Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: SmilinIrish on <03-23-15/1402:52>
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I am preparing to play a Mage for the first time. I thought I had a good grasp on magic until I started trying to actually grasp all the numbers.
It seems like a Mage is likely to cast force 4 spells a lot to avoid drain (assuming drain dice pool of 10-12). Is this true?
What are ways to increase your dice pool for drain? Raise Magic/Drain Attribute (expensive). centering Metamagic. Centering focus.
Ally Spirit from the SG. Anything else? I guess a power focus would raise magic and thereby your drain stat.
In regard to using Reagents to change the limit on spells, it seems that spells which depend on net hits would benefit from using reagents to set a higher limit (direct combat spells, Cast at low force to mitigate drain, set higher limit for more net hits for damage). Another good use would be to set force at the level of your sustaining focus, and use reagents to increase limits to get the higher net hits (ie: improve reflexes).
Can you sustain spells (with focused concentration) even while resting to recover from drain?
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Increase your dice pool for drain? I honestly wouldn't use a spirit for aid, especially an Ally Spirit as that's quite expensive in the karma in the first place. The only other thing available that you haven't mentioned yet is a fetish (Street Grimoire, page 212), which reduces the drain of the spell tied to it by 2. The drawback is that you can't cast the spell without the fetish, but on the plus side you can spend karma for the spell twice to learn both versions.
A Power Focus doesn't add to your drain resistance. You resist drain with Willpower + Charisma/Intuition/Logic (based on whatever tradition you choose), so a buff to Magic won't help you there. It doesn't even affect the level when Stun drain becomes Physical, it simply adds its Force to any magic test tied to your Magic Attribute (including Counterspelling, provided it's not for Spell Defense). The only focus that will, which you mentioned (and I don't think officially exists in SR5), is the Centering Focus.
I don't see why you couldn't keep a spell sustained while you spend an hour or more recovering from drain damage, though I suspect that a GM will rule that you lose the spell as soon as you fall asleep.
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Looks like some drugs can also help a bit, though the downsides of some might be a bit extreme.
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The only focus that will, which you mentioned (and I don't think officially exists in SR5), is the Centering Focus.
It exists.
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It is in the listed of metamagic focus
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It seems like a Mage is likely to cast force 4 spells a lot to avoid drain (assuming drain dice pool of 10-12). Is this true?
Since spells have different drain values, you're best off deciding what the highest drain value you're comfortable with is. Three drain is usually low enough to expect to resist it all on average, which means F6 Lightning Bolt, F6 Punch, etc. For buff spells, you'll usually have to accept at least 4 unless you use reagents because you need the higher limit and many of them have DV = F for drain.
The easiest way to increase your drain resistance pool is via Increase Attribute spells. If you have Focused Concentration high enough that works, but I've built some characters who purposefully only have a 4 base in WIL so they can begin with a F4 Sustaining Focus (Health) and use that to sustain a F4 Increase Willpower. With an Elf, you can easily have 8 CHA and 4 WIL base, meaning that'd be 16 dice to resist drain.
Alternatively, be another metatype and add Focus Concentration 6 and rather than 8, have 6 LOG or CHA and buy the appropriate Inc. Attribute spell for that. That can have you with 18 dice and no penalties for sustaining the two spells. And you probably didn't even take any drain damage from casting them, so you're good.
Then, since you either have 10 LOG or 10 CHA, you'd be pretty great at, say... First Aid or Negotiation, whatever you build for.
Or Intuition! Forgot there's Intuition traditions. Oh man the Perception and Assensing dice...
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I just saw this spell for the first time today. Totally planning on checking that out for my Intuition based mage. I see now why you say start with 4, because that is the highest you can have Focused Conc at char gen (or foci).
I think I am going to choose the spell for Intuition, and sacrifice the ability to sustain right out of char gen. I'm planning on taking quickening as my first metamagic. Gotta have that quickened impr reflexes. I don't want to sacrifice long term dice for short term convenience. This isn't a one shot character. It will be fine coming out of character gen with less drain dice, and pick it up as he gets more powerful.
The benefits of increased intuition: boosted street knowledge, boosted perception and assensing, boosted dodge (rea + int). I like this. Obviously I can have the quickened spells dispelled, but hopefully not.
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The only focus that will, which you mentioned (and I don't think officially exists in SR5), is the Centering Focus.
It exists.
It is in the listed of metamagic focus
Yeah, was looking for metamagic foci in the poorly ordered Street Grimoire since it was in the previous edition's Street Magic instead of the core book. Did find it in the SR5 core book instead.
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Drain pool is very much the limiting factor of magic, drain pool is actually fairly hard to mess with, unlike past editions where there were ways to raise it, beyond focusing there isn't really much that can be done about, and to be clear focusing isn't exactly a doing a lot.
