Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Slayyne on <06-10-15/1324:04>
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What would you all suggest?
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What tradition appeals to you?
What metatype?
What spirits do you want to be able to summon?
It's easy to just give a pile of numbers but some of these choices will definitely affect play style and build.
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What whiskeyjack said...
Give us how you envision your character. Background, description, etc.
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Purest mage out there:
A magic
B attributes
C meta
D cash
E skills
You only have skills for magic stuff and enough money for a power focus. Now go build it champ!
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Purest mage out there:
A magic
B attributes
C meta
D cash
E skills
You only have skills for magic stuff and enough money for a power focus. Now go build it champ!
I'd swap skills for meta or cash. Skills E is suuuuuuuper painful. I don't know that it's even enough to cover everything a Mage would want. Spellcasting, Counterspelling, Summoning, Perception are required at high levels. Having a high rating gun skill is often a good idea too. Assensing is good at medium levels. You want at least some Sneaking. And probably Binding (though it's less useful with CHA 1 but still useful). Depending on your Drain stat you'll also want decent levels of other skills: Con for a CHA tradition for example.
Attribute wise you want to hard cap your Drain stat and get WIL and INT to 5. You don't want to totally skimp on AGI or REA, the latter espeixally if you're a not a mystic adept, because Increase Reflexes spell doesn't help with dodging. BOD 3 is a good place to be. Dump STR and either LOG or CHA depending on your tradition (or if you're an INT tradition, CHA is probably more useful than LOG for more Binding options and better active skills).
In Debt + karma to nuyen + Restricted Gear = chargen R5 Power Focus. May need some time before you can bind it but it's worthwhile. 50 reagents is probably good. More if your CHA is higher so you can get to binding spirits.
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Assuming you don't mind being human.. I might build like this:
A - Stats - 24
B - Skills - 36 / 5
C - Magic - Magic 3, 5 spells
D - Race - Human (3)
E - Resources - 6000 ny
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You want to be Magic A. The bonus skills and especially spells make a huge difference. Mages are toolboxes in 5e; it's often hard to whittle down to a top 10 spell list you're satisfied with let alone top 5.
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You want to be Magic A. The bonus skills and especially spells make a huge difference. Mages are toolboxes in 5e; it's often hard to whittle down to a top 10 spell list you're satisfied with let alone top 5.
Definitely depends what you want to do and the kind of game you run.
5 spells is plenty enough to be super effective if you are mage IMO.
You can always get more as time goes on. Every run you complete is essentially another spell. So after a five runs you will have "caught up" to where you would have been in terms of spells with starting A pick and you'll have much better skills.
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You want to be Magic A. The bonus skills and especially spells make a huge difference. Mages are toolboxes in 5e; it's often hard to whittle down to a top 10 spell list you're satisfied with let alone top 5.
Definitely depends what you want to do and the kind of game you run.
5 spells is plenty enough to be super effective if you are mage IMO.
You can always get more as time goes on. Every run you complete is essentially another spell. So after a five runs you will have "caught up" to where you would have been in terms of spells with starting A pick and you'll have much better skills.
Magic A nets you the most bang for your buck, karma-wise, for a starting mage. I can't see any sort of 'optimal' mage character with less that Magic A.
Don't forget Magic A gives you attributes, spells, and skills. With your layout you'd need to sacrifice a lot of edge (ouch) for things that are much less important to a mage:
Attributes A - mages honestly don't need that much to be effective
Skills B - Again, mages don't need that much to be effective
If you have Magic A your magic is done. You can take Skills B if you want a lot of skills, or Attributes B if you want a lot of attributes. You could even do Resources C if you want to load up there
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I WOULD GO
Skills A
Attributes B
Magic C
Metatype D (Choose human, put all special into magic)
Resources E (you start with next to no gear)
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Spend Karma on
5 spells
Mentor Spirit
Focused Concentration 5
Assuming
Magic A
Skills B
Attributes C
Race D
Money E
You have given up 3 points of edge and 25 karma to gain 4 attribute points 5 group skill levels
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I WOULD GO
Skills A
Attributes B
Magic C
Metatype D (Choose human, put all special into magic)
Resources E (you start with next to no gear)
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Spend Karma on
5 spells
Mentor Spirit
Focused Concentration 5
Assuming
Magic A
Skills B
Attributes C
Race D
Money E
You have given up 3 points of edge and 25 karma to gain 4 attribute points 5 group skill levels
The thing is is that the 5 group skills are almost useless for a mage. You don't want them in any magic skills (you want 6 points + specializations in your skills). And ... yeah. What would they go in? If you're a social mage maybe you could put them in a social skill group, but thats the only thing I'm seeing.
