Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: SquirrelDude on <01-30-15/2254:20>

Title: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: SquirrelDude on <01-30-15/2254:20>
So one of the things that's come to annoy me from a simulationist perspective is how ammunition is sorted out and has to be purchased by weapon category. As someone with even a cursory knowledge of weapons, it drives me crazy that the ammunition for my light pistols doesn't work in my machine pistols doesn't work in my submachine guns. Obviously, a lot of this is done for reasons of game balance (see: No SMG has a base AP value), and this is more something I am trying to do as a thought experiment, but it is still something I'd like to try out.

The basic concept is that I'd trade weapon DV for ammunition DVs. Weapons would instead be listed as being able to fire a certain caliber of ammunition. That ammunition could then be covered across multiple weapons and weapon groups. Ideally, weapons that currently do the same DV+AP would also use the same ammunition.

Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Squirrel on <01-30-15/2316:05>
How do you take barrel length into account?

Imho you can improve SR in many ways. This is unlikely one of them. No real gain from switching the listings around. Seriously why would an Ares gun even fire ammunition from saeder even if it is the same weapon class or in your argument the same caliber? I would not be surprised if each con has their own ammunition as a form of costumer bond.

If you wont to be on the save side, limit ammo to each gun individually. I have rare had the problem of even needing to use ammo from a different gun. My characters don't spam that stuff. And if they did, they'd carry supply.

The current rule is ok. It is not perfect, but my point is, that this part of the rules does not need attention. The gain is just not worth the effort.
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Shaidar on <01-30-15/2324:19>
It has been tried many times all the way back to SR1, and it doesn't work out well.

If you want more realism try out GURPS Cyberpunk with GURPS Fantasy Races thrown in.
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <01-31-15/0126:32>
Or go see - if you can find them - either Raygun's Firearms or Blackjack's Firearms.  They quite extensively revised weapon, ammo, and armor rules to cleave to a more simulationist perspective.
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: All4BigGuns on <01-31-15/0223:00>
Quote from: SquirrelDude on <01-30-15/2254:20>
So one of the things that's come to annoy me from a simulationist perspective is how ammunition is sorted out and has to be purchased by weapon category. As someone with even a cursory knowledge of weapons, it drives me crazy that the ammunition for my light pistols doesn't work in my machine pistols doesn't work in my submachine guns. Obviously, a lot of this is done for reasons of game balance (see: No SMG has a base AP value), and this is more something I am trying to do as a thought experiment, but it is still something I'd like to try out.

The basic concept is that I'd trade weapon DV for ammunition DVs. Weapons would instead be listed as being able to fire a certain caliber of ammunition. That ammunition could then be covered across multiple weapons and weapon groups. Ideally, weapons that currently do the same DV+AP would also use the same ammunition.

To be honest, this is a "It ain't broke, so don't try and 'fix' it." scenario. All you'd end up doing is creating an overcomplicated mess for no real benefit, IMO.
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Medicineman on <01-31-15/0249:32>
Quote from: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <01-31-15/0126:32>
Or go see - if you can find them - either Raygun's Firearms or Blackjack's Firearms.  They quite extensively revised weapon, ammo, and armor rules to cleave to a more simulationist perspective.
but for SR3 ;) they need to be converted to SR5
@squirreldude
a few Days ago I've been reminded to two american expressions: Can of Worms and Barrel of Monkeys.
Are You ready to open these ?
If you want to change the Damage by Caliber you should consequently also change the Damage by Range and also by Barrel length. that means you need three colums per Caliber
be ready to write long lists  and you should also be ready for a lot of discussions with your fellow Players.....

He who dances on a close Lid
Medicineman
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Reaver on <01-31-15/0510:04>
And, where do you draw the line?

If you look at today's firearms, .357 .45 .44 10mm are all considered to be "heavy" handgun rounds, so do you wan to divide the field up that far?

You mentioned machine pistols, well, the most common round for the MP is the 7.65mm or the .380, and of course 9mm.

Then you get into sniper rifles and assault rifles and oh my! What a mess....


Leave as is and be happy, it could be much, much worse!
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <01-31-15/0625:29>
Bullet caliber, bullet weight, powder charge weight, barrel length ... it'd be a mess.  And, of course, you couldn't just swap ammo from one to the other.  ;)
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Sendaz on <01-31-15/0819:40>
And that is assuming you don't offer different ammo loads for the same calibre.

Take a simple .22 for example.

The bolt action can handle both short and long rifle round.

But the long round semi-auto rifle can have issues with misfeeding shorts if you want to be using it in semi mode.

Tubular mags work fine, other clips depends a bit as I have seen some work fine while others jam like mad.

Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Medicineman on <01-31-15/0901:24>
Barrel of Monkeys
Can of Worms
Drum of Calibre
is it all the same ?

with a round Dance
Medicineman
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: SquirrelDude on <01-31-15/0930:07>
To handle the most common objections to the idea: 

"What about barrel length and ammunition weight." Whatever. I don't feel any great need to address those things because I can more easily compartmentalize barrel length as being related to accuracy and weapon range groups. As for ammunition weight, I'm fine with that being rapped up in basic ammunition DV. I don't see this as an all or nothing situation.

"What about Sniper Rifles." I actually don't mind the idea that sniper rifles would all take custom ammunition. It kind of makes sense for such precision weapons, really. The bigger issue is actually machine guns, which are all over the place in DV and AP values.

"Ammunition from pistols wouldn't work in SMGs.": Yes they do. You can take your .45 ACP ammunition right out of your Colt 1911, put it straight into a UMP .45, and the UMP will fire it fine.

Unless Ares decided to put RFID tags in every single bullet they produce, and an RFID tag reader in every gun they manufacture, their guns will fire any brand of ammunition you put into them. I wouldn't necessarily put that past a megacorp, but that seems like a waste of energy on their part. It would be easier for them to make it so that all their small arms used the same calibers of ammunition.


Quote from: Reaver on <01-31-15/0510:04>
And, where do you draw the line?

If you look at today's firearms, .357 .45 .44 10mm are all considered to be "heavy" handgun rounds, so do you wan to divide the field up that far?

You mentioned machine pistols, well, the most common round for the MP is the 7.65mm or the .380, and of course 9mm.

Then you get into sniper rifles and assault rifles and oh my! What a mess....

