Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Senko on <06-17-15/0241:11>
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I've finally been convinced my personal preference for a pistol for my mage/face (nice concealable and not out of place) just isn't going to work due to their low dice pools and I need to just spray the room when not casting spells. I'm thinking since I'm going to be stuck lugging a big awkward gun around I should go with the FN-Har although the SCK-100 is somewhat tempting its stats are significantly worse. So I ask one last time as a mage/face with low dice pools (3 agility, 2 weapon with spec for a total of 7 dice) should I buy the FN Har?
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No.
Buy an AK with laser sight and liberally use suppressive fire. It's a cheap and efficient way to contribute to combat without you needing a high dicepool.
If you have to, you can just toss the gun and get a new one.
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So still an assault rifle then, I see your point about the AK it seems to have the same stats for about 600 yen less odd.
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(You can recklessly cast an utility spell and pull the trigger once in the same action phase)
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The FN HAR and AK have the same basic stats, yes, but the FN comes with an integral laser sight and Gas Vent 2. These are good things to have, especially since you'll be using full auto to compensate for your lower dice pool a lot.
This only matters for "ordinary" attacks - like Jack says, surpressive fire is a nice option that doesn't need recoil compensation. But at some time you do want to actually shoot at people, so getting some recoil compensation (by, for example, Gas Vents) is a good diea. Of course, you can mod the AK to have those as well - but then you end up at about the same price point.
Assault Rifles are simply better weapons, but if you, as a mage, want a more concealable option, Machine Pistols (and, to a lesser extent, SMGs) offer that in a nice compact option, while keeping the spray-and-pray advantage. You'll do a lot less damage, of course.
Better yet, get both. The FN HAR (or AK if you go that way, or Ares Alpha if you want to risk it - it's functionally similar enough) can be your hard hitter when you're out in the field and need some non-magical firepower, with the MP/SMG as your concealed firearm in more civilized places.
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Actually, if you mod the AK exactly the same as the FN-HAR out of the box the AK is still cheaper and has more ammo(iirc!).
The best trade between accuracy and recoil is probably Full Auto simple action for 6 shots
As a weak mage you should therefore invest in: Shock pad (1), Gas Vent III (3), Foregrip (1) and a Laser Sight
If you aim and have wireless on you gain 7 dice Acc 6 and reduce the enemy's defense by 5, all without building up more recoil than you can absorb.
I would stay away from MPs: Their damage is to low to be worth the complex or simple action. You are a mage. Learn to cast a stunball instead.
I advocate suppressive fire because it helps your team mates who know how to use their guns and hinders your opponents shooting at you.
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The only issue with suppressive fire is that someone with a low dice pool using it as their offensive action will be unlikely to generate many hits which means opponents can more easily escape the damaging effects, and the attacker has to remain still for the whole duration of the attack. The fact that you are imposing a negative dice pool penalty to all actions for people in the affected area is significant, however, as it is in essence the effect of a chaotic world spell without the drain.
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Mix it up with payload ammo full of pepperpunch. That should get their attention...
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I don't have increase Agility to many other spells I need more e.g. Increase reflexes and carrying a machine pistol doesn't really feel more civilised to me so it's either a proper pistol or the best heavy weapon u can get.
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Actually, if you mod the AK exactly the same as the FN-HAR out of the box the AK is still cheaper and has more ammo(iirc!).
Yes, but it's close, and you have 2 mod slots free on the FN-HAR for other stuff. (Of course, that may not matter depending on your modding needs).
The best trade between accuracy and recoil is probably Full Auto simple action for 6 shots
As a weak mage you should therefore invest in: Shock pad (1), Gas Vent III (3), Foregrip (1) and a Laser Sight
If you aim and have wireless on you gain 7 dice Acc 6 and reduce the enemy's defense by 5, all without building up more recoil than you can absorb.
3 Agi + 2 skill + 2 spec + 1 laser + 1 aim gives 9 dice, actually. The weapon's RC is 4, with at least 1 from STR and 1 baseline on top, so that's all compensated.
