Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Senko on <03-14-15/0755:12>
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Mil-spec is too expensive to buy and maintain for all but elite units, security armour is too bulky and heavy to move in for all except bases (corporate or military) so what's the standard armour issued to soldiers deployed on general duties in active battlegrounds?
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Full body armor, I think. Although some books/missions give them armored jackets (which is just idiotic).
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Armor vest, armor jacket, full body armor or even industrious line armor based on unit, climate of theater and military budget. By armor rating an armor jacket may also represent a reinforced extended tactical vest or if you insist on a "jacket" it might as well be an armored parka.
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Armor vest, armor jacket, full body armor or even industrious line armor based on unit, climate of theater and military budget. By armor rating an armor jacket may also represent a reinforced extended tactical vest or if you insist on a "jacket" it might as well be an armored parka.
Oops, didn't think of that.
But armor vest is a little too light for military - unless we are talking about soldiers on a covert op trying to keep a low profile.
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Oops, didn't think of that.
But armor vest is a little too light for military - unless we are talking about soldiers on a covert op trying to keep a low profile.
I could possibly see an Armor Vest (or equivalent, in terms of Armor) in a jungle or desert region, for example. It's lighter and easier to move in. When you're trekking for hours, possibly days, you take what you can get.
I agree that it wouldn't be standard, though.
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Scouts might get armor vests or armor jackets. Light infantry would probably get armor jackets. Medium infantry would likely get full body armor. Heavy infantry starts to get into the Mil Spec stuff, and gets really nasty.
Actually, that's not much different from the police in a lot of ways, except that KE would likely stick to vests and jackets, giving out full body armor for HRT teams.
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Scouts might get armor vests or armor jackets. Light infantry would probably get armor jackets. Medium infantry would likely get full body armor. Heavy infantry starts to get into the Mil Spec stuff, and gets really nasty.
Actually, that's not much different from the police in a lot of ways, except that KE would likely stick to vests and jackets, giving out full body armor for HRT teams.
This ^^
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I'm not sure heavy infantry would get Mil-Spec since it states its too maintenenc intensive and expensive for all but elite units (red samurai or the Tir Tirngaire knights) and it needs to be custom made for the wearer. So what about armoured clothing? Looking at pictures of actual soldiers it looks like they'd just get an armoured vest and helmet (maybe armoured clothing or a jacket in shadowrun) whereas the elite heavy threat response units would get mil-spec gear.
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When you think of heavy infantry, what are you thinking of, Senko? When I think of heavy infantry, I think of the units that go deep behind enemy lines, pushing their way forward like human tanks. They don't actually exist in today's infantry, which focuses more on mobility than durability. I'm talking about something almost anime - guys in armored suits that can take a rocket to the chest.
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I assumed that was what you mean, thing is I don't think mil spec really works for them. To me the phrase heavy infantry brings up the elementals in battle tech who really were just the evolution of regular troops (armoured, jet packs, heavy weapons etc) but deployed in large numbers. Mil-Spec armour on the other hand gives the impression its only for the best of the best. The difference between heavy assault forces and your imperial guard. The former will have good weapons/gear but your not going to spend the funds to have each soldier individually kitted out in armour that wont fit anyone else and requires expensive ongoing maintenance to work. Instead you'll have armour that comes in "small, medium, large, extra large" and can be issued to anyone of that size and requires minimal upkeep for regular troops and moderate upkeep for the special forces.
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I didn't realize about the custom sizing issue of Milspec armor.
I'd agree, its likely not something that is mass issued.
Certain Spec Ops units maybe, but not even all of them, some won't need it based on their mission.
But the Red Samurai & Tir Knights are good examples of "Elite Guards" that would use it.
Maybe the 2070 version of the Secret Service has some units that use it.
Perhaps Ultra-elite teams for Counter Terrorist &/or Hostage Rescue would use it as well.
I'm trying to think of another modern day equivalent that would use the kind of custom/personalized suits that is Heavy Mil-Spec.
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Not many since we don't have a close equivilent to it (bomb disposal troops maybe). To use a semi-recent example look at G.I.Joe rise of cobra the black armoured clothing the GIJOES wear at the start and end of the film is what I see being issued to general troops while the acceleration suits (millions of dollars each, custom fitted) are the mil-spec armour. Red Samurai and Tir Knights are given as examples of units given mil-spec armour.