Leave as is and be happy, it could be much, much worse!
Fortunately, as they are my biggest buggaboo, holdouts through SMGs are the easiest weapons to work with. Every weapon (heavy pistols are the one issue), has a base DV, once you take flechette ammunition into account from 6 to 9. Heavy pistols are the one exception, as they all have a -1 AP.

If not for that extra -1 AP every heavy pistol gets, you could easily wrap up every gun from Hold Out through SMG with 4 calibers, but I don't know if I want there to be 3 calibers (maybe .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and .357) to be specific for heavy pistols. The solution to that problem could be just giving some SMGs some AP. At least that way the heavier caliber pistol rounds would be carried across platforms.
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <01-31-15/1010:16>
I don't personally see the worth in this, but that being said I think machine guns could be boiled down to a mere three calibers; 5.56mm NATO (.223), 7.62mm NATO (.308), and 12.7mm NATO (.50).

Consider this; machine guns are classed from light to heavy with damage value ranges from 9 to 12. Anything on the lower end of the scale is likely to be firing 5.56mm rounds, while anything on the upper end is likely a much heavier caliber like 12.7mm. I'd simply make any weapon with a DV of 9 fire 5.56mm, any weapon with a DV of 10 fire 7.62MM, and any weapon with a DV of 11 or 12 fire 12.7mm.

If you wanted more granularity, you could always add a fourth caliber for the DV 11 weapons; 8.58mm (.338) is typically a sniper rifle round in modern times, but I could see 2075 corporations using it for their heavier weapons. This could also be used to address assault rifles with DVs of 11, resulting in assault rifles firing the same calibers as machine guns up to, but not including, 12.7mm rounds.

You'd end up with the following calibers and weapons in the AR and MG categories.

5.56mm
AR: Colt M23, HK XM30, Nitama Optimum II
MG: GE Vindicator, Ingram Valiant, SA Nemesis

7.62mm
AR: AK-97, AK-98, FN HAR
MG: Stoner-Ares M202, Ultamax MMG

8.58mm
AR: Ares Alpha, Yamaha Raiden
MG: FN MAG-5, Ultamax HMG-2

12.7mm
MG: RPK HMG, Ruhrmetall SF-20

To my mind, though, all you're doing with this exercise is breaking the weapon groups up by caliber instead of type. If you really care about the simulationist aspect of things that much I say go for it. Not my cup of tea, but can definitely be done. I'd probably pick anywhere from 8 to 12 calibers and assign one of them to each weapon based on DV and category more than anything just to keep things manageable, though.
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Medicineman on <01-31-15/1057:24>
on of the biggest Problem:
 which weapon is which Calibre ?
 what ammo does an Ares Predator I III or V use ?
 what is the Calibre of a Colt Manhunter or an Ares Alpha Combatgun ?
 
and what is the damage code of explosive Ammo from a .22 Bullet compared to explosive Ammo from 12.7mm ?
(just one of many examples) You can't just assume its the same +1DV /-1 AP

with an explosive Dance
Medicineman
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: SquirrelDude on <01-31-15/1106:37>
Quote from: Herr Brackhaus on <01-31-15/1010:16>
Cut to save space
I like the suggestions for the machine guns and ARs. I'll keep them in mind. As I said before, the biggest issue is AP, but if I'm changing the way damage works, I don't see why I couldn't also change AP values.

Quote
To my mind, though, all you're doing with this exercise is breaking the weapon groups up by caliber instead of type. If you really care about the simulationist aspect of things that much I say go for it. Not my cup of tea, but can definitely be done. I'd probably pick anywhere from 8 to 12 calibers and assign one of them to each weapon based on DV and category more than anything just to keep things manageable, though.
That was the basic idea. Using Pistols through SMGs as an example. I think I would get rid of 8p +0AP weapons, and replace them with either 7P -1AP or  8P -1AP. All listed ammunition calibers should probably have "equivalent" written behind them. Weapons with an asterisk next to them are weapons I have moved from the 8p +0AP group to a different group.

6p : 9x19mm
Hold Outs Streetline Special, Fichetti Tiffani Needler, Tiffani Self-Defender
Light Pistols Ares Light Fire 75, Ares Light Fire 70, Beretta 201T, Nitama Sporter, Shiawase Armaments Puzzler, Taurus Omni-6
Machine Pistols Cesska Black Scorpion, PPSK-4, Ultimax 70

7p : .38 special
Hold Outs Walter Palm Pistols
Light Pistols Colt America L36, Fichetti Executive Action, Fichetti Security
Machine Pistols Ares Crusader II, Onotari Arms Equalizer, Steyr TMP
SMGs Ares Executioner, Colt Cobra TZ-120, HK-227, UZI IV

7p -1AP: .40 Auto
Light Pistols Taurus Omni-6
Heavy Pistols Ares Viper Silvergun, Cavalier Deputy, Colt Government 2066, Onotari Arms Violator, Remington Roomsweeper
SMG Ingram Smartgun X*, SCK Model 100*

8p -1AP: .45 ACP
Heavy Pistols Ares Predator, Browning Ultra-Power, PSK-3 Collapsible Heavy PIstol, Savalette Guardian
SMG FN P93 Praetor*, HK Urban Combat*

9p -2AP: .357 Magnum
Heavy Pistols Ruger Superwarhawk
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <01-31-15/1111:58>
Not bad, seems appropriate to me. With the 3 or 4 additional calibers from ARs and MGs, that brings the total to 8 or 9, most of which could likely be used for sniper rifles as well. 7.62mm and up certainly are hunting/sniper rifle calibers, though it would mess up the DV usage.

That just leaves shotguns, really.
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: MijRai on <01-31-15/1139:58>
Quote from: Medicineman on <01-31-15/1057:24>
on of the biggest Problem:
 which weapon is which Calibre ?
 what ammo does an Ares Predator I III or V use ?
 what is the Calibre of a Colt Manhunter or an Ares Alpha Combatgun ?
 
and what is the damage code of explosive Ammo from a .22 Bullet compared to explosive Ammo from 12.7mm ?
(just one of many examples) You can't just assume its the same +1DV /-1 AP

with an explosive Dance
Medicineman

As far as what caliber it is, that's easy enough; you pick when you purchase, and note it with the other weapon values/modifications on the gun.  A lot of pistols nowadays have multiple models or variants that fire different caliber ammunition.  Glock, for example, has a lot of pistols that are mostly the same; some adjustments to the feed, chamber and barrel.  It's really the only difference in a number of cases.  The Glock I have has two variants, a 9x19 Parabellum and a .40 S&W.  I've seen upper mods for AR-15s/M-16s to switch that rifle to anything from 7.62x39 to .22, and the AR-10 is an AR platform firing 7.62x51. 

