Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: pariah3j on <03-23-15/1619:51>
-
One of my magic players brought up the idea of having a free spirit as a contact today. He said he saw it as an example in the book from one of the pre-mades I believe. While I thought it was a pretty interesting idea, I was curious how a spirit contact would work ? Has anyone else had this in their game, how did you handle it ?
-
Much the same as it would for any other contact, though it might necessitate said magician traveling astrally to meet it rather than simply making a comm call.
-
Agreed - would definitely need to be an astrally. But the question that I suddenly had was, how would you get ahold of a spirit ? Is there a way to summon spirits without binding them ? Or would this more grey area and just come up with an idea between myself and the player ?
-
Well, you can just summon a spirit unbound, but I don't know if it's possible for a magician to try and call the same spirit each time. Also of note is that, if it's a free spirit, I don't know it'd count as "your tradition" or necessarily even a specific type.
The one ritual that allows you to summon any spirit would make sense to be able to summon the same one repeatedly, but that's way more complex and doesn't take the roll for seeing if the contact is available into play. It could perhaps replace it though...
I think having a spirit pact would be a bit more logical than having one as a contact-- Unless the spirit is one that is regularly manifested and heavily involved/interested in metahumanity. The question of how the player made a good enough "friend" of a free spirit... There's a lot of "How?" questions.
-
Yeah, magic is my weakest point of understanding in the SR universe so alot of hows and whys for me. But the idea was it was a free spirit of some sort (the casters tradition is chaos so maybe a chaos spirit ?), that has a particular stomping grounds - ie Redmon Barrens. He could use it for various information and going-on's in the area, or possibly help in locating a person/magical item in the district. So he would still have to locate/summon the spirit. My though was maybe rolling the connection rating would decide if the spirit had the information/location(or willing to share it) of whatever the character was trying to track down, since summoning the spirit would almost be a given. Thoughts ?
-
You can't summon a free spirit (specific metamagic's aside). I'd assume a free spirit taken as a contact would have a place that it chilled at more often than not, and would be contacted there. (I've thought about giving pcs a free spirit a contact and as a method of doing karma to nuyen exchange, a free spirit entrepreneur as it were.)
-
Free Spirits are like any other contact... except that they are a spirit :)
Free Spirits can not be summoned nor bound except through a metamagic quest to the astral planes (see street grimoire).
Generally, when a player has asked this of me in the past, a little probing on my part found out that the player thought he would be able to basically get a extra spirit for powers. (Like quickened spells, or spirit services, etc). I had to point out that a free spirit contact would just be like any other contact, and would expect to be paid just like any other contact would.... It lead to some heated disagreements. So i encourage you to ask some probing questions first before you make a judgement call.
In the end, that player now has a free spirit bartender contact :P
Not exactly what he wanted, but still useful.
-
Free Spirits are like any other contact... except that they are a spirit :)
Free Spirits can not be summoned nor bound except through a metamagic quest to the astral planes (see street grimoire).
Generally, when a player has asked this of me in the past, a little probing on my part found out that the player thought he would be able to basically get a extra spirit for powers. (Like quickened spells, or spirit services, etc). I had to point out that a free spirit contact would just be like any other contact, and would expect to be paid just like any other contact would.... It lead to some heated disagreements. So i encourage you to ask some probing questions first before you make a judgement call.
We've already discussed it to some degree - I don't see this as him trying to gain another/free spirit. The idea as I understood it was it would be similar to a street corner contact or something of that nature that he would use for gathering information. "Hey have you heard/seen where the Halloweeners are hanging out these days ?" "I'm looking for a missing little girl, have you heard anything ?" - It would be like you said, another contact but in spirit form.
So the contact works like normal, I roll his connection rating to see if the spirit is 'available' which would mean he's at or around their normal meeting spot. I may be wrong but I'm guessing a spirit doesn't need money, so it would want favors or would barter. What might be some good requests from a spirit ? Find me [insert reagent] ?
-
I second what Reaver just said.
I'd personally do some "hand waving" and say that the PC needs to go astral to search for the spirit-contact (aka "call them") and follow the connection rating rules for contacts on whether they are available when called. Or if the PC isn't able to go astral, then the PC and spirit have a system set up like go to a specific location and light a candle or something. But still use the connection rating rules.
