Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: GromHellscream on <05-19-15/1058:03>
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I have heard from many people on these boards that there is no sense in playing a character with the pistols skill, because you need to have at least a machine pistol to be effective in combat against mooks above rating 3 or 4. I want to know if people agree with this or not. Would the Ares Viper Slivergun or Savalette Guardian be more viable given their burst fire option?
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Reducing defense dice is a very potent ability and Automatics is, in many ways, the most versatile ranged combat skill out there. That said, it's hard to put six slugs into someone and do it quietly, so having other options can be useful.
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-9 to someone's dodge dice pool is unfathomably helpful. especially if you have a small dice pool to begin with. Recoil Comp is relatively cheap to get and can make all the difference in the world. Even a well built "Dodge Monkey" is going to have a lot of trouble dodging when they are out 4-9 dice.
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I know that shadowrun is very different from today, but could someone give me a guideline for general legality of carrying firearms in say Seattle in 2075? I feel that the laws controlling them should be a balancing point. Granted each GM will have their own view.
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If you can find a copy of 1st edition Sprawl Sites, there is a comprehensive list of weapon legalities and offences.
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If you look at the Availability of the weapon, it gives you an idea of the legality of the weapon.
If there is just a " - ", then the item in question is legal to own.
If there is an " R " then the item is "restricted" and needs a permit for.
If there is an " F", then the item is Forbidden. And No, you can not get a permit for it.
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If there is an " F", then the item is Forbidden. And No, you can not get a permit for it.
Which is why you want to have/buy extra certified credsticks, and keep them on hand.
You still can't take your Panther Assault Cannon for a walk downtown, but you might walk away with your maglock passkey and a warning, if your character plays it right.
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Or, its just as likely to get you shot first, followed by a "Police, Freeze!".
After all. It IS an anti-tank weapon :P
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I so love it when a sam with no social skills has a fake SIN that ties the scanner's roll.
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That said using a MP good luck actually dealing damage to many targets as the lack of AP will mean they'll just bounce right off someone dressed in even an Armor Jacket.
Honestly when it comes to handguns there's no 'best' option.
Holdouts: Ridiculously easy to conceal (especially the Streetline Special) and fit perfectly into that 'better than nothing' category.
Tasers: Almost if not as easy to conceal. Sure they only do Stun damage but the electrical AP and side effects make them another great backup option.
Light Pistols: A great option for covert ops, slip a suppressor on one of these and they'll have a hard time knowing who to shoot back at (especially the Ares LightFire 75)
Heavy Pistols: Bang for buck in a package you've got a hope of concealing. The Ares Predator V and Ruger Super Warhawk are a staple "slot off!" gun of choice, having the damage and AP to actually get through moderate armor.
Machine Pistols: Spray and pray in a package that with some training you might even be able to hide. Sure they've got no AP so useless against anything stouter than an Armorerd Vest, but the ability to go from looking like you're unarmed to laying down Suppressing Fire has its own technical advantages.
Another thing people forget is ranges, Machine Pistols use Light Pistol ranges. I would contend that a pistoleer bio-adept could be quite deadly in most situations, especially if they're Ambidextrous and focus on dice pools to land shots with both handguns. That said, even Ruger Super Warhawks firing APDS rounds are going to start to struggle against anything much heavier than an armored jacket.
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I know this has been using 5E rules, and while I currently GM 4E and I'm not trying to derail the discussion, I feel like I should add my 2¥. NOTE; I'm going to use 4E rules since that's what I'm familiar with, but I know the general principle of what I'm saying should still apply. If it's totally off the mark though, feel free to correct me or point out that it's not strictly relevant to 5E.
In general in my games regular street level Gangers and nooks would wear an armour vest or jacket at most, with only corporate or private security/police wearing heavier gear regularly. Likewise, they likely only carry light street weapons, handguns and shotguns and maybe the occasional smg. This will be relevant later.
Assuming a Runner is decent with a pistol, it has a Smartlink, and the enemy is moderately tough with an armour vest, you're probably looking at 8-12 dice to hit vs 3-5 to react and anywhere from 8-15 to soak the damage. So even with a Predator and it's -1 a and 5p damage base, they stand to soak a decent portion, or turn the damage to stun because of their armour rating. Again, 4E, convert to 5E as needed.