The one thing I'd do with the current chart is use .32 or .25 caliber for Holdouts, for the most part, and maybe lose the .38 Special. 

Also, this is the picky-asshole part of me, but your .45 ACP doesn't have the best penetration qualities.  It's a heavy round with a lower muzzle velocity, which leads to good stopping power but not so much on the penetration aspect; at the same time 9x19 is too light.  .40 S&W generally has the best qualities to have an AP quality.  Maybe throw in some other rounds, something like the 5.7x28, which is growing in popularity recently. 
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Spooky on <01-31-15/1159:19>
The problem I see with doing this is that you can easily keep expanding the caliber list until you have a sheet that is so long it becomes difficult to compare items effectively. If you really want that, go for it, but I will stick with the existing tables.
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: SquirrelDude on <01-31-15/1243:54>
Quote from: MijRai on <01-31-15/1139:58>
Quote from: Medicineman on <01-31-15/1057:24>
on of the biggest Problem:
 which weapon is which Calibre ?
 what ammo does an Ares Predator I III or V use ?
 what is the Calibre of a Colt Manhunter or an Ares Alpha Combatgun ?
 
and what is the damage code of explosive Ammo from a .22 Bullet compared to explosive Ammo from 12.7mm ?
(just one of many examples) You can't just assume its the same +1DV /-1 AP

with an explosive Dance
Medicineman
The one thing I'd do with the current chart is use .32 or .25 caliber for Holdouts, for the most part, and maybe lose the .38 Special.

Also, this is the picky-asshole part of me, but your .45 ACP doesn't have the best penetration qualities.  It's a heavy round with a lower muzzle velocity, which leads to good stopping power but not so much on the penetration aspect; at the same time 9x19 is too light.  .40 S&W generally has the best qualities to have an AP quality.  Maybe throw in some other rounds, something like the 5.7x28, which is growing in popularity recently.
Yeah, .38 special is something of an outdated round, but I'm not as up to date on modern small arms ammo calibers as I would like to be. Don't worry about being picky with the .45 ACP having AP. In many cases, the lack of penetration is actually a selling point for the round. I do want to keep the 9x19mm as an option, if only because it's the standard sidearm ammo for so many countries in the world and for so many target shooters.

I was more or less just going small diameter to larger diameter (.357 magnum notwithstanding) as a starting point and to illustrate that pistols, MPs, and SMGs could actually be pretty easily shifted to such a framework.
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: mjack on <01-31-15/1613:45>
Calibers:

- Pistol Light    (PL): DV  6P, AP  0
- Pistol Medium   (PM): DV  7P, AP  0
- Pistol Heavy    (PH): DV  8P, AP -1

- Rifle Light     (RL): DV  9P, AP -2
- Rifle Medium    (RM): DV 11P, AP -2
- Rifle Heavy     (RH): DV 13P, AP -4

- Shotshell       (SS): DV 12P, AP -1

- Cannon Shell    (CS): DV 16P, AP -6

- Special Purpose (SP): Varies

Rules:

Annotations:
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: SquirrelDude on <01-31-15/1835:12>
@mjack: That's very interesting. I'll have to consider it some more.

In the meantime, here is my adjusted attempt at adding calibers to everything from pistols to Sniper Rifles using Herr Brackus and MijRai's suggestions. Shotguns are still out of the loop There will be an asterisk next to weapons that have changed DV and AP values.

6p : 9x19
Hold Outs Fichetti Tiffani Needler, Fichettie Tiffani Self-Defender, Streetline Special
Light Pistols Ares Light Fire 70, Ares LIght Fire 75, Beretta201T, Nitama Sporter, Shiawase Armaments Puzzler, Taurus Omni-6
Machine Pistols Ceska Black Scorpion, PPSK-4 Collapsible Machine Pistol, Ultimax 70

7p : .357 Sig
Hold Outs Walther Palm Pistol
Light Pistols Colt America L36, Fichetti Executive Action, Fichettie Security 600
Machine Pistols Ares Crusader II, Steyr TMP
SMGs Ares Executioner, Colt Cobra TZ-120, HK-227, Onontar Arms Equalizer, Uzi IV

7p -1AP : 5.7x28
Light Pistols Taurus Omni-6
Heavy Pistolsj Ares Viper Silvergun, Cavalier Deputy, Colt Government 2066, Onontari Arms Violator, Remington Roomsweeper
SMGs Ingram Smartgun*, SCK Model 100*

8p -1AP : 10mm
Heavy Pistols Ares Predator V, Browning Ultra-Power, PSK-3 Collapsible Pistol, Savalette Guardian
SMGs FN P93 Praetor*, HK Urban Combat*

9p -2 AP Pistol : .44 Magnum
Heavy Pistols Ruger Super Warhawk

9p -2AP Rifle : 5.56x45 NATO
Assault Rifles Colt M23, HK XM30, Nissan Optimum
Machine Guns Ingram Valiant, SA Nemesis

10p -2AP : 6.5 Grendel
Assault Rifles AK-97, AK-98, FN HAR
Machine Guns GE Vindicator Mini-Gun*, Stoner-Ares M202*, Ultamax
Sniper Rifles Pioneer 50*

11p -2AP : 7.62x39 NATO
Assault Rifles Ares Alpha, Yamaha Raiden
Machine Guns FN MAG-5*
Sniper Rifles Ruger 100*

12p -4AP : .50 BMG
Machine Guns RPK HMG, Ruhrmetall SF-20, Ultamax HMG-2
Sniper Rifles Cavalier Arms Crocket EBR*, Onotari JP-K50*, Remington 950

13p -4AP : 12.7x104 (I admit, I actually had to make a caliber of bullet here)
Sniper Rifles Ares Desert Strike

14p -5AP : 12.7x108
Sniper Rifles Ranger Arms SM-5, Barret Model 122*

15p -4AP : 14.5x114 (This is an AA/AT round)
Sniper Rifles Terracotta Arms AM-47


Annotation:
 - 8p +0AP damage code was removed from the game.
 - Lots of LMGs and Sniper Rifles had their damage values adjusted.
 - The Ares HVAR, an Assault Rifle with 8p AP+0 damage code, would need to either be massively increased in damage or fire pistol rounds. I chose to remove it from this system because the gun is garbage.
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: MijRai on <01-31-15/2043:55>
10mm?  I love me some Fallout!
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Reaver on <02-01-15/0518:47>
Quote from: MijRai on <01-31-15/2043:55>
10mm?  I love me some Fallout!

