Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: gradivus on <02-02-15/2125:48>
-
The four metasapients listed in run faster all start with MR 1 as opposed to the normal metatypes (and their variants) that start at 0. So, what happens if you choose let's say Magic Priority D which is normally Adept MR 2 or Aspected Mage MR 2. Are your MR 2 or do you add the natural MR 1 to it and so are MR 3? I tend to think it's the former but there is no explanation that I see in Run Faster to cover it.
Thoughts?
-
Any variant that has a listed MR, has it listed because of some special ability they have.
It does not mean they are 'awakened' in the normal sense of the word. (They are not mages or adepts)
If you decide to make an awakened meta variant, your priority selection replaces the stated MR. (You do not add them)
-
Metasapients and shapeshifters who select Priority A, B, C, or D for Magic have their natural Magic of 1 replaced with their new Magic attribute.
So the former.
-
And just to add, unless you pick a awaken "quality," your max magic is 1. Meaning you can't raise it with karma, and you burn out if you lose essence.
-
And just to add, unless you pick a awaken "quality," your max magic is 1. Meaning you can't raise it with karma, and you burn out if you lose essence.
Which makes any power they may have that is based on magic fairly useless IMHO. Personally I believe you should be able to raise your magic stat normally both at chargen and after. Having a magic stat greater than one does not mean you get to cast spells or use adept powers unless you paid for the ability to do so.
Besides this seems to point to the fact this is actually RAW to allow metasapients and shifters to raise their Magic:
Special attribute points can be used to increase the natural Magic attribute of a metasapient or shapeshifter, and the attribute can also be increased through Karma purchase as part of normal character advancement.
-
Yeah, I'd say DeathStrobe is well-off on that one. Sorry, DS.
-
Easy when a line is taken out of context. The entire paragraph from Run Faster, page 102, where that is taken from is talking about metasapients and shapeshifters who select a Priority other than E to Magic.
"Metasapients and shapeshifters who select Priority A, B, C, or D for Magic have their natural Magic of 1 replaced with their new Magic attribute. Character options that have a natural Magic attribute cannot also have a Resonance attribute and thus cannot select that option during character creation. Special attribute points can be used to increase the natural Magic attribute of a metasapient or shapeshifter, and the attribute can also be increased through Karma purchase as part of normal character advancement. If a character’s Magic is reduced to 0 through Essence loss, they cannot use any abilities tied to Magic per the rules on p. 278, SR5."
All in all, sure, I'd say that single line jim1701 pointed out will allow any metasapient or a shifter to raise their Magic by spending special attribute points and/or karma, sure. However, the chart on page 105 states that the maximum Magic for all of them is 1, and unless you take something like Exceptional Attribute or have a Priority other than E to Magic to increase that maximum then you're stuck. If metasapients and shapeshifters were meant to have a Magic higher than 1 without taking an Awakened quality of some kind, then why do the charts that actually list the ranges for all of their Attributes have only a "1" for MAG (accounting for the missing EDG in shifters that skews the title bar for Attributes).
-
\You are misunderstanding the chart, I think - that, and for the four metasapients you're looking at, there simply IS no maximum listed, it's just '1', instead of - for example - the shapeshifter's general '1/5', just like all the other 'Starting/Maximum' ratings. That doesn't mean that they can't have anything higher; that indicates that they always start out with a magic of 1. Yes, it's incompletely done, but no, it doesn't mean what you think it means. Sorry.
-
So then, what you're saying is that since there is no range or maximum listed, metasapients have no maximum Magic whatsoever? That even without being an Adept or a Magician, a pixie can, for example, as a Priority A metatype choice start with a Magic of 7 and increase its Magic as high as karma allows and without Initiation? And I guess you're also saying that shapeshifters don't have Edge at all since it's not even labeled on their Attribute Table (sucks to be them, luckless bastards); guess that +#d6 is supposed to be meaningless after all.
Otherwise, yes, I wholly agree with you that it was ineptly done. At least Runner's Companion was clearer, and in more ways than one.
-
So then, what you're saying is that since there is no range or maximum listed, metasapients have no maximum Magic whatsoever? That even without being an Adept or a Magician, a pixie can, for example, as a Priority A metatype choice start with a Magic of 7 and increase its Magic as high as karma allows and without Initiation? And I guess you're also saying that shapeshifters don't have Edge at all since it's not even labeled on their Attribute Table (sucks to be them, luckless bastards); guess that +#d6 is supposed to be meaningless after all.