Also, if you choose to go mystic adept, you need that karma you're spending on spells for powerpoints instead (a bit outside the scope of 'pure' mage, I suppose ... depending on the definition).
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You want to be Magic A. The bonus skills and especially spells make a huge difference. Mages are toolboxes in 5e; it's often hard to whittle down to a top 10 spell list you're satisfied with let alone top 5.
Definitely depends what you want to do and the kind of game you run.
5 spells is plenty enough to be super effective if you are mage IMO.
You can always get more as time goes on. Every run you complete is essentially another spell. So after a five runs you will have "caught up" to where you would have been in terms of spells with starting A pick and you'll have much better skills.
Magic A nets you the most bang for your buck, karma-wise, for a starting mage. I can't see any sort of 'optimal' mage character with less that Magic A.
Don't forget Magic A gives you attributes, spells, and skills. With your layout you'd need to sacrifice a lot of edge (ouch) for things that are much less important to a mage:
Attributes A - mages honestly don't need that much to be effective
Skills B - Again, mages don't need that much to be effective
If you have Magic A your magic is done. You can take Skills B if you want a lot of skills, or Attributes B if you want a lot of attributes. You could even do Resources C if you want to load up there
I simply don't agree.. If you swapped Magic A and Skills C without doing anything else to priorities you'd gain 8 group skill points and 8 other skill points.. and lose 5 spells.. then the only further difference is your edge. Yes.. if you were to buy all those edge points it might cost you a lot of Karma, theoretically.. but If you'd rather have WAY more skills and less edge it is much better to not take Magic A. Which leads me to...
I also don't agree with your assessment that mages don't need many skills.. IMO they need MORE skills than most since they have 11 magic skills to buy.. granted the 3 alchemy ones might be not be very useful, but that still leaves 8 skills of real interest, just for being "magely". So 10 group skill points could go a long way to making you a great Mage out of the box.
On top of that.. I think Attributes are the best thing to have high at char gen since they are very expensive to raise later plus they add to many skills at once and help you survive. So I always prefer having A - Attributes whenever possible.
I don't think that every mage char has to have Magic A.. and I prefer not to for most writeups..
One thing I think makes a big difference is that we don't throw around Edge as much as others seem to, so I probably don't value it nearly as high as you do.
I also almost never try to write up an "optimal" character.
OTOH.. we really shouldn't be derailing this thread.. instead let's just say there is more than one way to write up a mage, depending on what you are trying to achieve..
Given that..
My suggestion to the OP.. is try to get an image in your mind of what KIND of mage you want to be. Are you a blow drek up type.. that likes to drop people when they look at you funny? Are you the subtle type that weaves magic to cover his teams sneaky doings? Are you a healer and support type? One easy way to get some ideas is look at the mentor spirits.. Pick something with a style that appeals to you.. Will you be a sneaky Rat? Or a bold Dragon? A healing Bear? Or a blood-thirsty Shark?
Are you a once-corporate mage.. or did you come up on the streets?
Another way I write-up chars very often is to start out with a name.. like.. Firefly.. has Levitation and Fire related spells.. specializes in Fire Spirits
Once you have a concept.. it's easier to figure out what character creation choices to make.
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Mages DON'T need too many magic skills. Spellcasting, summoning, counterspelling, a bit of assensing, a point of arcana and you're done.
Skills A is a waste of resources and opportunities general and it is a double waste for a mage because spells and spirits can do a lot.
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So the Magic C mage has 5 spells and a new spell after each run. The Magic A mage has 10 spells and a new spell after each run. With these assumptions:
1. MAG C will never catch up in terms of total spells. Of course there are diminishing returns to this point.
2. MAG C needs to spend karma on spells rounding out spell competency. MAG A provides a rounded enough spell list that one can safely beeline for initiation.
3. MAG C will be at a disadvantage, possibly a major disadvantage, all those runs in terms of versatility.
You will not convince me that 5 spells is enough. Especially if you're a pure magician and not a MysAd. On top of free skill points for skills you needed anyway.
Mages WANT to have a bunch of skills like everyone but only truly NEED so many. Assensing can be minimal as it's threshold, not opposed. Low Spellcasting and you're useless. Low Counterspelling and your team gets fragged. Low Summoning and you have piddly spirits. Binding is optional but with a CHA Mage you are giving up the best force multiplier in the game. Perception and the ability to shoot ok are good for everybody, and are opposed. This list includes needs and wants.