Clearly define the roll/"occupation" of the spirit-contact. Is it just playing metahuman for a while and, like Reaver's example, is a bartender (or a fixer, johnson, taxi driver, etc.)? Or is it an astral information broker keeping tabs on what spirits are doing what where, or something else.
And the key to remember is "FREE" spirit. It's not there to offer services. It will want payment and compensation just like any other contact (though it may have strange ideas as to what that is, e.g. "if I'm going to tell you who is murdering people in the park, first you must give all the children at the day care on 5th and Merced lunch and presents."). But if the player has it at high loyalty, it will bend over backwards to help just like any other contact with high loyalty.
-
Free Spirits are like any other contact... except that they are a spirit :)
Free Spirits can not be summoned nor bound except through a metamagic quest to the astral planes (see street grimoire).
Generally, when a player has asked this of me in the past, a little probing on my part found out that the player thought he would be able to basically get a extra spirit for powers. (Like quickened spells, or spirit services, etc). I had to point out that a free spirit contact would just be like any other contact, and would expect to be paid just like any other contact would.... It lead to some heated disagreements. So i encourage you to ask some probing questions first before you make a judgement call.
We've already discussed it to some degree - I don't see this as him trying to gain another/free spirit. The idea as I understood it was it would be similar to a street corner contact or something of that nature that he would use for gathering information. "Hey have you heard/seen where the Halloweeners are hanging out these days ?" "I'm looking for a missing little girl, have you heard anything ?" - It would be like you said, another contact but in spirit form.
So the contact works like normal, I roll his connection rating to see if the spirit is 'available' which would mean he's at or around their normal meeting spot. I may be wrong but I'm guessing a spirit doesn't need money, so it would want favors or would barter. What might be some good requests from a spirit ? Find me [insert reagent] ?
Well, Free spirits are funny that way. Unlike other spirits, Free Spirits choose to stay on or near the material plane, and when they do, they usually start to assume a "normal" life. (or, at least, try to have a normal life for a Free Spirit) Buttercup for example is a free Spirit that sits on the board of directors of a MegaCorp! Other free spirits in Fluff have been hobos, or Talisleggers, or shop keepers.
Generally, Free Spirits "fixate" on some aspect of humanity and try to emulate that in their lives on the material plane to some degree. A free Spirit that fixates on physical love for example might be an escort, or a Pimp. It might run a brothel, or be trolling the clubs for some fast and easy sex. A Spirit that Fixates on wealth might play the stock market, or become a thief, or even just open up a shop :P
From what you say about the player, you have the right idea. The only thing that really changes is that the contact is also a Spirit, it still has a Personality and it's own desires and ambitions. So play it like any other contact.... Except that it can travel the astral planes to get anywhere it wants in the speed of an eye.
-
So free spirits can/do take corpreal form ? I totally missed that fact... I'm rereading the magic section in detail, but haven't made it to the spirit stuff yet.
-
So free spirits can/do take corpreal form ? I totally missed that fact... I'm rereading the magic section in detail, but haven't made it to the spirit stuff yet.
Well, all spirits (ok, MOST spirits) can Materialize, which is giving them a semi-solid body. (They can still be identified as spirits as the Materialization leaves them "whispy" for lack of a better description.
But, Free Spirits can get the ability of "Real Form Materialization" (or something like that) that allows them to materialize a solid, non spirit like form. (they look and act as real as anything else in the physical plane).
Buttercup stayed hidden as a Free Spirit for years, until someone pissed her off during a board meeting, and she literally floated over the table while berating the individual. (and Thus revealing her Spirit true form to the entire board of directors)
-
Cool - Thanks ! Learn something new every day :D - that opens up the possibilities and suddenly makes a free spirit a much more likely contact for a magically inclined character - sounds like it doesn't add much more then flavor then at that point.
-
Cool - Thanks ! Learn something new every day :D - that opens up the possibilities and suddenly makes a free spirit a much more likely contact for a magically inclined character - sounds like it doesn't add much more then flavor then at that point.
Which is kinda the point. Basically instead of being "Hank the orc bartender" its "Sam the free spirit bartender".