It's a good round. Fast, good penetration and good stopping power.

Colt and several others make several handguns in !0mm.
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Tarislar on <02-01-15/1125:13>
Quote from: SquirrelDude on <01-31-15/0930:07>
"Ammunition from pistols wouldn't work in SMGs.": Yes they do. You can take your .45 ACP ammunition right out of your Colt 1911, put it straight into a UMP .45, and the UMP will fire it fine. 

I'm curious.  What is it that your hoping to accomplish here?
What sort of game mechanic is it that your hoping to change.
Are you trying to have 3 different pistols, along with an MP & SMG on you that all fire the same ammo?
Given most of them use clips, I'm not sure what sort of space savings your getting.
Cost is already the same. 

Frankly, as a player,  I'm glad that someones SMG no matter the brand, has ammo that all works for me.  That way even if I'm not interested in salvaging guns & having to change over ownership, I can always just take some spare clips off the bodies & use that ammo in my own clips later.

Quote
If not for that extra -1 AP every heavy pistol gets, you could easily wrap up every gun from Hold Out through SMG with 4 calibers, but I don't know if I want there to be 3 calibers (maybe .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and .357) to be specific for heavy pistols. The solution to that problem could be just giving some SMGs some AP. At least that way the heavier caliber pistol rounds would be carried across platforms.
And why would there be only 4 calibers?
I mean right now just off really common rounds, I can think of a lot more then that to fill that many weapon groups.
.22LR, .22Short, .25ACP, .380Auto, .38Special, 9MM, 10MM, .40SW, .45ACP, .45Long Colt, .44Magnum, .357 Magnum.
And that isn't even touching what I'd call "exotics" like .454 Casull , .41 Magnum, 9mm Luger, .50AE.  Etc etc.

But realistically I think that -1AP is there to represent the fact that you see more Handguns loaded in Magnum calibers than you ever would SMG/MP.


Quote from: Herr Brackhaus on <01-31-15/1010:16>
I don't personally see the worth in this, but that being said I think machine guns could be boiled down to a mere three calibers; 5.56mm NATO (.223), 7.62mm NATO (.308), and 12.7mm NATO (.50).
Personally I'm not a fan of .50BMG being anywhere on the MG list as that minor DV boost isn't at all accurate compared to what a .50 does v/s a 5.56 or 7.62.  It should be reserved for DV's in the 14+ range IMHO.
But, that nitpick aside, if you needed a caliber for DV11, I'd go old school 30-06 BAR just for the MG list, but really, I'd do something like below.



For the sake of a complete list,  I thought I'd see what I could come up with.
6DV - 22LR
7DV - .380
8DV - 9MM
9DV - .45ACP  or 5.56MM  or .410-Gauge    (Depending on frame)
10DV - 6.8MM or 20-Gauge
11DV - 7.62*39 or 16-Gauge
12DV - 7.62*51 or 12-Gauge
13DV - .30.06 or 10-Gauge
14DV - .50BMG

Not that I call this list a good one, over all, I feel the DV's are really too limited, but in the end, its a game so I don't care.
But if I had to label a DV, I'd go with the above as a good starting point.
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: SquirrelDude on <02-01-15/1134:34>
Suggesting names for the calibers. Honestly, the calibers probably wouldn't change that much, though the materials they're made of and the quality of gunpowder might have.

Pistols/SMGs:
Current | Fluff |Damage|Weapons
9mm | 9mm | 6p | Fichetti Tiffani Needler, Streetline Special, Tiffani Self-Defender, Ares-Light Fire 75, Ares Light Fire 70, Beretta 210T, Nitama Sporter, Shiawase Armaments Puzzler, Taurus Omni-6, Ceska Black Scorpion, PPSK-4 Collapsible Machine Pistol, Ultimax 70
.357 Sig | .360 S&K | 7p | Walter Palm Pistol, Colt America L36, Fichetti Executive Action, Fichetti Security 600, Ares Crusader II, Steyer TMP, Ares Executioner, Colt Cobra TZ-120, HK-227, Onotari Arms Equalizer, UZ IV
FN 5.7x28 | FN 5.7x30 | 7p -1AP | Taurus Omni-6, Ares Viper Silvergun, Cavalier Deputy, Colt Government 2066, Onontari Arms Violator, Remington Roomsweeper, Ingram Smartgun X*, SCK Model 100*
10mm | 10.5mm | 8p -1AP| Ares Predator V, Browning Ultra-Power, PSK-3 Collapsible Pistol, Savalette Guardian, FN P93 Praetor*, HK Urban Combat*
.44 Magnum | .44 Super Magnum | 9p -2AP | Ruger Super Warhawk

Rifles/MGs:
Current |Fluff |Damage |Weapons
5.56x45 NATO | 5.56x50 Corp. Court | 9p -2AP | Colt M23, XM30, Nissan Optimum, Ingram Valiant, SA Nemesis, Pioneer 50*
6.5 Grendel | 6.6 Ares | 10p -2AP| AK-97, AK-98, FN HAR, GE Vindicator Mini-Gun*, Ultamax
.30-06 | .30-61 | 10p -3AP | Stoner Ares M202
7.62x39 | 7.62x40 Shiawase | 11p -2AP | Ares Alpha, Yamaha Raiden
7.62x51 NATO | 7.62x54 Corp. Court | 11p -3AP | FN MAG-5, Ruger 100
7.92x57 | 7.92x61 Ruhrmetall| 12p -4AP | RPK HMG, Ruhrmetall SF-20, Ultamax HMG-2*, Cavalier Arms Crocket EBR*, Onotari JP-K50*, Remington 950
.338 Lapua | .340 Magnum | 13p -4AP | Ares Desert Strike
.50 BMG | 12.7x103 Barret | 14 -5AP | Barret Model 122*, Ranger Arms SM-5
12.7x108 | .55 Terracotta | 15 -4AP | Terracotta Arms AM-47

Shotguns:
Current |Damage |Weapons
20 Gauge | 10p -1AP | Defiance T-250
16 Gauge | 11p -1AP | PJSS Model 55, Remington 990
12 Gauge | 12p -1AP | Franchi SPAS-24, Mossberg AM-CMDT
10 Gauge | 13p -1AP | Auto-Assault 16, Enfield AS-7
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <02-01-15/1142:50>
This is a similar to the post by Tarislar (but not as well laid out).