I thought secret service were more agents than soldiers if you see what I mean?
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Not many since we don't have a close equivilent to it (bomb disposal troops maybe).
Which is why you kind of have to take this with a grain of salt. Mil-spec armor isn't for the average, everyday troops. But the heavy infantry that act as a vanguard on a battlefield? Those guys don't exist in real life. There's no equivalent to them at all. There's no way to determine who in the real world would use that kind of gear, simply because it doesn't exist. As to the whole "Red Samurai" thing - those are the elite military of Renraku. They're exactly the kinds of soldiers I'm referring to as "heavy infantry." And the Tir Ghosts? Those are very literally a heavy military unit. Sure they have light forces as well (who are arguably better than the heavy guys) but they're also exactly who I'm referring to as "heavy infantry."
Maybe I'll change the terms I'm using.
Scouts and other light forces would use armor vests, maybe jackets. The exception to this are highly-trained Chimera, Tir Ghosts, etc. who probably use specialized equipment like mil-spec armor.
Medium infantry are the bulk of any military infantry. These guys use jackets, and rarely anything lighter than this. They might use some light mil-spec gear, but it's unlikely.
Specialized units are the cream of the crop - these are the Delta Force guys, Red Samurai, etc. These guys use mil-spec gear when they're rolling heavy, but will use anything that's appropriate to their environment and opposition.
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Well to be fair when trying to place shadowrun troops I don't look at real world examples I look at my bookshelf of fiction.
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I thought secret service were more agents than soldiers if you see what I mean?
They are, but I'm thinking more of the "SWAT" style guys that respond to their requests when the S*** hits the fan.
Sure the 1st line is business suits. But there are people on "ready-5" status just waiting for when things go bad.
As far as the Tir guys, IIRC the ones in Heavy Armor are the "palace guards" aren't they? Not the spec ops guys but the ones that are literally dressed up as mid-evil knights in all shining silver armor, except its not plate mail, its highly stylized body armor. I remember reading that somewhere.
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I believe that those are called the Silver Knights or Paladins, Tarislar. And you're definitely right. It's highly-stylized, extremely effective heavy armor. Much like the Red Samurai's armor, which is designed to look like feudal Japanese suits of armor made of lacquer.
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Yep, that's them.
I'm trying to think of who in the US now, would be the equivalent of those Tir Silvers/Red Sams that would warrant such armor.
Something either VERY vip guard-ish, or VERY spec-ops-ish.
Its the custom sizing thing that gets me.
Nobles & Corps can throw cost to the wind if they really want to, but as the first Batman (Nolan) movie told us, "Bean counters didn't think a soldier's life was worth 300 grand". (Lucius Fox)
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They are, but I'm thinking more of the "SWAT" style guys that respond to their requests when the S*** hits the fan.
Sure the 1st line is business suits. But there are people on "ready-5" status just waiting for when things go bad.
As far as the Tir guys, IIRC the ones in Heavy Armor are the "palace guards" aren't they? Not the spec ops guys but the ones that are literally dressed up as mid-evil knights in all shining silver armor, except its not plate mail, its highly stylized body armor. I remember reading that somewhere.
Wouldn't SWAT use, y'know, SWAT armor?
As for who would use milspec, I think it would be something like the Ghost Recon's Ghosts. Specifically, the Future Soldier incarnation.
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Never played that. I remember in the empire of man series the youngest heir to the throne wound up stuck on a hostile planet with his bodyguards (only member of his family to escape/survive the coup) and they had major issues with a lot of their armour and weapons because it went to the lowest bidder and the tended to break down when they needed it most.
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Me neither, but I've checked out some let's play on a lark once. They've had some advanced gadgetry to supplement the raw badassery.
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I always based it on a combination of some of the later 4E Missions and the sample grunts in War!(bearing in mind I still focus on 4E, haven't delved much into 5E yet).
Police SWAT units, like Lone Star and Knight Errant, would probably use SWAT armour, since it's designed for mobility and versatility. Light infantry in a military, like scouts, gate guards, etc, would probably use armored vests or jackets, but still possibly with military style mods, maybe a camouflage reuthenium pattern or the like. Again, for scouts and such mobility and stealth is key.
