Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: LordGrizzle on <02-04-15/2217:51>
-
Hello!
I am struggling with the wording for injection toxins. It says they can be coated onto a weapon and be applied with any attack that deals damage. Does that mean anything but a grazing blow applies the poison, or is the poison also ineffective if my armor roll reduces the final damage to zero?
Thanks!
-
My reading is that any hit, even a grazing hit, delivers the toxin. I would also say that if the Soak roll reduces the damage to zero, the poison didn't make it into your system.
-
My reading is that any hit, even a grazing hit, delivers the toxin. I would also say that if the Soak roll reduces the damage to zero, the poison didn't make it into your system.
I would handle the soak roll as the initial Toxin Resistance test. Otherwise, spot on.
-
My reading is that any hit, even a grazing hit, delivers the toxin. I would also say that if the Soak roll reduces the damage to zero, the poison didn't make it into your system.
Which begs the question, what kind of grazing hit actually inflicts damage? As far as I know, touch-only attacks are the only attacks that can inflict damage on a grazing hit, in most (every?) other cases a grazing hit means no damage from the weapon attack.
My reading is that any hit, even a grazing hit, delivers the toxin. I would also say that if the Soak roll reduces the damage to zero, the poison didn't make it into your system.
I would handle the soak roll as the initial Toxin Resistance test. Otherwise, spot on.
Oh? As far as I can tell, a character hit by a weapon coated with toxins should by all rights get both a damage resistance test and a toxin resistance test. Remember, the toxin resistance test is not made until the end of the appropriate combat turn as per the speed of the toxin, and when you roll to resist damage you get to include armor, which is not applicable to resist toxins. To my mind, the two have to be separate tests for all intents and purposes because they use slightly different mechanics (AV and Rating of protective gear, with different results for most toxins based on remaining power vs specific attributes for example).
-
My reading is that any hit, even a grazing hit, delivers the toxin. I would also say that if the Soak roll reduces the damage to zero, the poison didn't make it into your system.
Which begs the question, what kind of grazing hit actually inflicts damage? As far as I know, touch-only attacks are the only attacks that can inflict damage on a grazing hit, in most (every?) other cases a grazing hit means no damage from the weapon attack.
Good Point, shouldn't that be the one thing that differentiates injection vector toxins from contact vector toxins? Not sure about that but it seems logical to me.
-
I think Contact Vector would require getting though Chemical Protection, however.
-
Oh? As far as I can tell, a character hit by a weapon coated with toxins should by all rights get both a damage resistance test and a toxin resistance test.
I'm not talking about weapons coated in a toxin. I'm talking about injection vector toxins delivered via a weapon. Narocject pistols, chemical rounds, etc. If you hit someone with a knife that's coated in a toxin, then sure they should get both resistance tests.
-
For injection based toxins I would run it as did the soak stop all damage, if so the armor stopped the round (needle, knife, etc) from penetrating far enough to actually poison the target.
-
hhm If a character was attacked by a poisoned knife, but his armour rating was high enough to convert the damage to stun. Wouldnt he then be safe from the toxin? as the attack didnt penetrate the armour but just gave him some blue bruises.
-
That's a good question, given that nose bleeding f.Ex. is stun damage.
In most cases it should be physical, which means you'd need called shots to really do damage to heavily armoured individuals.
-
The big issue is the vector. In this case injection.
If the attack is with a weapon like an arrow or knife, then the projectile has to enter the target enough to deliver the toxin to the blood stream.... so if the attack does no damage, did it puncture the skin to deliver the toxin?
I say no. If the weapon's damage is negated, then the toxin does nothing.
-
The big issue is the vector. In this case injection.
If the attack is with a weapon like an arrow or knife, then the projectile has to enter the target enough to deliver the toxin to the blood stream.... so if the attack does no damage, did it puncture the skin to deliver the toxin?
I say no. If the weapon's damage is negated, then the toxin does nothing.
I agree. It's not the physical/stun aspect so much as it's the binary value of damage done or not. Damage <= 0, no toxin. Damage >0, toxin.
-
Oh? As far as I can tell, a character hit by a weapon coated with toxins should by all rights get both a damage resistance test and a toxin resistance test.
I'm not talking about weapons coated in a toxin. I'm talking about injection vector toxins delivered via a weapon. Narocject pistols, chemical rounds, etc. If you hit someone with a knife that's coated in a toxin, then sure they should get both resistance tests.
