Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Lucean on <03-05-15/0336:03>

Title: Lifting&Carrying
Post by: Lucean on <03-05-15/0336:03>

The rules assume ridiculously low amounts of weight to be lifted.

It's especially obvious when you look at the weights for (and they even used the technical term from sports) clean and jerk with 5kg * STR base and additional 5kg per hit on the STR+BOD test and compare them to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_Olympic_weightlifting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_Olympic_weightlifting).
Even a Troll with 15 STR and 10 BOD on both Kamikaze and Nitro edging his roll for 20 hits would only get to 195kg for Clean & Jerk, lower than a 69kg weighing Chinese in 2013.

But how can those rules changed in a sensible way to bring it closer to comparable amounts?

Within the given restrictions I'd assume Exceptional Attribute for the comparison as well as some "medical help" providing a bonus of 1 to STR for lifting things as well as an additional dicepool bonus of 1 for the lifting test and a maxed BOD. So we have STR 8, BOD 6 and a dicepool of 15, making it 20 with EDG.
Since I think the base attributes for the different athletes wouldn't differ much I think there should be more emphasis on STR for the base weight with the # of hits providing a lesser contribution to the final weight.

Going now with 20kg * STR as base using 5kg per hit would be a bit below current records (220kg for 12 hits), whereas we'd get above the mark with 10kg per hit (280kg for 12 hits).
Our Troll from the beginning would start with 380 kg baseline and additional 100kg/200kg for his roll.
I think I like the variant with 10kg per hit better, as 5kg would have too little effect on a dicepool that has limited options for expansion.

This would require to change the other values around, too.
Going with 40kg * STR as base for lifting weight and 20kg per hit would get the edged human with 560kg IMHO close enough to the record in tire deadlifting of 524kg and below the record in squat with 575kg.
The Troll would have 760kg base and get to 1,160kg - the weight of smaller cars.

For carrying weight I'd like to hear proposals from others, but I think 15kg * STR should be fine to be carried without effort.

Any suggestions, comments?

Title: Re: Lifting&Carrying
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <03-05-15/0709:55>

Taking an unaugmented human that represents a world-class athlete aka the pinnacle of human achievement, use Body 6 and Strength 6 for a total dice pool of 12. Using mathematical average, minimum, and maximum, this yields the following results.

20kg * STR, 5kg/hit
Min: 120 + 5 = 125kg
Avg: 120 + 20 = 140kg
Max: 120 + 60 = 180kg

20kg * STR, 10kg/hit
Min: 120 + 10 = 130kg
Avg: 120 + 40 = 160kg
Max: 120 + 120 = 240kg

40kg * STR, 10kg/hit
Min: 240 + 10 = 250kg
Avg: 240 + 40 = 280kg
Max: 240 + 120 = 360kg

40kg * STR, 20kg/hit
Min: 240 + 20 = 280kg
Avg: 240 + 80 = 320kg
Max: 240 + 240 = 480kg

The current world record is around 260kg in a clean & jerk move. To my mind, then, none of the above really hit this mark as this is supposed to be the absolute maximum an unaugmented human could possibly lift. 20kg * STR with 10kg/hit comes close, but you'd need 12 hits to get there which with a dice pool of 12 is just plain unrealistic. Let's therefore look at some other options.

25kg * STR, 15kg/hit
Min: 150 + 15 = 165kg
Avg: 150 + 60 = 210kg
Max: 150 + 180 = 330kg

On a good roll (8 hits on 12 dice), the above would allow one of the strongest unagmented people in the world clean lift 270kg, just over the current world record. On an exceptional roll (i.e. using Edge, for example, and getting 10+ hits), this would go up to 300+ kg. To my mind, this is a good approximation of real world capabilities.

Let's take this approach and apply it to a human of average strength and a troll of superb strength, as well as the absolute maximum a troll could achieve.

Average Human, Body 3, Strength 3
25kg * STR, 15kg/hit
Min: 75 + 15 = 90kg
Avg: 75 + 30 = 105kg
Max: 75 + 90 = 165kg

Superhuman Troll, Body 10, Strength 10
25kg * STR, 15kg/hit
Min: 250 + 15 = 265kg
Avg: 250 + 90 = 340kg
Max: 250 + 300 = 550kg

Superhuman Troll, augmented and/or magically enhanced, Body 15, Strength 15
25kg * STR, 15kg/hit
Min: 375 + 15 = 390kg
Avg: 375 + 150 = 525kg
Max: 375 + 450 = 825kg

Those are your ranges for what is possible, but the latter categories are always going to be near-unattainable simply because rolling 100% hits is going to be challenging the bigger the dice pool becomes, even with Edge. I personally feel these numbers are realistic enough that I'd be happy to replace them with the book values, which I agree are odd. So to answer your question, I would go for 25kg * STR, plus 15kg per hit.

