Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Molash on <01-12-15/1318:15>
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I understand that augmentations take away from your essence. What happens when all of the PCs essence is gone? Do they become a cyberzombie? And if so what happens to the PC at that time? Do they become NPCs or can the PCs still use them?
Also what happens someone replaces a alpha cyberware with beta or delta? Do the loose even more essence on top of what they paid for with the alpha?
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When Essence drops to Zero or below, the character is Dead. Cyber-Zombies come in through a powerful and very unnatural piece of ritual magic designed to "trick" the spirit into remaining with the now-corpse and drugs are introduced to keep the body physically functioning.
If you replace an implant with the same implant of a higher grade (like your example of Alpha replaced with Delta), you have an "Essence Hole" equal to the difference in Essence costs that can be used for other implants.
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Which, to continue the thought from All4BG, means that the higher the grade of ware, the more can be packed in the metahuman body before terminal failure. Alpha grade gets you 7.45, beta gets you 8.5, and delta gets you 11.95 worth of essence loss before death. Truly scary what can be done with delta ware, like FBR with maximum reaction/initiative enhancement.
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So as long as they have .01 essence left they are functionlly still alive?
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Yup! Though at that point they're more machine than man. Likely to suffer from some kinda of dissassociation, or cyberpsychosis.
There's been a couple good fics on how someone responds to that much cyberware though I think Hatchetman's is one of the best.
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Don't forget the social limit hit for basically having 0 essence for your social calculation.....
which means, you unnerve just about everyone around you, just by being you.. only more so.
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Well, since essence only factors in by 1/4 into the limit and is rounded up, i wouldn't think it's that severe.
Even with CHA 3, WIL 3, Ess 0,1 you'd have a Social Limit of 4 and there are many ways to increase it further by wearing the right attire.
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That's the technial impact, yes. The social impact, which the GM should play up, is that people get unnerved by you.
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And how would you do that?
Take an Elf with CHA 6, WIL 4, Ess 0.x, wearing a Vashon Island Ace of Coins in the right place. He'd have a Social Limit of 9.
Having full 6.0 Essence would increase this limit by 2, but since a limit only matters for really high dicepools or the lucky, he should be more or less unaffected by his low essence.
Of course, in case he fails an opposed test because he has 9 hits and the opponent 10, you might argument with his low essence having impacted the negotiation/bluff/whatever. But imho this should be the only case: when essence causes you to lose hits.
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And how would you do that?
Take an Elf with CHA 6, WIL 4, Ess 0.x, wearing a Vashon Island Ace of Coins in the right place. He'd have a Social Limit of 9.
and part of his Cyberware is tailored Pheromones ;)
Essenceloss and its impact on Social Pools & Limits ( ;) ) is exaggerated ImO
with an unlimited Dance
Medicineman
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Well, technically it doesn't affect dicepools but limits :)
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I think the Tailored Pheromones are a good way for an mid-level augmented character to get around some of the drawbacks. It actually makes sense - though the grade can be debated as always, of course - that some enhancements make you feel better as a human, not as a professional. And they might even make others feel better around you as you act less self-distance. Wich is the apparent problem characters develop when getting too augmented. Essentially you develop dissociative (behavioral) disorders, because you feel better than other humans and less attached. It's why certain small additions can dettach you more than larger ones. I think eyes are underrated, though. Sight is the primal (active) human sense, which we use to perceive the world and connect alot too culturally. In my opinion eye-ware should cost more essence than it does. Not the add-ons, simply the implants themselves. Imagein looking into the eyes of a close friend and being able to tell how he feels. Then look at him with his new eyes intalled and being able to tell what model they are, because of the blinking routine Shiawase's new Soul-mirror 3000XS come with. Eerie...
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And how would you do that?
Take an Elf with CHA 6, WIL 4, Ess 0.x, wearing a Vashon Island Ace of Coins in the right place. He'd have a Social Limit of 9.
Having full 6.0 Essence would increase this limit by 2, but since a limit only matters for really high dicepools or the lucky, he should be more or less unaffected by his low essence.
Of course, in case he fails an opposed test because he has 9 hits and the opponent 10, you might argument with his low essence having impacted the negotiation/bluff/whatever. But imho this should be the only case: when essence causes you to lose hits.
Again, you're talking technicals; one wonders whether your games are just figuring out modifiers and rolling dice, or roleplay.
"Y'know, I like Sam. He's charming, he's witty, he's reasonable, and I like the way he smells. But there's something off about the guy - he's perfectly witty, his teeth are too straight, and he's reasonable just to the point where I want to say 'hell no!!' but can't, y'know? Unnerving."
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Again, you're talking technicals; one wonders whether your games are just figuring out modifiers and rolling dice, or roleplay.
"Y'know, I like Sam. He's charming, he's witty, he's reasonable, and I like the way he smells. But there's something off about the guy - he's perfectly witty, his teeth are too straight, and he's reasonable just to the point where I want to say 'hell no!!' but can't, y'know? Unnerving."
