Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: FST_Gemstar on <03-01-15/1157:15>
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Hi folks,
I've been working on an elf adept who works as a face/infiltrator who can hopefully sometimes help in a short-range/interior gunfight. Problems that I can see come up are low body/strength/edge, spreading out too many 1 point skills, and being short cash for things I may like (armor stacks and mods particularly). My progression plan for this character was to at least boost body to 2, and then start to initiate for Masking/Flex Signature Metamagics and some more PP, and eventually taking an Adept Way (Speaker probably, maybe Beast). I imagine he could do easy con/stealing gigs on his own, but will of course work on a team with matrix, magic, and muscle support on the real runs. Please let me know how you think I can improve this character who likes to talk and sneak through problems, sometimes taking out a weapon if needed to help in a firefight or "silence" a guard.
Name: Tamuz
Meta: Elf
Concept: Face Adept
Priorities:
Meta: C
Attributes: B
Magic: D
Skills: A
Resources: E
Leftover Karma: 0
Phys Stun: 9/10
Initiative: 8 +2d6
Limits: Physical 3, Mental 6, Social 10.
Attributes:
Body - 1
Agility - 6
Reflexes - 4 ( Including Improved Reflexes 1)
Strength - 2 (Bought 1 with Karma)
Charisma - 8
Intuition - 4
Logic - 4
Willpower - 4
Edge - 2 (Bought 1 with Karma)
Magic - 5
Positive Qualities:
First Impression - 11
Too Pretty to Hit - 3
Mentor Spirit (Raven) - 5
Negative Qualities:
Addiction (Mild, Alcholol) - 4
Allergy (Mild, Lactose) - 5
Prejudice (Specific/Outspoken, Abusive/Neglectful Parents) - 5
Astral Beacon - 10
Skill Groups:
Stealth 6
Disguise (10)
Palming (13)
Sneaking (12)
Influence 4
Etiquette (14)
Leadership (14)
Negotiation (14)
Arcana - 1 (5)
Assensing - 5 (9)
Astral Combat - 1 (5)
Computer - 1 (5)
Con - 5, +2 Fast Talk. +2 Mentor Spirit (17/19)
Electronic Warfare - 1 (5)
Escape Artist -1 (5)
Gymnastics -1 (7)
Hardware - 3 (7)
Impersonation - 6 (16)
Intimidation - 1, +2 Mental (11/13)
Locksmith - 3. +2 Maglock (9/11)
Perception - 6 (10
Performance - 1 (11)
Pistols - 6, +2 Semi-Automatics, (12/14)
Adept Powers:
Astral Perception (1pp)
Combat Sense 1 (.5pp)
Improved Reflexes 1 (1.5pp)
Authoritative Tone 2 (1pp)
Kinesics 2 (.5pp)
Linguistics (.25pp)
Nimble Fingers (.25pp)
Traceless Walk (Free, Mentor Spirit)
Voice Control 1 (Free, Mentor Spirit)
Gear (Nuyen 26k, including 10 karma)
Armor:
Vashon Island: Synergist Business Line (Custom Fit, Concealable Holser, Tag Eraser)
Ballistic Mask (Gas Mask)
Weapons:
Ares Predator V (Smartgun, Silencer [put in Vashon Island Suit)
Defiance EX Shocker (Concealable Holster)
Fake Sin 4 (Pistol License 4)
Sequencer 4
Cellular Glove Molder 3
White Noise Generator 2
Bug Scanner 2
Data Tap
5 Datchips
Chisel
Survival Kit
5 Stealth Tags
5 Security Tags
Contacts 3 (Image Link, Vision Mag, Smart Link
Commlink; Renraku Sensei (Program: Encryption)
Subvocal Mic
AR Gloves
Certified Credsticks (silver, gold)
"Cheap Harmonica"
Hardware Kit
Disguise Kit
Lockpick Set
Ammo, pistols, tasers
Restraint, Plasteel
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Wow this, more than anything, shows how Skills A is a trap. Jesus.
Meta C/Magic D gives you 3 special points and Magic 2.