As to where folks will cast spells is answer is that it will vary a LOT. If you want to keep doing it without taking much/any drain, I'd aim for not needing more hits on the test then (1/3)*drain pool. This isn't perfect by any means but law of Averages. The question really is more how comfortable your character will be with S drain vs P drain. With work its totally possible to get to the point where you can throw spells with force that exceeds magic rating and have a good chance of eating no drain.
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I'm planning on taking quickening as my first metamagic. Gotta have that quickened impr reflexes.
I'm not sure about the background count raw (because i don't really like it). If you leave an area with bc, do your quickend and sustained spells get the hits back which they lost before?
Even if they do, it's the weak spot of quickening (beside beeing not able to mask the spells).
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I have to admit I was disapointed when I realized centering added initiate grade to the drain roll not magic rating.
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quickening spells comes with it's own downfalls. Just be prepared for them.
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hahaha. Yes. I imagine that I won't be quickening spells unless its do or die, and someone can carry me out.
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While you can plan on improving dice in the long run.
I'd suggest at Chargen that you look at spells that are effective & have lower drain codes.
Lightning Bolt is F-3 so you should have 0 issues tossing it at Force-7 for Drain-4 & resisting that w/ 11 dice most the time.
A Force-2 Health Sustaining Focus at Chargen is still fairly cheap & easy to bind & is a great way to run around w/ a 2+1d boost to Initiative w/o using any reagents or a higher 4+2d boost if you use 4+ reagents when you cast it.
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I have to admit I was disapointed when I realized centering added initiate grade to the drain roll not magic rating.
I REALLY think that it should be Grade*2.
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Yes, its certainly not the first meta that you take. Quickening...
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Quickening is grossly over powered, and it isn't like mages need it, even with the massive nerfs to magic from fourth to fifth, spell casters are extremely powerful.
Centering, however, is fine. It isn't meant to do away with all your worries about drain, instead it is simply meant to help out some. That is because drain is meant to be a limiting factor, being able to brush it aside too easy would be a bad thing.
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I have to admit I was disapointed when I realized centering added initiate grade to the drain roll not magic rating.
I REALLY think that it should be Grade*2.
No. It's not too hard to raise initiation grade. And since there are many metamagics that rely on initiation grade for their effect you essentially multiply their outcome.
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The mages at my table generally have as much edge as possible to be able to cast the more powerful spells. You can also heal drain with first aid, so be with a team mate who can do that and learn the skill yourself. In a hunch, stim patches can als help to delay dealing with the damage. And combat drugs can give pain tolerance :)
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I have to admit I was disapointed when I realized centering added initiate grade to the drain roll not magic rating.
I REALLY think that it should be Grade*2.
No. It's not too hard to raise initiation grade. And since there are many metamagics that rely on initiation grade for their effect you essentially multiply their outcome.
I have to say from what I've seen aside from the increasing karma costs its the first initiation that's the hardest one to get roleplaying wise and I freely admit I've not played enough to judge its effects at higher levels (someone posted they have a 3k karma character which is just . . . ). Still I remain dissapointed that its not a shortcut to a potential +6 drain dice though.
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Raising initiation grade is relatively easy indeed, and probably the first thing you should invest in as a mage (you can probably do the first one after your first run). And while Centering isn't too useful as your first, getting it at 2 or 3 certainly adds a lot. Add a focus and it's not hard to hit 18 drain dice fairly early in your carreer, which helps a lot.
From what I understand, you can't heal drain with first aid. It's pure time only (although medicine helps with that). Stun certainly can't, since first aid only heals physical.
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Drain damage, regardless of whether it is Stun or Physical damage, cannot be healed by any means other than the natural properties of the body—that means no magical healing and no medkits. If you overdo it, you’ll simply need to make time for some rest. page 278 corerules
You can't heal drain with first aid.
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Bummer! I only went by the Healing section starting p. 205 which only mentions that drain can't be healed by magic.
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Bummer! I only went by the Healing section starting p. 205 which only mentions that drain can't be healed by magic.
Medicine is the skill you want.
While under the case of someone with Medicine, the patient adds any hits from the Medicine test to their body test to recover from damage. Note however, it doesn't change the time interval for the tests.
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But stim patches work, right? They don't really "heal" anything...
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But stim patches work, right? They don't really "heal" anything...
Yes, they work. They are a, very, temporary solution though.
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Stim patches are for when you are on your way out, and you need something to keep your mates from carrying you out. As a mage with low agility, and anticipating the need to run out, with only 3 dice to start with, can't handle negatives. But when it wears off, look out.