This!
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And how would you do that?
Take an Elf with CHA 6, WIL 4, Ess 0.x, wearing a Vashon Island Ace of Coins in the right place. He'd have a Social Limit of 9.
Having full 6.0 Essence would increase this limit by 2, but since a limit only matters for really high dicepools or the lucky, he should be more or less unaffected by his low essence.
Of course, in case he fails an opposed test because he has 9 hits and the opponent 10, you might argument with his low essence having impacted the negotiation/bluff/whatever. But imho this should be the only case: when essence causes you to lose hits.
Again, you're talking technicals; one wonders whether your games are just figuring out modifiers and rolling dice, or roleplay.
"Y'know, I like Sam. He's charming, he's witty, he's reasonable, and I like the way he smells. But there's something off about the guy - he's perfectly witty, his teeth are too straight, and he's reasonable just to the point where I want to say 'hell no!!' but can't, y'know? Unnerving."
I still think of low Essence as having a negative dice pool modifier to social interactions--old habits die hard. My Missions character is a low-ish Essence (3) face/jack of all trades, which I find a fun thing to roleplay. He's a face, but he's decidedly not nice.
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The Wyrm nails it. Yet again!
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Again, you're talking technicals; one wonders whether your games are just figuring out modifiers and rolling dice, or roleplay.
I'd like to address this attitude once and for all because I think it's necessary.
Run & Gun page 107:
"Not all gamers like the same kind of game."
Expressing your opinion is perfectly fine, you are of course entitled to it. I do not think you have the right to denigrate those who do not share your point of view, however, and I am honestly surprised that you off all people are not more tolerant of other peoples opinion. Considering you are someone who obviously has a long history of gaming, vast knowledge of the Shadowrun setting, and is a respected voice on these forums, I expected more from you than the kind of posts I've seen over the past few weeks.
So what if someone wants clear rules and enjoys the technical and mechanical aspects of a game, perhaps to the point where the game becomes more about rolling dice than roleplaying a character. As long as the game is fun for the participants, who are we, or indeed anyone, to judge?
To quote the Shadowrun 5th Edition rulebook:
"The rules are here so that you and the gamemaster can determine the outcome of your actions. Did the shot from your Ares Predator V hit the ork ganger right between the tusks? Are you able to sneak past the sleepy dwarf guard without waking him up? Did you counter the stunball the troll mage threw at you and dissolve it into millions of pieces of glittery mana?"
These same principles can be applied to every aspect of the game; finding a balance between game mechanics, roleplaying, and having fun is up to each individual person and table, and is not something that can be easily quantified in my opinion.
That's all I wanted to say.
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First, finish the quote:
Not all gamers like the same kind of game. Imaginations run at different levels, and while some people are firmly grounded in the real world and like their games to mirror reality as closely as they can, others want quick and simple rules to provide groundwork for their storytelling descriptions. Still others want to find a way to balance it all as best one can and still have a game that is fun to play for everyone.
Second, here's the thing, Herr Brackhaus - I'm not denigrating it. You're isolating my statement of preferences and attributing to both them and I an assortment of denigration, contempt, and superciliousness that just ain't there. Let me sum up the conversation above, since - going by your post and your isolated quote - it doesn't appear that you read all of it.
Lucean: Numbers!! Don't be stupid.
Wyrm: Yeah, that's what the numbers say, but the GM should emphasize the social impact.
Lucean: How would you do that? Because Numbers!!
Wyrm: That's the technicals; do you play only technicals, dude? "RPed Social Impact!!"
HerrB: Wyrm, you're a dick.
So really, what we have here is a conversation from people who are strongly on two different sides of the fence (though I'll argue that I DO care about the technicals, but not so much that I won't make a 'bad technicals decision' for a good RP reason) who are providing examples of the way they play and run. One says 'it's all about the numbers', and one says 'there's more to life than numbers! Lookit - pretty butterflies!!' And in the middle there are oodles of people who are going 'huh, that's an interesting way to put it' and are taking BOTH his highly-technical view AND my strongly-RPed view back to their games to create their own blending.
Meanwhile, you are providing bitching and text evidence. Text evidence is good (to an extent), but can also limit (on occasion). Bitching - at me or at Lucean - when we are giving examples and viewpoints and opinions, is providing more noise and less signal. I, for one, really wish you would stop, because unless I'm attacking Lucean - which I'm not, and I'm not really even attacking his game - it ain't your place.
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Quite frankly, I was glad that 4th did away almost entirely with the "Essence Loss makes everyone think you're a freak" thing and think that that it was a huge mistake to bring it back. There really was no reason to other than that some players from 1st edition wanted it back.
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Well, it's part of the genre - people who can do things that ordinary people can't do look at the world in a different way. Big trolls can bench-press your car, they wouldn't think anything about lifting up a hundred-pound sack of flour, for example; all the metaraces can see in the dark one way or the other, so why bother with anything but night-lights in your house, you know?