-
It adds more than flavor. Spirits, despite their ability to manifest on our plane, are not metahuman. Sam the free spirit bartender will never be able to enteract with AR, he'll always be dual natured (on our plane), he will be effectively immortal, he won't have metahuman needs or desires, etc. Sam, the free spirit bartender may very well have stood behind the bar 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365.25 days a year for the past 50 years for reasons known only to it.
-
Heh. Wasn't a contact, but an underground astral rock band I created as background for a meet for my players had a free spirit of man doing the singing. That way I could have classic rock music playing while I ran the campaign. Not that I really need the excuse...
-
It adds more than flavor. Spirits, despite their ability to manifest on our plane, are not metahuman. Sam the free spirit bartender will never be able to enteract with AR, he'll always be dual natured (on our plane), he will be effectively immortal, he won't have metahuman needs or desires, etc. Sam, the free spirit bartender may very well have stood behind the bar 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365.25 days a year for the past 50 years for reasons known only to it.
Which matters to everything except how they function as a contact.
-
Every kind of spirit has some way of becoming corporeal - whether that's through direct Materialization, Possessing a vessel (living, dead, or inanimate), or by Inhabiting an individual or creature (thus exterminating its own life force).
In regards to a 'free spirit contact', I would nod and say, 'Interesting idea' - and simply let him build his stable of contacts. He should not know which contact, if any, is a free spirit, simply that certain contact(s) are especially good at getting certain information. (Which, as things go, certain people SHOULD be better at figuring out.) Maybe the talismonger who knows a lot about the spirit realms is a free spirit. Maybe the bartender in the Barrens who knows a curious amount about corporate intruge is a free spirit. Maybe the Halloweener ganger is a free spirit - who knows? Letting people know that he's a free spirit is IMO a level 5-6 loyalty thing - because once they know, it can result in them working on blackmailing the thing.
As a matter of handling a Free Spirit's true name - and its most desired form of payment, i.e. karma - see my thoughts on the matter. (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/rules-and-such/free-spirits-karma-gained-and-spirit-pacts/msg320008/#msg320008)
-
It adds more than flavor. Spirits, despite their ability to manifest on our plane, are not metahuman. Sam the free spirit bartender will never be able to enteract with AR, he'll always be dual natured (on our plane), he will be effectively immortal, he won't have metahuman needs or desires, etc. Sam, the free spirit bartender may very well have stood behind the bar 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365.25 days a year for the past 50 years for reasons known only to it.
Which matters to everything except how they function as a contact.
Not being able to take or make calls doesn't change how they function as a contact? Seeing people's auras but not their faces doesn't change anything? Having no understanding of time and being incapable of reading a clock doesn't change how they function?
-
That's ... a very interesting, non-standard view of spirits. It would definitely make a contact interesting, though I should point out that spirits can see faces, understand time, and can read a wind-up clock just fine. The 'no calls' thing throws an interesting wrench into it, but if you make them explain themselves as a moderate Luddite ...
-
It adds more than flavor. Spirits, despite their ability to manifest on our plane, are not metahuman. Sam the free spirit bartender will never be able to enteract with AR, he'll always be dual natured (on our plane), he will be effectively immortal, he won't have metahuman needs or desires, etc. Sam, the free spirit bartender may very well have stood behind the bar 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365.25 days a year for the past 50 years for reasons known only to it.
Which matters to everything except how they function as a contact.
Not being able to take or make calls doesn't change how they function as a contact? Seeing people's auras but not their faces doesn't change anything? Having no understanding of time and being incapable of reading a clock doesn't change how they function?
Not to mention that the thing WHAT the spirit is doing 24/7/365 behind the bar counter propably has everything to do with what the spirit might want in return of the services it renders to its trusted contacts.
Knowing that you can also desing runs the spirit might want the players to accomplish, taken the spirits overall agenda.
-
That's ... a very interesting, non-standard view of spirits. It would definitely make a contact interesting, though I should point out that spirits can see faces, understand time, and can read a wind-up clock just fine. The 'no calls' thing throws an interesting wrench into it, but if you make them explain themselves as a moderate Luddite ...
With what does a spirit of air / fire / whatever see faces? I was under the impression that spirits perceived the world entirely through astral vision, though I suppose that's not necessarily the case. As to understanding time, how can a being that is immortal and may be upwards of 4,000 years old understand time as someone who will most likely die before their fiftieth birthday? And a wind up clock? Sure, I guess if you can find one, and someone knows how to use it.