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Well, a force 6 stim patch lasts for an hour and I see nothing (apart from addiction) that prevents you from using another one after that hour ;) three, maybe four of them in a row might be possible before going unconscious :P
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Well, a force 6 stim patch lasts for an hour and I see nothing (apart from addiction) that prevents you from using another one after that hour ;) three, maybe four of them in a row might be possible before going unconscious :P
You are going to keep racking up damage. By the time it wears off, you've probably sustained more Stun Damage, and maybe even some Physical Damage. Also, Stun Damage overflows into Physical Damage eventually. And you'll fall unconscious.
You use one of them to get yourself out of a pinch. You don't spam them for forever; that's unfeasible and unlikely to be productive in the end.
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No. It's not too hard to raise initiation grade. And since there are many metamagics that rely on initiation grade for their effect you essentially multiply their outcome.
Raising initiation grade is relatively easy indeed, and probably the first thing you should invest in as a mage (you can probably do the first one after your first run). And while Centering isn't too useful as your first, getting it at 2 or 3 certainly adds a lot. Add a focus and it's not hard to hit 18 drain dice fairly early in your carreer, which helps a lot.
Define easy. If you mean you can raise it at the expense of ever increasing your Skills or Attributes or Binding Foci, then sure, I guess its easy.
And how are you getting it after 1 run? Maybe if you've already planned out your Arcana skill & then saved 7 Karma at Chargen & then also get 6+ Karma for your 1st run. That takes some pretty dedicated set up if you ask me.
Investing 30+ Karma to get +2 Dice dice for Drain & Counterspelling is a bit much IMHO.
And all it really promotes is to put off those "by grade" powers till later which then promotes Quickening first.
We all say that Quickening is overpowered and I don't disagree but when the other options have also been gimped badly then it just promotes making the non-gimp choice.
Making that go from 2 dice to 4 dice for the 30 Karma actually makes that choice somewhat debatable.
Or as someone else said, remove Grade from the equation & use a different stat, like adding Magic to Drain dice. That gives you a bigger boost at the start & will also push you to upgrade your base Magic stat as well.
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You don't spam them for forever; that's unfeasible and unlikely to be productive in the end.
Not with that attitude ;) I'm almost tempted to make a psychotic troll mage with a pain editor and a serious stim patch addiction. Sounds fun to me!
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You don't spam them for forever; that's unfeasible and unlikely to be productive in the end.
Not with that attitude ;) I'm almost tempted to make a psychotic troll mage with a pain editor and a serious stim patch addiction. Sounds fun to me!
The big Problem with Stim patches is the (rating +1) UNRESISTED stun damage you take when they wear off. Slap too many on in a short period of time and you could liquefy your organs fast! (3 rating 6 stim patches in an hour = 21 UNRESISTED boxes of damage at the end of that hour!)
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It removes its rating in damage. Then at the end of the hour, you get the damage back +1.
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So you think that investing about 13 karma to directly gain +6 drain dice without further investments is in any way balanced?
Tone down the hyperbole, please. As initiation does in no way prevent you from "ever increasing skills or attributes etc."
Centering gets you +1 drain easier than increasing a drain attribute, but it's also a long term investment that can grow by itself.
What is wrong with planning the development of a character? It doesn't all end at chargen. In fact, because of the limits of character generation it is good advice to think about further investments early. In a thread with archetypical characters for SR4 Umaro gave clear advice for what to aim first during gameplay. It certainly doesn't hurt.
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Raising initiation grade is relatively easy indeed, and probably the first thing you should invest in as a mage (you can probably do the first one after your first run). And while Centering isn't too useful as your first, getting it at 2 or 3 certainly adds a lot. Add a focus and it's not hard to hit 18 drain dice fairly early in your carreer, which helps a lot.
Define easy. If you mean you can raise it at the expense of ever increasing your Skills or Attributes or Binding Foci, then sure, I guess its easy.
And how are you getting it after 1 run? Maybe if you've already planned out your Arcana skill & then saved 7 Karma at Chargen & then also get 6+ Karma for your 1st run. That takes some pretty dedicated set up if you ask me.
Investing 30+ Karma to get +2 Dice dice for Drain & Counterspelling is a bit much IMHO.
And all it really promotes is to put off those "by grade" powers till later which then promotes Quickening first.
We all say that Quickening is overpowered and I don't disagree but when the other options have also been gimped badly then it just promotes making the non-gimp choice.
Making that go from 2 dice to 4 dice for the 30 Karma actually makes that choice somewhat debatable.
Or as someone else said, remove Grade from the equation & use a different stat, like adding Magic to Drain dice. That gives you a bigger boost at the start & will also push you to upgrade your base Magic stat as well.
Getting initiation grades is a tradeoff, yes, but there's a reason people tend to do it - it's worth it. And it's not like it cuts you off from other methods of advancement, it just happens to be one that gives a lot of bang for your buck (so do foci though).