One of the better ways I found of looking at this was a scale of what would be Negative Qualities - psychological and physical issues that develop from increasing amounts of implants as well as magic. Developed originally by Mary Kuhner, the writer of the Jayhawk fic (first bit here (http://www.skepticfiles.org/en002/jh001012.htm)), it tracked both cybernetic implants (CyberEssence) and magical power (Magic Essence); the latter went with a simple1:1 ratio of your Magic to your MagicEssence. How many (or how strong) your psych issues were was dependent on how much you had, which I formalized to one point of psychological problems per 0.5 of either CE or ME. You also had physical problems based on your Magic Essence, at 1 point's worth per full point of ME.
CE psych issues tended towards antisocial and dissociative behavior, seeing the world more as a machine, or just as the rest of reality being lesser. ME psych issues tended towards weirdly-social, even overly-social behavior, as well as obsessive/compulsive and 'lucky' activities. Physical issues tended towards allergies and dietary restrictions.
It led to some very interesting RP when I used it, and included some more interesting RP when I arranged for ways to reduce those impacts by getting back in touch with your humanity ...
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Well, it's part of the genre - people who can do things that ordinary people can't do look at the world in a different way. Big trolls can bench-press your car, they wouldn't think anything about lifting up a hundred-pound sack of flour, for example; all the metaraces can see in the dark one way or the other, so why bother with anything but night-lights in your house, you know?
One of the better ways I found of looking at this was a scale of what would be Negative Qualities - psychological and physical issues that develop from increasing amounts of implants as well as magic. Developed originally by Mary Kuhner, the writer of the Jayhawk fic (first bit here (http://www.skepticfiles.org/en002/jh001012.htm)), it tracked both cybernetic implants (CyberEssence) and magical power (Magic Essence); the latter went with a simple1:1 ratio of your Magic to your MagicEssence. How many (or how strong) your psych issues were was dependent on how much you had, which I formalized to one point of psychological problems per 0.5 of either CE or ME. You also had physical problems based on your Magic Essence, at 1 point's worth per full point of ME.
CE psych issues tended towards antisocial and dissociative behavior, seeing the world more as a machine, or just as the rest of reality being lesser. ME psych issues tended towards weirdly-social, even overly-social behavior, as well as obsessive/compulsive and 'lucky' activities. Physical issues tended towards allergies and dietary restrictions.
It led to some very interesting RP when I used it, and included some more interesting RP when I arranged for ways to reduce those impacts by getting back in touch with your humanity ...
I just feel that such things should be restricted entirely to 100% voluntarily qualities that can be taken or not depending on if they are wanted by the player (with the GM having Zero authority of 'bestowing' those). One shouldn't have their character treated like a freak because they built it to be very capable in its field.
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I don't disagree, honestly - but the social penalty applied is in this case less a matter of 'how you look at the world', and more about 'how the world looks at you'. Right now, the only way to track how much 'ware you have is through your Essence, which for these purposes kind of sucks. In some cases, you can have 5.99 essence worth of cyberware and all of it might be subtle, which means the world has no way of knowing that you ARE a wired-up ready-to-slaughter-everyone-in-the-room combat monster, you know?
So yeah, I'm kind of two minds about that myself.
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I think it's mainly an issue if you also dumpstatted Charisma as well as dropping your Essence, Charisma is twice as important after all.
(as, it seems, did 75% of our team!)
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I like the roleplaying aspects of augmentation, but I think it should cover a lot more ground than "You have low Essence, so people are automatically freaked out by you". I think people would act in many different ways to augmentations. Some people might react to them negatively, feeling freakish, or that they are being forced to sell away bits and pieces of their humanity to keep ahead of the rest of the street scum. Some people might react with joy and wonder to their enhanced capabilities. Suppose you were paralyzed from the neck down, but now you can run, leap, and dance. Suppose you were a nearsighted nerd with insomnia - now you are hot-looking, can see with 20/20 vision even at night, and you only need 3 hours of sleep a night. For some people, their enhanced capabilities might turn them a bit contemptuous of all of those plodding, weak, fragile meatbags; I imagine a combat-oriented adept might have a similar mindset.
Essence loss already does have a quantifiable penalty. I agree with All4BigGuns that additional effects should be something the player opts into, rather than the GM imposing additional NPC "reactions".
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The player "opted into" the additional effects when they decided to instal the 'ware in their character.
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But not everyone “opted into” additional effect covert under “optional rules”.
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The player "opted into" the additional effects when they decided to instal the 'ware in their character.
and thats why more and more Player opt for an awakened Char (just have a look at the new introduced Chars a majority is Awakened (and a majority of these are Adepts)
with a Dance to the "Prayerwheel" that SR5 turns into Magerun
Medicineman
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The player "opted into" the additional effects when they decided to instal the 'ware in their character.
No, the player did not opt into ridiculous punitives like that just by taking the implants on their character. Opting into such things would be taking a Negative Quality. Nothing else is acceptable for such.
