Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: JmOz01 on <05-31-15/2133:42>
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So inspired by the "Fun with Dongles" & "Black Trench coat sleaze special" threads I present
THE BLUE OFFENDER
2,000 Y Blue Defender Comlink (DP 1, FW 5)
100 Sim Module
24,000 Level 4Attack Dongle (CA 4)
1,400 Add a module (Choose a program...probably hammer, maybe fork, mugger or decryption)
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27,500 Y
What is it good for? It is primarily intended for cybercombat, of course you could upgrade the dongle to a 5-6 level instead, but I think a 4 would be good for most characters. The character who uses this would probably use it in AR mode BTW, thus the lack of a Hot Sim (Honestly added the Sim module only to crank the price up a 100...It's a neurosis with me)
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I think rating 4 attack dongle costs 48k 4 squared times x 3000 so 16*3000 = 48 000
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Using a DP1 commlink for Cybercombat sounds like a bad idea. For something at this scale of investment, why not invest the 1k extra to get 5/5? (or more, of course). Granted, if you stay in AR the 4 extra DP won't be as essential, but it's still used in plenty of tests that are needed for cybercombat.
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For a secondary hacker, I probably wouldn't worry about the Data Processing aspect. If you only had the Cybercombat skill, you could do enough damage with just Brute Force and Data Spike, both of which use Cybercombat, Logic, and Attack.
That being said, you've got an excellent point about the Hermes Ikon (DR5) commlink; for 3000¥ you get DP5 and FW5, allowing you to use hot-sim for that +2 dice pool bonus, at the risk of physical damage, with a +4 Initiative Score advantage over the Blue Offender route. A fully specced out AR hacker may already have 4d6 initiative dice, but if not then the Hermes Ikon is a good route.
Rooks is right, too; writers have confirmed that the price of attack/sleaze dongles should be Rating2 * 3000, making a Rating 4 Attack Dongle cost 48k ¥.
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Yah I went digging and found out about the cost.
Really kind of sucked for me as my character I was working on does not have the extra 24k to spend on it, had to downgrade it to a 3 (Which I could find the 3k for by gutting my armor's modifications).
Thinking about making the program slot a decryption instead of hammer. I did (on the character) use a much better comlink however (The Avalon).
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For my money, I would go with Virtual Machine and use Encryption and Hammer. Not only do you get the Limit increase making it more likely that you'll score a hit, but you also get more DV with each attack. A link like this would be unlikely to last long against a dedicated hacker, so focusing on the surprise attack would be the most sensible thing to do to my mind.
Another useful commlink is pretty much any commlink with a program slot for Wrapper. Being able to disguise that smartlinked Ares Predator V as an e-cig with vanilla flavour means your opponent has to have a reason to try to see through your disguised icon :)
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For a secondary hacker, I probably wouldn't worry about the Data Processing aspect. If you only had the Cybercombat skill, you could do enough damage with just Brute Force and Data Spike, both of which use Cybercombat, Logic, and Attack.
Even if you limit yourself to only those offensive action (which, yes, will probably be fine as a secondary hacker), Matrix Perception is still kind of essential. And that's Data Processing.
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Do you really need Matrix Perception, though? Couldn't the primary hacker say "Attack that icon!" and that'd be enough? If it's running silent, then yeah, you're outta luck, but if it isn't then you spot every icon within 100m of your location automatically so a Matrix Perception Test wouldn't necessarily be needed, right?
It's akin to spotting an NPC that is using stealth vs one that is standing in the open, to my mind. One requires a perception test, the other (probably) doesn't from a combat perspective. If all you've got is Cybercombat, you'll probably have to be lucky to exceed that limit of 1 anyway.
All this being said, I do agree with you that a DR5 commlink is a relatively cheap investment if you're actually going to be a secondary hacker. So there's that.
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True about the automatic spotting, and I guess in the situations where this secondary decker is acting that'll usually be enough. So yeah, the extra Data Processing isn't strictly neccesary I guess. But yeah, DR5 is a cheap investment if you're doing this.
