisioned when mounting a weapon the handle, trigger, and stock remove, and the receiver, bolt (and firing pin), and barrel all that is really left since the regular firing mechanism is not really needed by the drone, kinda like a cannon in a tank. Where the gunner never really pulls a traditional trigger and hammer drops, more of pushes a button and gun fires.
Actually, that is not how mounting a production-line weapon into a weapon mount necessarily works today. The machine gun isntalled into the weapon mount on our IFVs had the optics partially removed and the stock modfied. But otherwise they remained unchanged. There was simply a lever pulling the trigger when I hit "fire" in the turret.
Usually it's much easier to install a stock weapon into a mount by using what's there. In SR that might mean putting a lever to the trigger (as today) or hooking a universal adapter cable to a smartgun controlled weapon. In the latter case, don't bother changing any of the parts. That baby can be fired from anywhere aroung the world.
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When I said cannon, I meant the main cannon, not the .50 cal on the top. I am aware that most mounted weapons are the physically cared weapon, just hooked onto the mount. And if you want the thumb triggers the weapon has a lot more rearranged than simple stock modification. For a saw, yeah a simple mod works, but for permanent mounted weapons, usually more modifications are needed. But they are usually a quick fix and a few pins removed.
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If you want maximum effectiveness you will probably go with either a top of the line Sniper Rifle (AM-47 or Barret), a Heavy Machine Gun or the Auto-Assault 16. For a vehicle mounted gun, recoil isn't really a problem and you should go with a HMG, which gives you at the same time the higher expected damage, higher ammo capacity and larger number of tactical options. For a drone, even a Steel Lynx, getting enough RC to fully compensate a Full Burst is hard. This means a good SR will give a higher average damage and higher chance of One-Hit KO, but both the HMG and the AA-16 continue to be really nice because of Suppressive Fire.
The Thunderstruck is a bad option. The AM-47 has the same stats with APDS and can use Bull's Eye burst or other types of ammo, like Ex-ex.
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If you want maximum effectiveness you will probably go with either a top of the line Sniper Rifle (AM-47 or Barret), a Heavy Machine Gun or the Auto-Assault 16. For a vehicle mounted gun, recoil isn't really a problem and you should go with a HMG, which gives you at the same time the higher expected damage, higher ammo capacity and larger number of tactical options. For a drone, even a Steel Lynx, getting enough RC to fully compensate a Full Burst is hard. This means a good SR will give a higher average damage and higher chance of One-Hit KO, but both the HMG and the AA-16 continue to be really nice because of Suppressive Fire.
The Thunderstruck is a bad option. The AM-47 has the same stats with APDS and can use Bull's Eye burst or other types of ammo, like Ex-ex.
I feel the same about drones and recoil so let's forget about machine guns.Supressive fire is the main tactic of our rigger's rotordrones so let's focus on damage for the lynx.
I feel that the AM-47 is a great weapon but it costs 9.000 nuyen more than the Thunderstruck.APDS rounds are expensive as well.On the other hand the AM-47 has so many extras.You can keep the drone away from hostiles, jump in, use the vision magnification system and kick some serious butt.And if things go south, drones have great mobility.
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at least with LMG/MMG/HMG you don't need to worry about reloading as much, given that you can belt 500 rounds up. HMG ranges are more than generous enough for sniping as well.
TBH if you're going sniper, ditch the lynx and get the FB-Bumblee. heavy weapon mount, good armour and it flies, so its a damn site more useable (you don't have to find an elevator to avoid going upstairs lol)
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Assault Cannon ammo is even more expensive than APDS. The extras on the AM-47 don't really make a difference because you can install extras in anything you want. What makes both the AM-47 and the Barret better than the Thunderstruck is the acess to different types of ammunition. Most of the time you want to be using EX-explosive for +2 DV and -1 AP. Against targets with heavy armor, you want to use APDS to have acess to Bull's-Eye Burst. Either way the Thunderstruck is a suboptimal choice. If you really care about the nuyen difference and isn't only trying to justify the Thunderstruck (because, let's face it, it's a f***ing Gauss Rifle) you should go with the Auto-Assault 16 for almost the same level of effectiveness with a much lower cost and higher versatility.
And I second Csjarrat when he talks about the FB-Bumblebee. That thing makes the Steel Lynx obsolete.
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The Thunderstruck's cost will reach 30.000 nuyen if you put the extras of AM-47 on it.Well, I guess weapons mounted on drones don't really need a commlink anyway :P
Source for the FB-Bumblebee drone?Must check it out.Since our rigger mostly uses flying drones(flyng eyes+rotordrones) she would welcome such an adition.Apart from the heavy weapon mount is it any better than rotordrones?
