Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: EltonJ on <03-11-15/1233:09>
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This is a question on Geographical Pole Reversals.
In other words, the Earth turns upside down. Now a little history:
Magnetic pole reversals have had happen, and they can track this by the magnetic signature in igneous rocks. The Earth has flipped it's poles over the course of it's billions of years history (yeah, billions of years, it's all there in the fossil record). The last time we flipped was either during the Younger Dryas, or during the change over from the Age of Taurus to the Age of Aries during the 18th Dynasty of Egypt. The last we have concrete evidence because the Old Kingdom and Middle Kingdom Egyptians used maps of their land where the Nile is flowing south . . .
So, that I have framed my question accurately, lets get right down to it. Face it, the Sixth World is in the Age of Aquarius. So, does anyone want to speculate as to what would happen if the Earth turns upside down? (the actual "Sun in Aquarius" event happens at 2161, I believe.)
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I've watched Naval Navigators updating paper charts with Magnetic Pole Shift Variations to account for the amount of shift since they were printed.
Now I'm fairly certain that the Geographic Poles are conventions (societal agreements on what to name a given direction) and they aren't going to change. I'd wager that if the Magnetic Poles shift enough to swap society will simply rename South/North and vice versa and begin producing magnetic compasses with the new designations.
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The last we have concrete evidence because the Old Kingdom and Middle Kingdom Egyptians used maps of their land where the Nile is flowing south . . .
Sorry, but this is not evidence at all. You mix up "south" with the "lower part" of the map, but that is not the same. The Nile always flew from what was called Nubia through Upper Egypt into Lower Egypt and into the Mediterranean Sea. Or from South to North. Physically anything like a reverse flow from the Nile Delta towards Nubia is impossible.
That maps are not always oriented towards the North however is a fairly common feature. In fact "to orient" originally meant "displaying a map so that the East is ontop", since "oriens" is Latin for East and in late antiquity and the medieval age maps were "oriented" towards the East (that is Jerusalem).
Maps in antiquity, before the Old World became Christianized, could be oriented towards South and North as well, though. Especially Egyptians liked their maps oriented to the South. That might have been purely for practical reasons, given that most of their civilization lived in the North (Lower Egypt) in later periods (note that the 18th dynasty is neither of the Old nor Middle Kingdom era, but of the New Kingdom era from 1549 BCE onwards) and was thus closer to the viewer, with the more remote Upper Egypt actually ontop. A map facing North will have Upper Egypt on the bottom, and Lower Egypt ontop, and will hence convey an unnatural feeling to the viewer.
In any case, geographical poles are purely conventional and even magnetic poles are to a large extent. What you call North and South is matter of convention, the only "natural thing" about the whole concept is, that the Earth revolves around the Sun and while doing so spins around its own axis. While doing so, the nickel-iron core of the planet builds up a gargantuan magnetic field that has two poles each centering around approximately around one of the geographical poles of the planet, i.e. where the axis of Earth imaginarily lies. Since the planet wobbles quite a bit and revolves not in a circle, but a ellipse, rather than a circle, the magnetic poles are not congruent with the geographical poles.
Thus, not only are the concepts of South and North linguistic conventions and arbitrary to a huge degree, Earth actually has two sets of poles; magnetic and geographic. All this did not matter however to the Egyptians as they new nothing about magnetism and as such cared only for the Sun, stars and in their case the Nile to "orient" themselves. To them geographical orientation was to a huge deal a question of "on which side of the Nile" something was, East equaled morning, life and various important civilizations, West equaled evening, death and the great desert. South was only important as a measurement of "where in Egypt" something was, since the river is to a large part oriented on the North-South axis. North and South became more important when it came to (maritime) navigation, and even then the immediate neighbours lay to the East (Asia) and West (Africa)
Switching poles today would thus only "happen" magnetically. Sure, we would have to reorient all our magnetic tools, practically inverting them. But the concepts of North and South would remain the same. As would all maps, navigational software and denominations.
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Pole designation aside, a magnetic-field flip would devastate the planet. And it wouldn't just damage/devaste the electronic technology commonly used through-out our culture. The climate would be definitely changed. Only plants and simple animal life-forms would survive, (though not in a form you would recognize). Familiar with epilepsy? When a flip occurs, it wont just be just your I-pad that fails. You will too. And if your brain survives; it will be crippled permanently. Read up on times when the field's flipped before. Mass extinction of higher animal forms occurred at the times when the flips occurred.
Now I recognize Shadowrun's a Sci-Fi/Fantasy setting. And it's been quoted repeatedly that magic can be advanced enough tech as viewed by primitive enough people. (IOW...the dragons' advance knowledge led to the 'Earthdawn' era underground habitats. {sorry, but descended from dinosaurs? Prefer the alien refugee explanation.}) 8) But Planetary Magnetic Field Flips aren't something to be taken lightly.
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Errr... no...
The last field flip was 41,000 years ago and lasted rather shortly, about 440 years. This was during the last ice-age and with modern humans (homo sapiens sapiens) already fully developed (which occured around 200,000 BC). The last long lasting flip occured around 780,000 years ago. Again, no brain-squishing of animals (including homo erectus, the anestor of the archaic homo sapiens).