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Thats what I never understood about networking, theoretically you should be able to use whatever matrix attribute is the best in the network and share that information across it, use a 6 DP 6 Fire wall Transys Avalon to spot/defend maybe as the master spot a hidden icon then use your attack dongle/send the information over to your EvoTech Himitsu and sleaze marks on it if you get attacked you use the transys fire wall as defense
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Rooks
Under the current ruleset, you'd have to move your persona between devices to accomplish what you're discussing, which requires a full reboot. So it's possible, but not seamlessly so.
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And Agents?
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If you had a program module, then yes, I believe that would be possible.
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you need a program module for an agent? Nixdorf Sekretär comes with a stock rating 3 agent
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For commlinks? Absolutely; Agents are cyberprograms. The Secretary is assumed to come with a program module, I believe.
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Yeah... an Rating 6 Agent in a Virtual Machine with an Attack Dongle will be a better secondary hacker than you as a PC ever will. Personally I think Sleaze would get more bang for the buck cause he could Run Silent, Hack on the Fly, Format Device, & Reboot System. Make take him a while to accomplish it but he is rolling 12 dice each time only limited by you Sleaze Dongle Rating (3-4 would cover all but the best rolls.) VR so 12+3d6 for Initiative should get it accomplished in 2 or 3 combat turns. It's just so Skill Intensive to invest in anyway that is worthwhile to do so it'll really take away from your main character. Shadowrun rewards Specialists not multiclass characters.
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My Logic 10 hermetic might take issue with your Rating 6 Agent statement...
I have a problem with Virtual Machine. Well, 2:
1) Can you run programs on a commlink with Virtual Machine? You can run Virtual Machine on a Program Carrier, but then it's the Program Carrier that runs the program. But Commlinks can't normally run programs - at all - regardless of their program capacity.
I mean if you can, great, I know what I'll be buying for my commlink. But I don't think you can. (Wait, is there a Data Trails errata yet?).
2) Even if Virtual Machine works, you can't run Agents on a commlink. You can only run Agents on Decks. This is even stricter than point 1; other devices that can run cyberprograms (that is, RCC's) can't run agents either. Agents are strictly a Deck thing.
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There's a commlink that comes bundled with an agent already, so it's not exactly accurate to say only cyberdecks can run them. Most commlinks don't have the necessary whatever to run them. VM does.
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Top Dog
Only the strictest reading of RAW makes Agents a cyberdeck only thing. I would argue that Agent = Cyberprogram at the very base level, even if it is semi-autonomous, and since an RCC can run cyberprograms that's really all there is to it.
As for virtual machine; the express purpose of this program is to add 2 program slots. If you can run Virtual Machine in a program carrier (you can) then you can run two programs in the virtual environment.
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My Logic 10 hermetic might take issue with your Rating 6 Agent statement...
I have a problem with Virtual Machine. Well, 2:
1) Can you run programs on a commlink with Virtual Machine? You can run Virtual Machine on a Program Carrier, but then it's the Program Carrier that runs the program. But Commlinks can't normally run programs - at all - regardless of their program capacity.
I mean if you can, great, I know what I'll be buying for my commlink. But I don't think you can. (Wait, is there a Data Trails errata yet?).
2) Even if Virtual Machine works, you can't run Agents on a commlink. You can only run Agents on Decks. This is even stricter than point 1; other devices that can run cyberprograms (that is, RCC's) can't run agents either. Agents are strictly a Deck thing.
You can have the Virtual Machine Program put into a Program Module. You can install a Program Module into any device including a Commlink. You can run an Agent & 1 other Program on a Virtual Machine Program. So therefore you can run an Agent on a Commlink... That's RAW!!!!!!!!!!!! You could do it with a toaster it just would be very bad at its job.
If you're Hermantic has such a massive amount of Karma to blow to not only get Logic 10 but get Skill Levels of 6 in Computer, Hacking, & Cybercombat..... only 2 options possible. Either he is the most confused & crappy mage around or he has so much Karma to blow he has become Godlike in Power & has transcended the bounds of the game!!! Which apparently is a thing, another poster said that is what his players are. So maybe yours is similar in that instead of being retired like every other person who plays RPGs does, you are playing a functional god as a PC. If so.... same question I had for the other guy, WHY???
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There was a whole big discussion on running Agents on RCC's a while back; I'm not going to repeat all the points there so I'll refer to there: http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=18599.60
Ironically I was initially on the side that it should be possible there, but I was persuaded otherwise.