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It's in "nothing special", stat page is free.
Yeah, miles heavier armour than rotodrone and comes stock with a stoner m202 machine gun. About 24k iirc
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do you have a link to the "nothing special" page?
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@Csjarrat
Thanks for the info!Is there any art for Bumblebee?
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It seems to be "Nothing Personal". There is a link in this thread : http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=17708.15
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Jeez, memory failing me and I'm not quite 30 lol. That is indeed the one
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... seriously, someone's getting pedantic about whether or not a drone-mounted weapon has to reload? Think about this for a minute - it carries 250 rounds of ammo, but it has to take a minute to switch out the magazine???
If you insist, then the 250 rounds becomes its clip. It's a very extended clip, but it's essentially fed the same route; it does not 'gain belt-fed' as a feeder mechanism, because belt-feed is simply a way to make a very rapidly-firing weapon have both feeder and ejector ports externally-fed. LMGs, after all, can be (and are!) fed from both simple and box magazines as well as belt-feed.
As the cost of a belt of ammunition is merely the standard cost of that ammunition increased to that number of rounds, the only real difference is whether or not the availability increases due to its being in an actual belt.
The question in the Missions FAQ should therefore be converted, for honesty's sake, to 'how is a drone's internal ammo bin handled in the case of non-belt-fed weapons?' And the answer is going to essentially be 'the ammo bin becomes equivalent to a very extended form of the weapon's standard feed type' - though I can't imagine anyone being so much of an idiot as to convert a revolver.
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... seriously, someone's getting pedantic about whether or not a drone-mounted weapon has to reload? Think about this for a minute - it carries 250 rounds of ammo, but it has to take a minute to switch out the magazine???
If you insist, then the 250 rounds becomes its clip. It's a very extended clip, but it's essentially fed the same route; it does not 'gain belt-fed' as a feeder mechanism, because belt-feed is simply a way to make a very rapidly-firing weapon have both feeder and ejector ports externally-fed. LMGs, after all, can be (and are!) fed from both simple and box magazines as well as belt-feed.
As the cost of a belt of ammunition is merely the standard cost of that ammunition increased to that number of rounds, the only real difference is whether or not the availability increases due to its being in an actual belt.
The question in the Missions FAQ should therefore be converted, for honesty's sake, to 'how is a drone's internal ammo bin handled in the case of non-belt-fed weapons?' And the answer is going to essentially be 'the ammo bin becomes equivalent to a very extended form of the weapon's standard feed type' - though I can't imagine anyone being so much of an idiot as to convert a revolver.
Thank you. I've tried saying that in arguments like this before, but it never seems to get through.
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... seriously, someone's getting pedantic about whether or not a drone-mounted weapon has to reload? Think about this for a minute - it carries 250 rounds of ammo, but it has to take a minute to switch out the magazine???
If you insist, then the 250 rounds becomes its clip. It's a very extended clip, but it's essentially fed the same route; it does not 'gain belt-fed' as a feeder mechanism, because belt-feed is simply a way to make a very rapidly-firing weapon have both feeder and ejector ports externally-fed. LMGs, after all, can be (and are!) fed from both simple and box magazines as well as belt-feed.
As the cost of a belt of ammunition is merely the standard cost of that ammunition increased to that number of rounds, the only real difference is whether or not the availability increases due to its being in an actual belt.
The question in the Missions FAQ should therefore be converted, for honesty's sake, to 'how is a drone's internal ammo bin handled in the case of non-belt-fed weapons?' And the answer is going to essentially be 'the ammo bin becomes equivalent to a very extended form of the weapon's standard feed type' - though I can't imagine anyone being so much of an idiot as to convert a revolver.
For the most part I agree completely. The question still warrants an answer, however, and I'd encourage you to post your phrasing of the question if only to demonstrate that it is indeed a question that could use clarification.
And yes, the revolver might be a silly item to use in a drone, but it's a valid option for a weapon mount. It doesn't make much sense, but that's why the question could use answering.
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While it's hardly a proper answer, I'd suggest using Pilot for any attribute required during reloading. We do have the existing example of Gunnery (aka [Weapon]: Targeting) & Agility / Logic / Pilot to draw conclusions from.
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Since our rigger is specialized in ballistic weapons she needs a good heavy weapon for her Steel Lynx
There is no availiability issue, she is not a starting character (though her ability to actually get her hands on weapons with really high availiability is another matter)
The Lynx has a decent ammount of recoil compensation but she has somewhere around 15-16 dicepool while jumped in and I don't know if she can handle full auto.