Magic C/Meta D gives you 0 special points, Magic 4 and 1 active skill.
Yeah I guess you come out ahead with this Priority.
BOD 1 is a terrible idea. You want it at 3, minimum. You want WIL to be an odd number too. I suggest dropping it to 3. REA baseline of 3 is bad. You want REA and INT at 5. Is LOG really doing much for you? I seem to recall the use of Hardware/LOG in B&E is extremely limited and not worth an investment of 3 attribute points.
Arcana 1 - buy it with karma in play, useless right now - pointless until you initiate.
Astral Combat 1 - absolute shit, seriously, don't, you'll just kill yourself.
Computer/Electronic Warfare 1 - dice pool of 5 is functionally useless for anything you'd actually need to roll.
Escape Artist 1 - 5 dice is pretty much crap here too.
Take these 4 skill points and pump up your Locksmith. And buy a rating 6 auto-picker.
Anything you buy at 1 you want to buy with karma, NOT with precious skill points.
Influence Group 4 is kind of a waste honestly because Etiquette isn't THAT useful and Leadership is okay. Negotiation pool of 12 isn't quite good enough to be a primary face.
Astral Perception is better in a focus than paid for with PP. Kinesics is just okay, there are better things to buy (like Motion Sense).
Your initiative is pretty bad and there's not a good way to improve it except upping REA and buying another rank of Improved Reflexes.
Gear looks good though you also want something less flashy like a bog-standard armored jacket.
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Well - I think that even with skills A you have to have a very clear focus.
You are all over the place - and while you might say I have many skill points I can be all over the place - this is your A priority.
I'd replace skills with attributes and stay away from logic skills.
The same is true for what you do with your magic - let magic just solve one problem for you.
Either max facing with adept powers - (cool resolve autoritive tone) or max fighting/defense (reflexes - combat senses)
Adapt powers are great when they are focused on a narrow field. So depending on your focus reflexes + combat senses and your defense is great - build the rest with skills and attributes.
Cool resolve - you are a face okay - now make sure you are not too slow and shoot good enough.
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Why intuition and will power at such a high level? With Skills A you can pretty much take everything that has to do with Logic, Charisma and Agility (the key skill linked stats) so I expected one or two of those to be the highest attributes. I wouldn't even bother buying strength.
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Thanks for the feedback!
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I'd probably reduce WIl and Log to 3 so that I could Increase Bod to 3.
I'd probably drop Rea from 3(4) to 2(3) and raise Int from 4 to 5- There are more INT skills than Rea.
Using skill points for specializations in chargen is normally a karma loss for you.
For example Con(Fast talk) 5(+2) to raise to 6(+2) is 12 karma post chargen.
To give Con 6 a specialization post chargen is 7 karma.
That's a 5 karma difference.
So, like other people posted, you should probably get rid of a lot of those skills you put 1 or 2 skill points into and concentrate them into skills that you will have 6 or 5 points into.
If you're gonna be a stealth adept, you might want to consider facial sculpt and melanin control as they can help you when your disguised. The Invisible Way should be considered also.
If you're only going to learn one weapon skill, you might want to consider automatics... it gives you a much wider range of choices than pistols. Though, I've had character that only knew pistols.
As far as initiative...unwounded you have a 1 in 36 of going just once and no chance to go three times.
If you had said you were a primary combatant, i'd agree with Whiskeyjack that you need to improve it.
But since you're primarily a face, this is good enough.
And remember, ain't no license gonna make them thar silencer all legal like.
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I agree with most of what my collegues said (except Computer 1 - but there's a whole discussion on that elsewhere and I know a lot of people don't agree with me. And even then you should buy it with Karma).
Commlinks cannot run programs (well, the cyberprograms listed in the book) at all. Basic encryption is built-in to commlinks (as a Computer action); the cyberprogram of that name is ment for Cyberdecks and RCC's only. Gradivus makes a good point about the license - I'd keep the pistol (with silencer), but get a second, "legal" backup for use in public. Or go automatics as he suggested and change everything around. I'm pretty sure there's also legal guns with built-in silencers around, that's also an option. They'd probably be worse then the Predator, but built-in silencers are as legal as the gun they come in.