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The player "opted into" the additional effects when they decided to instal the 'ware in their character.
No, the player did not opt into ridiculous punitives like that just by taking the implants on their character. Opting into such things would be taking a Negative Quality. Nothing else is acceptable for such.
Incorrect, seeing as a number of 'positive' qualities actually have negative drawbacks (some of them prohibitive). I consider that pretty ridiculous in most cases (sans mentor spirit, the drawbacks make sense there), but it's a part of the setting. If you get something in game, you have to take the consequences. It isn't ridiculous, and it fits the history of the setting and the lore.
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No, you are incorrect. What is ridiculous is the extra "viewed as a Freak" crap that got brought up. The hit to Social Limit probably should be played, but it should be played by the player with any NPC reactions along the "Freak" lines solely being from Negative Qualities.
Again, RP is important, but the Game Aspect is just as important. Actually more important since one can just sit down for cooperative Story Time for "Pure RP".
Okay, show me where, in the books, that I'm incorrect on a number of positive qualities having negative impacts (please, since you called me incorrect on that).
Now, would you show me where the books say you don't take social penalties from being 'wared up/having low Essence (hint, Core rulebook specifically says having 'ware gets you looked at much closer, further restricted, etc.)? Also, show me where such an idea goes against the theme of the game. Multiple editions would help.
Third, tell me where in the books it says you can get something for nothing (hint, take a look at pages 20-23 of the Core rulebook for the game's stance). Essence/humanity for 'ware is a common one.
It's not ridiculous. It's a part of the setting that the more 'ware you have/the less Essence you have, the less 'human' you are. In essence (ha, punny), the less Essence you have, regardless of being Drained by a Strain I Infected or from losing it to 'ware, the more of a freak you are. It's a mechanic that exists outside of negative qualities, but it's there.
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Point to where it states that everyone you meet will view you as "A Freak". That is what is ridiculous and where you are incorrect, and that is the point where the problem arose (that is further than the reduced Social Limit goes).
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Cyberware decreases your social limit, imposes possible social penalties for obvious augmentations (although not every NPC will be transhuman-phobic), requires fake licenses, can be detected by security scanners, and is vulnerable to hacking if you leave its wireless functions enabled (or works at reduced functionality if you leave the wireless off). No one is arguing against any of that (or at least, no one is arguing that this is not the RAW).
People are arguing against imposing additional, arbitrary negative NPC reactions to the PC. Players who take augmentations opt into penalties, but they shouldn't have to opt into GM bias.
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A4BG, please re-read the section on page 23 of the core book titled 'Wares: Paying With Your Soul. Also, please be aware that any time a player voluntarily reduces their Essence in order to gain something, they are making the conscious decision to make that trade. That is the very definition of "opting into" something. You are "opting", which is to make a choice, "into" the negatives and positives that come with that choice.
Just because you feel that game "balance" is somehow important to you doesn't mean that it's as important to everyone else. The only balance that matters is that between the players and the GM. Missions has strict rules specifically to make sure that the public games are "balanced" but anything outside the Missions framework is "opting into" the game that the GM and players develop. Some of those games will be very heavily focused on numbers and specifics, other games will be more like the "cooperative storytime" that you described. But all of these are entirely optional - hey, there's that root work "opt" again - for the player and the GM. And most importantly, for you and for everyone else.
If you can't respect the opinions of others, then you can hardly expect people to respect your opinions as well.
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Point to where it states that everyone you meet will view you as "A Freak". That is what is ridiculous and where you are incorrect, and that is the point where the problem arose (that is further than the reduced Social Limit goes).
Actually, I never said 'freak' until you brought up the term. I was using your terminology to get the point across at that point. On top of that, while you might have various issues from being a 'wared up mo-fo, not everyone is going to consider you a freak. A bunch will, but probably not your transhumanists, your fellow 'wared-up razorboys, etc. You also seem to have deleted the post where you brought up the word freak, but I quoted it for reference. On top of that, you might want to be more specific as to what you're saying is 'incorrect' at that point, because a blanket statement doesn't help in this situation.
As Namikaze mentioned (and I referenced), page 23 describes the situation. It is a fact of the game, and really; if a person literally replaces half of their body with cybernetic parts because they want to, how are they not a freak? I'm not making any aspersions against people who could be considered freaks, but it doesn't mean the term doesn't apply. At that point, I'd almost just flat-out apply the Freaks sidebar from Run Faster depending on how short of Essence they are and call it a day. Regardless, they opted into the deal, sans the GM drugging them and 'waring them up (a dick move) or feeding them to a vampire (a possibly dick move, depending on the situation).
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And how would you do that?
Take an Elf with CHA 6, WIL 4, Ess 0.x, wearing a Vashon Island Ace of Coins in the right place. He'd have a Social Limit of 9.
Having full 6.0 Essence would increase this limit by 2, but since a limit only matters for really high dicepools or the lucky, he should be more or less unaffected by his low essence.