Climate changes are also not necessary, though certain radioactive isotopes will be more frequent in the atmosphere, especially in the layer above 100km.
What would be problematic during a full reversal though, would be the geologically temporary, but civilization-wise long-term existence of multiple magnetic poles of various strength. That might (will eventually) really mess up navigationaly instruments like compasses. But you iPad wouldn't be affected beyond that. GPS does technically not need the magnet field. And as you might have noticed, GPS devices attached to you dashboard via magnets work just fine.
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We have moved past the point of a field shift would hurt electronic devices, as so many of our devices are non linear, and a flux field change would have no real effect.
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Pole designation aside, a magnetic-field flip would devastate the planet. And it wouldn't just damage/devaste the electronic technology commonly used through-out our culture. The climate would be definitely changed. Only plants and simple animal life-forms would survive, (though not in a form you would recognize). Familiar with epilepsy? When a flip occurs, it wont just be just your I-pad that fails. You will too. And if your brain survives; it will be crippled permanently. Read up on times when the field's flipped before. Mass extinction of higher animal forms occurred at the times when the flips occurred.
Now I recognize Shadowrun's a Sci-Fi/Fantasy setting. And it's been quoted repeatedly that magic can be advanced enough tech as viewed by primitive enough people. (IOW...the dragons' advance knowledge led to the 'Earthdawn' era underground habitats. {sorry, but descended from dinosaurs? Prefer the alien refugee explanation.}) 8) But Planetary Magnetic Field Flips aren't something to be taken lightly.
I've got some interesting pictures to show you guys. Fortunately, Shadowrun is an alternate reality from ours (It diverged, what, 300 mya?).
Here's Gordon Scallion's map.
(https://i2.wp.com/img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130727115851/speculativeevolution/images/b/b7/World_Map_100_million_years_future.png)
(https://americaninfomaps.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/d1fd8-mapa_northamerica.jpg?w=876&h=523)
Note: There was a guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyH3yjupayA&spfreload=10) that actually time-traveled with his brother during the Philedelphia Experiment (Al Beilek). He ended up in 2135 A.D., I believe. He says that Scallion's maps aren't accurate.
Probably the most plausible map.
(https://i0.wp.com/halfpasthuman.com/flip/Pole-shift-02.jpg)
New World Land Maps (https://americaninfomaps.wordpress.com/2014/07/16/new-world-land-maps-post-global-pole-shift-opinions-and-projections-vary-wildly/)
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What exactly are you trying to say here?
First you show a map by Gordon Scallion, a man who claims every year that the entire world is going to drown. Then you say that this map was debunked by another fantasist who claimed to be a time-traveller.
None of this has any relevance to your original claim that the Earth's geographic poles periodically flipped - which they don't.
Can you clarify what point you are trying to make?
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I actually like the one he forgot to include in his list of maps.
(http://americaninfomaps.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/b05c2-pole2bshift2belenin.jpg?w=784&h=680)
Good time to grab some Alaskan beachfront properties. :P
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Why do I feel like this has gone from being relevant to Shadowrun to being straight-up conspiracy theory mongering? No one time travelled. Ever. The poles aren't going to flip themselves in our lifetimes, and we're not going to turn the earth on its side in the next several millennia. Every single thing that y'all are talking about has been debunked by professionals and scientists.
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I don't know anything about Gordon Stallion or Timetraveling, which is ridiculous (except in RPGs ;) )
According to what I've read or seen in the Net, the Pole reversal is going to happen but not in my Lifetime .
Some scientists/theories say we're overdue, some say it's going to happen in a few Hundred Years. in Geolocical Terms quite soon, in Human Terms nothing to worry about.
and the Process is going to take a few decades ,maybe a Century.
I doubt that this process is going to ...."fry our Brains" but it will leave Earth without a Magnetic Shield (or one with much less power until the"System" resets itself )for quite some time. and Solar Radiation is going to cause massive Mutations. once the Reversal is complete the only difference is that everything labeled North should/will now be South and Vice Versa but thats it.
It happens periodically , it has happened before, it will happen in the Future, but Earth is still full of Life
If there has been a mass Extinction because of ths reversal,well Life "survived" (man made mass Extinction of Species is as severe if not more severe and it happens RIGHT NOW ! )
and thats all I know about it
I know more about our Sun turning into a Giant Red Star and devouring all inner Planets (Yeah ! )
And I know, that I have to watch Carl Sagans Cosmos sometime soon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z2AnfStRSM
(And I know that I want to play Blue Planet. my RPG Books are already starting to get dusty...)
with a cosmic Dance
Medicineman
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I doubt that this process is going to ...."fry our Brains" but it will leave Earth without a Magnetic Shield (or one with much less power until the"System" resets itself )for quite some time. and Solar Radiation is going to cause massive Mutations.