I'd buy more ranks in Increased Reflexes soon indeed, but I agree that as a primary face it can wait. Although if you want to be more competent in combat you might want to consider saving Kinesics, Linguistics and Nimble Fingers until later (they're useful tricks, but not core to your build). Either way, your first priorities post-chargen should probably be to initiate and/or get a Qi Focus to round that out. Also a medkit.
Why does Raven get Traceless Walk btw? All other Mentors get 0.5 PP worth of stuff, except the Street Grimoire ones that get 1PP (with a bigger drawback). Raven gets 1.25? (Not really specific to this character though).
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Why intuition and will power at such a high level? With Skills A you can pretty much take everything that has to do with Logic, Charisma and Agility (the key skill linked stats) so I expected one or two of those to be the highest attributes. I wouldn't even bother buying strength.
INT is important for initiative, dodging, Perception, and Assensing. So it's pretty important for everyone on the merits of the first three entires in that list at least.
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You're rolling a ton of dice vs. a Physical Limit of 3 for a lot of your tests. You're going to be wasting a lot of hits, which is always painful to experience on a regular basis. Taking the advice elsewhere in this thread will make it less bad, but even then it'll be something worth addressing.
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I've been working on an elf adept who works as a face/infiltrator who can hopefully sometimes help in a short-range/interior gunfight. Problems that I can see come up are low body/strength/edge, spreading out too many 1 point skills, and being short cash for things I may like (armor stacks and mods particularly). My progression plan for this character was to at least boost body to 2, and then start to initiate for Masking/Flex Signature Metamagics and some more PP, and eventually taking an Adept Way (Speaker probably, maybe Beast). I imagine he could do easy con/stealing gigs on his own, but will of course work on a team with matrix, magic, and muscle support on the real runs. Please let me know how you think I can improve this character who likes to talk and sneak through problems, sometimes taking out a weapon if needed to help in a firefight or "silence" a guard.
My suggestions on how to build this.
Same concept different solution.
A-Attributes-24
B-Elf-6
C-Skills-28/2
D-Magic-2-Adept
E-Cash-$6,000
Attributes:
B-3, A-6, R-5(7), S-2, W-5, L-2, I-5, C-8
Edg-4, Mag-6, Ess-6, Itv-10(12) + 1(3)D6
Skills:
Group-Stealth-2 (Sneak/Palming-8+(Boost Avg 2), Disguise-7)
Automatics-6, Machine Pistols+2 (12/14+Boost/2+TargettingOptions = 15-18ish)
Con-6, Mentor+2, Fast Talk+2 (18/20)
Negotiation-6, Bargaining+2 (16/18)
Perception-6, Visual+2 (11/13)
Bought w/ Karma
Assensing-1 (6)
Etiquette-1 (11)
Impersonation-1 (11)
Locksmith-1 (7+Boost/2)
Unarmed Combat-1 (9+Boost/2+Touch/2)
Power Points
2.5-Improved Reflexes-2
1.0-Astral Perception
1.0-Authoritative Tone-2
0.5-Combat Sense-1
0.5-Motion Sense
0.25-Agility Boost-1
0.25-Linguistics
0.0-Traceless Walk
0.0-Voice Control-1
Karma Spending & Qualities
Negatives:
Code of Honor-15 (No killing Women & Children)
SINner-UCAS-5
Allergy-Mild-Uncommon-5
Positives:
First Impression+11
Mentor Spirit-Raven+5
Too Pretty To Hit+3
10 Karma for STR-2
10 Karma for Cash = $20,000
10 Karma for L1 Skills
1 Karma for Contacts 24+1 = 25 (6/1, 5/2, 4/2, 1/4)
Also, you mentioned a Way but didn't have it now.
For Karma efficiency I'd look into a Way now v/s later w/ Mentor Spirit & move 1st Impression & 2P2H into the later purchases category.