But here's the thing. A Runner using explosive rounds, which are pretty easy to acquire from a reliable arms dealer, or modifying the pistol for 3 round bursts, is going to increase that damage output decently. Hell, just carry a Predator with regular ammo abd the apprproate faje license, but if you can get them hide a clip of ADPS rounds in your shirt/jacket/crotch povket/etc. For special occasions. You've now turned your regular, everypne-has-one pistol into an armour-shredding hand cannon.
Likewise, if you know the enemy is wearing a bulletproof vest, pouring shot after shot into his torso is pretty damn ineffective, and the mark of an amateur. Treat armored thugs like zombies; aim for the head. Doesn't really matter how high-tech the armour is if they aren't wearing a helmet, and honestly, even modern day police with ballistic tac-vests don't wear helmets unless they're part of SWAT or specifically dealing with something that warrants a heavily armed response.
I'm not sure about 5E, but in 4E the rules to target an unarmoured portion were a -armour value do to the attacker. So a vest or jacket would be -6 or -8. But assuming the guy specializes in pistols, he could have an augmented 6 or 7 agility, 5 or 6 skill, Smartlink for +2, and he could even use the one simple action to aim abd then shoot. So with 13 to 15 dice, -8, you're still looking at 5 to 8 dice vs their reaction. Chances are you'll hit, and a shot to the face will make anyone have a bad day, even Trolly McBrickshithouse. Especially with specialized ammo.
Again, I'm aware 5E has limits to prevent the 4E exploding dice pool issue, but I'm sure similar situations and possibilities apply.
The long-winded point is this. Pistols aren't always as good for sheer damage as assault rifles or the like, but in the hands of someone who knows how to use them effectively, they can still be damn useful. And a Shadowrunner walking down the street with only a pistol will be much less noticed than carrying a big ass murdergun. And that clip of highly-illegal and highly-effective ADPS rounds for "special occasioms"? Easy to hide that pretty much anywhere.
There's a reason even modern military carry sidearms with multiple clips along with their main weapons. For long ranges or heavily armored targets, you'll have a hard time if it. But in short, carefully aimed and targeted shots, or in close ranges, or both, they can be extremely effective.
Again, if specifics of 5E rules and limits and such directly contradict or prevent what I'm trying to say, please point it out. But I think the theory still stands.
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It boils down to: "The right tool, for the right job"
Pistols are good when you need to be able to conceal the weapon and the opposition is lightly armored.
SMGs are good when you need medium range, medium firepower and are not as concerned about concealing your weapon.
ARs are good when you just need firepower and don't care who sees it....
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As Reaver says.
Also, it depends on just how much of your character is focused on shooting things. For a mage, face, hacker, or rigger, having a pistol makes for a good backup weapon for when they actually get into combat. For a Street Sammy, I'd go with automatics, definitely. It all depends on your role. If you're only going to drop a couple ranks and a specialization into whichever firearm you pick, go with pistols, because they're usually easier to get and often legal to own. And they're very concealable, making them a good fallback for when your normal means of attack isn't working. I have a Combat Mage who primarily uses magic and blades to attack, but has the Pistols skill as well, for those times when he can't risk the Drain, or is in a high background count area.
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Magnaric
Your points do hold up, but only to a certain extent.
1. Both ranged and melee defense in SR5 is Reaction + Intuition, and while skills do go all the way to 12 the cap for starting skills is still 6. This means that most novice runners will have had their ranged attack potential somewhat diminished, as the defender may easily have doubled his defensive pool while the attackers offensive pool may not have increased at all.
2. Armor ratings have significantly increased in SR5; an Armor Vest is AV 9 and an Armor Jacket is AV 12 in SR5, which means that most gangers will have defensive dice pools in the 12+ range, with orks and trolls potentially hitting 20+. That being said, Base DV of weapons have also increased significantly, with a Predator V now having a base DV of 8P, -1 AP.
3. Shooting an unarmored part of a target is an Optional Rule in SR5 (introduced in Run & Gun as RG5, where modified AV applies as a negative dice pool modifier to the attacker). As outlined in the previous points, however, the attackers dice pool has likely not increased significantly while Armor Values have gone up, meaning what used to be a challenging shot (-5 to -8) has become an almost impossible shot (-9 to -12 or more). AP capabilities makes a big difference if this rule is used, but it is optional.