Of course, in case he fails an opposed test because he has 9 hits and the opponent 10, you might argument with his low essence having impacted the negotiation/bluff/whatever. But imho this should be the only case: when essence causes you to lose hits.
Again, you're talking technicals; one wonders whether your games are just figuring out modifiers and rolling dice, or roleplay.
"Y'know, I like Sam. He's charming, he's witty, he's reasonable, and I like the way he smells. But there's something off about the guy - he's perfectly witty, his teeth are too straight, and he's reasonable just to the point where I want to say 'hell no!!' but can't, y'know? Unnerving."
And one wonders, if you're talking about playing The Sims or something related instead of Shadowrun ...
The "social stigma" would be far more appropriate as a situational modifier than as part of a limit, which might not even impact your performance at all. Because Essence as part of your Social Limit doesn't care at all about the target of your social interaction. A Johnson could be really glad about seeing his contractors as such professional beings, using so much potential to become better at their job, but another could be more frightened by that thought, maybe because he's awakened him/herself.
By forcing that "unnerving feeling" upon your players you are inventing mechanics that are not represented by the rules. The only thing coming close is that "wrong attire/wrong look" for etiquette, although that's also a bit of a stretch because of its aim at clothing.
So for all those who think like wyrm, I'd suggest to go with houseruled situational modifiers to have a reason to screw your players. Have fun with finding the right one for each situation.
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A couple of points, please.
1) You asked how I would 'do that', referring to me recommending GMs playing up the social aspect of the thing. You gave a technical answer (lower Social Limit), I gave a RPed one which does nothing to counter your technical answer, and in fact reinforces it - 'I can't say no, but he unnerves me.' Up to a point, that remains so - 'I can't say no' - until you reach that point, meaning the decreased limit of 'he unnerves me'.
2) At no time did I say that I was forcing that 'unnerving feeling' on players; it's for the GM to RP the entire rest of the world, as couched by NPCs and assisted by how the numbers (which you so readily and ably give) interact. You asked how I would 'do that', which I took to mean how I would RP a -1 to a character's limit, whether PC or NPC. If it's an NPC, you can describe their lowered limit in just the way I said above. Or you can have an NPC commenting on another NPC.
I'm not inventing any mechanics; I am giving a way to bring '-X to Social Limit' to life in a roleplaying manner, in contrast to simply regarding the technical character information and noticing he's got a 0.6 Essence and a -1 to his Social Limit because of it. Saying that I'm houseruling situational modifiers, or requiring them, or whatever, just ain't so; you're the one who's suggesting them, not I.
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How would you guys play up the disadvantages of awakened characters in social situations? Mages can look at another level of reality, channel awesome energy through their bodies, and communicate with alien intelligences (and compel them to perform tasks). Adepts have superhuman abilities, and like street samurai, they can operate on a whole different level than all of those slow, half-blind, pitifully limited "ordinary" humans. That is certainly enough to give them the same kind of psychotic superiority complex that someone heavily augmented can have. And you could say that awakened characters can feel a bit "off" to mundanes. Also, they are alternately idolized and feared by a populace whose understanding of magic is full of paranoia, misinformation, and unrealistic trid shows.
All types of shadowrunners have ways that they can make others feel ill at ease. It's fine to do so for augmented characters, but I don't think they need to be singled out for it. But GMs need to discuss things with their players - if having a fractional Essence means more than just the penalties in the book, the player should know what he or she is getting into.
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Situational modifiers are purposefully vague and should be used by GMs appropriately. If Mr. Johnson wants to hire a group with a cybered-up runner, he'll probably change his attitude appropriately. Same with mages and other awakened runners. The opposite can also be true. There are no hard and fast rules on this - the GM needs to make a decision on it, generally on the fly. No rule set can cover every possible permutation of things.
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How would you guys play up the disadvantages of awakened characters in social situations? Mages can look at another level of reality, channel awesome energy through their bodies, and communicate with alien intelligences (and compel them to perform tasks). Adepts have superhuman abilities, and like street samurai, they can operate on a whole different level than all of those slow, half-blind, pitifully limited "ordinary" humans. That is certainly enough to give them the same kind of psychotic superiority complex that someone heavily augmented can have. And you could say that awakened characters can feel a bit "off" to mundanes. Also, they are alternately idolized and feared by a populace whose understanding of magic is full of paranoia, misinformation, and unrealistic trid shows.
All types of shadowrunners have ways that they can make others feel ill at ease. It's fine to do so for augmented characters, but I don't think they need to be singled out for it. But GMs need to discuss things with their players - if having a fractional Essence means more than just the penalties in the book, the player should know what he or she is getting into.