In turn you would need to drop a couple skills for now & that extra contact point
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If you really want first impression its better to do it now.
the consensus is that Ways do not cost double karma after chargen, while first impression would.
so Way now and first Impression later would be 42 karma
First Impression now and Way later would be 31 karma
And my 2cents, 11 karma for a bonus that only lasts once is kind of expensive
You could you Tarislar's concept as a template but instead of the 4 specializations, take etiquette 4...
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Gotta say that I think it's awesome that you chose Lactose Intolerance for your character's Allergy. :)
Consume some cheese and that would definitely penalize the negotiations.
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Consider swapping Astral perception for Magic sense. Since 5th edition Physical Adepts = chopped liver in Astral combat really all you get is Assensing. Magic Sense does most of what Assensing does for 1/2 the cost and no skill points.
Also consider Way of the Beast. Its 15 Karma net, since its a free Mentor spirit. You'd pick up a full power point. 0.75 from Improved Reflexes and 0.25 from Combat Sense.
With both changes you pick up 3 levels of Combat Sense. Or another level of Improved Reflexes and Combat Sense. Whichever floats your boat.
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Also consider Way of the Beast. Its 15 Karma net, since its a free Mentor spirit. You'd pick up a full power point. 0.75 from Improved Reflexes and 0.25 from Combat Sense.
With both changes you pick up 3 levels of Combat Sense. Or another level of Improved Reflexes and Combat Sense. Whichever floats your boat.
Way of the Beast has been hit with errata that doesn't give it the any other power.
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Thanks again everyone for all of you help. Looks like a lot of great options. I think I was pretty hung up on being able to do a lot of things and having kind of a love/hate relationship with magical abilities (using them when needed, but trying to rely on his own skills more, as astral beacon has gotten him into trouble in the past.)
It was my understanding too that Ways don't cost double post chargen. I thought you can't use a way discount on Impoved Reflexes (something about only on oowers things that are .5 or 1 point., but maybe the second level improved reflexes would count?) I didn't want this character to have a SIN, but it would solve my nuyen problem too.
Thanks again!
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There is no Way that gives a discount on Improved Reflexes.
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Also consider Way of the Beast. Its 15 Karma net, since its a free Mentor spirit. You'd pick up a full power point. 0.75 from Improved Reflexes and 0.25 from Combat Sense.
With both changes you pick up 3 levels of Combat Sense. Or another level of Improved Reflexes and Combat Sense. Whichever floats your boat.
Way of the Beast has been hit with errata that doesn't give it the any other power.
Really? Was unaware, thank you. In that case for 15 Karma (net) you'd pick up 0.75 or .5 Power points. One of the other ways may offer greater Power point return but the free mentor spirit is a nice feature.
And the more I think about it, the more convinced I become that Physical Adepts in 5th edition are better off with Magic Sense over Astral Perception. Minimal benefit gained for the extra half a power point and a very real liability of being vulnerable to Astral entities attacks. Do the math on a force 5 spirit hanging out with a held action. Leave Astral space to the spirits and mages.
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Gotta say that I think it's awesome that you chose Lactose Intolerance for your character's Allergy. :)
I have a character that choose Milk, not the same, but similar.
I find some of the allergies to just be really out there.
More fun to pick something that is commonly seen in the world. Like Peanuts or something.
As for Magic v/s Perception.
I don't know, Perception can tell you a lot more than just if something Magical is in the area.
I mean you can do the reverse & use it to see how much Cyber someone has which IMHO can tell you a lot about what you dealing with.
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As for Magic v/s Perception.
I don't know, Perception can tell you a lot more than just if something Magical is in the area.
I mean you can do the reverse & use it to see how much Cyber someone has which IMHO can tell you a lot about what you dealing with.
Astral Perception gives you more info, yes. But it should, it costs double the power points plus a bunch of skill points. Precious skill points.... Especially if you're looking to get the 4 hits you need to spot Bioware on a regular basis.