Otherwise, yes, I wholly agree with you that it was ineptly done. At least Runner's Companion was clearer, and in more ways than one.
OK, two very sensible things to counteract the straw man army.
Metasapiants are just like Metahumans, their Magic is limited by their Essence which since it's never mentioned being higher or lower is 6. Gee, wow isn't THAT simple?
Also when discussing how to create a Shapeshifter it mentions that all Shapeshifters have an Edge score of 1/4.
-
Metasapiants are just like Metahumans, their Magic is limited by their Essence which since it's never mentioned being higher or lower is 6. Gee, wow isn't THAT simple?
Except that the Exceptional Attribute quality can be applied to any Attribute, including MAG/RES. Means that Magic is not explicitly tied to Essence and/or Initiation alone.
And even if metasapients and shapeshifters are supposed to have a range for Magic, why does that "Metasapients and shapeshifters who select Priority A, B, C, or D for Magic have their natural Magic of 1 replaced with their new Magic attribute." line even exist? What exactly is being replaced? If Magic can be increased without having a magic quality, then is Magic supposed to be reset back to 1 if one happens to actually awaken as a full blown magician later? If that single sentence wasn't even in the book on page 102, and MAG was not detailed on the following charts on page 105, I'd wager that there'd be a whole lot less confusion about this particular Attribute in this case. Certainly seems simpler for the Infected later on, even if that bit is still a little messy.
Also when discussing how to create a Shapeshifter it mentions that all Shapeshifters have an Edge score of 1/4.
Not if you go by the chart on page 105. Even if you account for the missing EDG column label most of the shifters actually have an Edge range of 1 to 5; only the two big cats have a 1 to 4. Nice contradiction going on there in the book. Really lends credibility to the whole deal. *sarcasm*
-
Alright...
Yes, there are qualities to raise it above the normal maximum, but that doesn't change how the normal maximum works, so don't really see how that invalidates anything.
All shapeshifters have an Edge attribute range of 1 to 4.
Clear enough for you? I mean seems pretty conclusive to me rather than going off assumptions that there's nothing firm to go on.
-
Spellbinder, you're being just as ludicrous as you're suggesting that I am - you're demanding that everything must be perfect, that the book contains no errors, at least in that portion. It's self-evident that there are errors; one should assume, as a baseline, that metasapients have stat ranges in Magic and Edge equivalent to the general metahuman baseline, i.e. 1/6. Or at least, that's what the rest of us are assuming; you can assume what you wish.
-
The line I quoted referred to the metasapient's natural magic attribute. As you so ably pointed out their natural magic attribute is replaced if they become awakened so the terminology would seem to indicate it is for those non-Awakened with a magic attribute. I would also point out that in 4th edition also allows non-awakened metasapients and shifters to raise their magic as well (pp 84, 87 of Runner's Companion) so this is not a new concept.
-
Well, none of the races in the core book has their magic rating listed at all on page 66. But we all know a human (A) cant bump all his special attribute points into the magic stat, awakened or not.
Im with the others here. Meta sapients start at 1, which will be replaced by the new magic rating from the magic or resonance column. Or alternatively they could just use their karma/special attribute points on raising their magic attribute.
-
Metasapients can't have resonance... no one with a magic rating can.
-
The four metasapients listed in run faster all start with MR 1 as opposed to the normal metatypes (and their variants) that start at 0. So, what happens if you choose let's say Magic Priority D which is normally Adept MR 2 or Aspected Mage MR 2. Are your MR 2 or do you add the natural MR 1 to it and so are MR 3? I tend to think it's the former but there is no explanation that I see in Run Faster to cover it.
Thoughts?
It replaces the natural, so you're magic 2.
Non-Mage/Adept shifters can raise their magic stat like normal but can't initiate and can lose magic by essence loss, possibly trapping them in their animal form, and they don't gain any power points or anything by raising their magic unless they're an adept or what not.
-
The question/debate/argument this has moved to, really, is whether or not non-mage metasapients can raise their magic - even/especially when the chart has their magic at a flat rate of '1'. I presume the chart is in error, and they can. Spellbinder believes the chart to be accurate, and thinks they cannot. Take your pick.