Ah, I see. Those would still not deliver toxins on a grazing hit, though, would they?
-
Oh? As far as I can tell, a character hit by a weapon coated with toxins should by all rights get both a damage resistance test and a toxin resistance test.
I'm not talking about weapons coated in a toxin. I'm talking about injection vector toxins delivered via a weapon. Narocject pistols, chemical rounds, etc. If you hit someone with a knife that's coated in a toxin, then sure they should get both resistance tests.
Ah, I see. Those would still not deliver toxins on a grazing hit, though, would they?
Not an injection vector... as a grazing hit doesn't do damage, thus no contact with the blood steam.
However, if the vector was 'contact' then yes a grazing hit would be enough.
-
Indeed; Capsule Rounds seem to be the best option for that kind of delivery system, paired with DMSO. Who needs the Super Squirt...
-
I would rule that unless the toxin has been combined with DMSO - thus making it a contact poison (or a contact poison as well) - that if the armor converted it to Stun, yes, there was no penetration. I might - depending on the situation - rule that if the character didn't take any Physical damage at all, there was no penetration, but that's tough to make a blanket rule for. An edge is going to cut and deliver the toxin, even if it was just a scratch to the troll or street sam, but an injection dart might not get enough purchase to do so.
-
Seriously, capsule rounds are the shizzle. My wife made a character once that was into poisons, used crossbows, etc. It quickly became apparent that the capsule rounds and pistols would have been a better option (statistically speaking anyway, her character was still badass).
-
Seriously, capsule rounds are the shizzle. My wife made a character once that was into poisons, used crossbows, etc. It quickly became apparent that the capsule rounds and pistols would have been a better option (statistically speaking anyway, her character was still badass).
Have to agree, capsule rounds RAW are the best way to go. The one thing that bothers me (wow, I feel kinda like Columbo) is that 1 dose of toxin is sufficient for 5 capsule rounds. If that is the case then shouldn't there be a reduction on the toxin's power? Otherwise what is it about capsule rounds that makes each toxin 5 times as effective?
-
Seriously, capsule rounds are the shizzle. My wife made a character once that was into poisons, used crossbows, etc. It quickly became apparent that the capsule rounds and pistols would have been a better option (statistically speaking anyway, her character was still badass).
Have to agree, capsule rounds RAW are the best way to go. The one thing that bothers me (wow, I feel kinda like Columbo) is that 1 dose of toxin is sufficient for 5 capsule rounds. If that is the case then shouldn't there be a reduction on the toxin's power? Otherwise what is it about capsule rounds that makes each toxin 5 times as effective?
Method of getting it into your target's system? Perhaps it's more efficient. Not sure though, that is a good question.
-
Presuming it's a contact toxin, speed of injection, maybe? It all goes in ... I dunno. I've thought about that myself, and didn't like any of the results I came up with either.
-
sometimes it's best not to over think things too far...
-
Seriously, capsule rounds are the shizzle. My wife made a character once that was into poisons, used crossbows, etc. It quickly became apparent that the capsule rounds and pistols would have been a better option (statistically speaking anyway, her character was still badass).
Have to agree, capsule rounds RAW are the best way to go. The one thing that bothers me (wow, I feel kinda like Columbo) is that 1 dose of toxin is sufficient for 5 capsule rounds. If that is the case then shouldn't there be a reduction on the toxin's power? Otherwise what is it about capsule rounds that makes each toxin 5 times as effective?
Not to mention that unlike the Super Squirt, capsule rounds do not require an Exotic Weapon skill to use. Really, with capsule rounds also costing less because of 1 dose going further, I don't see much need to even consider the Super Squirt.
-
Seriously, capsule rounds are the shizzle. My wife made a character once that was into poisons, used crossbows, etc. It quickly became apparent that the capsule rounds and pistols would have been a better option (statistically speaking anyway, her character was still badass).
Have to agree, capsule rounds RAW are the best way to go. The one thing that bothers me (wow, I feel kinda like Columbo) is that 1 dose of toxin is sufficient for 5 capsule rounds. If that is the case then shouldn't there be a reduction on the toxin's power? Otherwise what is it about capsule rounds that makes each toxin 5 times as effective?