While essence has nothing to do with if you will awaken or not, there could be some psychological scaring from the said awakening. But that would depend of the awakened individual, and just how smoothly their awakening went. (some describe it as going made, some as a bliss full experience.) From there, it depends on how and what they focus their magic on or into. A combat mage or adept is probably going to suffer from many personality flaws (and just no the ones you mentioned). Or, a Devote person could see themselves as "touched by God" and devote themselves entirely to healing magic. (although, for me, the whole "touched by God" thing also speaks to their psychological framework)
But, deep down, like all people in positions of power they have an "Ego issue" (to understated it). But does that translate into a social modifier? Being vain and shallow and thinking your are better then everyone else sounds like just the attitude of 99.999999999999999999% of Johnsons and corp execs. DO they get a social modifier too?
Essence is a very vague term for the intangible thing that makes you a "person" and not just meat. when you muck around with your body, adding in cyberware/bioware your not just replacing your arm or your eye, you are removing part of that intangible "spark" that makes you, you; And replacing it with something artificial, alien. The more you cut out, the more of "you", you remove. Sure you know your name, and your address, and your favorite color. You remember all the details that you learned through life. Nothing changes what you know.
What changes is how you respond. Someone tells a joke and everyone laughs, but you. You don't see the humor. IN fact, what is humor? You know it's supposed to be funny and make you laugh, but how? Why? What is the point?
You have a sister that you haven't seen in years. Now that you are augmented and in "the Biz" you've made enemies. One of them tracks your sister down and holds her hostage demanding you come to him. Why would you do that? I mean, she's your sister yes. But what does that mean? She's just a person that you haven't seen in years. There is nothing that sets her apart from anyone else, other then that she is blood. But what does that even mean? Should you go out and get hurt or even killed over some, basically random, person just because they are your sister? As you ponder this dilemma, you go back to watching the infomercial on the Speedy Blender Pro. Hey it's got a smoothie selection for your Protein shakes!
It's thoughts and responses like this that are responsible for the social hit due to cyberware.
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Which is why Kuhner & Co. had a 'deviation from baseline' as well, for both cyber- and magic-heavy characters. The issues you're discussing, Reaver, are - or at least can be - the same for a mage. Who is your sister, but someone who simply cannot do anything real and lasting? What is humor, but a paltry attempt to impinge upon the true essence of the world? Sure, Johnson has a 'I can do this, and you suck' attitude, but unless he's a mage too, it's just money and position, and those can be taken away in an instant. Magic is Power, and someone who can turn Johnson into a man-sized bonfire just by thinking hard about it is someone who is going to think differently about the universe and their position in it.
'Vanilla' Shadowrun doesn't account for that. To be fair, neither do I, in my more current playing. But nonetheless, it should affect the mage's interactions as much as the implant level does.
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While essence has nothing to do with if you will awaken or not, there could be some psychological scaring from the said awakening. But that would depend of the awakened individual.
My whole point is that augmentation, too, should depend on the individual. Sure, keep the quantifiable penalties. But someone with a low Essence isn't going to automatically not care if a sibling is kidnapped. That should be the player's choice. The comparatively minor effect on social skills means that even for low Essence, the effects are going to be subtle, something slightly "off" about an individual rather than a cyberzombie-like detatchment.
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Hence my approach. If a player wants to make their character worse (i.e. take NQs for them), more power to them. But there'll always be at least that subtle 'off'-ness about them.
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Let's say you got multiple cyberlimbs, damage compensator, platelet factories, bone lacing maybe etc
You feel less pain when you're hurt.When this happens, fear starts to lose its meaning.Survival insticts are not as sharp as they used to be, you must remind your body to take care of itself.So, you don't care as much as you did.
Let's say you got reflex recorders, knowsofts, skillsofts etc
You don't need to try as much anymore.You don't care as much.Why take the long way again?The only thing you need is nuyen.Nuyen will bring better 'ware.Who needs people anyway?They're dumb, they're clueless and they try to slow you down.
I love the whole idea behind augmentations and essence.When you start losing all those little things that make you human, you must find something to keep you from becoming a zombie.A code of honor, appreciation of arts, ideals etc.Things that humans can appreciate but are products of all those little things you are on the verge of losing forever.So much potential for roleplay.
I really don't think any negative qualities are required.IMHO If a character is more machine than flesh and he behaves like nothing's changed either he's pretending(so more potential for tragedy and good rp) or his player just doesn't get it.Yes the way to roleplay this loss of Essence should be the player's choice (mainly) but the GM should be able to provide some interesting opportunities for more rp, depending on the type of augmentations and the cosmetic changes of the character.
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I think people keep confusing low Essence with being a cyberzombie. If a player doesn't play his character as an apathetic robot going through the mere motions of being human, it might not be because he "just doesn't get it", but because he doesn't have the ability to read the GM's mind. A shadowrunner with a high level of augmentations is desperately seizing any edge available to keep ahead of the power curve, in one of the Sixth World's most dangerous professions. I have a hard time seeing any street samurai losing his survival instincts or drive for self-improvement, when his augmentations were taken to enhance those very things.