ArmTech MGL-12.......... Nothing says love like a 3 round burst of HE Grenade to hit something for 32P
Nuff said. :-X
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... seriously, someone's getting pedantic about whether or not a drone-mounted weapon has to reload? Think about this for a minute - it carries 250 rounds of ammo, but it has to take a minute to switch out the magazine???
(Clipped)
The question in the Missions FAQ should therefore be converted, for honesty's sake, to 'how is a drone's internal ammo bin handled in the case of non-belt-fed weapons?' And the answer is going to essentially be 'the ammo bin becomes equivalent to a very extended form of the weapon's standard feed type' - though I can't imagine anyone being so much of an idiot as to convert a revolver.
For the most part I agree completely. The question still warrants an answer, however, and I'd encourage you to post your phrasing of the question if only to demonstrate that it is indeed a question that could use clarification.
And yes, the revolver might be a silly item to use in a drone, but it's a valid option for a weapon mount. It doesn't make much sense, but that's why the question could use answering.
[86.43 Mp deleted by SysOp due to ranting]
I would not - ever - ask that question, because in my mind it's something that doesn't need answering; it is answered perfectly well by implication and the simple, basic application of common sense in reading the rules - the question does not warrant an answer, because it is, to me, a stupid bloody question. "The drone can load 250 rounds for each weapon X-sized or smaller." Nothing about loading modes for anything, anything at all - which reads to me that it doesn't HAVE any sort of requirement to load - all 250 rounds are available to the weapon, and can be fired in whatever firing mode the weapon can use, without needing recourse to reloading at all. You reload the weapon by swapping out its fragging ammo bid.
In my mind - and hopefully you won't take this the way purvue-who-became-Malevolence did (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=17843.msg315757#msg315757) - in my mind, requiring an answer to a question like this is sheer pedantic idiocy; there is such a thing as reading the book too closely. It's like absolutely requiring someone to take 'Armand' as a contact for 'lightly-used armor'; used armor is going to be available through any contact the GM - or hell, even the players!! - say sell used-but-still-functional armor, and so the GM can use the 'lightly-used' rules that Armand is an example for for the armor provided by the home game's contact. There doesn't need to be line-by-line specification of X and Y, or clarification for every possible variable for a rule or a combination of rules.
That, my dear man, is what the Master of the Games is for.
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... seriously, someone's getting pedantic about whether or not a drone-mounted weapon has to reload? Think about this for a minute - it carries 250 rounds of ammo, but it has to take a minute to switch out the magazine???
(Clipped)
The question in the Missions FAQ should therefore be converted, for honesty's sake, to 'how is a drone's internal ammo bin handled in the case of non-belt-fed weapons?' And the answer is going to essentially be 'the ammo bin becomes equivalent to a very extended form of the weapon's standard feed type' - though I can't imagine anyone being so much of an idiot as to convert a revolver.
For the most part I agree completely. The question still warrants an answer, however, and I'd encourage you to post your phrasing of the question if only to demonstrate that it is indeed a question that could use clarification.
And yes, the revolver might be a silly item to use in a drone, but it's a valid option for a weapon mount. It doesn't make much sense, but that's why the question could use answering.
[86.43 Mp deleted by SysOp due to ranting]
I would not - ever - ask that question, because in my mind it's something that doesn't need answering; it is answered perfectly well by implication and the simple, basic application of common sense in reading the rules - the question does not warrant an answer, because it is, to me, a stupid bloody question. "The drone can load 250 rounds for each weapon X-sized or smaller." Nothing about loading modes for anything, anything at all - which reads to me that it doesn't HAVE any sort of requirement to load - all 250 rounds are available to the weapon, and can be fired in whatever firing mode the weapon can use, without needing recourse to reloading at all. You reload the weapon by swapping out its fragging ammo bid.
In my mind - and hopefully you won't take this the way purvue-who-became-Malevolence did (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=17843.msg315757#msg315757) - in my mind, requiring an answer to a question like this is sheer pedantic idiocy; there is such a thing as reading the book too closely. It's like absolutely requiring someone to take 'Armand' as a contact for 'lightly-used armor'; used armor is going to be available through any contact the GM - or hell, even the players!! - say sell used-but-still-functional armor, and so the GM can use the 'lightly-used' rules that Armand is an example for for the armor provided by the home game's contact. There doesn't need to be line-by-line specification of X and Y, or clarification for every possible variable for a rule or a combination of rules.
That, my dear man, is what the Master of the Games is for.
And I don't think clearly defined rules, nor a little civility, is too much to ask for.
I get that you think it's a "stupid bloody question"; that doesn't change the fact that its a topic that's been raised multiple times.
