Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Metal Screamer on <05-28-15/1719:11>
-
I have an issue with the way the AOE illusions work, and may differ from one to the other.
SR5, page 290:
Physical Illusions: Physical illusion spells create actual images or alter physical properties, such as light or sound.
For me, it seems to indicate that a camera not in the area of a Trid Phantasm would be affected:
Trid Phantasm Anyone who might pierce the illusion must successfully resist the spell.
There is nothing about targets of the spell. The target is the area, not the people inside. Now, the generic description of Area effects say that the targets inside the area are affacted. Plus it must be in the LOS. The indirect combat spells don't follow this rule, though, and affect the people outside of the LOS of the spellcaster. What makes an area, physical, illusion different?
The description of Silence indicates clearly that people outside of the area are potentially affected:
Silence
...Anyone attempting to hear a sound from within or across the silenced area must successfully resist the spell
So if i cast a silence in a corridor with guards in the rooms on both side (that I can't see), they are not affected? It would be pretty useless then. So I guess it has been written to make the spell useful. Now, why would a spellcrafter design Trid Phantasm differently? If the caster makes the illusion of a car, and people 10 meters entering the area just start being affected, what is the use of a real-looking, multisense illusion?
Is it to make the spell weaker, and convince people to cast Fireballs instead (easier-drain, more efficient)?
Thanks for any advice.
-
My understanding is . . .
1) Yes a camera pointed at the illusion would be affected.
2a) You create the illusion of a fountain in area X and anyone looking at area X can attempt to resist the spell as per the normal rules. If they succeed no fountain, if they fail they see it (and presumably they can choose to fail as it'd be pretty bad to hire a mage to create entertaining illusions at a party and have the guests going "I don't see anything, do you see anything?" "Nope nothing there."). That second part confused me as it seems to make illusions largely useless so I just ignore it (Bad experiences in another game where half the spells I was casting failed because the bad guy was looking in another direction in melee combat). This however is for ILLUSION spells i.e. ones that create an illusion whereas I can see it being applicable for spells that are of the illusion type, see next point.
2b) I think it might be intended to cover things like hot potato. You create an illusion of a car its there a nice car saving your spot and if their not there it doesn't matter, you cast hot potato on the other hand and everyone starts dropping their guns. If guards in rooms on either start doing the same it begins to be a little unbalanced as a combat spell in theory (and it means they know somethings up).
-
The way, we use area illusion spells in my games is like this.....
The normal area rules determine how large you can make the illusion. So in essence if you want to make an illusion of a dragon, you need to have a relatively high level spell in order to be able to cover the needed area.
I agree that anyone/anything looking into the area or at the area is affected by the spell, anything else would make them essentially useless.
In regards to spells like hot potato, swarm. forboding....etc. targets need to be in the area of the spell to be affected.
Spells like silence and darkness and light of course affects people outside the area. Here it is my understanding that the area of effect has to do with how large an area where the sound is dampened for example. Meaning that that the area formula determines in how large an area the sound is affected, but like with phantasm, invisibility..etc. anyone/anything outside the area is affected when trying to sense whats going on in the area. Again, if it isn't like that, the spells are virtually useless.
-
This leaves questions unanswered re: illusion sustained area spells. Reading p. 281 and 282...
1) You can move the area "provided the spell area is in the magician's LOS"
Minor issue, but I guess they mean, the center of the area. Otherwise you can't move it if it's in a corridor... as part of the area would not be in LOS...
2) "Characters that drop out are no longer affected by the spel"l
Does that include creatures you perceived at the time of casting, but which left your LOS yet are still in the radius?
There's a real confusion here (no pun) about the metaphysics of sustained area illusions.
In a previous thread, it was clarified that single-target sustained spell works with the "missile lock-on" analogy: you lock on the target at time of casting, then you can sustain it even if it leaves LOS.
But S area spells seem to work with the "gas cloud" metaphor. You lob a gas grenade at a point, and sustain and/or move the cloud. That's very different...
To reconcile the two, Area spells would have to work like a multi-target lock (select targets upon castings; the zone doesn't persist). But the Manipulatin Area Sustained spell will be unhappy...
i guess special rules are in order - one size doesn't fit all there...
-
This is more than a 5 year old thread.......
-
Well there are deeper issues that haven't been resolves for millenia!
I haven't found anything about that one, at least..
-
Range requirements are used at the time of casting, not while sustaining a spell you already cast.
In case of LOS illusions you need a line of sight to the target where you want your spell to take effect at the time of casting. You may sustain the illusion even while not having a continuous line of sight to the target. For example to cast Improved Invisibility on your Samurai you need to have line of sight to the Samurai at time of casting but then you only need to sustain the spell as the Samurai venture inside the facility. Any potential observers that the samurai walk pass get a chance to oppose the spell even if you don't have line of sight to them.
In case of LOS(A) illusions you need a line of sight to the location where you want your spell to take effect at the time of casting. You may sustain the illusion even while not having a continuous line of sight to the location. For example to cast Trid Phantasm in the lobby you need to have line of sight to the lobby at time of casting but then you only need to sustain the spell as you take the elevator to the second floor. Any potential observers that walk into the lobby get a chance to oppose the spell even if you don't have line of sight to them.
-
That is a clear explanation of the situation for these kinds of illusions.
But notice it's not how sustained area spells work as per the general rule. There is in fact two way of handling S/A spells. One that applies to spells like those you mention, and Poltergeist; the other that applies to spells like Mod Mind.
1) “Movable emanation” spells
E.g. Those work like indicated p. 282, step 7b, but contradict 2f, p. 281.
You create a “cloud”, and you can move it. Affected creatures change depending on who finds itself in or out of the area. You don’t need LOS to individual targets, rather to the general area (e.g. if you Mass Animate a box of bearings, you animate the bearings, not the box).
2) “Multi-Lock-on” spells.
E.g. These work like 2f p. 281 but ignore 7b p. 282.
Targets are selected at time of casting, then they don’t change, and you cannot “move” the area, because it doesn’t really persist. These are not “area” spells: they are “multi-target” spells, much like casting the single-target version several times at once (in the same way that Manaball is, in the end, a multi-cast Manabolt).
If one would insist on following RAW, results are weird... Like phantasms that only affect you if you are within Magic meters of the center AND in LOS of the caster and so on.
-
That is a clear explanation of the situation for these kinds of illusions.
Thank you.
But notice it's not how sustained area spells work as per the general rule.
Reason why I explained how AoE Illusions work is because this is a topic specifically about "AoE Illusions" ;-)
There is in fact two way of handling S/A spells.
Different spell classes and different specific spells might have specific rules on how to resolve them.
Detection spells, for example, have rather specific AoE rules (which also doesn't fit into your two explanations).
If one would insist on following RAW, results are weird... Like phantasms that only affect you if you are within Magic meters of the center AND in LOS of the caster and so on.
Not really. Specific trumps general.
1. Size of the illusion is restricted by the size of the AoE ("*as the illusion is no larger than the spell’s area of effect.*")
2. Anyone who might observe the illusion get to oppose it ("*Anyone who might pierce the illusion must successfully
resist the spell.*")