Arcana is more than safe to buy a point with karma. More than 1 isn't really necessary til you initiate a few times and you have plenty of runs to build up XP for that.
As to the group points...I'd put them in Stealth or perhaps Athletics. Stealth would be my first pick though.
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The most important thing to consider when it comes to picking a tradition is your character concept.
Second-tier considerations include the second drain stat (Int, Log, Cha) and the types of spirits available to you. Generally speaking, Int>Cha>>Log, so traditions like Druidism can be quite strong. Certain spirits are just really really good. Guardian, Man, Guidance, and Task all have a ton of potential. Other spirits can be really good, don't get me wrong, but these are usually my starting point when I think about a mage build. So a Vodou mage can be very strong (Cha, Guardian, Guidance, and Task) if you're comfortable with a possession tradition.
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If your building a pure mage you have to go magic A. It's your first priority. Thus Pure mage.
Magic A
Attributes B (Focus on Mental, determin if your Cha, Log, or Int, and max that, get a 5 will.)
Those 2 are easy.
Brings us to Meta, Skills and Cash.
On metatype you have 1 question, To Elf or Not to Elf? If your going Cha, to Elf is a logical choice, if not edge is your friend so I'd say meta D.
D meta (Human with 5 edge or elf.)
Which leaves skill and cash, from magic A your getting 10 skill. So skill E is possible, it just depends on how prepared to focus on purity of purpose you are. If all you wanna do is run Spellcasting and counterspelling, i'd go E. But if your looking for spirit summoning, and ascencing, and all that jazz then you want skill C.
More Cash leads to more foci. So i'd go with this.
Magic A
Attributes B
Cash C
meta D
Skills E
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build
A pure mage really needs at least the following:
Spellcasting
Counterspelling
Summoning
Perception
Assensing
You probably also need sneaking, and some skill with a gun.
You *can* do skills E, but its not really a good idea ...
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So the Magic C mage has 5 spells and a new spell after each run. The Magic A mage has 10 spells and a new spell after each run. With these assumptions:
1. MAG C will never catch up in terms of total spells. Of course there are diminishing returns to this point.
2. MAG C needs to spend karma on spells rounding out spell competency. MAG A provides a rounded enough spell list that one can safely beeline for initiation.
3. MAG C will be at a disadvantage, possibly a major disadvantage, all those runs in terms of versatility.
I still disagree since Mag C will have better skills and therefore better "versatility". It depends what type of versatility you mean.
But once again the OP didn't ask which is better.. Mag A or Mag C.. he asked for a "pure mage" build. I assume by that he means a build where you are a Mage and only a mage. Not also a face or a sammy. You can make that build in a variety of ways. We haven't even talked about a mage that has cyber-ware yet. :-)
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I still disagree since Mag C will have better skills and therefore better "versatility". It depends what type of versatility you mean.
But once again the OP didn't ask which is better.. Mag A or Mag C.. he asked for a "pure mage" build. I assume by that he means a build where you are a Mage and only a mage. Not also a face or a sammy. You can make that build in a variety of ways. We haven't even talked about a mage that has cyber-ware yet. :-)
Versatility through skills < versatility through spells.
In any case, a "pure mage" (which doesn't reasonably exist as you WILL want skills not tied to MAG, and if you have no secondary skills...I don't care how great of a caster you are, you're less useful and more likely to be geeked) would probably be Magic A, just to maximize magic-based options.
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I still disagree since Mag C will have better skills and therefore better "versatility". It depends what type of versatility you mean.
But once again the OP didn't ask which is better.. Mag A or Mag C.. he asked for a "pure mage" build. I assume by that he means a build where you are a Mage and only a mage. Not also a face or a sammy. You can make that build in a variety of ways. We haven't even talked about a mage that has cyber-ware yet. :-)
Versatility through skills < versatility through spells.
In any case, a "pure mage" (which doesn't reasonably exist as you WILL want skills not tied to MAG, and if you have no secondary skills...I don't care how great of a caster you are, you're less useful and more likely to be geeked) would probably be Magic A, just to maximize magic-based options.
I disagree with your opinion.
You believe that Magic A is the best pick for all mages. I do not.
I find it a little odd that you wrote in the other thread "It's not always advantageous to cast and it's often advantageous to not look like a mage. Sometimes you just need to fling lead." and that is exactly what I was advocating. So I think we are least in partial agreement. It seems to be a matter of degree.
As I said at the outset "Definitely depends what you want to do and the kind of game you run."
These are just opinions and options. Great thing about the char gen system. You have a lot of options.