Augmentations offer plenty of roleplaying hooks, but if anything, Essence is overemphasized by too many people, and all of the other roleplaying opportunities get drowned out by the tired old "cyberware eats your soul" trope - when Essence is mainly a metagame limit to how much stuff you can cram into your body. Because again, the affects of low Essence are comparatively subtle.
I prefer to look at the other ways augmentations can affect a character. I played a street samurai who had mnemonic enhancers, and hated them, because when you do violence for a living, being able to recall it in perfect detail is a bad thing. Another character, not one of mine, had skillwires, and felt curiously distant when using them; it was like the software was doing it, not her - which could be both good and bad, depending. I think of synaptic boosters, and I remember all of the times I am stuck in a grocery line behind someone plodding like they're in slow motion, and you want to scream "Hurry up!" Having synaptic boosters, when most people don't, could feel like that, all the time. Augmentations can be cool, too. They can turn you from the nerd who got stuffed into lockers into someone who is buff and tough. They can give you sensations that humans couldn't experience before. They can make you literally superhuman.
Sure, the guy with cyberlimbs, a pain regulator, and skillwires might feel inhuman, disconnected from his own actions, a bit numb. But what about the guy with tricked-out cybereyes, muscle augmentation and toner, tailored pheromones, cerebral boosters, and a sleep regulator? Especially if before, he was a puny specimen with insomnia and poor eyesight? He probably feels great.
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The idea of someone who used to have poor eyesight now feeling great because they've got tricked-out cybereyes is an interesting one to me. Yes, the ability to wake up in the morning and see the clock without scrabbling for glasses is fantastic, and no longer tripping over a shoe in the middle of the night because you now have low-light vision is a trivial yet satisfying bonus.
However... the fact remains that your eyes are gone, and instead you have a pair of cameras installed. Just as when watching a movie you can tell the difference between HD and Standard definition you notice your eyesight is subtly different. You no longer get dry eyes so the need to blink as often is gone. No more squinting in bright sunlight - you've got Flare compensation that kicks in as necessary. Pretty soon you adjust to these changes and you can't understand why people try to avoid your gaze when talking face-to-face. They're probably completely unaware of doing so but rather they find that their eyes are starting to water sympathetically because of that unblinking stare.
Yes, the benefits of the hardware outweigh the petty downsides, but the lack of these little weaknesses are enough that people unconsciously notice that you are "different", and unfortunately humanity as a species does not readily embrace what is different. I live in an area known for its links to the military and yet you only have to see the unconscious reactions of people to wounded servicemen-and-women with missing limbs and/or prosthetics to realise the truth of this.
This, to me, is the quality of Essence - the more you deviate from the baseline in appearance the more the general populace is unconsciously disquieted.
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I think people keep confusing low Essence with being a cyberzombie. If a player doesn't play his character as an apathetic robot going through the mere motions of being human, it might not be because he "just doesn't get it", but because he doesn't have the ability to read the GM's mind. A shadowrunner with a high level of augmentations is desperately seizing any edge available to keep ahead of the power curve, in one of the Sixth World's most dangerous professions. I have a hard time seeing any street samurai losing his survival instincts or drive for self-improvement, when his augmentations were taken to enhance those very things.
Augmentations offer plenty of roleplaying hooks, but if anything, Essence is overemphasized by too many people, and all of the other roleplaying opportunities get drowned out by the tired old "cyberware eats your soul" trope - when Essence is mainly a metagame limit to how much stuff you can cram into your body. Because again, the affects of low Essence are comparatively subtle.
I prefer to look at the other ways augmentations can affect a character. I played a street samurai who had mnemonic enhancers, and hated them, because when you do violence for a living, being able to recall it in perfect detail is a bad thing. Another character, not one of mine, had skillwires, and felt curiously distant when using them; it was like the software was doing it, not her - which could be both good and bad, depending. I think of synaptic boosters, and I remember all of the times I am stuck in a grocery line behind someone plodding like they're in slow motion, and you want to scream "Hurry up!" Having synaptic boosters, when most people don't, could feel like that, all the time. Augmentations can be cool, too. They can turn you from the nerd who got stuffed into lockers into someone who is buff and tough. They can give you sensations that humans couldn't experience before. They can make you literally superhuman.
Sure, the guy with cyberlimbs, a pain regulator, and skillwires might feel inhuman, disconnected from his own actions, a bit numb. But what about the guy with tricked-out cybereyes, muscle augmentation and toner, tailored pheromones, cerebral boosters, and a sleep regulator? Especially if before, he was a puny specimen with insomnia and poor eyesight? He probably feels great.
You know your whole post is poorly aimed at mine if you read the last line:
" the way to roleplay this loss of Essence should be the player's choice (mainly) but the GM should be able to provide some interesting opportunities for more rp, depending on the type of augmentations and the cosmetic changes of the character."
So no need for mind reading etc.
If you feel that essence is just a number feel free to play it like this.But Essence is there to highlight the bargain.It gives you the opportunity to flesh out your character.Cyberpunk is about transhumanism and the cultural changes it implies.So, if transhumanism for you is just another stat, I have absolutely no problem with this, but in my mind "you just don't get" the setting.To each their own I guess.