-
tbh, if you're not awakened, why would you waste karma on increasing your MAG anyways? it only really affects shifters who want to take ware which is a bit of an odd concept anyway. I mean the tiger or eagle would need to find a vet who's willingly going to source cyberware and install it, and I can't really imagine in-game that there are huge amounts of vets with the skills to install custom cyberware into tigers let alone actually getting the access to these incredibly rare implants lol
If you are an awakened metasapient (mage/adept), you'll have a higher MAG than the starting 1 so it kinda makes it a moot point unless I've missed something obvious.
-
Because it isn't just shapeshifters - it's pixies, centaur, etc. Because some of their abilities are magic-based, so having a higher magic would be good for them.
-
Because it isn't just shapeshifters - it's pixies, centaur, etc. Because some of their abilities are magic-based, so having a higher magic would be good for them.
This.
Granted it would probably be more efficient to just be awakened and have a regular magic attribute but I think a "mundane" metasapient character with a decent magic attribute to power some interesting tricks could be fun too.
-
Yeah the inate powers can benefit, like a Centaur's Search ability.
Would make a good bounty hunter or PI gumshoe (gumhoof?)
-
Gumhoof, certainly! Also, don't some of the other metasapient have some cool innate power, like invisibility, etc. that run off of force for duration, or am I completely wrong on that? I would go with they can raise it like any other special attribute.
-
Pixies have Concealment (self only) which applies a dice pool penalty equal to their magic to any perception rolls against them. Add a good sneak roll to a decent magic rating and that is one stealthy character.
-
Pixies have Concealment (self only) which applies a dice pool penalty equal to their magic to any perception rolls against them. Add a good sneak roll to a decent magic rating and that is one stealthy character.
wow, ok, that is well worth it then.
Guess I skimread that section....
-
Infected type I characters would also have a very tough time if their magic attribute could not be raised. Essence Drain is an Extended Magic + Charisma (10 - target's essence, 1 minute) test. If I'm a Vampire with 1 magic and 4 Charisma I might starve to death just because I don't have enough dice to feed!
-
Infected type I characters would also have a very tough time if their magic attribute could not be raised. Essence Drain is an Extended Magic + Charisma (10 - target's essence, 1 minute) test. If I'm a Vampire with 1 magic and 4 Charisma I might starve to death just because I don't have enough dice to feed!
Sucks to be a vampire. Eh! EH! :D
-
Infected type I characters would also have a very tough time if their magic attribute could not be raised. Essence Drain is an Extended Magic + Charisma (10 - target's essence, 1 minute) test. If I'm a Vampire with 1 magic and 4 Charisma I might starve to death just because I don't have enough dice to feed!
Sucks to be a vampire. Eh! EH! :D
(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/66/66cfb755d32616d6fc14b4f340bf5e846cfcf66b03238cc3ab6826ad9eae456f.jpg)
-
Yup, that's why we hang out in places like this: the "humor"....
-
We have a guy at my table who loves bad puns, if they are bad enough we throw a big foam die at him.
-
At my LGS, we have a foam cube that has "fireball" written on it. That's what we chuck at bad punners. Bad runners just get shot... *****ducking the fireball*****
-
So then, what you're saying is that since there is no range or maximum listed, metasapients have no maximum Magic whatsoever? That even without being an Adept or a Magician, a pixie can, for example, as a Priority A metatype choice start with a Magic of 7 and increase its Magic as high as karma allows and without Initiation? And I guess you're also saying that shapeshifters don't have Edge at all since it's not even labeled on their Attribute Table (sucks to be them, luckless bastards); guess that +#d6 is supposed to be meaningless after all.
Otherwise, yes, I wholly agree with you that it was ineptly done. At least Runner's Companion was clearer, and in more ways than one.
OK, two very sensible things to counteract the straw man army.
Metasapiants are just like Metahumans, their Magic is limited by their Essence which since it's never mentioned being higher or lower is 6. Gee, wow isn't THAT simple?
Also when discussing how to create a Shapeshifter it mentions that all Shapeshifters have an Edge score of 1/4.
I guess I'm a little late to this discussion, but yes, this. Magic usually has a max of essence, unless it's modified by something else, the only two examples I can think of being Initiation and the exceptional attribute quality.