Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: PauloAM on <06-09-15/1633:51>
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Hello guys,
In the last stage of the Life Modules creation method, it says I can get new qualities and cancel negative ones with my karma. My doubts are:
a) To buy a positive one, do I spend double the karma price?
b) To cancel a negative one, do I spend double the quality value?
c) If I get a new negative quality, do I earn double the karma?
Thanks guys!
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In the Core Rulebook, it doesn't mention doubling the cost of qualities until it starts talking about character advancement. Therefore, it seems very likely that as long as you are still in "creation mode" Qualities are purchased/removed/bought off using the normal, un-doubled, values.
Otherwise, you would be using the full advancement rules and taking new negative qualities wouldn't earn any karma, while buying off/up qualities would cost double. So, to directly answer the question:
a) No, pay normal karma value price
b) No, pay normal karma value price
c) No, earn normal karma value price
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Thanks a lot!
But then, the Life Modules method actually creates stronger characters than the conventional one, am I right?
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Within a very limited framework, yes.
LMs are better than Karma, unless you want choices it just doesn't offer, like non-North American or a full corporate citizen.
Also, some groups insist on actually using that background, which makes the characters horribly cliché as the only way to get a decent starting character with it is to stack a specific stat or skill group.
Priority is mostly better, but Life Modules allow you niche benefits like 7 in a skillgroup or Infection + Surge + Positive Qualities.
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Life Modules characters can work out to more overall points than Point Build, but they are not usually stronger than them, because they have a lot of skills outside of their specialty (for example, if you start out from Seattle, are a Corporate Drone, then go to High School, then go to State University, you have the computer skill at rating: 6. Does your character really need that if he is, say, a street samurai or face?). It's a fun system to mess around with, and it tends to create characters with lots of skills, but they also tend to be weaker than what their points would add up to.
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Yep unless you houserule more karma to get a decent character you have to choose modules based on their benefit rather than their flavour and even then you'll probably wind up weaker than a priority one e.g sorcery/conjuring 6 but only 5 in willpower and charisma to offset drain. On the other hand I personally prefer it but you'd need all the characters using it and the game to account for their weaker start point, or be houseruled to give you more karma to spend.
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Hey Chummers,
I am not trying to get off topic ,but can someone explain the way the qualities in the life modules work? I mean, Can you exceed the 25 positive/negative total? Also, if you have 25 positive and 7 negative, Do you have to even the negative with the positive?
I have been over the section in the Core dozens of times and it is kind of clear about it, at least to me. It say's on pg. 71 "that at character creation a character can only possess at most 25 positive and 25 negative."
My whole group including the Game Master thinks this does not apply to the life modules, I do? What does the RAW say? Thoughts? Not trying to start any arguments either. Just really need help. Figuring out what is correct. Thanks.
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For what I know, yes you can have more than 25 on both. But in the end phase of Life Modules it says you can't get additional negatives if you're above the cap, in order to get other negatives, you should spend leftover karma to cancel out some of them, enough to bring you under the cap.
Hope I helped :)
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As pauloam said you can at the end of module selection have more than 25 of each but when spending extra karma you can only buy up to the usual 25 negative points and may need to buy some off if your above that, positive ones have no limit to my knowledge. I think it's because negative ones give you more karma to buy things but positive ones are coming out of your 775 karma cap and thus reduces what else you can buy.
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It may be an overly simplistic take on the rules, but I read them as, you can start out over the limit on qualities purely from life modules, but as soon as you start buying additional ones you have to abide by the caps.
In other words, if you have 41 points of negative qualities from life modules and buy off some of them, you can only replace them with negative qualities that go under the limit. Buy off one of them and still have 36 points of negative qualities, you can't get any new ones. Buy off three of them and get your negative qualities down to 21, then you can take up to 4 points of new negative qualities. Similarly, if life modules give you 18 points of positive qualities, you can only get up to 7 more points of them.
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I second this ^^^^^
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Its one of those GM ruling things I think, the text in the rules themselves specifically calls out negative ones as having a cap but doesn't mention positive either way. From page 84 in the finishing off karma section . . .
If you received the same quality twice in the process and it cannot advance to a higher tier, select another quality of the same Karma cost. You may also buy off negative qualities you may have obtained in the process with your extra Karma, and you may pick new positive and negative qualities—but only if you are under the maximum amount of negative qualities (25 Karma total) after selecting all of your Life Modules. If you buy off negative qualities with Karma to put you under the limit, you can then acquire more negative qualities.