None of that is to say a free spirit doesn't work as a contact, I certainly believe it does, but it will know things, pick up on things, and miss things, that others wouldn't. Its not just a meta human with the ability to go astral on command.
-
It adds more than flavor. Spirits, despite their ability to manifest on our plane, are not metahuman. Sam the free spirit bartender will never be able to enteract with AR, he'll always be dual natured (on our plane), he will be effectively immortal, he won't have metahuman needs or desires, etc. Sam, the free spirit bartender may very well have stood behind the bar 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365.25 days a year for the past 50 years for reasons known only to it.
Well, Buttercup has successfully been a Free Spirit that ran a Mega Corp from the Board of Directors for the last 40 years. And there have been other Free Spirits that have been in the fluff in various jobs in the SR universe. If you can get your hands on it, the 2e Magic book has a great write up on Free Spirits and how they integrate into humanity. (or, at least try to)
-
It adds more than flavor. Spirits, despite their ability to manifest on our plane, are not metahuman. Sam the free spirit bartender will never be able to enteract with AR, he'll always be dual natured (on our plane), he will be effectively immortal, he won't have metahuman needs or desires, etc. Sam, the free spirit bartender may very well have stood behind the bar 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365.25 days a year for the past 50 years for reasons known only to it.
Well, Buttercup has successfully been a Free Spirit that ran a Mega Corp from the Board of Directors for the last 40 years. And there have been other Free Spirits that have been in the fluff in various jobs in the SR universe. If you can get your hands on it, the 2e Magic book has a great write up on Free Spirits and how they integrate into humanity. (or, at least try to)
Buttercup is quite exceptional, you can't judge all free spirits by her, the same way you can't judge all dragons by Lofwyr. But I'll check it out, do you have a title on it? (No big deal if you don't, shouldn't be difficult to find.)
-
Lofwyr is a significant example of a dragon, even of a great dragon, but he's by no means exceptionally different. If a spirit wants to stick around, by that very decision it has - wants - some sort of association with humanity. Being a spirit doesn't automatically make every single one of them utterly inhuman, or else we wouldn't have animus/anima, players, and all the other 'I like to interact with humans' types. We wouldn't have a spirit spearheading one of the top megacorporations in the world. Making them otherwise may emphasize their difference from humanity, but it also would completely alienate them from humanity, and essentially eliminate the idea of a free spirit contact in the first place - so while they aren't all Buttercup, they aren't all Xkq'd'wrks from Z'na'd'po'k; your implication is that they are, and is thus at least - more - unlikely, since Shadowrun has portrayed many if not most spirits as being innately interactive with humanity, even to the point of them existing because of humanity - e.g. spirits of man.
As for the 'what do they see with' and the like, please - you're seriously asking about the biology of something which does not have an innate physical form in the first place? C'mon. They see with whatever they want to see with - but the default assumption is that any creature in Shadowrun generally sees in the standard ROYGBIV wavelengths. Anything else requires a power, such as being dual natured, thermographic vision, and what have you.
-
Why wouldn't a Materialized spirit be able to take a call? If a materialized spirit has a solid, physical body and can interact with it's environment like a metahuman would, I don't see why it wouldn't be able to interact with a commlink, especially if it's a free spirit that has seen the rise of technology and chosen to attempt to learn it.
From the rules:
If a spirit wants to affect anything on the physical plane, it has to materialize fist (p. 314). It gets physical attributes based on its type (Spirits, p. 303) and appears as a solid, physical version of its astral form—it’s relatively solid even if it doesn’t look solid, like a spirit whirlwind or a water elemental. The spirit is dual-natured while it’s materialized, which means it exists simultaneously on the physical and astral plane, meaning it can see objects in both places—and be targeted by both mages on the physical plane and astral entities, such as astrally projecting mages. When materialized, the spirit is able to perceive the physical world much as other material beings do. A spirit’s physical form is metahuman-sized or smaller and very obviously ethereal (there is no mistaking a spirit for something worldly). Its physical body is not subject to gravity—though most spirits stay close to the ground because that’s where all the action is—but it can be knocked around by other forces which makes staying grounded handy at times).
Not to mention, one of the tasks an unbound spirit can perform is a physical task.