10mm is really close to the .40S&M (but may not have the pen power of the 10mm, as the caliber was the same but the 10mm has about a .7mm longer case). Also you dropped the .40 S&W, but becoming a highly popular round.
This is the can of worms people are talking about. I want the .460 S&W magnum, similar but higher velocity as the .500 S&W. Or this round, better, this round with this much powder (and this grain quality), using this kind of primer..... Oh, I can get my dad's tables he uses to hand load his 25-06 and 30-06 if we want some real fun.

Honestly, I am of the boat of to much realism is a bad thing. But if your table enjoys it, have fun.
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Tarislar on <02-01-15/1146:58>
Quote from: SquirrelDude on <02-01-15/1134:34>
Suggesting names for the calibers. Honestly, the calibers probably wouldn't change that much, though the materials they're made of and the quality of gunpowder might have.

10mm Ares 11mm
.44 Magnum .44 Super Magnum
7.62x39 NATO 7.62x40 Corp. Court

Question
1.  Are those "New" names actual SR fluff ammo from various sources?    And the "Current" names are Real World?

If that is the case, then some suggestions
2.  Ares 11MM would be .45ACP.   10MM is already a "Magnum" level load really.  and 11MM "Magnum" would be the same as .44 Magnum.
3.  7.62*39 isn't NATO.  That is the AK47 round.  NATO uses the 7.62*51
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: SquirrelDude on <02-01-15/1206:44>
Quote from: Tarislar on <02-01-15/1146:58>
Question
1.  Are those "New" names actual SR fluff ammo from various sources?    And the "Current" names are Real World?

If that is the case, then some suggestions
2.  Ares 11MM would be .45ACP.   10MM is already a "Magnum" level load really.  and 11MM "Magnum" would be the same as .44 Magnum.
3.  7.62*39 isn't NATO.  That is the AK47 round.  NATO uses the 7.62*51
1. Yes
2. Derp. I was just messing around with numbers there. If it's wrong, w/e. I'm not opposed to scrapping all/redoing all of it.
3. Double derp. Got my 7.62s mixed up. The 7.62x51 would probably be useful caliber for spacing out the machine guns, though. I'll keep it in mind.

Quote from: Rift_0f_Bladz on <02-01-15/1142:50>
This is a similar to the post by Tarislar (but not as well laid out).

10mm is really close to the .40S&M (but may not have the pen power of the 10mm, as the caliber was the same but the 10mm has about a .7mm longer case). Also you dropped the .40 S&W, but becoming a highly popular round.
I was going to pick 10mm or .40S&W. I don't really have a preference for one or the other. 10mm just has a bit more pop to it, so I went with that.

Quote from: Tarislar on <02-01-15/1125:13>
Quote from: SquirrelDude on <01-31-15/0930:07>
"Ammunition from pistols wouldn't work in SMGs.": Yes they do. You can take your .45 ACP ammunition right out of your Colt 1911, put it straight into a UMP .45, and the UMP will fire it fine. 

I'm curious.  What is it that your hoping to accomplish here?
What sort of game mechanic is it that your hoping to change.
Are you trying to have 3 different pistols, along with an MP & SMG on you that all fire the same ammo?
Given most of them use clips, I'm not sure what sort of space savings your getting.
Cost is already the same. 

Frankly, as a player,  I'm glad that someones SMG no matter the brand, has ammo that all works for me.  That way even if I'm not interested in salvaging guns & having to change over ownership, I can always just take some spare clips off the bodies & use that ammo in my own clips later.

Quote
If not for that extra -1 AP every heavy pistol gets, you could easily wrap up every gun from Hold Out through SMG with 4 calibers, but I don't know if I want there to be 3 calibers (maybe .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and .357) to be specific for heavy pistols. The solution to that problem could be just giving some SMGs some AP. At least that way the heavier caliber pistol rounds would be carried across platforms.
And why would there be only 4 calibers?
I mean right now just off really common rounds, I can think of a lot more then that to fill that many weapon groups.
.22LR, .22Short, .25ACP, .380Auto, .38Special, 9MM, 10MM, .40SW, .45ACP, .45Long Colt, .44Magnum, .357 Magnum.
And that isn't even touching what I'd call "exotics" like .454 Casull , .41 Magnum, 9mm Luger, .50AE.  Etc etc.

But realistically I think that -1AP is there to represent the fact that you see more Handguns loaded in Magnum calibers than you ever would SMG/MP.
Eh, as much as I wouldn't mind having so many calibers, they'd probably all just end up getting squeezed into a DV/AP value. Similar to how the vehicle chart shows you one vehicle, and then gives you comparable/equivalent models. I don't have much opposition to doing that later, though it would definitely increase the amount of times a player couldn't find extra ammunition for their weapons of dead gangers/corp sec.

Quote
For the sake of a complete list,  I thought I'd see what I could come up with.
6DV - 22LR
7DV - .380
8DV - 9MM
9DV - .45ACP  or 5.56MM  or .410-Gauge    (Depending on frame)
10DV - 6.8MM or 20-Gauge
11DV - 7.62*39 or 16-Gauge
12DV - 7.62*51 or 12-Gauge
13DV - .30.06 or 10-Gauge
14DV - .50BMG

Not that I call this list a good one, over all, I feel the DV's are really too limited, but in the end, its a game so I don't care.
But if I had to label a DV, I'd go with the above as a good starting point.
I like the list. 6.5 vs 6.8 is basically a judgement IMO, and I could go either way without any hurt feelings. I somehow didn't come across 7.62x51, and it's definitely a a caliber I should keep in mind.