(my assumption being that if they can't run on an RCC's slots they can't run on Commlinks either).
The problem with Virtual Machine is that it increases Program Capacity of the host device, and that's all it does (well, besides the extra incoming damage). It doesn't actually run the programs itself, it just means you can run more. Now, if the only reason that commlinks can't run programs is because they have no Program Capacity, then yes, Virtual Machine would work.
That, then, is the question. Can commlinks run cyberprograms if they get Program Capacity? My first instint would be no. However, when I actually tried to find sources, all I can find is
but unlike a cyberdeck it has no space for cyberprograms or other hacking tools.
Which would imply that, as is your point, the problem with running cyberprograms is only one of Program Capacity, and once you get it from Virtual Machine, you can run programs on that.
So what I'm going to do is ask my GM for a counterargument. If he has none, I can run VM on my commlink (yay!); if he does I'll post it here.
A wild post appears! The VM part is already answered above, but...
If you're Hermantic has such a massive amount of Karma to blow to not only get Logic 10 but get Skill Levels of 6 in Computer, Hacking, & Cybercombat..... only 2 options possible. Either he is the most confused & crappy mage around or he has so much Karma to blow he has become Godlike in Power & has transcended the bounds of the game!!! Which apparently is a thing, another poster said that is what his players are. So maybe yours is similar in that instead of being retired like every other person who plays RPGs does, you are playing a functional god as a PC. If so.... same question I had for the other guy, WHY???
Increased Logic is a good thing for a hermetic mage to have and not *that* hard to get; that gives Logic 10. I had high Computer for roleplay reasons already, but that's not the point. Point is, to be better then a R6 Agent, you only need 2 computer/hacking/cybercombat. That is not that expensive to get. Getting all that to 6, yes, that would be excessive, but I'm not competing against a R8 agent.
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It's interesting to consider the parallels here to the Resonance [Program] discussions after core release.
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Increased Logic is a good thing for a hermetic mage to have and not *that* hard to get; that gives cking/cybercombat. That is not that expensive to get. Getting all that to 6, yes, that would be excessive, but I'm not competing against a R8 agent.
So you can do 2/3 of the actions better (going to take all the Matrix skills at 2 to encompass them all) but not Sleaze. So you can fight, I'm not a 100% but it seems like a mage fighting in Matrix Combat isn't the best use of your skill set. Also doesn't actually compare to my Agent at all, that I described since he does the other 1/3 of things better and another 1/3 as well... non combat actions. He can sleaze Marks on his own initiative to help the Decker get better score in combat but he does all kinds of grunt Legwork quite well, relieving the Decker to do the important stuff. Also gets me onto grids, continously scanning the Matrix surrounding me (unless you also got an Int of 10 too to keep up) on his Initiative not wasting mine laying in an unconscious slump to be in VR like him. Lots of utility not a lot of combat.... though swapping the Sleaze Dongle for a decent Attack Dongle would let him be a decent attack dog for the Decker as well. All of which is on is own VR Initiative and exactly zero of mine!!! So I can do whatever I'm supposed to be doing while I just sic my dog to help.
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It's interesting to consider the parallels here to the Resonance [Program] discussions after core release.
What was the general concensus to Techomancers taking 1 unresisted Stun Damage for running a Virtual Machine as an Echo???
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If all player characters on a team each had a decent commlink with a Program Module with Virtual Machine, a Rating 3-4 Agent, and the Browse program, matrix legwork would be a lot easier for everyone :)
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Increased Logic is a good thing for a hermetic mage to have and not *that* hard to get; that gives cking/cybercombat. That is not that expensive to get. Getting all that to 6, yes, that would be excessive, but I'm not competing against a R8 agent.
So you can do 2/3 of the actions better (going to take all the Matrix skills at 2 to encompass them all) but not Sleaze. So you can fight, I'm not a 100% but it seems like a mage fighting in Matrix Combat isn't the best use of your skill set. Also doesn't actually compare to my Agent at all, that I described since he does the other 1/3 of things better and another 1/3 as well... non combat actions. He can sleaze Marks on his own initiative to help the Decker get better score in combat but he does all kinds of grunt Legwork quite well, relieving the Decker to do the important stuff. Also gets me onto grids, continously scanning the Matrix surrounding me (unless you also got an Int of 10 too to keep up) on his Initiative not wasting mine laying in an unconscious slump to be in VR like him. Lots of utility not a lot of combat.... though swapping the Sleaze Dongle for a decent Attack Dongle would let him be a decent attack dog for the Decker as well. All of which is on is own VR Initiative and exactly zero of mine!!! So I can do whatever I'm supposed to be doing while I just sic my dog to help.