Physical task: A spirit can materialize to perform actions on the physical plane for you.
-
That's ... a very interesting, non-standard view of spirits. It would definitely make a contact interesting, though I should point out that spirits can see faces, understand time, and can read a wind-up clock just fine. The 'no calls' thing throws an interesting wrench into it, but if you make them explain themselves as a moderate Luddite ...
Well the no calls thing was more because I didn't realize they could materialize and even take on the form of man, etc. I thought they had to be summoned/bound to do that. So knowing they can materialize and even hold secret identities changes some of how I imagined I would handle it. So yeah getting ahold of the spirit just became alot easier, but why the character knows its a free spirit just became a bigger question.
-
Are we reading from the same books? From 301, from the rule book:
When materialized, the spirit uses astral perception (its only perception) to perceive the physical world
Astral perception is not capable of being used to interact with AR thus the very vast majority of technological devices are out. It sees auras, not faces. Etc.
ETA: The first sentence isn't me being factious, I'm curious if you're drawing from a source I'm unaware of, perhaps from an older edition. . .
-
There is several spots in the rules that make mention of the limitations of Astral space. (Such as not being able to read a computer screen , or view AR material... or even read word for word from an open book.)
On Spirits its a little less clear. Yes, they beings from the astral plane, and yes they are dual natured. But, it never states just how the vision of a spirit that is materialized works. We have that little quote from page 301, but it is not overly clear. Especially since listed under the spirits it is just "Perception" and not "astral Perception". Of course, with the history of 5e CRB editing (not trying to dig up a dead issue) it's unclear if this is an error in editing on either spot.
However, that doesn't stop a spirit from being able to do physical mundane tasks (After all, a mage can choose to just astral perceive all the time. They incur a -2 dice pool penalty, but they can do it... hence why "Blind" is only a 5 karma disadvantage for awakened.) But it does add some interesting limitations for the player and GM to work out.
It could be that the Free Spirit contact can not be reached by Commlink, and you must go to his "place of business" to talk to him. Or you might have to take an astral trip to get to him, or any other contact means that does not use a digital interface.
-
I'm guessing a free spirit would need to use voice commands ? I doubt it can have cyberware(aka datajack) and I don't see Trodes working either.
However Pg 222
Augmented reality isn’t just visual information, either. You can hear audio AROs if you have earbuds or a cyberear. AROs can be tactile if you have a haptic device like AR gloves
edit: Reaver's response got posted before mine.
I take it as the spirit sees the astral plane, but I've always imagined that as almost an overlay of the physical world. So things without a astral signature the spirit may have trouble interacting with - words, text, AR - but not impossible depending on how it interacted with them. Just my 0.02
-
Are we reading from the same books? From 301, from the rule book:
When materialized, the spirit uses astral perception (its only perception) to perceive the physical world
Welcome to 5E, where the book contradicts itself:
When materialized, the spirit is able to perceive the physical world much as other material beings do.
Also, consider that many spirits have powers such as Enhanced Sense: [Thermo/Low-Light/Smell/Hearing]. While you could argue that they utterly lack such a sense unless they have the power, the power itself is an Enhanced sense, meaning that it enhances a sense already existing (vision in the case of Thermo or Low-Light).
What I have seen generally used in play is that spirits perceive just like any dual-natured creature when Materialized/Possessing/Inhabiting (even if Possessing/Inhabiting an inanimate object without any mundane sensory mechanism).
In SG, they specifically state that possession spirits cannot interact with AR, though I think what they meant is that they cannot use DNI - light emitting displays and voice/touch/gesture input should be well within their purview. But its up to your GM whether they choose to stick with RAW or the most likely RAI.
-
I'm guessing a free spirit would need to use voice commands ? I doubt it can have cyberware(aka datajack) and I don't see Trodes working either.
However Pg 222
Augmented reality isn’t just visual information, either. You can hear audio AROs if you have earbuds or a cyberear. AROs can be tactile if you have a haptic device like AR gloves
Yea, but it gets more murky then that. A spirit can appear as just about anything. From a 6year old school girl to a shiny new toy fire truck, to a column of flame.... How do you put a pair of gloves on a toy fire truck??