Edited my list to react to the suggestions.
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: mjack on <02-01-15/1602:54>
GH3: Colt New Model Revolver - DV 5P AP 0
This damage code is where .22 LR would fit. DV 6P AP 0 may be something like .32 ACP (aka 7.65x1tmm Browing) then.

GH3: Colt Agent Special -DV 8P AP 0
Heavy Pistol Ammunition and Taser Ranges. The stats associate it pretty exactly with .45 ACP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP).

R&G: Ares HVAR - DV 8P AP 0
Makes a good equivalent for the HK G11 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G11) in SR. Associated caliber could be 4.73x33mm then.

There are some more damage codes in GH3 requiring attention.
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Tarislar on <02-01-15/1657:45>
Quote from: mjack on <02-01-15/1602:54>
GH3: Colt New Model Revolver - DV 5P AP 0
This damage code is where .22 LR would fit. DV 6P AP 0 may be something like .32 ACP (aka 7.65x1tmm Browing) then.
I didn't check GH3 so I didn't see a DV5 weapon but I agree,  DV5 would be .22LR,  DV6 would be 32ACP
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: SquirrelDude on <02-01-15/1713:55>
Quote from: mjack on <02-01-15/1602:54>
GH3: Colt New Model Revolver - DV 5P AP 0
This damage code is where .22 LR would fit. DV 6P AP 0 may be something like .32 ACP (aka 7.65x1tmm Browing) then.

GH3: Colt Agent Special -DV 8P AP 0
Heavy Pistol Ammunition and Taser Ranges. The stats associate it pretty exactly with .45 ACP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP).

R&G: Ares HVAR - DV 8P AP 0
Makes a good equivalent for the HK G11 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G11) in SR. Associated caliber could be 4.73x33mm then.

There are some more damage codes in GH3 requiring attention.
8P AP 0 is the one caliber I wasn't sure there was enough ammunition for it to be worth my time implementing at first place. I shifted most of them over to other values. The HVAR is the one exception because don't feel like adding an extra caliber for a lone dumpster fire of a weapon.

I don't have GH3, but I might need to check it out.
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: SquirrelDude on <02-01-15/2222:00>
My first impressions after reading GH3.

1. All the Assault Rifles are wrong.
2. Disappointed in the lack of heavier weapons
3. Where is there errata for this book?

Still. It's neat.

Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <02-02-15/0113:52>
Majority of the AA (don't mind the Colt Inception, view it as civy weapon) are bad. But some of the best guns are in it (excluding the erratad Rain Forest) such as the Krim Wave and Remington Suppressor. Both are excellent choice for price and stats compared to similar classed weapons.
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: mjack on <02-02-15/1249:29>
Quote from: SquirrelDude on <02-01-15/2222:00>
1. All the Assault Rifles are wrong.
They ain't! Just some more variation of damage codes ::)
Quote
2. Disappointed in the lack of heavier weapons
This volume of the Gun H(e)aven series was mainly about reintroducing Sporting Rifles. More guns in future volumes … I hope.
Quote
3. Where is there errata for this book?
There is none. But at least the Rain forest Carbine's stats were fixed in the SR5 Mission FAQ (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=18342.0).
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Medicineman on <02-02-15/1316:02>
hmmmm
there is a BIG difference between a FAQ  (especially a Missions FAQ) and an oficial Erratta !!

with a different Dance
Medicineman
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <02-02-15/1352:10>
Quote from: Medicineman on <02-02-15/1316:02>
hmmmm
there is a BIG difference between a FAQ  (especially a Missions FAQ) and an oficial Erratta !!

with a different Dance
Medicineman
I'm going to have to disagree with you there; until errata is released you can bet your britches that the Missions FAQ is as close to a balanced review of a controversial rule as you'll get.

For people who like arguing RAW it might not do the trick, but for actual players, it's more than "close enough".
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Medicineman on <02-02-15/1407:33>
Quote
For people who like arguing RAW it might not do the trick, but for actual players, it's more than "close enough".

Well I AM a actual Player ( SR for about 20 Years now ;) RPG for 30+ Years Mind You )
but here in Germany Your Missions are quite unimportant.
whats in the Books, in the Erratta and in official Adventures has more weight
And I don't need to argue, I just tell you how it is here in Germany

he who dances in breeches
Medicineman
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <02-02-15/1418:53>
I don't mean to be a total jerk here, but really Medicinman, you can choose to use the content or not, no skin off my back.

I honestly couldn't care less if you've played for 50 years of 5 days; at least there's some sort of guidance from Bull out there in the form of the Missions FAQ. It can be useful when something obviously broken (*cough* Rain Forest Carbine *hark*) comes along, and though it might not be as official as Errata it's something, at least. All I'm saying...
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Namikaze on <02-02-15/1442:45>
Quote from: Medicineman on <02-02-15/1407:33>
but here in Germany Your Missions are quite unimportant.

That's debatable.  There are several Missions groups in and around Germany.  What you might not consider important is not the same as the whole of Germany.
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Medicineman on <02-02-15/1505:36>
Quote from: Namikaze on <02-02-15/1442:45>
Quote from: Medicineman on <02-02-15/1407:33>
but here in Germany Your Missions are quite unimportant.

That's debatable.  There are several Missions groups in and around Germany.  What you might not consider important is not the same as the whole of Germany.

ok , let me rephrase it
  not as important here in Germany than they are in the US .
there are some Missions groups...:D
 even one of my 3 SR4A  rounds is a former SR3 Missions round
but nevertheless  the US Missions are (relatively) unknown around here
and far less important
Quote
I don't mean to be a total jerk here, but really Medicinman, you can choose to use the content or not, no skin off my back.
I didn't want to...step on Your Toes, but I don't like being called " not a real player" that was when I felt insulted
...and with this last remark I'll step away from Your back (slowly, still watching you, with a held action, just in case
GM ; If he makes a sudden move I'll shoot first !...)