Well no, fighting in the Matrix isn't going to be optimal. In combat, I'm probably too busy slinging spells to actually help in cybercombat. In that respect, an Agent would be more useful - it's an extra set of actions.
He wouldn't be better at it though, and that was what I was referring to. If for some reason I'm not needed for the spellslinging, having my mage around would be about as good as having an agent (without costing a program slot). Remember too, we were talking an Agent running on a Commlink - he'll have the same Matrix stats as I can have.
You're right about Perception (and also Search) btw, I can't compete on intuition.
I should note I don't actually *have* Cybercombat, and only have Hacking on 1 - because, as it turns out, Hacking 2 isn't worth it since we háve a good decker for that stuff - me being able to assist is nice, but it's almost never worth doing it on my own. Neither is Cybercombat since I don't have an attack dongle anyway. My point was that there are concepts that can prove your
an Rating 6 Agent in a Virtual Machine with an Attack Dongle will be a better secondary hacker than you as a PC ever will.
wrong. It doesn't have to cost that much to be a secondary "decker"; not much more than, say, secondary street sam. Although secondary street sam is probably more useful.
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What was the general concensus to Techomancers taking 1 unresisted Stun Damage for running a Virtual Machine as an Echo???
Almost everyone I've spoken to on the subject was intensely against it being a thing.
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What was the general concensus to Techomancers taking 1 unresisted Stun Damage for running a Virtual Machine as an Echo???
Almost everyone I've spoken to on the subject was intensely against it being a thing.
Wait... I'm sorry, this is totally OT, but why would a TM take Virtual Machine? As far as I understand, they don't have a limit to the number of programs they can have going at once. Am I missing something?
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What was the general concensus to Techomancers taking 1 unresisted Stun Damage for running a Virtual Machine as an Echo???
Almost everyone I've spoken to on the subject was intensely against it being a thing.
Makes sense... that's a very cheesy boost to a ccharacters main role. Also TMs have no "onboard memory" to make a Virtual Machine out of, it's all magic in their minds. Putting it in a commlink is no where near on the same level since it's not going to be used by any decker in existence
What was the general concensus to Techomancers taking 1 unresisted Stun Damage for running a Virtual Machine as an Echo???
Almost everyone I've spoken to on the subject was intensely against it being a thing.
Wait... I'm sorry, this is totally OT, but why would a TM take Virtual Machine? As far as I understand, they don't have a limit to the number of programs they can have going at once. Am I missing something?
TMS can't run Cyberprograms at all... they have no memory capacity to do so. They can get an Echo that allows their special matrix magic to emulate a Program with their mind. But they don't interact with the Matrix in any way that would let them be running and infinite amount of Programs.... they can't even run 1!!!
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What was the general concensus to Techomancers taking 1 unresisted Stun Damage for running a Virtual Machine as an Echo???
Almost everyone I've spoken to on the subject was intensely against it being a thing.
Wait... I'm sorry, this is totally OT, but why would a TM take Virtual Machine? As far as I understand, they don't have a limit to the number of programs they can have going at once. Am I missing something?
A TM has a limit - namely, 0, as a TM can't run programs (except as Echo's, in which case they're fixed).
The idea with taking Virtual Machine is that the Technomancer gets 2 program slots to fill, as they wish and dynamically, with regular programs. (As Novocrane said, most people agree they can't do that).
It's related to this discussion since here, too, we have something that can't normally run programs, but now has an option to get one, fixed program to fun. The difference being that Commlinks are actual hardware that can run software, unlike Technomancers.