And that, my dear man, is all I have to say on the matter. Good day.
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Then go by the following:
Drones don't reload. If their 250 ammo is gone, they have to be reloaded, like replacing the belt/clip/whatever. That's why they go with so much ammo capacity, to minimize the chance of them running out of ammo infight and becoming a sitting duck.
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Personally, i see it as the weapon has access to 250 rounds of ammunition without reloading. However, there is clearly enough ambiguity on this matter that it spawns a LOT of threads. And none of the threads are ever fully resolved to the general satisfaction of those involved. Inevitably the threads devolve into name calling and get locked down. I think Wyrm is right in his interpretation, but I also think Brackhaus is right to ask the question in the Missions FAQ.
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I guess this is one of the advantages to having played through five editions of very-closely-similar rules - you give a pass to the writers not wanting to point out what is (to them and to yourself) an obvious conclusion. Has this really spawned multiple threads? I mean, it's like wondering whether or not every metatype has four fingers and a thumb on each hand, or if (for example) trolls have three-and-one. If it contains 250 rounds, why would the weapon not have consecutive access to all 250 rounds? I could understand if the ammo bin was described as being in a seperate area, and that after exhausting the ready magazine the thing needed to reload ... but it wasn't. Soooo ...
*shrugs*
And I don't think clearly defined rules, nor a little civility, is too much to ask for.
I get that you think it's a "stupid bloody question"; that doesn't change the fact that its a topic that's been raised multiple times.
And that, my dear man, is all I have to say on the matter. Good day.
That was me being civil. But as I said, one can read the rules too closely - or require too much clarity. Some wiggle room is necessary for every rule and every game, and some things should be left to the GM - or are, apparently, thought to be clear enough as stated that the simple next-step conclusion needn't be spelled out. I would guess that you're a new player to the game, though, and that you're someone who wants as many potential questions or minor variables ironed out, nailed down, defined specifically within the rules. In some cases, I'll concede, it makes for a better game, but in a lot of them, it turns a 300 page book into a 500 page tome.
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I also think that drones don't need to reload.
But as for firing different kinds of ammo(if you ve loaded your drone with 200 regular rounds and 50 stick n shock rounds for example), I'd say at least a free action is required.
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I also think that drones don't need to reload.
But as for firing different kinds of ammo(if you ve loaded your drone with 200 regular rounds and 50 stick n shock rounds for example), I'd say at least a free action is required.
You'd either need to load the ammo in order you want it fired (a GM call), or have an ammo-feed that lets you switch (which was in Arsenal, last I checked).
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ArmTech MGL-12.......... Nothing says love like a 3 round burst of HE Grenade to hit something for 32P
Nuff said. :-X
That is SO true. Think that's going in my signature. :)
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Just for clarity here are the actual rules:
Weapon mounts: Vehicles may be equipped with a
number of weapon mounts equal to their unaugmented
Body ÷ 3 (round down). Standard weapon mounts may
hold any assault rifle or smaller-sized weapon and 250
rounds of ammo. Heavy weapon mounts count as two
weapon mounts and can hold any weapon and up to 500 rounds of belted ammo or up to Body rockets/missiles.
All weapon mounts are operated remotely and can
target a ninety-degree arc of fire (horizontal and vertical).
Manual operation can be added, but only for vehicles,
not drones, and at extra cost.
Note: this does not say anything regarding modification of weapons, altering of fire modes, changing of clip/cylinder/break action/muzzle loader/internal magazine.
It just doesn't.
The rules are vague and leave things open to interpretation either way and are further muddied by the requirement for belted ammo on the heavy mount.
Does that requirement therefore preclude non-belt fed weapons? so a small mount can make a pistol into a 250 round capacity, but a large mount can't do the same for a sniper rifle?
If so, why? If not, why not?
The rules are vague and for those that use previous precedents from earlier rules, i'm reasonably sure that small mounts in sr4a require belt-capable weapons to utilise the ammo bins, hence everything had 100 round drum mods and dual magazine feed mods to give 200 round capacity for non-belt weapons.
Note i am not stating an opinion here, just presenting facts.
CBA with yet another argument on this topic
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Does that requirement therefore preclude non-belt fed weapons?
It precludes belt-feeding non belt-fed weapons, if you read into it that way.
so a small mount can make a pistol into a 250 round capacity, but a large mount can't do the same for a sniper rifle?
Take a look at the weapon mount in the core rulebook, page 270. That's a no-frills version of how I imagine standard mounts work.
I'm not going so far as to say it can't reload, but is there any reason it should have a 250 round capacity?