HokaHey
Medicineman
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: jim1701 on <02-02-15/1527:19>
This is just my opinion but I believe that if the change to the Rain Forrest Carbine to be official errata.  Otherwise they would just have banned the item from Missions Play.  I can't imagine CGL wanting to open a can of worms where a single piece of equipment has two "official" sets of stats.
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <02-02-15/1807:51>
Medicineman, Missions are a baseline / benchmark way of looking at How The Devs Are Thinking.  Contrary to the opinion of a number of people I've run into, Bull doesn't make these decisions and all on his own; there is discussion about this.  Which means that if you think it needs errata, but it hasn't come out yet, seeing how the more-restrictive Missions playgroups are instructed to handle an issue or item is going to give you an idea of how it is generally meant to be handled.

Whether you play it or not, Missions IS part of the Shadowrun line - which means it is, in a lot of ways, official.
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: SquirrelDude on <02-02-15/2220:45>
After looking at the errata for the Rain Forest. On one hand, I'm glad it was changed because it was ridiculous. On the other, I'm a little sad such a unique/interesting weapon was made so ordinary.
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Medicineman on <02-03-15/0246:49>
Quote
Medicineman, Missions are a baseline / benchmark way of looking at How The Devs Are Thinking.  Contrary to the opinion of a number of people I've run into, Bull doesn't make these decisions and all on his own; there is discussion about this.
Oh, I truly beleive that there is some communication between the Devs (and I consider Bull to be one of them)
 but what's really strange is :
 Why isn't the BBB the Baseline & Benchmark of how the Devs are thinking ???
And If they change their Minds why don't they produce an official Erratta ?
(Hell, when I read all the Forums , most of the faulty Rules are already discussed . The Guys responsible at CGL just need to read and work from what the other users have already provided !  its a work that has already been 1/2 done)

 
Quote
Which means that if you think it needs errata,
I'll do it on my own for my own Groups. I'm used to working independantly .
What ails me is that there is so few support for Erratta from CGL. When I go to conventions (which I do quite often) to have Fun with a table full of strange Players that I don't know I make sure that my Chars are RAW so that wa all have a common Ground from where we can start to play.

Quote
Whether you play it or not, Missions IS part of the Shadowrun line - which means it is, in a lot of ways, official.
as I mentioned  before, one of my GMs is using Missions for one of our Campaigns (I'm playing in 3 different atm)
but German conventions are a bit different from US Conventions.
Apart from a Session being 6,8 or  sometimes even 10 Hours ,and apart from playing often continously (often I've been playing for a whole Weekend 32 - 34 Hours in a Row, 5-6 Runs/Games , not only Shadowrun but also other RPGs) there are seldom Missions runs.
 There's lot of Support (I used to be Supporter myself, but it's a few Years ago ) but the Support is for the official Adventures not for the Missions.
for Big Events like the RPG in Cologne or the Spiel in Essen there's more often Introducory Sessions of only 2-4 Hours with Mini Runs like Foodfight , but at regular Conventions (like the Feencon, Dreieich or Ratcon) the Runs/Adventure are often quite long (6 Hours Minimum. ). and for small conventions (only 100-250 Players like Morpheus ,Krähencon or Klingencon) when there is no official Support most of the Runs/Adventures have as a default Line that all Chars are Raw .
 Pegasus tried Hamburg Missions once a few Years ago for SR 4A but there was no demand from German players to continue it so the Support for German Missions ceased.
So, to make it a long story short :
 Yes, Missions exist, ( I know it, and I even use it at home) but its not so important when its concerning official Material , official Rounds in Germany ! What is important in  Games/sessions at Conventions is the oficial Erratta and whats in the Books !
and when there is no official Erratta for the Rainforrest Carbine there WILL be players with chars equipped with that Gun (with 14 P Damage and AP -4 ) and my fellow Supporters (I still consider them my Friends & Comrades ! )
will have trouble preventing that


with a Dance beyond the Benchmark
Medicineman

P.S.
Sorry SquirrelDude for kidnapping Your thread :)
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <02-03-15/0256:26>
... because 'Errata' does not mean 'quick and dirty fix'?  Missions rulings sometimes are, until errata can be developed properly.  Errata is, by nature, correcting a conflict (or poor wording) of or between rules - not (generally) an alteration of them.  What you're wanting, also, is a fan-based correction of the rules, instead of them being worked on internally.  There are ten thousand fans, and even among the hundred we have here, there are vociferous disagreements.  There are maybe a few dozen freelancers, and maybe a dozen actual employees (and, IIRC, few of those are full-time) assembling the game.  So you can either get your fix now, or you can wait for exhaustive testing, take your pick.

What I really get from your statement is 'I don't care what CGL may have already done in addressing my issues, I want them addressed the way I've already decided they should be addressed, and get it done yesterday, already.'  Which is fine; you can say that.  Don't expect it to actually happen, though.
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Namikaze on <02-03-15/0300:30>
Quote from: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <02-03-15/0256:26>
*snipped*

+10 Internet Points
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Medicineman on <02-03-15/0308:56>
Quote
What I really get from your statement is 'I don't care what CGL may have already done in addressing my issues, I want them addressed the way I've already decided they should be addressed, and get it done yesterday, already.'  Which is fine; you can say that.  Don't expect it to actually happen, though.
then You're getting it totally Wrong ! :)
What You should get is:
Dear CGL, it's OK that You have Missions FAQ,  but (please ) make Your changes officially by presenting an Erratta because ( like with every other RPG or Manual ) only an Erratta is valid !
and also
Why ( the Hell) are some of the Missions Rules different from the BBB. why isn't the Big Basic Book the Basseline of Your  Edition of Shadowrun ?
---
If You read my last Post with this in the Back of Your Head you'll understand me better

HokaHey
Medicineman
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Darzil on <02-03-15/0512:05>
Quote from: Medicineman on <02-03-15/0308:56>
Why ( the Hell) are some of the Missions Rules different from the BBB. why isn't the Big Basic Book the Basseline of Your  Edition of Shadowrun ?
As I understand it, the rules are balanced for campaigns with one GM, whereas Mission Rules have to be balanced for one offs, and for multiple missions with different GMs.

Personally I think it's a shame that errata seem to take so long to come out. I'm not sure why it is necessary to wait til you have a whole edited volume of Errate in a pdf download, rather than posting them in a blog somewhere (where they might get discussed), and then collecting them later. I imagine though, that the reason is that it's nobodies job, and an errata doesn't directly make money (though it does indirectly, a quickly errata'd rulebook would get more praise, a better reputation, and would ultimately be played more).
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: mjack on <02-03-15/0612:32>
STOP IT  ;D

We originally had another incredible meaningful discussion about calibers in Shadowrun ... Things are getting pretty offtopic now.
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: SquirrelDude on <02-03-15/2127:02>
So many damage values.