Back once again to the OP's question asking for a "pure mage build". I gave one option. You gave another. He can decide what option he prefers.
But to reiterate to the original poster (if he is even reading this thread) it is best to try to form an idea of what the character is all about before delving into the details of a "build".
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build
A pure mage really needs at least the following:
Spellcasting
Counterspelling
Summoning
Perception
Assensing
You probably also need sneaking, and some skill with a gun.
You *can* do skills E, but its not really a good idea ...
Why not? I agree with your list of bare-bones mage skills, and they are very doable with skills: E (with Magic: A, this is effectively 28 points - and you can also spend some starting Karma on skills - which I tend to do with most builds that I take skils: E on).
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Pure Mage
A- Magic
B- attributes ( you should have max tradition attribute, soft max willpower, 3 or 5 body, 4 or 5 intuition)
C- meta ( 5 - 7 edge)
D- resources ( power foci 3, 4 or 5)
E- Skills
you may switch B and C depending if you choose elf. Edge does very nice things for mages.
You want at least power 3 or 4 at character creation, it makes a huge difference.
Focus concentration is also excellent for a pure mage build
A - Skills is a terrible idea, and should never be done, if your goal is pure mage.
B- Skills is also a terrible idea if you goal is to make a pure mage.
Seriously if you are only using 5 Spells, you are not doing something right.
At the very minimum you should have
indirect single target spells
AOE indirect spell
Combat sense
increase reflexes
improved invisibility
Levitate
heal
Incredibly useful spells that can be used almost every session : control thoughts, mind probe, trid phanstasm, physical mask, shape metal
incredibly powerful spells in certain situations : mana static, turn to goo, alter memory, detect ( life, enemies,) analyze device, fix
nice addition spells : fashion, sterilize, chaotic world,
And you don't need a gun. it's usually a terrible waste, because agility in one of the lower priority attributes, and honestly that's what the street sam is for. As mage you generally have better options anyway than firing a gun.
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And you don't need a gun. it's usually a terrible waste, because agility in one of the lower priority attributes, and honestly that's what the street sam is for. As mage you generally have better options anyway than firing a gun.
A gun is a nice fallback (if you run into horrible background count or something); you'll usually at least have a point or two for a specialty in automatics, so you can spray lead if you need to.
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Apparently ikarinokami, you have a very limited IMO view of what a (pure) mage is. IMO a pure mage is one that can astrally travel. That's it.
IMO you can be a pure mage and have 10 healing spells. We could argue if such a character is useful on a SR team, but that's a different story.
My main character.. a Rat Shaman had only one of the spells you listed and was very effective and well liked by our team since none of them could do magic at all. Rat by it's very nature eschews combat. Why would I take combat spells? I'm not a healer, so why would I take healing? And my Rat Shaman carries 3 pistols at all times although he almost never fires any of them. But he does have some pistol skill. Why? Because.. its in character. He comes from the streets, he grew up using guns before he ever learned Magic. And as zarak and Whiskeyjack said.. its s good fallback. I have a Roomsweeper for close encounters, A Browning for single shots, and a silenced pistol for sneak attacks.
Once again I refer to my early statement. It really depends on what your game is like.
In the games I play in, 5 in-concept spells are plenty to be a great character.
Having skills is never a "terrible idea" IMO and at our table always works well.
I think one should not confuse mini-maxing and/or optimizing with making a "viable", "playable" and "fun" character.
Nor should one confuse the type of game they themselves play in, with how all others play at their tables.
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Apparently ikarinokami, you have a very limited IMO view of what a (pure) mage is. IMO a pure mage is one that can astrally travel. That's it.
IMO you can be a pure mage and have 10 healing spells. We could argue if such a character is useful on a SR team, but that's a different story.
My main character.. a Rat Shaman had only one of the spells you listed and was very effective and well liked by our team since none of them could do magic at all. Rat by it's very nature eschews combat. Why would I take combat spells? I'm not a healer, so why would I take healing? And my Rat Shaman carries 3 pistols at all times although he almost never fires any of them. But he does have some pistol skill. Why? Because.. its in character. He comes from the streets, he grew up using guns before he ever learned Magic. And as zarak and Whiskeyjack said.. its s good fallback. I have a Roomsweeper for close encounters, A Browning for single shots, and a silenced pistol for sneak attacks.
Once again I refer to my early statement. It really depends on what your game is like.
In the games I play in, 5 in-concept spells are plenty to be a great character.
Having skills is never a "terrible idea" IMO and at our table always works well.
I think one should not confuse mini-maxing and/or optimizing with making a "viable", "playable" and "fun" character.