So it very explicity states you can only get negative qualities if your under the cap but doesn't mention positive ones except for saying you can pick them. Now normally if a rule isn't contradicted in a suppliment then it remains intact but if so why call out negative qualtiies as still adhering to it but not positive ones? It's a waste of word count unless something has changed from the core rules and since negative qualtiies function exactly the same it would have to be positive ones that are different.There are other things in this character creation method that are different to normal rules e.g. a max of 7 in a skill rather than 6 and as I said there can be very solid reasons for why positive qualties have no limit.
In addition to the one I mentioned above about them coming out of your karma cap there's also the fact of what happens if you get something from a module you don't particularly want? For example I want positive qualities totalling say 22 karma for my character but in picking life modules I've wound up with 11 positive points worth of qualtiies that I didn't want or worse actively dislike. What happens then? How do you get rid of those 11 points in order to select the ones you want to make your character work as there's no mechanic in place to buy off positive qualities. Are you just stuck with those 11 points worth of qualtiies being missing till after you've done a few runs and can buy them normally and have to find something else to spend the karma on in character creation rather than what you want?
For me I think positive qualities are meant to be cap free.
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It may be an overly simplistic take on the rules, but I read them as, you can start out over the limit on qualities purely from life modules, but as soon as you start buying additional ones you have to abide by the caps.
In other words, if you have 41 points of negative qualities from life modules and buy off some of them, you can only replace them with negative qualities that go under the limit. Buy off one of them and still have 36 points of negative qualities, you can't get any new ones. Buy off three of them and get your negative qualities down to 21, then you can take up to 4 points of new negative qualities. Similarly, if life modules give you 18 points of positive qualities, you can only get up to 7 more points of them.
This is the best worded response I've seen on this matter, and it should be adopted into the Errata asap. Well done Glyph!
For me I think positive qualities are meant to be cap free.
This is rules-lawyering of the basest kind in the mould of "It doesn't say I can't so I can". Since the Core Rules apply unless amended by Errata or later supplements why would anyone believe that they can buy as many Positive Qualities as they want, unless they are looking to finesse the character creation system?
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Did you read my other post and most of the one you quoted?
Like I said the reason I believe I can buy as many positive qualities as I want because . . .
1) If the core rules aren't different why waste word count specifying "negative" qualtiies in all those references in the paragraph and only have a brief mention of "You can buy more positive ones"?
2) Any positive qualities bought come out of the very, very tight karma limits for life module creation with a corresponding reduction in your buying power elsewhere. Its not the core rules you have 25 points of karma to buy positive qualities its you have 750 points to buy as much as you can including skills, abilities, qualties, gear and so on.
3) What happens if you get positive qualties you don't want as part of the life modules you HAVE to take to meet the minimum amount of points in a skill to have it be viable?
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Did you read my other post and most of the one you quoted?
Like I said the reason I believe I can buy as many positive qualities as I want because . . .
1) If the core rules aren't different why waste word count specifying "negative" qualtiies in all those references in the paragraph and only have a brief mention of "You can buy more positive ones"?
2) Any positive qualities bought come out of the very, very tight karma limits for life module creation with a corresponding reduction in your buying power elsewhere. Its not the core rules you have 25 points of karma to buy positive qualities its you have 750 points to buy as much as you can including skills, abilities, qualties, gear and so on.
3) What happens if you get positive qualties you don't want as part of the life modules you HAVE to take to meet the minimum amount of points in a skill to have it be viable?
Unlike some I do read each and every word of the posts I respond to. There's no point responding otherwise.
1) Because, perhaps, writers forget that there are Rules Lawyers waiting to split the tiniest hair, and they don't want to "waste" additional word count writing something more akin to a legal document than a game book.
2) The Life Modules contain both positive and negative qualities that are included in the calculated cost. The 750 points is to buy a set of characteristics and then polish the character off, not "buy as much as you can", although this approach explains why you have been clamouring for an increase in the amount of starting karma.
3) This should be obvious. You don't take the module. You use the karma you saved by not buying the module to buy the skills you want.
Life Modules are obviously not designed for the player who wants to create an idiot savant, capable of doing just one thing better than the rest of the world but incompetent in the rest of their life. They do create well-rounded individuals with a broad base of skills, just like the majority of people in the world.