If I played the puny specimen you mentioned I would probably be so excited from this brand new self that I would risk of becoming a chrome worshiper.Someone who considers cybered individuals to be superior
The ex-nerd turned strongman, well I would try to mimic the mindset of all those insecure guys who turned to steroids etc multiplied x10 because well, steroids don't actually turn you into a superhuman being, cyberware does.
Gaining all those things without actually trying, well you gotta start wondering if you lost something in the process.
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This, to me, is the quality of Essence - the more you deviate from the baseline in appearance the more the general populace is unconsciously disquieted.
While I think the rest of your post is sound, I couldn't disagree more with this last statement.
Essence doesn't have to about appearance. You can get 5.99 points of bioware and look exactly like you did before. Essence affecting social limits is to my mind about that uneasy feeling you get in the pit of your stomach because the guy you're talking to just seems... off.
Again, as I see it a GM is encouraged to apply situational modifiers; the wared-out, cyberlimb enhanced, armed-to-the-teeth street samurai will likely go over with the Hollywood glitterati at the Holistic Humanity party like a pile of cow dung on the dinnertable, so it's a fair bet his dice pools might take a hit. But amongst street toughs who not only respect modifications but are also card carrying members of the Transhumanist Movement, his dice pool might very well actually improve. Note however that these are situational modifiers, and not what the game describes as the unknown factor that puts people on edge around low-Essence characters.
Regardless of situational modifiers, the fact remains that people DO feel uneasy around people with lots of ware, and this is represented by your Social Limit taking a hit whether the 'ware is visible or not. No matter how "in" or "out" you are with a particular crowd, you'll find it difficult to completely overcome the fact that you are, irrevocably, less you than you were before the surgeries. Of course, making an effort to fit in (i.e. wearing the right clothes, bumping some novacoke, etc) can make all of that easier.
Ultimately, I feel like this argument boils down to how each individual views the setting. I personally find transhumanism a concept that is easy to identify with, so naturally I'm less inclined to think of 'ware as something that stands out and makes you less human in ways other than that described by the core rulebook in terms of mechanics. But, I also agree with several posters in this thread that there is a lot of roleplaying opportunities tied to having (significant amounts of) 'ware; whatever that becomes, though, ultimately ends up being the players choice influenced by the world around him, which ultimately is the GMs domain.
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Essence affects social limit exactly as much as Willpower, which for most is probably even harder for others to observe !
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I realised after I wrote the post that I hadn't made my final point anywhere near as clear as I could have. That's the problem with typing a stream of consciousness.
Appearance was the wrong word completely. I meant the more you deviate from the baseline in augmentation, the more the general populace is disquieted.
Of course, by the time I could change the post you had replied, so I wouldn't feel right simply editing the original text.
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Essence affects social limit exactly as much as Willpower, which for most is probably even harder for others to observe !
Exactly. It's there, but there really isn't a lot to grab onto, roleplaying-wise. You need to think about the positives and negatives of the individual augmentations, thinking "How would this change my character's outlook?" This will vary from character to character. One character might be able to get all kinds of things accomplished, because thanks to his sleep regulator, he only needs three hours of sleep a night. A different character might be floundering around, because all of a sudden, he has five extra hours in his day, and no idea what to do with them. I am playing one character, an ex-enforcer type, who has cerebral boosters: 2 and mnemonic enhancers: 2. For some characters, I might play up how they feel their mental abilties have expanded. For this particular character, I treat him more as a limited mind that has been overclocked. But augmentations should not be uniformly negative in their effects, on either the character, or on those he interacts with.
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Essence affects social limit exactly as much as Willpower, which for most is probably even harder for others to observe !
Exactly. It's there, but there really isn't a lot to grab onto, roleplaying-wise. You need to think about the positives and negatives of the individual augmentations, thinking "How would this change my character's outlook?" This will vary from character to character. One character might be able to get all kinds of things accomplished, because thanks to his sleep regulator, he only needs three hours of sleep a night. A different character might be floundering around, because all of a sudden, he has five extra hours in his day, and no idea what to do with them. I am playing one character, an ex-enforcer type, who has cerebral boosters: 2 and mnemonic enhancers: 2. For some characters, I might play up how they feel their mental abilties have expanded. For this particular character, I treat him more as a limited mind that has been overclocked. But augmentations should not be uniformly negative in their effects, on either the character, or on those he interacts with.
Agreed. I'm sketching out a short fiction piece that, among other things, looks at how having tailored pheromones impacts your day-to-day interactions with people, not just how well you negotiate with Johnsons. Are you really that good at sweet talking your girlfriend or is it the 'ware? Does she love you as much as you think she does, or is it the 'ware and the memory of how she feels in your presence? Is it fair that you always seem to win arguments in person but split 50/50 for arguments over your comm? Stuff like that adds dimension and flavor to augmentations beyond +X dice.