For regular infantry, we're talking about the average soldiers that make up the majority of a military, I felt light military armour was it. It's suited to all types of combat without being too specialized. For spec ops units, depending on their role, possibly medium military armour, or rather even a full body suit and PPP system, all with chameleon coming and thermal dampening and such. Again, this depends on the role, whether they're assault or espionage or what have you.
Heavy military armour is basically power armour, since it can have augmented strength in the suit itself not limited by metahuman maximums. The only time I think anyone would see heavy military armour would be only for the duration of a specific operation, and it would be heavily customized for that task. It's far too cumbersome and expensive to justify anywhere else. So heavy fire support for an assault on an enemy stronghold might have an assault cannon, grenade launcher, and foot anchors or something.
In the Operation Anchorage DLC for Fallout 3, there's a part where they get the new power armour and they form special units that operate as living tanks and artillery for a final assault on a really heavily fortified enemy base. They guys inside have a specific role to fill, and that is breaching the defenses so the regular units can get inside to do their own jobs. But it's pretty fraggin' rare, and I can see heavy milspec armour being used in maybe .5 or 1 % of all operations in a campaign.
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I popped open "10 Mercs" and made up a list of the generic NPCs & their armor.
58th Standard Camo Jackets w/ Securetech PPP
180th Rigger Form Fitting Body Armor - Full Suit
180th Parajump Light Military Armor
180th Security Camo Jackets w/ Securetech PPP
77th Line & Hacker Light Military Armor
77th Veteran Medium Military Armor
Bravo All Light Military Armor
Free MC Fire Team Medium Military Armor
Free MC Scout Sniper Camo Suit w/ Massage Liners
Iron Cavalry Centaur Medium Military Armor
Iron Cavalry Changling Light Military Armor
New Assets Drake Armor Jacket & Form Fitting Body Armor - 1/2 Suit
Task Force Magus Mage Camo suit & Form Fitting Body Armor - Full Suit
Task Force Magus Troll Bodyguard Heavy Military Armor
Team Zero All Camo suit & Form Fitting Body Armor - Full Suit
Thunder Corps Infantry Medium Military Armor
Thunder Corps Rigger Form Fitting Body Armor - Full Suit
Camo Suits/Jackets, Form Fitting Body Armor, & Light Military Armor all seemed to be pretty common depending on role.
Medium Military was more rare but seen multiple times.
The plain ole non-camo Armor Jacket & the massive Heavy Milspec Armor are both only used 1x by rare troop types.
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Heavy military armour is basically power armour, since it can have augmented strength in the suit itself not limited by metahuman maximums.
Wait, 5E has strength enhancement mod? Where did you find it?
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Heavy military armour is basically power armour, since it can have augmented strength in the suit itself not limited by metahuman maximums.
Wait, 5E has strength enhancement mod? Where did you find it?
Not to my knowledge; powered suits were a thing in SR4s Arsenal.
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Pretty sure that Tir Ghosts wouldn't wear hardened mil spec armor.It is restrictive and it just seems a bad choice for Ghosts to wear something that hinders their movements.
Tir Paladins on the other hand...
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Heavy military armour is basically power armour, since it can have augmented strength in the suit itself not limited by metahuman maximums.
Wait, 5E has strength enhancement mod? Where did you find it?
Not to my knowledge; powered suits were a thing in SR4s Arsenal.
I know. And I miss them horribly. They don't even write anymore.
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Heavy military armour is basically power armour, since it can have augmented strength in the suit itself not limited by metahuman maximums.
Wait, 5E has strength enhancement mod? Where did you find it?
Not to my knowledge; powered suits were a thing in SR4s Arsenal.
I know. And I miss them horribly. They don't even write anymore.
Hey, I haven't check out all of the 5E books yet, started my game in 4E and I just read some of the fluff in 5th to stay up to date since I'm running a dynamic/persistent universe game.
But yeah, in 4E's Arsenal, heavy military armour you could add strength upgrades(AKA power armour), customized built-in weaponry, and a shit-ton of mods.
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Looking at that 10 mercs list there I would have to say thats pretty spot on. I personaly would be throwing in some vitals protectors, balistic masks and helmets and a bit of YNT here and there.
The lightest armoured npcs I have wear an armour vest, a FFhalfBodysuit, a vitals protector and shin guards. These are your paid police officers, undercover cops and spooks, the majority of people out there with a salary. Anything less and we`re talking gangers and mall cops.