In short, if you don't like Life Modules, nobody is forcing you to use them to create the type of character you want to play. As such, there is no need to twist the rules to fit the concept, just choose an alternative generation method.
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No offense wasn't sure given what you'd quoted and how you were only responding to that one line.
1) Then why waste the word count on restating the core rules for negative qualities?
2) Actually I'm clamouring for extra karma because I have to spend 130 odd right off the bat for magician, magic and spells. If you want to play a decent mage via life modules you can forget most of the non-human races with the exception of a maybe elf and that requires sacrifices elsewhere.
My quality choices actually usually come in below or very close to 25 points I'm arguing against the cap because of how I read it rather than a desire to buy a hundred points of positive qualties. Usually it goes over when I start trying to buy the things other people think a magician should have (mentor spirit, a stat at 6 and one at 5 for drain, spellcasting at 6+ etc). Now if I could start a game with oh 4-5 in the core skills and attributes I'd have plenty of karma.
3) That's the thing usually the modules work out as cheaper (especially since you can't spend karma first) however with the limited amount available and the way they give you lots of level 1 skills rather than higher values you have no choice but to buy specific modules if you want a decent value in your core skills e.g. as a mage you need to take corporate - mage and street magic - street mage in order to have conjuring and spellcasting at a decent value and several of these modules have qualties that are rather specific in their application. Let's say I want to take drifter for the ability to take +1 to any two attributes of my choice, the +2 to con, +1 to negotiation, some grey and black market knowledge for my face. I get stuck with high pain tolerance and sense of direction using up 10 of my positive quality karma.
We're already severely limited in our ability to choose modules having to do so for mechanical benefits rather than flavour if we then also have to worry about the positive qualities using up all our customization choice then the whole thing may as well be chucked out the window and go with either straight karma buy or priority.
However I happen to like life modules and although I feel they need some modifying to work this is not one of those modifications. I'm not twisting the rules to fit a concept I'm reading them as written.
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I do agree, quite strongly in fact, that there are some odd choices when it comes to the Qualities included with the Modules. I also wish that whomever is responsible for the final edit would bear in mind that firstly the reader may be new to the Shadowrun Universe, and secondly that the reader is not privy to the discussions regarding the whys and wherefores of new rules.
If I may quote from your last post:
Usually it goes over when I start trying to buy the things other people think a magician should have (mentor spirit, a stat at 6 and one at 5 for drain, spellcasting at 6+ etc). Now if I could start a game with oh 4-5 in the core skills and attributes I'd have plenty of karma.
For me this is the prevailing issue with the game at the moment - the school of though that a character has to be optimised in a particular way to be playable. Why be concerned with what other people think a character should have? Why not just create the character, or rather the person, you want to play? (Not directed at you, Senko, just a general cry to the masses).
I just know that by this point someone is thinking of bringing up that old standby "The Stormwind Fallacy", but I'm not saying you have to create a low-powered character to be able to roleplay. All I am trying to get across is you should be able to play any character of any strength that you want to, without being vilified for having a character with "useless" skills, or "less than optimal" stats.
I have purchased Herolab for the 5th Ed rules, so make use of the Life Modules in a slightly different way (because the alternative generation methods haven't been completed as yet). I just pick the Life Modules I want to give me a framework for the character's backstory, then try to recreate the character using the Priority method. Yes, I end up with some level 1 and 2 skills, and I have to drop some of the Knowledge skills because I run out of karma, but I do like the characters I end up with.
As more and more Life Modules get released in future books I'm sure that players will find it easier to pick unique characters.
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Hey Chummers,
Thanks for all of your great post. I truly do appreciate all of your help. Although now I have even more questions. I think the RAW in the CORE STAND!
However my GM disagrees so I cannot debate the point. It is his call. I however am the only player in the group who has not broken the system. As I explained to my fellow players, If you choose a module that brings you over the 25 max set in the core rules, Then you are not allowed to take that module and must choose another from that section.
Otherwise a player could go through and stack multiple LM's that give qualities and have a tremendous amount of positive qualities with hardly any negatives...if any at all.
Also, why say on pg 84 "-but only if you are under the MAXIMUM amount of negative qualities (25 Karma total)" How could they just mean negative qualities and not positive?