Also, I totally didn't get distracted and decide to create a spreadsheet that has every firearm's (sans assault cannons/exotics) stat line, including their price, rating, and attachments that come standard.  ::)
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Namikaze on <02-04-15/0052:06>
ROFL SquirrelDude.  :)  I think maybe now you can appreciate why all ammo is typed by weapon category, rather than caliber?  I actually have no problem with adjusting to a caliber-driven system, but it has to be abstracted to keep myself sane.
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Shaidar on <02-04-15/0436:25>
Now you're starting to see why...

Quote from: Shaidar on <01-30-15/2324:19>
It has been tried many times all the way back to SR1, and it doesn't work out well.

If you want more realism try out GURPS Cyberpunk with GURPS Fantasy Races thrown in.

It is much more work than it is worth.
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: SquirrelDude on <02-04-15/1120:48>
Honestly, even after looking at it, I still find it relatively easy to imagine a game where calibers are used instead of weapon damage values. The biggest issues with this are the sniper and sporting rifles, which have damage values that jump all over the place.

Even with GH3, Machine guns require a little bit of parsing down, but everything else is easy.
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: mjack on <02-06-15/2004:49>
Quote from: SquirrelDude on <02-04-15/1120:48>
Honestly, even after looking at it, I still find it relatively easy to imagine a game where calibers are used instead of weapon damage values.
Of course it works. Just a different solution to apply damage codes to weapons. But if you are looking for some acceptance for your homebrew you should consider to make not that many changes to the existent system. Tweaking stats is not only more work, but also makes it less compatible with future releases because of constant conversion required. Not to mention those people (essentially those with who you play) who do not like how you tweak and convert. Something practical should be build on top of the current rules.
Quote
The biggest issues with this are the sniper and sporting rifles, which have damage values that jump all over the place.
You might assume these guns using less common calibers and associate them with special purpose cartridges. Pretty simple and not unusual for both firearm classes.

I went all the way you are currently going. Investigating SR firearms, reading about different more or less common calibers, working out different approaches and cramming my desk with tons of notes. I had fun doing it because I love keeping my brain busy in my free time with such stuff. And although I never seriously planned to pick up this house rule at my table I asked my players to assess. Expectedly, feedback was not that good with counterarguments meanwhile being well known and absolutely valid.

Namikaze made a good point here. Abstract the system as much as possible and do not be afraid of compromises reflecting less realism in favor of playability. My suggestion on page 2 of this thread is the current state of development I came up with after getting to this realization. Keep it simple, stupid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle) ;)

I hope this helps - at least a bit - to find your very own key to the implementation of calibers in YourGame™.
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: SquirrelDude on <02-06-15/2148:55>
It's more fun as a thought experiment than something I'd try to implement in a game, especially not one that required a large variety of weapons. I'll still keep it all in my back pocket for a rainy day, and the feedback on how to do it was very helpful. Again, I think it can be done, but it's a change to the basic rules of the system, so it's inherently very complicated.

I'll keep in my back pocket for a rainy day (in the desert) that it will be helpful, but I'm going to to put so much focus on things that I don't expect to use in a game.
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Tarislar on <02-15-15/1622:34>
Quote from: Medicineman on <02-03-15/0308:56>
What You should get is:
Dear CGL, it's OK that You have Missions FAQ,  but (please ) make Your changes officially by presenting an Erratta because ( like with every other RPG or Manual ) only an Erratta is valid !

Bull has the ability to address glaring single issues like the Mystic PP's 2v5 & Rainforest Carbine 11v14 w/o waiting for errata on the entire product to be completed.  After all, errata comes in Minor-Moderate-Huge sized problems. 
What is better, getting some quick fixes out on those HUGE ones quickly, or letting them hang around till every Minor spelling issue is resolved for a full errata on a 400 page book? 
Me, I like that he gets some big stuff addressed early.

Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Medicineman on <02-15-15/1749:57>
for Me & at my tables I don't care about either Missions FAQ or Erratta , I'm using Houserules that fit our gaming style.
(I keep informed by reading FAQs and the Forums but I make my own decisions which rules I use and which I don't)
But for RAW Gaming Sessions at  Conventions only the Books and official Errattas are what's important
and thats a fact :) not a matter of opinion

HokaHey
Medicineman
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <02-15-15/1756:49>
For RAW Gaming Sessions at conventions, using the Missions rules - despite the claim that Germans don't use Missions - is a good blanket solution.  YMMV, and clearly yours does, Medicineman, but we're not talking just about you at the moment ...
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Medicineman on <02-16-15/0414:09>
 
Quote from: Medicineman on <02-02-15/1407:33>

ok , let me rephrase it
  not as important here in Germany than they are in the US .
there are some Missions groups...:D
 even one of my 3 SR4A  rounds is a former SR3 Missions round
but nevertheless  the US Missions are (relatively) unknown around here
and far less important
HokaHey
Medicineman

I only wrote that Missions are not as important in Germany.
And just to make Sure You understand that its different in German conventions :
 There are officially supported Shadowruns (from Pegasus)
but there's more often private Rounds , private People meeting there for a Game of Shadowrun
(and for them its mostly either : "we play RAW "or the GM says :" I've got the following Houserules"....)
 

with a Dance in the right Claim
Medicineman
P.S. maybe one of the Mods could cut & transport this part of the Disussion in another Thread ?
Title: Re: Trying to switch from ammo by weapon group to ammo by caliber
Post by: Ursus Maior on <02-16-15/0427:38>
It's a fun thing to tinker with in your mind. And I absolutely agree, the ammo-per-weapon-type idea is not one of my favorite SR-ideas. But what would your solution mean for your players? Any net hits there? A huge system will simply mean you have to have a catalogue and then keep an even more complex list who owns how much ammo of what type and configuration. And then: Many weapons can fire diffrent types of calibres by purchasing after market products. How would you take that into account? AR-15 in 7,62 anyone?

What I do is allow certain types of ammo to work in specific (houseruled) weapons. Like a plinking rifle (c.f. GH3) that uses light pistol ammo and uses SMG rangebands. But these are easter-eggs for me.