Nor should one confuse the type of game they themselves play in, with how all others play at their tables.
Why would any team ever hire a mage whose only ability is astral travel?
Your argument makes little sense.
Most of the spells I selected represent things that can only be done by magic, that's why you are mage. Combat spells because, area effect combat spells are way more powerful than any mundane since you get to add net hits, and -force to ap, why would you not use it? indirect combat spells, are very useful against high force spirits, which is one of the core responsibilities of the pure mage.
I didn't say having skills is a terrible idea, I said selecting priority "A" for skills is a terrible idea and it is, it's a horrendous opportunity cost for a mage, that cripples your ability to do magic( which includes drain, spell selection, edge, foci and reagents), and should never be done. The same hold true for "b" for skills, though admittedly to a much lesser extent . can you play Skills A or B as a mage, sure, but it is absolutely not the best pure mage, period, and it doesn't matter what kind of game it is, the numbers are the numbers and they don't change period.
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Why would any team ever hire a mage whose only ability is astral travel?
Your argument makes little sense.
I didn't say that. I said what IMO is the defining aspect of a "pure" mage is the ability to astral travel, not having 10 spells as opposed to 5, or Magic 6 as opposed to Magic 4. If you can't astral travel you are an adept, or a mystic adept, or an aspected mage, not a pure mage.
Most of the spells I selected represent things that can only be done by magic, that's why you are mage. Combat spells because, area effect combat spells are way more powerful than any mundane since you get to add net hits, and -force to ap, why would you not use it? indirect combat spells, are very useful against high force spirits, which is one of the core responsibilities of the pure mage.
It doesn't mean you have to have all those spells or any particular set of them. I don't argue that the spells you list aren't good choices, just not all necessary for any particular mage. As I said.. the reason to NOT use certain spells is because they don't fit the concept of the character.
I didn't say having skills is a terrible idea, I said selecting priority "A" for skills is a terrible idea and it is, it's a horrendous opportunity cost for a mage, that cripples your ability to do magic( which includes drain, spell selection, edge, foci and reagents), and should never be done. The same hold true for "b" for skills, though admittedly to a much lesser extent .
Saying it is a terrible idea doesn't make it so. And saying it "should never be done" doesn't make it true.
Not in all games.
can you play Skills A or B as a mage, sure, but it is absolutely not the best pure mage, period, and it doesn't matter what kind of game it is, the numbers are the numbers and they don't change period.
You are agreeing with me here that what you are talking about "optimization" and is no way goes to the classification of being a pure mage. What you are talking is what I would call "roll playing". I prefer to "role play".
I don't understand why this is difficult for people on these boards to understand. Squeezing out every little point and trying to mini-max / optimize a character is neither the goal nor necessary at our table. The goal is to have fun. Having more skills than spells is just as viable a choice as starting with Magic less than 6. Our game revolves around the players, not the other way around. And I assume that others might play this way as well.
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I don't understand why this is difficult for people on these boards to understand. Squeezing out every little point and trying to mini-max / optimize a character is neither the goal nor necessary at our table. The goal is to have fun. Having more skills than spells is just as viable a choice as starting with Magic less than 6. Our game revolves around the players, not the other way around. And I assume that others might play this way as well.
This is, effectively, the character optimization forum. People post here to create the strongest characters, mechanically speaking.
On that note, just because one wants to create the strongest mechanical concept doesn't mean that the goal isn't to have fun, or to not role-play. You're falling into the Stormwind Fallacy. Making your concept as strong as mechanically possible doesn't mean you're precluding good role-play, or having fun, or not trying to revolve around the player. In fact, I'd argue that most players find that having a build that can execute what they'd like to do is more fun than having a build that can't consistently do what they want to do. This holds is even more true in shadowrun - the mechanics of this game punish you quite severely for not optimizing to a certain extent (as opposed to something like DnD 5e, which is much more open to a wide variety of concepts).
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Zarzak, I find your post much more reasonable and I agree having a mechanically solid build doesn't preclude role-playing.
But that is really not the point of debate.
Back once again to the title of this thread: "Looking for a pure mage build"
Now the OP didn't define "pure mage build", and the opinion of some is that that means Mage A. I disagree. My opinion, which I think is better supported by the game rules is that a "pure mage" is defined by being able to Astrally Project.
Now. If you are a mage that can astrally project you have 3 choices of picks..A, B or C.