Final point and this is where it became clear to me. Pg. 85 in the example character being created called TRAINWRECK...He DOES NOT exceed the 25 karma total during creation even though according to my group he could. Then he buys off all his negative qualities and Replaces them with other negative qualities up to a point value of 25 Karma and is legit according to the RAW as I understand them.
I think I am content with my understanding of this ,but could not have gotten there without ALL of your help.
Thanks guys!
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For starters, dark, we haven't broken the system. You just don't know to make the same type of things we do. One that quality note, one of our players has 44 points in negative qualities. A perfect example of stuck qualities is if you do the military route. Aside from race, the only positive that I have is 25 points in rank.... I would take just about any other quality I could, however I am stuck with it, as I feel that is RAI.
Edit: as a side note, trainwreck take modules that don't give a lot of qualities... They should have gone with a better example.
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Bluetooth,
I was referring to "our" original character concepts. Mine was over the 25 Karma Limit as well. I was not talking about your current character who aside from the RANK quality you choose to take. Is a Physical Adept/Pixie that makes the Troll look like the wimp in the party!
I mean how you even built your Pixie is beyond me. It takes 410 Karma just for the Pixie/Adept/Full Military Life Module Build. Leaving only 340 Karma for Attributes,Skills,Gear,etc; That is not a lot.
So, how you did that sir is a true wonder ,but I guess that is why you are better at thinking outside the box than I am. I would have never been able to pull that off.
Besides that my post was about exceeding the 25 Karma Limit for Qualities. Which was to my satisfaction answered. Pixies are another topic all together. One I care not to address at this time. Later.
Thanks for all your help guys.
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Did you read my other post and most of the one you quoted?
Like I said the reason I believe I can buy as many positive qualities as I want because . . .
1) If the core rules aren't different why waste word count specifying "negative" qualtiies in all those references in the paragraph and only have a brief mention of "You can buy more positive ones"?
2) Any positive qualities bought come out of the very, very tight karma limits for life module creation with a corresponding reduction in your buying power elsewhere. Its not the core rules you have 25 points of karma to buy positive qualities its you have 750 points to buy as much as you can including skills, abilities, qualties, gear and so on.
3) What happens if you get positive qualties you don't want as part of the life modules you HAVE to take to meet the minimum amount of points in a skill to have it be viable?
Unlike some I do read each and every word of the posts I respond to. There's no point responding otherwise.
1) Because, perhaps, writers forget that there are Rules Lawyers waiting to split the tiniest hair, and they don't want to "waste" additional word count writing something more akin to a legal document than a game book.
2) The Life Modules contain both positive and negative qualities that are included in the calculated cost. The 750 points is to buy a set of characteristics and then polish the character off, not "buy as much as you can", although this approach explains why you have been clamouring for an increase in the amount of starting karma.
3) This should be obvious. You don't take the module. You use the karma you saved by not buying the module to buy the skills you want.
Life Modules are obviously not designed for the player who wants to create an idiot savant, capable of doing just one thing better than the rest of the world but incompetent in the rest of their life. They do create well-rounded individuals with a broad base of skills, just like the majority of people in the world.
In short, if you don't like Life Modules, nobody is forcing you to use them to create the type of character you want to play. As such, there is no need to twist the rules to fit the concept, just choose an alternative generation method.
Overall I completely agree with you Stirling.
The one caveat I would potentially offer is hat if you're allowed to buy off the negative qualities that you don't want from life modules you should also be able to buy back the positive qualities that you don't want as well and receive the karma back for these. Obviously this opens up the system to some powerplayer/munchkinism such as suddenly all characters spend 4 years as a drifter before taking the points back for the unwanted qualities in order to maximise their characters but as most people who talk about "optimisation" on this forum seem to actually mean powerplay/munchkin ;) I really don't think that it matters.
I would be willing to guess that almost all of my characters would be considered unplayable and derided as useless by most of the people on this forum but I really love the life modules creation system as I feel you get a much more rounded and realistic character. We just need more modules.
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I would somewhat disagree with the idiot savant. But only somewhat.
The life modules are actually very good at allowing you to be really good at one thing.. though it does allow you to spread out a little bit more. In that regard I love life modules, I just it was easier to get somethings maxed out for a character who needs lots of maxing of things (Like Technomancers and their resonance stat) but thats less of a life module problem and more of the karma gen issue.