And Magic Sense uses the the detection Spell table. If four hits on a Detect life can tell you Joe is coming around the corner. Specifically, Joe. Then 4 hits on Magic sense should reveal a lot of info about anything magic in the area. The major drawback to Magic Sense is that it doesn't help directly with "spot the mage". But it does spot foci, reagents and sustained spells so its a fair leg up.
*shrug* YMMV and all that. I've played with a GM who had a very mean free spirit go all three stooges on someone when they decided to take a peek. That was under much friendlier rule set, under 5th edition you could get half your face ripped off pretty quick. If your GM plays spirits as not too bright then no worries! ;)
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Don't forget though that Magic Sense is an opposed test. Paradoxically, that Force 5 spirit will have a decent 10 defense pool against your... okay it doesn't actually state what you roll. Something that's quite likely less then 10.
With a single point of Assensing - assuming that, like most adepts, you have a decent Intuition - you're likely to get at least one hit on assensing, and then you have, well, a hit, and you see the spirit. The only real defense is Masking, which spirits almost never have (and most mages won't either).
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Hello again. I started toying with this character again (probably too much), and will come out of chargen as listed below. I used 30 karma to buy a point of Edge, Strength, and $20k nuyen.
Meta: C, (Elf)
Attributes: A (24)
Magic: D, (Adept)
Skills: B (5/36)
Resources: E (6k)
Attributes:
Body: 3
Agility: 6
Reaction: 5 (7)
Strength: 2
Charisma: 8
Logic: 2
Willpower: 5
Edge: 2
Magic: 5
Positive Qualities (18 Karma):
First Impression
Mentor Spirit (Raven)
Jack of All Trades, Master of None
Negative Qualities (-24 Karma):
Allergy, (Uncommon, MIld) - Lactose
Astral Beacon
Consummate Professional
In Debt I
Prejudiced (Specific, Outspoken): Humanis Members
Adept Powers (5):
Traceless Walk (Mentor Spirit)
Voice Control 1 (Mentor Spirit)
Authoritative Tone 1 - .5pp
Combat Sense 1 - .5pp
Cool Resolve 1 - 1pp
Improved Reflexes 2 - 2.5pp
Linguistics - .25pp
Nimble Fingers - .25pp
Skills:
Automatics (Machine PIstols) - 6 (8)
Con (Fast Talk) - 6 (8)
Locksmith (Maglock) - 6 (8)
Negotiation (Bargaining) - 6 (8)
Perception (Searching) - 6(8)
Impersonation - 1
Stealth Group - 5
Key Gear:
Armor:
Actioneer Business Clothes (w/ Electrochromic Clothing)
Armor Jacket
Weapon:
Ares Crusader II (Machine Pistol)
Remington Suppressor (Machine Pistol)
Survival Knife (Blades)
Hermes Ikon Commlink (Rating 5) w/ subvocal mic and other accessories.
Fake Sin and liscenses (Rating 4)
Contacts (Rating 3) w/ Smartlink, Image Link, and Vision Magnification
Tool Kit (Disguise)
Lockpick Set
Climbing Gear
Rating 6: Bug Scanner, White Noise Generator, Autopicker
Cellular Gove Molder (Rating 4)
Other B&E gear
Ammo
Drugs
Credsticks
Lifestyle for the month: Low
This character has a backstory that I won't get too into here, but functionally, this character is intended to be a primary face, but also a social infiltrator and be proficient with a gun. I tried not to spread this character too thin at generation and hopefully this character is hireable at generation with a lot of room to grow where needed.
Possible future include initiating and taking the Speakers Way for Masking, Flexible Signature and Presence Metamagics and also providing another power point ( perhaps kinesics, enhanced perception, and attribute boost: agility). Character might also bond an Astral Perception Qi Focus. Being able to hide/forge aura/signature may be useful for being sneaky, intentionally drawing astral attention, or increase impersonation (even on the astral). Character will also likely pick up some low rating active (particularly to expand social skills repertoire) and language skills to round out character to help meet team needs. Might also try to increase Edge. Will probably early on pick up an assault rifle for longer range weapon needs.
Please let me know if there are any suggestions to make this character make more useful, more fun, or is missing anything critical! Thanks so much!