I do not agree that the only viable choice is Magic A for such a character and it is my opinion that some concepts and play at some tables is better served by B or C. My opinion is also that at some tables having more skills works as well (if not better) than more spells. So I don't believe that a character can be "mechanically optimal" for all tables, and certainly what spells to take would be changed by how the GM interprets rules and what situations your team finds itself in. Imagine an SR game underwater... wouldn't your choice of spells change? How about if there is another mage on the team? Wouldn't you want to have different spells than they have?
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Pure mage isn't defined by the system. It's defined by the players. When I do priority builds, I build based upon the presented concept. The concept present is pure mage. Not Combat Mage, Not Whiz Ganger, Not Harry potter wannabe, but pure mage. With such a short description there isn't a lot to go on. So I build from what is given, You can of course think differently, and there is nothing wrong with that. The majority of the our regular optimizers made the same leap of logic I did, which is hardly surprising. In the end the OP should pick the one that catches their interest.
This forums like many other operates with something of a SOP. This is really just general rules of thumb for good character creation, both in terms of mechanics and to a lesser degree RP/Story. Yes there are always times to break those rules for various reasons, but I think it is best to consider the whole situation and have a good reason to do so. The OP clearly is new to SR, and throwing up a rash of wildly variant builds isn't really doing the OP any favors. A couple similar builds with a few options helps him better understand the options more clearly. Which is why suggestion outlines my logic, that isn't to say other builds are bad, I think many of them are totally viable.
From my perspective Skills A is a trap many new players fall into, they see big numbers and they don't understand what they are losing to take it. Not everyone agrees with this, and that is as it should be. But the trap logic is why this forum tends to frown upon it. Mages with skill A tend to suffer from this even more, your not going to have enough of anything to do anything well if you go down that road. You cannot build a character that is strong every where. the more focused the more likely you are to achieve your goal. That doesn't mean you should dump stat everything that doesn't directly effect magic, but it does mean having a grasp on your limitation accepting them and determining how to use your strengths overcome, or avoid the problem areas
A mage can use spells to overcome many many weakness. Don't have stealth? Invisibility. Perception sucks? Extended Detect Enemy. Can't climb worth a damn? Levitate. Don't have the cash the latest haute couture? Fashion. So having the highest number of spells lets you cover the most ground. Make magic solve as many problems as possible. There are many things magic can do better than tech, healing being a prime example. So pure mage, with the most spells is going to mechanically the most likely to be the most effective and most versatile builds in the mage category. Experanced player can focus down their spell need very precisely, but folks new to the system need as many tools in the tool box as possible, and hopefully some of them will fit the job and their play-style.
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Marcus... like your post and agree with just about everything you said.
If you look at my original post you will see what I was offering as an option was:
A - Stats - 24
B - Skills - 36 / 5
C - Magic - Magic 3, 5 spells
D - Race - Human (3)
E - Resources - 6000 ny
I wouldn't consider this "wildly variant", but maybe these boards do. As you said the original poster wasn't specific at all so I was presenting another option. And I advocated that the OP be more specific about their characters background in order to decide how to make the character best. The post I made about Skills A was trying to compare what happens when you simply switch Magic A and Skills C, since that is a simpler comparison than my build. I don't necessarily advocate Skills A for a Mage. In fact I think it is not great for almost all characters. I much prefer A Attributes since Attributes add to many skills at once, help with survival and are the most expensive thing to add later. Hence the build I was offering.
This whole thread is filled with absolutes like:
You must have Magic A priority.
You must have 6 skill in all major magical skills.
You can't be a mage with less than 10 spells.
I agree with none of those. You will be a perfectly good mage at our table with 1 or 2 less points in a magic skill or a few less spells or even a Magic stat less than 6. But in any case, the OP has long fled the boards and my failed attempts to explain how other build options for characters work well at our table (and perhaps others) are now just another "Internet Arguement". ;D
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Your build is a perfectly reasonable build for an experienced player, my last mage, a whiz ganger, concept ran magic 5, and was setup very similarly to that. Absolutes are naturally absolutely wrong, but structure helps those who are new to system that can be as fluid as SR Magic. This is especially true in 5th, under RAW it's possible to have what basically amounts to 3 different versions of the same spell, between Spellcasting, Group Spellcasting, and Alchemy. So giving examples is the best way to guide, and avoid such issues.