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I should note I don't actually *have* Cybercombat, and only have Hacking on 1 - because, as it turns out, Hacking 2 isn't worth it since we háve a good decker for that stuff - me being able to assist is nice, but it's almost never worth doing it on my own. Neither is Cybercombat since I don't have an attack dongle anyway. My point was that there are concepts that can prove your
an Rating 6 Agent in a Virtual Machine with an Attack Dongle will be a better secondary hacker than you as a PC ever will.
wrong. It doesn't have to cost that much to be a secondary "decker"; not much more than, say, secondary street sam. Although secondary street sam is probably more useful.
You are still not as good as the Agent. Why??? Cause you would have to be spending your actions to do what he is doing. He is doing those actions for me, I am still doing my job. So the Agent is a force multipler to the party as opposed to your being a force decrease in the same scenario. So maybe at times you could equal him & but never add like he does.
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@I_AM_ZHOUL!!! and Top Dog
[shamelessplug]Might I interest you in an Agent-Cluster (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=19112.msg374615#msg374615)? A fully autonomous system that can compete with medium level deckers for under 100.000 NY[/shamelessplug]
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A TM has a limit - namely, 0, as a TM can't run programs (except as Echo's, in which case they're fixed).
The idea with taking Virtual Machine is that the Technomancer gets 2 program slots to fill, as they wish and dynamically, with regular programs. (As Novocrane said, most people agree they can't do that).
Ah, that's why I didn't get it. I didn't realize we were involving crazy talk. :D I was approaching it from the understanding that TMs can't run programs at all, but can take as many program Echoes as they want (even if it is a generally terrible idea), they don't have a limit to those (I'm surprised it isn't limited to Resonance or something). I've got to find that thread, I would love to read the rationale for VM working for TMs. I mean, even just from a game balance perspective it's silly (then again, so are TMs).
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It does raise the question if your playing as a secondary decker which would be a better investment of your money. A comlink with attack/sleeze added or just shelling out the cash for the cyberdeck. Lets use this one as our sample upgrading the blue defender to a transys avalon its only another 3k for a total of 54,500.
Transys Avalon with attack/sleeze (purchasers choice)
DP: 6
FW: 6
A/S: 4
if your willing to damage it you can add the other attribute to have . . .
DP: 6
FW: 6
A/S: 4
A/S: 2 + Irremoveable matrix damage from jamming things in.
Either way it can run 6 programs all at once which gives you the option to further improve those stats by another 1 at a value of 1 program each so you could be looking at DP: 7, FW: 7, A/S: 5, A/S 3.
For the same price range you can buy the entry level deck.
MCD-1
4/3/2/1
Soooo the question becomes what's better . . .
1) Undamaged comlink with attack/sleeze options.
2) Damaged comlink with attack and sleeze options.
3) Undamaged cyberdeck with attribute switching and freedom to add more mods.
Versatility vs power hmmmm I wonder how easy the dongles are to switch looking at this. If you have the cash you could have a 7/7/4 comlink where switching a dongle changes it from attack to sleeze with the power to run 6 programs while all the equivilent price (80kish) have at least one 1 in their array and can only run a few programs. Its actually looking somewhat tempting.
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How you getting a commlink with attack sleaze actions without an attack dongle and a EvoTech Himitsu, personally I go Transys Avalon for spotting defending slave the EvoTech Himitsu running silent and attack dongle if I need it
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Modifying the base unit.
A dongle can add either attack or sleeze while a device modification can add the other attribute at a rating of 1. You can then improve that as a further modification to 2 * the new attribute rating however doing causes 2 permanent and irrreparable points of matrix damage to the device.
So basically you can spend 48k odd nuyen to buy a dongle with an attack/sleeze rating of 4 then use parts to modify the device to have 2 points of matrix damage and the other rating at 4 as well. Of course if you only want cheap and one attribute don't bother buying the dongle at all just get ahold of the parts and modify the commlink you'll save thousands of nuyen and your commlink only suffers 2 points of matrix damage in exchange.
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Either way it can run 6 programs all at once which gives you the option to further improve those stats by another 1 at a value of 1 program each so you could be looking at DP: 7, FW: 7, A/S: 5, A/S 3.
Where are you getting the ability for a commlink to run cyberdeck programs?
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From missing the rule in a different section of the book, my mistake there you can either use the modification to run 1/2 programs or the extra attribute not both.