4. Burst Fire under core rules do not have an option to increase DV like they did in 4th Edition (narrow bursts); this ability was reintroduced in Run & Gun, with a 3-round burst increasing DV by 1, and a 6-round burst increasing DV by 2. These are significantly lower than the increases DV of +2 and +5 as per the 4th Edition, and as far as I know there is no Narrow Full Burst equivalent in SR5 that in SR4 increased damage by +9 DV (+16 for the Avenger Minigun and the like :) ).
To summarize; I agree with your assessment that pistols are still a viable choice, but they are not, in my opinion, quite as potentially powerful as they were in SR4. Their main advantage to my mind is that they can exceedingly concealable, something even a machine pistol will struggle with. I am personally of the opinion that this will be more or less useful depending on the table in question.
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And its the table that will really matter.
Some GMs are of the opinion that every combat the runners go up against should have a minimum dice throw of 10+, sporting SMGs and security armor with 2 IP.
Other GMs think of street gangers as pond scum, and outfit them in paper clothes and cardboard weapons.
A little talk with the GM about what his views on combat and threat levels are can give you an idea what to expect, and then build to.
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Well my character is a face, so he is at most a secondary combatant. Unfortunately the GM for the game has a reputation for trying to actively kill players. I want to stay true to the character I have put together, but I also want my face to live. So Ares Viper Sliver gun or the Savalette Guardian seem to be the guns of choice for me.
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And Magnaric, aside from the issue that defending has become a bit easier while also increasing the penalty for failure, I think the deliberate use of special ammo could produce its own problems.
Explosive ammo is noisier and forbidden.
APDS is still cop-killer-ammo and while easier to get in SR5 than Ex-Ex (it's only 12F in SR5 compared to 16F from SR4), as soon as investigations start they will be taken seriously just because of the ammo.
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Well my character is a face, so he is at most a secondary combatant. Unfortunately the GM for the game has a reputation for trying to actively kill players. I want to stay true to the character I have put together, but I also want my face to live. So Ares Viper Sliver gun or the Savalette Guardian seem to be the guns of choice for me.
Well, if its between those two, then there is no choice at all.
Go for the Savalette, The burst option, the ability to load different ammo, and the AP make it the better choice over the Silver Gun and it's "flachette only" special ammo.
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Agreed Savalette FTW.
It's what my face uses.
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Keep in mind you can use a Machine Pistol in SA mode using the Pistol skill. The Remington Suppressor is one less DV than a Savalette Guardian, but comes with an integral suppressor (meaning it's not a Forbidden item) and it has a slightly larger clip (15 vs 12, respectively). Worth considering, if nothing else.
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@Herr Brackhaus: Okay, good to know about those changes. I knew 5E had increased both damage values and armour values (looking through the 5E Core PDF and Gun Heaven 3 shows that much), and I knew about the caps in 5E, which I actually do like. Just didn't realize the jump in the difference between starting hit caps and armour values was as wide as that. Same with trying to go for the one-shot-one-headshot build, seems like that's a lot harder to achieve in 5E. Not entirely sure how I feel about that yet, I'll probably have to play a few games in 5E to get a feel for it before I decide. But glad to know the changes either way, so thanks.
@Lucean: You're completely right about the special ammo creating the possibility for further issues. If a Runner carries ADPS cop-killer rounds, they need to make damn sure they don't use them anywhere they're seen or on camera (or take steps to delete said footage), or use them in a gun and with an outfot/gear that they promptly bury in a chest under a tree stump when not on a job. The point I tried to make is that there are ways to make pistols efficient, deadly, and viable as a main weapon, but it requires getting pretty specialized, abd potentially covering your ass better. But yeah, valid argument about the ammo.
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If the Runners have to dump the gubs every tine they use them to svoid ballistics, then pistols are an economical plan A with something heavier as a backup.