I think the discussion got a little out of control, which is of course always a risk, and of course it is just another argument on the internet as you say. But I think there is benefit to the conversation, thus this post. What I am try to suggest is that as a board we should try to work together where possible to help a newbie like the OP. Which over all is exactly what we did, which is great, but something a little more cohesive would likely be more effective. The first two posts attempted to get more info out of the OP, then ZB put a solid build, and asked the OP to flush it. All of that seems like a solid beginning to me. Things begin to unfocused from there, I'll be the first to agree that neither of my posts did anything to fix the problem. But I'm hoping we can find a better way next time. To be clear I am not blaming anyone and you can't help everyone, but just something we can all consider
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So the Magic C mage has 5 spells and a new spell after each run. The Magic A mage has 10 spells and a new spell after each run. With these assumptions:
1. MAG C will never catch up in terms of total spells. Of course there are diminishing returns to this point.
2. MAG C needs to spend karma on spells rounding out spell competency. MAG A provides a rounded enough spell list that one can safely beeline for initiation.
3. MAG C will be at a disadvantage, possibly a major disadvantage, all those runs in terms of versatility.
You will not convince me that 5 spells is enough. Especially if you're a pure magician and not a MysAd. On top of free skill points for skills you needed anyway.
Mages WANT to have a bunch of skills like everyone but only truly NEED so many. Assensing can be minimal as it's threshold, not opposed. Low Spellcasting and you're useless. Low Counterspelling and your team gets fragged. Low Summoning and you have piddly spirits. Binding is optional but with a CHA Mage you are giving up the best force multiplier in the game. Perception and the ability to shoot ok are good for everybody, and are opposed. This list includes needs and wants.
Arcana is more than safe to buy a point with karma. More than 1 isn't really necessary til you initiate a few times and you have plenty of runs to build up XP for that.
As to the group points...I'd put them in Stealth or perhaps Athletics. Stealth would be my first pick though.
I will point out that there is a maximum number of spells you can get (12 at magic 6). I still feel that giving up 3 edge is a fair exchange for a lot more skill points. Like they say everything comes at a cost. The real goal should be what will make you have the most fun at the table
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At least we stopped short of a Nazi reference... oh damn I just referenced the Nazi reference.. does that count? ;D
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I still feel that giving up 3 edge is a fair exchange for a lot more skill points. Like they say everything comes at a cost.
It depends on how you use the skill points. Not all skills are created equal. Some are quite niche to borderline useless. This isn't the players' fault or even the GM's, but it is a consideration. Automatics and Perception are likely to be more relevant in more games, or even more game sessions, than Diving. Sure you might have one mission or one game session where Diving is relevant, but then you're allocating limited resources to a lower chance, and possibly no payoff ever.
I also don't believe in buying "fluff skills" or buy into notions that "everyone should have Computer 1" etc. I feel like too many people assert you need to either devote skill points or even make rolls for very common things that people do. Not everything needs a roll; I say the only time you should be rolling is where there is either a relevant time crunch or a meaningful chance of failure. You shouldn't need to roll to Google search a restaurant, nor should you need Computer to be able to do so without a roll at a baseline.
Anyway.
I assert that 3 EDG is usually going to be a better deal than niche skills, and probably more likely to save your life or pull off a long-shot action, but it also depends on what skills you're going to have at that point.
The real goal should be what will make you have the most fun at the table
True, that said, I don't play most RPGs in order to be weak and lacking much agency (Dark Heresy aside). I don't enjoy that play style (though if you do, more power to you). I'm approaching what I think is a good build from the perspective of my play style (as I think most people are approaching it from their play style) and, in the end, we all have different preferences. For me, it's not fun to be bad at my specialization, even if I'm not good at everything (which I don't expect to be). But if someone wants a pure mage build, I'm going to assume they want to be a super-effective mage, with no consideration to secondary skill-sets; that said, everyone, even pure mages, benefit from something like Perception 6.
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I still feel that giving up 3 edge is a fair exchange for a lot more skill points. Like they say everything comes at a cost.
It depends on how you use the skill points.
I agree with both of those statements.
Apparently I'm in an agreeable mood this morning. :)
I think it all comes down to character concept and table. My characters (both PC and NPC) are always built off some (usually odd) concept so the entire build is done with that in mind. I even write most of my PC origins down in a short story (like those in the source books). This helps me both write up the character and play them. I would probably take extra "fluff" skills over 3 edge in almost every circumstance because it would round out my character. However, I play in games with only a few players, so being versatile is more valuable than other tables where being a specialist is better. At those big tables everyone needs to have something they are better than everyone else at, while at a small table everyone could have the same skills and still shine.
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Asking for a "pure mage" build is kind of vague, but I interpret it as a mage without any hyphens (mage-face, mage-covert ops, etc.). So a pure mage would have nothing but magical skills, except for the basics any shadowrunner should have (perception, etiquette, sneaking, etc. at a lower rating than the core magical skills).