Again with the frightening stories; there are no fossil records that suggest that previous reversals were followed by mass extinctions. Likewise, considering many of the species currently on Earth lived through the last geomagnetic reversal, it would seem they already have some mechanism for coping with shifts in the magnetic field.
If any one is actually interested in the real science involved, I suggest the following is a good, non-biased place to start reading:
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141110-earths-magnetic-field-flips-more (http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141110-earths-magnetic-field-flips-more)
Regardless, since I can't see how this would really affect a game of Shadowrun I'm now out.
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No one time travelled. Ever.
But, but what about John Titor? Craig Bennet Stiles from the Toynbee Convector? Ashley "Ash" Williams from the Evil Dead series? Marty McFly and Doc Brown? Or the Time Traveller from HG Wells' the Time Machine? It's like right there in his name!
Anyhow as Namikaze points out, theories, mythology and unexplained phenomena are great and all but don't believe everything you read or watch on the internets, or off of it for that matter.
As for predicting huge changes to the world, I leave you with a winning prize from the 2011 Ig Nobel Prizes as a word of caution:
MATHEMATICS PRIZE: Dorothy Martin of the USA (who predicted the world would end in 1954), Pat Robertson of the USA (who predicted the world would end in 1982), Elizabeth Clare Prophet of the USA (who predicted the world would end in 1990), Lee Jang Rim of KOREA (who predicted the world would end in 1992), Credonia Mwerinde of UGANDA (who predicted the world would end in 1999), and Harold Camping of the USA (who predicted the world would end on September 6, 1994 and later predicted that the world will end on October 21, 2011), for teaching the world to be careful when making mathematical as sumptions and calculations.
Edit: Really forum? you're goint to censor a part of a word?
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Edit: Really forum? you're goint to censor a part of a word?
Now I want to know what it censored.
Also, yay for the quote. This topic got silly quick.
As for the original topic: the Earth has a LOT of angular momentum. Like, really, a LOT. Anything that so suddenly shifts the planet's rotation would end up pretty bad for us. Luckily, there are no planet-sized projectiles heading our way.
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The censorship is on a specific spelling involving an 'a' and two 's'es immediately conjoined to it. They bought cheap censoring software and its going after words containing the 'dreaded' spelling even if the word doesn't mean it. ::) And of course the joke is on you, the reader since ya' have to put the 'dreaded three letter word' in the 'censored/changed' word's spelling to figure out what the word was and/or meaning! :D
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Ah! Hence the as sumptions.
Okay wow that is bad.
Assume assuming assumptions <- I am so naughty.
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but if You put some Letters in Italic
You can dance your Ass of as long as You like ;)
OK, can we get back to Topic. I like conspirassy Theories
He who dances with the Masses ;)
Medicineman
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Yes, let's get back to the completely sane discussion at hand.
Actually I got interested and did some googles. https://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/pseudosc/flipaxis.htm (https://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/pseudosc/flipaxis.htm) has some neat relevant data on what it takes to change the axis of the earth!:
The amount of energy contained in the earth's rotation is pretty large: 2.1 x 1029 joules. You'd have to supply an appreciable fraction of that to change the earth's rotation in any major way. To put this number in perspective, a megaton is 4 x 1015 joules. You'd have to supply about 5 x 1014 megatons, or about 100 million times the total nuclear arsenal of the Earth. So we can see that the science fiction theme of a nuclear blast affecting the earth's rotation is just plain impossible. The kinetic energy of the earth in its orbit is about 2.7 x 1033 joules or about 10,000 times its rotational energy, so the entire earth's nuclear arsenal could hardly affect the earth in its orbit even if we could somehow deliver the energy effectively.
However, this is apparently also a thing:
In addition to apparent polar wander, however, there is a real polar wander. The crust of the earth can slide over its plastic interior in response to mhoop imbalances. The rotation axis of the Earth stays fixed, but the crust as a whole can move relative to the poles. The term is still a misnomer - it's the crust that moves, not the poles.
For all practical purposes, that would have the same effect as far as we're concerned. So, how easy is it to move the crust around to different places?
... probably still not very.
Edit: superscripts don't copy well.
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owowwo, Relax. :)
The rotation is not gonna change or reverse, thats impossible !
its just the Polarity that is gonna change/reverse. North---> South and South--> North thats all
So, how easy is it to move the crust around to different places?
I assume its impossible (and it's not likely to happen).
The Crust IS moving constantly, yes, but with a mere 1 Millimeter per Year
with a very, very slow dance
Medicineman
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I'm relaxed, it's a funny discussion.
But anyway, that's magnetic pole reversal, which is a thing that happens, yes. The original topic (as the title shows) is geographic pole reversal. Which is not a thing that happens, except when planet-sized objects hit each other. It's not impossible, though; see Venus and Uranus. But yeah, that's... unlikely, to say the least, and the least of our worries if it does happen.
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ahhh, OK,
then I got it mixed up and assumed something else
my posts were about the Magnetic Pole reversal.
with a magnetic Dance
Medicineman
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Hmmm, I wonder if this map qualifies as Geographic pole reversal.
(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/upside_down_map.png)
It's at least pretty funny