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From a tactile stand point, yes burst and full auto are important, armor piercing is next to nothing for most pistols/tasers have -5 built into them, you could use stick and shock, course if they wearing Non-conductivity armor it almost cancels it out, called shots have varying effects now in 5e for -4 penalty making them lose init score, lose dice to dodging *considers stick n shock with shake up -10 init score, nasty or say the HTR is coming down the path of where the only exit is and you need them to not block you go full auto suppress and lay down covering fire so your team can escape out the side door, cant see pistols doing that.
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you could use stick and shock, course if they wearing Non-conductivity armor it almost cancels it out
Stick'n-Shock versus Nonconductivity is a losing game by default, because you reduce your base DV by 2 to get that -5 AP. Each additional armor the target gets just make it even easier to soak all damage and then the electrical side effects won't trigger.
Gel rounds are therefore a better means to reliably deal Stun damage while maintaining take-out-potential.
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Gel rounds also have the benefit of being considerably cheaper compared to Stick-n-Shock.
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If you have some time between shooting and being shot at, you might want to try capsule rounds instead. Pepper punch makes for the cheapest firearm ammo possible, and spraying an area with suppressing fire should put a few doses nearby for contact / inhalation purposes. Light pistol ranges only, unfortunately.
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Thanks guys. I have a Savalette guardian for the character, but I think the Ares Viper Slivergun is still a great pistol. I have flechette and APDS ammo for the Guardian. For my Ares light fire 75 I have gel and APDS. I like the explosive rounds, but they are loud and illegal two things that are not my Face's bag.
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So I've seen some posts saying that a Viper Slivergun isn't worth it because of the +5AP line, is there ever a tipping point where your shooting pool compensates for the extra soak dice?
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I think against non-corp mooks it can be quite effective. Granted it is forbidden but 9P +4 AP is not all that bad, you just need to give it some help. Gas vent 3, personalized grip and a smartgun system and there you go. Technically the flichette is already in your favor. You are getting a 2 point boost in damage and the 5 extra armor they have to roll for and odds say that they fall just short of canceling your extra damage. Then there is the fact you have a supressor on it too so you can spray and still not have everyone know you are shooting the place up. To top all that off it has a clip of 30. So you should have no need to reload in combat ever. As for your shooting pool evening things out, yes, but you need to make sure that you can up the accuracy of the gun enough to take advantage of it.
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Remember, they only get the extra armor if they already have it. And if you convert nuyen to dollars and use that as a guideline for 'who can afford what' ... a LOT of people are not actually going to be armored, including bunches of gangers.
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So I've seen some posts saying that a Viper Slivergun isn't worth it because of the +5AP line, is there ever a tipping point where your shooting pool compensates for the extra soak dice?
The problem with the Sliver Gun is that the Salvalette Guardian is one ammo change away from being a more effective Sliver Gun with a smaller magazine. The Sliver Gun has an Acc of 4, and 9P/+4, while a SG with Flechette has an Acc of 5(7) and 10P/+4 with Flechette ammo. Since the clip size only comes into play after two long bursts and does not actually keep you from shooting on the third pass, it's not that big a deal. Clip size rarely matters for guns that cannot suppress.
Flechette can be worth it if you want to stun highly armored enemies. Mathematically, the +5 armor will lead to about 2 hits, which offsets the DV +2, but also increases the armor to make it much more likely for damage to be stun. When facing Mr Cyberlimb with loads of armor but low willpower, flechette can be more effective than gel ammo because it keeps your damage expectation roughly equal rather than lowering it like Stick and Shock and Gel Rounds do.
Regarding the original question: Most things were covered but I'd like to add one thing: The true power of Full Auto rests in the ability of overlapping fields of fire that can effectively remove dodge from the damage equation. Three runners with Assault Rifles, one laying Suppressive Fire and two firing with full auto can reduce the vast majority of dodge pools to zero and virtually no cost to the runners provided they can take the recoil. (Which is really easy to build for.)
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If you are only going to pick ONE weapon you should probably consider automatics skill (aka medium sized weapon skill) as it include machine pistols, sub machine guns and assault rifles. The benefit of automatics is that it is very versatile.
Pistols have the benefit of being small and easy to conceal (smaller than machine pistols). They are however quite limited. A horse rule we use is to allow the use of pistol skill (or automatics) on machine pistols (not only in semi automatic mode) and also sub machine guns (but only as long as you use them with one hand and don't take advantage of a folding stock). Basically all firearms you hold with one hand.