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Just remember that Agents really rally suck at checking their own overwatch score, control devices (such as elevators, maglocks, lights etc. etc.), hide once spotted (even if they can successfully erasing hostile marks), jam signals and snoop (they can't view or re-transmit hostile camera feeds and they can't snoop a persona as it travels the matrix).
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But they can matrix perceive and defend against attacks
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Sure, they do after all have their own matrix persona with their rating acting as mental attributes - but they don't have a matrix condition monitor or physical location of their own, instead they share the matrix condition monitor and physical location of the device where you probably run your matrix persona....
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Just remember that Agents really rally suck at checking their own overwatch score, control devices (such as elevators, maglocks, lights etc. etc.), hide once spotted (even if they can successfully erasing hostile marks), jam signals and snoop (they can't view or re-transmit hostile camera feeds and they can't snoop a persona as it travels the matrix).
I guess it comes down to how one perceives the term "Secondary Decker." Like does that mean you want something that can fill in for a Deckers Secondary roles to allow the Real Decker to focus on his primary tasks or do you mean a someone who has inferior decker capabilities. I think the Agent route gives the most versatility to a non-deckers to contribute to Matrix activities while having the best cost to effectiveness route. But if have a large chunk of skill points you don't need to use towards your primary Role & reasonably decent Mental Attributes then the second option is a way to achieve it. But that takes a substantial investment to become an essentially "Multi Class" character & not that viable option for a wide range of Characters without making them unusable from MAD. High Logic Street Sams or Shamans coupled with the skill level investment from characters that have Attributes & Resources/Magic as their normal A & B choices.
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So, back to my post a while back - I asked my GM about a counterargument to the whole Virtual Machine/Agent/Cyberprograms bit. His main arguments was "I don't think that's balanced" (which, to be fair, is true - if you can run VM in a program carrier and get 2 free slots, there's no reason ever to get any other one). But that hardly a convincing rule argument, even if it's binding for my own game.
He did have a secondary argument, though, which I find harder to counter. Cyberprograms can only run on their intended system. That is, you can't run Cyberdeck programs on RCC's and vice versa - you must have one made for the platform in question (see sidebar, p269 SR5). So you'd need to find Commlink cyberprograms to run on a commlink - but there are no Commlink cyberprograms.
Program Carriers bypass that since it comes with a hardcoded program that it runs by itself. But using a Virtual Machine would mean you increase the program limit of the Commlink in question - and programs running thusly would be running on the commlink, and thus need commlink programs.
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Counter-counter argument:
A virtual machine is by its very nature the thing you need to run system foreign software.
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Except you're not running a commlink cyberprogram on a commlink with a program carrier module; you're running a cyberdeck cyberprogram on the program carrier module, which has the dedicated hardware necessary for it. You still wouldn't be running the cyberdeck cyberprograms on your commlink if you got Virtual Machine in a program carrier, because the program carrier is the hardware that would be running the virtual machine (and thus the two extra programs).
As for your GMs argument; if the writers intended for Virtual Machine to be an exception to the rule about Program Carriers, don't you think they would have stated as much explicitly?
Besides, there's already another commlink out there with an Agent program; the Nixdorf.
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Except you're not running a commlink cyberprogram on a commlink with a program carrier module; you're running a cyberdeck cyberprogram on the program carrier module, which has the dedicated hardware necessary for it. You still wouldn't be running the cyberdeck cyberprograms on your commlink if you got Virtual Machine in a program carrier, because the program carrier is the hardware that would be running the virtual machine (and thus the two extra programs).
Virtual Machine doesn't run two programs - it increases the program limit of the device (so, the commlink - the program carrier isn't a device upon itself) by 2. So while the argument is true for the program carrier itself, it is not the case for the Virtual Machine's programs - those still run on the commlink.
Question: in your view, if you mod in a Program Carrier with Virtual Machine to an RCC, does it run RCC programs or Cyberdeck programs? Can it run Autosofts?
As for your GMs argument; if the writers intended for Virtual Machine to be an exception to the rule about Program Carriers, don't you think they would have stated as much explicitly?
I'm not saying there is an exception. You can, absolutely, run Virtual Machine on a Program Carrier. If you do that in a Cyberdeck, it does exactly as you say. You can run it (via PC) on a commlink as well - it just doesn't do anything.