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Linguistics is a fun power but Agility Boost is just more useful for you now.
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I would go with a spec in SMGs. They're still kind of concealable and largely street legal, hit harder than MPs and have bigger magazines. The Ares Sigma-III is my go to
This is also a character who will be defined in some ways by their contacts. All faces are. You want a good variety of them in different circles. You want someone plugged into gangs, someone plugged into corps, and a fixer at the least. I also like to have a shark lawyer on my side and a bartender - they can be usefully connected to different scenes and provide good info. As an elf, being plugged in with the Ancients is a no brainer, if not actually being a gang member yourself.
I might also just trade out the Cool Resolve for 2 more levels of Authoritative Tone. This guy could be a great Commanding Voice guy too but you don't have the Leadership for it. Still...8 dice might be plenty against most mooks.
Wait, hold on, you have no Etiquette. Remedy that! Drop that Locksmith specialty and get Etiquette at 2 or free up some karma for it (I know buying low level skills with skill points sucks but you will benefit greatly from this).
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Thanks for the tips, Zelda and Whiskeyjack. Especially on contacts, as the ones I was picking were pretty fluff. They made for some fun, but they were of more limited use, and there are ways to make contacts both fun and useful. I was planning on keeping Cool Resolve so that I can use The Speaker's Way to at least reduce one 1pp adept power to .5. This will free up one of level Authoritative Tone for the future. I have trouble with the idea of roleplaying commanding voice, but having Commanding Voice/Silver Tongue Devil enhancement combo could make some runs a lot smoother. I wonder if a GM would allow Commanding Voice onto the Speaker's Way PP reduction list. I'd consider it then. I'm also considering dropping combat sense, as the character I think is pretty difficult to surprise as is, and there are lots of other ways to get an extra defense die. This would free up some more power points too. This may be too much speculation, but I also considered biowaring the character up a bit later down the road --tailored pheromones, mnemonic enhancers, Muscle Toners, data jack perhaps--, by that point I could probably afford to lose combat sense and linguistics (as I would hope I would have learned a lot of languages by then), so I wouldn't be losing any essential power points and the boosts to social tests, language tests, and combat/agility skills (probably two dice each) seem substantial. All just possibilities until this character gets into a campaign.
I know the character doesn't have Etiquette or Leadership at character generation, but I was thinking that I could buy a few ranks after just a few runs. The default on these tests aren't awful as is (I think), and with Jack of All Trades quality, it only takes 4 Karma to boost them to two ranks. I figure two ranks in a lot of skills post generation will get me pretty far and not take all that much karma to accumulate (Etiquette, more Impersonation, Gymnastics, Freefall, Escape Artist, maybe Leadership, maybe Computer, maybe Assensing later on, etc.).
I will work on some contacts!
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Don't drop Combat Sense. It allows you to even make the surprise test when otherwise you may not be allowed to. That is huge. Extra defense dice are great (I often rock Combat Sense 6 and never regret it) but just being able to make the surprise test is a life saver sometimes.
I might try to fit in Motion Sense though. Seems good for a B&E guy.
Yeah do not think of contacts as purely fluff. That would be a critical mistake. Your contacts are how you do legwork, just like a decker doing data searches and a Mage doing astral scouting. Don't discount it. I currently play a mystic adept face and my contacts have returned actionable intel on a time sensitive job after one phone call or a few minutes of text exchange where the decker's search might take hours. That is a HUGE deal.
Call up an Ancients lieutenant buddy to have him and his boys start a distracting bar fight or tell them about the actions of their rivals that you're running against and you might get a useful screen of gangers covering you. Bartenders are supremely connected in club and drug culture. I have a contact in Tamanous...can't beat that for disposing of bodies. Etc.
Having an aggressive defense attorney puff out his chest at Lone Star is not something to take lightly either. A corporate head hunter might know all about any of a number of extraction targets and their habits. Etc. More than anything else contacts are what make a face, a face. Compare them to a sam's ware, a decker's deck, or a mage's spell list. They're that big of a deal even if they don't initially look like it!