Probably because capsule round are a lot smaller than an injection arrow/bolt/dart or however the supersquirt holds its payload. Also keep in mind that the bolt/arrow/darts are used for injection vectors while the supersquirt is used for contact, Bullets are also used for contact vectors. Consider then that the primary method of delivery is the supersquirt which is basically just spraying an area with the stuff, to a bullet that possibly punches through the armor and gives direct contact to skin, that's without someone being fancy with a Down the Gullet shot.
-
Probably because capsule round are a lot smaller than an injection arrow/bolt/dart or however the supersquirt holds its payload. Also keep in mind that the bolt/arrow/darts are used for injection vectors while the supersquirt is used for contact, Bullets are also used for contact vectors. Consider then that the primary method of delivery is the supersquirt which is basically just spraying an area with the stuff, to a bullet that possibly punches through the armor and gives direct contact to skin, that's without someone being fancy with a Down the Gullet shot.
All of this is wrong.
First off, capsule rounds and the SuperSquirt both use DMSO, which is a really badass solvent. It allows damn near anything to be transferred through skin, which in game terms makes anything you mix with DMSO into a contact vector. Second, no one uses bullets to transmit chemicals. To do so would result in the chemical being obliterated by the pressures and heats involved in firing out of the chamber. That's what capsule rounds are for. Third, capsule rounds don't pierce anything - they simply splat against things. Just like a paintball. Fourth, the capsule round isn't attempting to make direct contact with the skin - the chemical inside it is attempting to make contact with the skin. Thus, you'd still need to "do damage" with the capsule round in order to simulate that the chemical got to the skin. But it's not like the capsule is penetrating anything.
-
Possibly, but if you juice someone with a SuperSquirt - I dunno, does it have a 'spray' setting? - you don't get any additional bonus for hitting them with the entire full-on shot. Like I said - thought of all the various arguments, didn't come up with any resolution I liked.
-
Alright... been a while since I read up on them. Concede most of the points... but since the capsules already have fluid in them that probably explains the reason for the spread dosage.
-
Um ... no, the question is why should a capsule round (using 0.2 dose) have the same effect as a full dose (from injection or a SuperSquirt). What is it about capsule rounds that makes their delivery system five times as effective? Or should the dosing be only 20% as effective?
-
Perhaps the fluid contains anti-coagulants and other drugs to expand blood vessels and enhance absorption into the bloodstream? More then likely it's just there to prevent the cost getting out of hand.
-
Realistically it should 1/5th as effective, but this is ShadowRun, so whatever. Also, this makes having either chem protection or chem seal all that much better.
Edit: typo.
-
The cost SHOULD get out of hand. God help you if you have a chemical gland that produces something peculiar or unique; you get to produce 5 shots a day (which are sellable, after all) of your favorite toxin ...
-
I'm not good at this sort of thing... but anyone done cost comparisons between capsules, bolts, arrows and darts with common toxins?
-
Considering that except for capsule rounds (where you can apparently get away with using 1/5 of a dose), the cost of the toxin is going to be the same; it's just a matter of your range and the cost of the firearm round / injection bolt / injection arrow / injector needle. Me, I'm a capsule round person - unless, as it now turns out, you have to hit them from further than 50m out. Then I think I'd go with the standard daikyu and injection arrow.
-
I made the proposal that you either have 20% of the effect, as per RAW or you pay a full dose per bullet.
Since 20% of effect would be meaningless, I think we'll go with the cost of one dose per bullet.
-
I made the proposal that you either have 20% of the effect, as per RAW or you pay a full dose per bullet.
Since 20% of effect would be meaningless, I think we'll go with the cost of one dose per bullet.
You have a point. And it makes sense from a "hit" perspective of automatics. That 6 rnd burst has good use...
-
Hmm, well there's another interesting point.. Capsule rounds can go no further than light pistol ranges...While even the Dart Pistol and Crosbow Pistol are heavy pistol ranges, you get into other delivery types and they'll rapidly expand the range... all of these are single shot delivery methods while Capsule rounds allow firing multiple rounds to try and guarantee a hit.
-
As always, depends on whether or not you're willing to expend that amount of nuyen ...
-
True, bit BF/FA delivery methods and shortest range short of palming slap patches onto someone sounds like a reasonable explanation for he dosage distribution, the capsules are probably a lot smaller anyway.