Longarms have the benefit of great range and you also get access to shotguns. Still a lot more narrow than automatics. At our table we also use longarm skill (or automatics) for assault rifles and even sub machine guns (but only when you use them with two hands and braced against your shoulder, so no blind fire around a corner). Basically all firearms you hold with two hands.
Note that weapons marked F are Forbidden.
You can't even get a licence for them.
Players should be discouraged to walk around with them.
You only bring them out on an assault.
Same with Restricted weapons if they lack the proper paperwork.
As for weapon modes.
The benefit of SA-mode is that if you have a weapon skill of 5+ and multiple targets within medium range of your weapon then you can spend a complex and free action to attack up to three targets in one attack action (spilt pool). Without shooting friendly targets standing in between. This is a very strong option for a skilled shooter when his targets are surprised, unaware or can't see him. It is also a strong option when fighting mooks that don't have access to huge defence pools.
The benefit of Full Auto is that you can massively reduce the defence pool of a single target that have a huge defence pool. Very strong option for a shooter that is not skilled enough to hit a high defence target. FA can also be used to suppress a frontal cone area with multiple hostiles, reducing their dice pools in the process. Creating area denial. Strong option if mixed together with grenades.
Burst Fire mode is a mix of the two. It can be used against different targets similar to SA (but only two and not three targets) and it reduce defence pool of the target similar to FA (but only with 2 or 5 dice and not 5 or 9 dice).
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i'm sure its been said already but how important burst fire and full auto are really depends on how frequent combat is on your table and what your character role is within your team.
If you're the street sam looking after a party of non-combat mages or TMs and combat is pretty frequent; FA/BF is going to be pretty damn critical.
If you're a decker in a combat capable group where fighting doesn't happen often, you're fine without building for it.
Pistols is perfectly fine for anyone to have in-game; they're very common (almost standard if you live in the shittier bits of town) and you can use the very concealable hold-outs or totally legal tasers for when you need to be discreet or head up-town. Many pistols are semi-auto capable, which means you can do a semi auto burst to knock -2 off their dodge dice which is nice.
If you're worried about range, you can always go smartgun + improved rangefinder or stick a scope on it and use "take aim" to help.
Automatics is great for a regular combatant, but the machine pistol sub-class is not as concealable as a standard pistol so you'll need some palming skill to avoid detection in places where they're going to be looking.
SMGs are just about concealable if you're a big guy, wearing suitable clothing (lined jacket for example), in the dark, and have a little skill in palming, they bring a whole bucketload of combat utility but if people are going to be checking for weapons, you'll need to be inventive about how you get them through the checkpoint.
Forget about AR's as an everyday weapon. If you need them, the shit has hit the fan big time and you need to think about bailing out pretty soon.
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Rating 1-3 mooks and lieutenants will usually have a 3-5 body wearing as little as nothing up to at least an armored jacket. Rating 4 mooks and lieutenants will normally have a minimum 4 body and wear as little as an armored vest and up to as high as an armored jacket with helmet/ballistic mask. You really don't need anything less than a pistol for these guys, unless it is an Ork or Troll.
Rating 5 and up is normally reserved for HTR and Spec Ops. Anything less than an AR is useless against FBA and 10+ dodge dice.
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I like to use all kinds of weapons just to spice up the game and my characters. It is true that certain weapons are 'better' than others but most weapons have a niche and even if it isn't a strong one it can still be fun to explore it. Using Automatics every time because you think they're the strongest is not a good approach. A lot of people here don't like shotguns but I use them from time to time and I find it fun. In the end it doesn't matter what weapons you're using because the game is not about winning and losing, it's about creating a good story.
To touch more on pistols, I think they are a lot of fun and have the advantage of being usable in almost any situation. If you need a discreet weapon to bring for a social scene or sneak into a club, a pistol is your best friend. It may not be the best weapon for a huge fire fight but it does allow you to spend your Karma on other things that weapon skills. Ultimately, if you're really good with pistols you should be able to hold your own in most situations.
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Not to mention if you've got the skill level and Abidexterity to back it up, a duel wielding Ares Predator Vs, or even Ruger Super Warhawks can lead to a lot of pain.