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i'm not arguing a case here, wyrm was the one arguing that weapons should have access to all 250 rounds.
If it contains 250 rounds, why would the weapon not have consecutive access to all 250 rounds?
My point was that SR4a precedent is against this interpretation and the rules are too vague to make a call either way.
I support getting a missions FAQ on this
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And yet precedent BEFORE SR4a is FOR that interpretation. Or I dunno - maybe we just figured, "hey, if you can modify the weapon and mount it and load in the ammo, the thing is gonna be able to load all the ammo into the gun." Crazy, I guess.
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And yet precedent BEFORE SR4a is FOR that interpretation. Or I dunno - maybe we just figured, "hey, if you can modify the weapon and mount it and load in the ammo, the thing is gonna be able to load all the ammo into the gun." Crazy, I guess.
You're more than welcome to play it that way, as are other people to play it their way.
Like i said earlier, rules are vague and can be interpreted either way.
Whatever you (op/random reader) decide, check it through with your GM and make a rule for your table to avoid disappointment further down the line
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while I agree with you wyrm, some of the weapons that I have seen loaded into mounts make me shake my head.
A revolver (cause it does more damage!)
A double barrelled shotgun (break action)
Which leaves GMs in an interesting spot. Do you allow all 250 rounds with out a reload action on all mounts? Do you limit it to the gun feed system? (No to break actions and cyclinders, yes to clips, magazines, belts)
There are serious ramifications to both choices.
If you allow access to all the ammo for all weapon types, you in effect turn what could have been a cheap and limited weapon (the break action shotgun for example) to become a relatively powerful one. However, the player IS paying for the drone that the weapon is being mounted on, and has the added possibility of getting that drone destroyed.
FWIW, I just leave the argument to others and let the weapon access the ammo to use as the weapon allows. There are more important things to worry about then just how a fictional part, in a fictional game actually works.
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Drum-Fed AK-97 with an underbelly Bola Launcher. ;D
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I prefer my drum-fed Enfield AS-7 with an underbelly Bolo launcher. Trust me, nothing makes the opposition crap their pants faster than a 500 kiloton sentient tank.
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I would agree with the heavier damaging shotguns (AS-7 or AA-16), or the harder night mmg or hmgs (krime wave included even though technically a lmg). The sustained fire of the machine guns or the (bleep) you of full auto wide choke shogun.
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Warm, how many Bolos can you load before taking encumbering weight penalties?
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Shotguns are awesome but I would not put one on a drone. A Steel Lynx is tough but not that tough and I'd rather keep my drones back as much as possible to make them less of a target to cut down on repair expenses. That said I'd go with the heaviest MG I could find. Given the body rating of a Lynx you can add Gas-Vent 3 and a under barrel weight and you have enough RC to fire off a 10 round burst or several consecutive 3 round bursts without penalty. And of course you always have suppressive fire. :)
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Why not a Vindicator Minigun? Ok recoil compensation, nice ap and its a minigun. Hell in this edition it even accepts barrel mounts and has a Smartlink to boot. And it's a minigun.
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Why not a Vindicator Minigun? Ok recoil compensation, nice ap and its a minigun. Hell in this edition it even accepts barrel mounts and has a Smartlink to boot. And it's a minigun.
The Availability. Otherwise, totally. Also, pretty sure the recoil compensation is -2, not a good thing.
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Compared to other guns in RG which get -6RC for a tripod, I presume this -2RC of the minigun is actually the regular advantageous version.
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Compared to other guns in RG which get -6RC for a tripod, I presume this -2RC of the minigun is actually the regular advantageous version.
I see what the problem is; in the Core rulebook, Recoil Compensation is positive. In Run & Gun (for machine guns only, it seems), it's negative. Another legacy of the poor editing, I suppose.
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R and G errata fixed that actually on all goofy RC values.
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Page 1 of the Run & Gun Errata:
GENERAL, RECOIL COMPENSATION CORRECTIONS
Minus symbols should be removed from Recoil Compensation listings for all weapons that have them, including the following: Auto-Assault 16, Franchi Spas-24, GE Vindicator Mini-Gun, SA Nemesis, FN Mag-5, Ultimax MMG, Ruhrmetall SF-20, Ultimax HMG-2
I do wish the Ares HVAR and GE Vindicator Mini-gun had specific high velocity rules; as is, there are better options mechanically that make these weapons flavourful more than anything.
The 200-round belt for the Vindicator is nice for a metahuman carrying it, but matters little when the weapon is mounted. Furthermore, that the Vindicator requires spinning up is a slight drawback as I see it. It is less costly than the superior Ruhrmetall SF-20, however.