That's not unique to Virtual Machine, either. You can get a Configurator or Hammer Program Carrier as well. You could also install those in a commlink and run them - they just won't actually do anything, since you can't do the things they modify on a commlink.
Besides, there's already another commlink out there with an Agent program; the Nixdorf.
Yes. Special commlinks with build-in things can break the standard rules. You can't usually modify commlinks to have 5 Sleaze either, but you can if you buy the one with that buildin. That doesn't mean you can run a regular agent on a Commlink.
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Hi,
Except you're not running a commlink cyberprogram on a commlink with a program carrier module; you're running a cyberdeck cyberprogram on the program carrier module, which has the dedicated hardware necessary for it. You still wouldn't be running the cyberdeck cyberprograms on your commlink if you got Virtual Machine in a program carrier, because the program carrier is the hardware that would be running the virtual machine (and thus the two extra programs).
Virtual Machine doesn't run two programs - it increases the program limit of the device (so, the commlink - the program carrier isn't a device upon itself) by 2. So while the argument is true for the program carrier itself, it is not the case for the Virtual Machine's programs - those still run on the commlink.
Question: in your view, if you mod in a Program Carrier with Virtual Machine to an RCC, does it run RCC programs or Cyberdeck programs? Can it run Autosofts?
As for your GMs argument; if the writers intended for Virtual Machine to be an exception to the rule about Program Carriers, don't you think they would have stated as much explicitly?
I'm not saying there is an exception. You can, absolutely, run Virtual Machine on a Program Carrier. If you do that in a Cyberdeck, it does exactly as you say. You can run it (via PC) on a commlink as well - it just doesn't do anything.
That's not unique to Virtual Machine, either. You can get a Configurator or Hammer Program Carrier as well. You could also install those in a commlink and run them - they just won't actually do anything, since you can't do the things they modify on a commlink.
Besides, there's already another commlink out there with an Agent program; the Nixdorf.
Yes. Special commlinks with build-in things can break the standard rules. You can't usually modify commlinks to have 5 Sleaze either, but you can if you buy the one with that buildin. That doesn't mean you can run a regular agent on a Commlink.
@Top Dog
i agree with you, that VM and Configurator won't work on an commlink, but Hammer would work, if you have an Attack-Dongle
best regards Max
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Hammer would absolutely do something on a commlink with an Attack or Sleaze dongle... Your argument doesn't hold water.
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Well ignore the Hammer then. How does it not hold water with Configurator?
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You can still run Configurator just fine to load a program configuration (which would normally take two free actions or more if you had Virtual Machine for two program slots), you just don't get to switch around your Matrix attributes since they are all fixed.
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Except you're not running a commlink cyberprogram on a commlink with a program carrier module; you're running a cyberdeck cyberprogram on the program carrier module, which has the dedicated hardware necessary for it. You still wouldn't be running the cyberdeck cyberprograms on your commlink if you got Virtual Machine in a program carrier, because the program carrier is the hardware that would be running the virtual machine (and thus the two extra programs).
Except it is not the program carrier that runs the program, p.65 of Data Trails "This module holds a program that your deck can run permanently" emphasis mine.
The program carrier merely provides the capacity for the program, it doesn't run it by itself. This means one of two things, either Commlinks can run cyberprograms but just lacked the capacity to do so, or they can't run cyberprograms regardless of receiving a module with a program.
Personally I believe that they can run the programs once they have the hardware to do so, I highly doubt that their software capabilities differ greatly from a cyberdeck... If they did, then you wouldn't be able to just plug an attack/sleaze dongle into them as their operating system would just go wtf?
If I am correct (and only clarification by the authors will let us know if I am) and a commlink can run a cyberprogram, than virtual machine is fair game as it will provide the same advantage and drawback that a deck receives.
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Semantics.
If the Program Carrier only allowed a deck to run a program, it would be useless as a modification, wouldn't it.
Apply Occam's Razor and it should (hopefully) be fairly evident that Program Carrier simply provides a Program Slot of 1 that cannot be changed. If you choose to use that slot for Virtual Machine, you can now run two programs.
This is the simplest, most straight forward answer and doesn't rely on twisting of grammar and RAW to make an argument. If you want to argue RAW, go right ahead. Since I've made my position clear on what I think this piece of gear does, I'm out.