Mages resemble technomancers in one way - they have a lot of skills associated with them, but people who have used them in play tend to pare these skills down based on how useful they are. The low-skill builds tend to be the pared-down ones. They give you decent Attributes, high Edge, a magical focus, 10 spells, and high dice pools in the most important magical skills. Overbyte's build has even better Attributes, but low Edge (assuming all of the special Attribute points are spent to raise Magic to 6), 5 spells, and no foci. So at a cost of Edge and foci (and spells - although 25 Karma could close that gap), the build has better skills and Attributes. Even with 36/5 skills, though, you will still need to narrow down your magical skill choices, since there are 12 magical skills (3 skill groups and 3 stand-alone skills).
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I put the 5 skill group into either Sorcery or Conjuring, depending on what (if any) specializations I want to take.
E.g. - if I want the char to specialize in combat spell-casting I would put the 5 group in Conjuring and have a 6(8 ) Spellcasting (Combat).
Because of the low numbers of players its hard to imagine a build that is really "playable" that has E skill pick at our table, but I can certainly imagine it working at a large table where you have a very narrow responsibility. And I personally would never play a character with that little "depth" or actually I suppose it is "breadth". ;)
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Ironically I have a character I have been working on for my wife Who is close to a straight mage. Obviously some shifting of thins around but it should give you a starting point at least. Probably a little more face than you would want, but a few minor changes...
Charm
METATYPE: HUMAN
B 3, A 4, R 2, S 1, W 5, L 3, I 6, C 4, ESS 6, EDG 2, M 6
Condition Monitor (P/S): 10 / 11
Armor: 12
Limits: Physical 3, Mental 6, Social 7
Physical Initiative: 8+1D6
Astral Initiative: 12+3D6
Active Skills: Alchemy (Command +2) 6, Archery (Crossbows +2) 6, Assensing 6, Con (Seduction +2) 6, Influence Group 4, Perception 6, Sneaking (Urban +2) 6, Sorcery Group 6, Summoning 6
Knowledge Skills: "Fixers" (Seatle +2) 4, Magical Communities (Seatle +2) 4, Magical Theory 3, Street Gangs (Seatle +2) 4, Vice (Seatle +2) 4
Languages: English N, Or'Zet (Street +2) 4
Qualities: Chaos Magician, Day Job (2,500¥/month, 20 hrs/week), Distinctive Style: Provocative Dress, Focused Concentration (4), Incompetent: Firearms Group, Mentor Spirit: Chaos, School of Hard Knocks, SINner (National SIN): UCAS
Spells: Flamethrower, Increase Charisma, Magic Fingers, Physical Mask, Stunball, Trid Phantasm
Alchemical Preparations: Heal, Increase Reflexes, Mind Probe, Opium Den
Gear:
. . Armor Jacket
. . Backpack
. . Certified Credstick, Standard
. . Flashlight
. . Glasses (1) w/ Image Link
. . Meta Link Commlink w/ Mapsoft: Campaign City, Sim Module, Modified for Hot Sim
. . Metal Restraints x2
Weapons:
. . Heavy Crossbow [Crossbow, Acc 5, DV 10P, AP -3, 4 (m)] w/ (8x) Barbed Bolt, (4x) Bolt, (4x) Explosive Bolt, (4x) Hammerhead Bolt
. . Ranger Sliver Pistol Crossbow [Crossbow, Acc 6, DV 12S(e), AP -5, 1] w/ (5x) Stick-n-Shock Bolt w/Static Shaft
. . Survival Knife [Blade, Acc 5, DV 3P, AP -1]
Contacts:
Fixer (Connection 4, Loyalty 2)
Knight Errant Dispatcher (Connection 3, Loyalty 3)
Starting ¥: 3D6 × 60¥
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I put the 5 skill group into either Sorcery or Conjuring, depending on what (if any) specializations I want to take.
E.g. - if I want the char to specialize in combat spell-casting I would put the 5 group in Conjuring and have a 6(8) Spellcasting (Combat).
Because of the low numbers of players its hard to imagine a build that is really "playable" that has E skill pick at our table, but I can certainly imagine it working at a large table where you have a very narrow responsibility. And I personally would never play a character with that little "depth" or actually I suppose it is "breadth". ;)
Skill: E builds can summon spirits for a variety of purposes, have 10 spells that can do a wide variety of functions, can scan auras and scout astrally, and can block incoming hostile spells. And they can have some basic functionality outside of their specialty. Of course, my own Skill: E builds have the 10 bonus skill points from Magic: A, and I also usually spend a decent amount of Karma on additional skills.