Now, granted that a free Spirit would more likely be humanoid then not, there is the added difficulty of... Vision. Vision for a spirit is not related to an optic nerve or even light waves. So... just cause the gloves MAYH work.. they still can't see the input or the output to actually operate the matrix. Implants do not work as they have no nervious system to attach the implant to, nor are their bodies (no matter how real they look) made from flesh, blood or bone (they are actually made from echtoplasim (sp?) (see magic books, 2e to 4e))
-
Welcome to 5E, where the book contradicts itself:
And that is why one should read with the intent to understand rather than the intent to find information that supports their point. Bleh. I'm starting to see why 5E isn't universally loved and lauded.
So the long and short of it is that we have no idea exactly what spirits are capable of? Hey, at least it matches the fluff!
(Thinking back, there are examples of spirits using regular sight in novels, so there's that. However, I don't recall them interacting with AR/VR at any point, though there is certainly more that I haven't read than that I have.)
-
Welcome to 5E, where the book contradicts itself:
And that is why one should read with the intent to understand rather than the intent to find information that supports their point. Bleh. I'm starting to see why 5E isn't universally loved and lauded.
There are issues with it that is for sure. But the newer books are getting much better in their editing.
Lets be honest, even in highly technical, government written manuals and codes, there are still errors. (do NOT get me started on the CEC, the AEC, the CMA, and the AMA! All these are legal documents put out by 2 different governments, and they contain a laundry list of errors from spelling, to grammar to even miss labeled code chapters!) so we will never see a "perfect" book, but they are improving, which is all we can ask.
-
Minor correction: This appears to be a difference between the first and second printing. In the first printing, it is as ShadowcatX stated, and it was changed in the second printing to what I quoted. So, now RAW matches what was the most likely interpretation of RAI (considering the spirit blocks included regular old Perception as a skill in contradiction to the verbiage on p 301). However it might have worked in old editions, it appears that spirits perceive light and sound and smell, and presumably other senses, similarly to metahumans while materialized.
In multiple places, it states that they cannot use DNI (whether implanted or trodes), so that point is pretty clear. There is only the one place (under Possession in Street Grimoire, pg 197) that states that "Possession does not allow the spirit to operate AR or cybernetic interfaces," which I assume is meant to mean via DNI since AR can be used via trid projectors and AR gloves (or voice command) or via touch screen (electronic paper). I'd even posit that if the possessed form was metahuman enough to wear them, that glasses or goggles would allow viewing AROs. Likewise for Materialized spirits.
-
In multiple places, it states that they cannot use DNI (whether implanted or trodes), so that point is pretty clear. There is only the one place (under Possession in Street Grimoire, pg 197) that states that "Possession does not allow the spirit to operate AR or cybernetic interfaces," which I assume is meant to mean via DNI since AR can be used via trid projectors and AR gloves (or voice command) or via touch screen (electronic paper). I'd even posit that if the possessed form was metahuman enough to wear them, that glasses or goggles would allow viewing AROs. Likewise for Materialized spirits.
I think what this is trying to say is that while the vessel may be able to use the AR devices, the Spirit can not understand, nor make sense of anything digital. Granted it's not overly clear why, but I suspect that is the aim of that sentence.
I imagine it is a limiter they put in place on Spirits to prevent abuse of the rules of/and some traditions. Or it could be there to re-enforce the fact that Magic and Tech do not play nice with each other.
-
Plus a direct neural interface could be tricky without neurons.
-
Some free spirits do have uses for money. They give it to meta-humans to get them to do things they want done. They also like karma.
-
Don't try to pigeon hole spirits. That will get you dead. What a Spirit wants, you can never be sure of.
Heck, i had a spirit that DEMANDED cupcakes for any help it was to offer. Don't know why he wanted cupcakes (he can't eat them) but that is what he demanded.... (ok, so maybe i have a.... novel... GM)
-
Don't be so sure that the spirit couldn't eat them. Besides, they might be angel food cake cupcakes. Or devil's food cake. And its personality changed depending on the type of cupcakes ...
-
Don't be so sure that the spirit couldn't eat them. Besides, they might be angel food cake cupcakes. Or devil's food cake. And its personality changed depending on the type of cupcakes ...
They were chocolate. With sprinkles.
I tried giving him/it vanilla ones.... he threw them back at me :(
Have i mentioned i hate dealing with free spirits?