31 karma - that's including a rank of Arcana, otherwise I don't see how you're getting 30+ - gives you +2 to drain and counterspell, yes (if you go that route). Is that worth it? Getting counterspell up 2 ranks will cost you 30 karma by itself otherwise. Granted, Shielding doesn't give you bonus dice on dispelling active spells, but counterspelling pool is the main benefit anyway. Drain Pool is a very important stat, and any other way you might have to raise it up will set you back much, much more then 30 karma (granted, also giving secondary benefits). The 31 karma for 2 initiations gives both, plus the general benefits of initiation.
And that's if you stop at 2. Initiation is the gift that keeps on giving - if you initiate a third time, you not only get an entirely new metamagic, but also a free +1 on your drain pool and counterspelling pool. It also opens up Metamagic Foci.
It's expensive, but everything that's worth it is. And centering has it's own drawbacks (it takes a free action for one - so you can't declare counterspelling at the same time). Arguably, getting Shielding of Centering first is not an optimal choice and you're better off with a flat one first. But that's not because it's not a powerful choice by itself - it's because the flat-rate ones (or the ones with a high baseline, like Masking) are arguably too powerful at grade 1.
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Define easy. If you mean you can raise it at the expense of ever increasing your Skills or Attributes or Binding Foci, then sure, I guess its easy.
And how are you getting it after 1 run? Maybe if you've already planned out your Arcana skill & then saved 7 Karma at Chargen & then also get 6+ Karma for your 1st run. That takes some pretty dedicated set up if you ask me.
I can not tell you how many times I have seen this at conventions, I swear I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of mages that have increased their spellcasting skill by a point before they initiate. (Personally, my mage earned over 100 karma before my first initiation, over two hundred now and finally thinking about my second) And honestly, initiating to grade 1 takes less karma than raising a skill from 6 to 7, probably takes less time too.
I can't really blame them though, the amount of karma you get to keep at character creation is perfect for your typical 6 karma run; and far too often these days, there is no beginners series of modules being run at the conventions which forces people to optimize their characters to keep up with the more experienced characters.
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Well, to be fair, initiation can bring important benefits to a character and even may be required for some concepts. So because initiation is not allowed during chargen you obviously try to get it as fast as possible afterwards.
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So you think that investing about 13 karma to directly gain +6 drain dice without further investments is in any way balanced?
Tone down the hyperbole, please. As initiation does in no way prevent you from "ever increasing skills or attributes etc."
Centering gets you +1 drain easier than increasing a drain attribute, but it's also a long term investment that can grow by itself.
What is wrong with planning the development of a character? It doesn't all end at chargen. In fact, because of the limits of character generation it is good advice to think about further investments early. In a thread with archetypical characters for SR4 Umaro gave clear advice for what to aim first during gameplay. It certainly doesn't hurt.
Never said it was balanced just that it was dissapointing not to be able to do it and the flip side is that increasing your magic rating to 7, 8, more is going to be more expensive than initiating a second/third time..
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Stim Patches are good, until you get addicted (c.f. "Why Johnny can't blink"). They're not listed in the chart on p. 414, but an Addiction Rating of 3 seems appropriate, and a Threshold of 1 (or 2, depending on how hard the GM wants to put their foot down). It's a much stronger dose than Longhaul, with a shorter duration effect, after all.
Some enterprising streetdoc might start adding Longhaul to his/her own brand of stim patches, too... because "if you can peel 'em and stick 'em, you haven't had too much, yet", to say nothing of those who might tamper with "legit" slap-patches.
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Can't sleep or I'll take slap 2450 unresisted stun, can't sleep or I'll take SLAP 2451 unresisted stun.
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^^ And not long later Character falls over from lack of sleep and dies (either from lack of sleep or stun damage, you pick).
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I prefer option 3 they go mad and turn into a Jason Vorhee's/Michael Myers serial killer from the lack of sleep. ;D
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BetaCAV, on p. 451 the section about stim patches says: "Frequent use of stimulant patches may require Addiction Tests. Treat it as Addiction Rating 2, Addiction Threshold 1."
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I prefer option 3 they go mad and turn into a Jason Vorhee's/Michael Myers serial killer from the lack of sleep. ;D
I think Edward Norton of Fight Club would be much more interesting in the way of issues from a lack of sleep.
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Can't sleep or I'll take slap 2450 unresisted stun, can't sleep or I'll take SLAP 2451 unresisted stun.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0479884/
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imho masking and centering are must haves for caster. And theire are so much good meta magic. The only thing my caster is doing is initiating. Who needs 1 or 2 dices more on spellcasting, im fine with what i got (6 + spezialisation + myb totem). But the possibility to mask your self is very important. In most cases, a metamagic gives new possibilitys, thats so much more important then get magic 7, or some spellcasting dices.