Title: Re: Lifting&Carrying
Post by: Lucean on <03-05-15/0913:34>

Exceptional Attribute shouldn't be left out of the equation. The issues of doping can also more or less be included, as the means to find them will always be behind those to apply them.
That's why I calculated with STR 8. Edge shouldn't be left out of the equation because it's renewable and you only need a limited amout of trys for a competition.

Title: Re: Lifting&Carrying
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <03-05-15/0950:57>

I wouldn't personally design around the exception, but that's just me. Having Exceptional Attribute by definition makes you the exception rather than the rule; you're stronger than any other (meta)human around.

Edge is accounted for in my calculations with the maximum range. Achieving 12 hits on 12 dice, even with the use of 6 Edge, is unlikely in the best of circumstances. Hence, why I use ranges to see what is minimum, average, and maximum.

My conclusion is just that, mine. That's what I'd use, because in the majority of cases it will reflect real world equivalencies. The Troll with Exceptional Attribute for both STR and BOD and +4 STR and BOD through some means or another and rolling 6 Edge MIGHT be able to lift close to 800kg on a good day with the wind in his back. That's good enough for me.

Title: Re: Lifting&Carrying
Post by: Tarislar on <03-05-15/1613:44>

Anyone on the world class level of body building is IMHO likely a good example of EXCEPTIONAL Attribute & DRUGS (Steroids) so I'd probably say they very much should be included.

Title: Re: Lifting&Carrying
Post by: Shaidar on <03-05-15/1640:18>

As to Carry Weight, I'd go with the US Army studies giving optimal Weight/Endurance at 120# for extended carry For an average US Soldier.

Title: Re: Lifting&Carrying
Post by: Lucean on <03-06-15/0256:23>

What unit of measurement is #? Since it's an US Study I fear it needs reculations.

And Tarislar, yes, those were picked for that reason, to see if the upper limit fits. World Class athletes have to be exceptional by definition.
But I fear aiming for the max makes the lower values also weird. I think I'd have problems to even get to the amounts for STR 2 ...

Damn it. :(
I really liked the table for D&D 3.5. Better scale because off a wider range for the STR-attribute, although the numbers got a bit out of proportion when you aimed for it.

Title: Re: Lifting&Carrying
Post by: Namikaze on <03-06-15/1138:12>

Quote from: Lucean on <03-06-15/0256:23>

What unit of measurement is #?

That's shorthand for a pound.

Title: Re: Lifting&Carrying
Post by: Shaidar on <03-06-15/1230:59>

Quote from: Namikaze on <03-06-15/1138:12>

Quote from: Lucean on <03-06-15/0256:23>

What unit of measurement is #?

That's shorthand for a pound.

It's use prior to Twitter. #history

Title: Re: Lifting&Carrying
Post by: 8-bit on <03-06-15/1245:30>

Quote from: Shaidar on <03-06-15/1230:59>

Quote from: Namikaze on <03-06-15/1138:12>

Quote from: Lucean on <03-06-15/0256:23>

What unit of measurement is #?

That's shorthand for a pound.

It's use prior to Twitter. #history

Also sometimes used to denote "number", as in #1. #math

Title: Re: Lifting&Carrying
Post by: mjack on <03-06-15/1754:19>

The athletic discipline of weightlifting requires a lot of technique. Wether a character has an appropiate active skill or (my favorite) gains additional dice for the weightlifting test from a preceding knowledge skill test. Additionally there is quite some difference in the ergonomics of a car and a barbell. I guess the latter one should allow some bonus dice for being better balanced and providing a better grip. I guess for an unaugmented world-class lifter in SR dice pools of 18+ sounds realistic to me. Nevertheless the game mechanics on p. 152 of the SR5 Core Book are a bit conservative, especially because the game is meant to be quite cinematic.

The formula for Carrying works  for me as field kits range from 20kg - 60kg. Lift and Lift Overhead both could be increased by 5kg. Based on STR 6 and dice pools of 18 calculations would be:

= LIFT ================
(STR x 20kg + 20kg/hit)
-----------------------
Min. 120 +  20 = 140kg
Avg. 120 + 120 = 240kg
Max. 120 + 360 = 480kg

= LIFT OVERHEAD =======
(STR x 10kg + 10kg/hit)
-----------------------
Min.  60 +  10 =  70kg
Avg.  60 +  60 = 120kg
Max.  60 + 180 = 240kg