I would stay away from MPs: Their damage is to low to be worth the complex or simple action. You are a mage. Learn to cast a stunball instead.
I advocate suppressive fire because it helps your team mates who know how to use their guns and hinders your opponents shooting at you.
MP's can still do suppressive fire, and they can do more damage than mid-Force spells. Not that Stunball isn't bad to learn (or other AoE's), but MP's aren't useless.
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Good luck finding MPs with enough ammo capacity.
6P without AP is just not good enough against most opponents (Body 3 Armor Jacket 12 Helmet 2 =17dice)
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Actually, if you mod the AK exactly the same as the FN-HAR out of the box the AK is still cheaper and has more ammo(iirc!).
Yes, but it's close, and you have 2 mod slots free on the FN-HAR for other stuff. (Of course, that may not matter depending on your modding needs).
The best trade between accuracy and recoil is probably Full Auto simple action for 6 shots
As a weak mage you should therefore invest in: Shock pad (1), Gas Vent III (3), Foregrip (1) and a Laser Sight
If you aim and have wireless on you gain 7 dice Acc 6 and reduce the enemy's defense by 5, all without building up more recoil than you can absorb.
3 Agi + 2 skill + 2 spec + 1 laser + 1 aim gives 9 dice, actually. The weapon's RC is 4, with at least 1 from STR and 1 baseline on top, so that's all compensated.
I would stay away from MPs: Their damage is to low to be worth the complex or simple action. You are a mage. Learn to cast a stunball instead.
I advocate suppressive fire because it helps your team mates who know how to use their guns and hinders your opponents shooting at you.
MP's can still do suppressive fire, and they can do more damage than mid-Force spells. Not that Stunball isn't bad to learn (or other AoE's), but MP's aren't useless.
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unless im totally thinking wrong, Laser sights dont add dice. emphasis mine.
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The wireless bonus for a Laser Sight is +1 to your dice pool, just like a (non-implanted) smart link. Doesn't stack with smartlink. And the accuracy bonus is smaller, and you don't get all the side perks of a smartlink. But yeah, you can still get a dice pool bonus.
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Alternately if you've got at least a little bit of strength get a folding stock SMG and a silencer.
Invisibility + silenced 3-round bursts should give a half decent chance of hitting and dealing damage while keeping yourself relatively save from counter attack while they try and work out where the shooting is coming from (you are using caseless ammo right and not giving away your position with the sound of falling brass?) If you're still worried about actually getting a bullet to hit, hold your action until others have fired then then take advantage of successive attacks ont he same target.
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get a Colt M23 that way you can supress twice
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A Savalette Guardian firing 6 round burst is as good as most SMGs and it's still a pistol and more concealable.
You can get a carry permit for it and be fully legal.
Use APDS and you'll get through most medium armor.
With your pistol skill you can also use a Remington Roomsweeper.
Set it to wide choke and fire a semi-auto 3 round burst and you'll hit most things.
You're only concern will be armored opponents.
If you are concerned about missing with your low dice pool switch it out to longarms and grab an auto-shotgun with flechette and a wide choke setting.
You'll almost certainly hit, the problem will be armored opponents.
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You could also get a dobberman drone with an assault rifle (that you can get a fake licence for, such as AK-47 or FN HAR) and enough ammo for 12 turns of sustained suppressive fire. You don't even need to invest into gunnery or remain stationary; just instruct the autopilot with a simple action and let it act on its own. Using it's own initiative and skill while you sling spells...
(Normally weapon mounts are illegal, but this drone is just restricted and come with a built in mount....)
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My suggestion would be go machine pistol and select the Remington Suppressor from Gun H(e)aven 3, page 9.
Accuracy 6; Damage 7P; AP -1; Mode SA/BF; RC -; Ammo 15(c); Availability: 6R; Cost ¥700
Standard Accessories/Modifications: Sound Suppressor
Suggested Accessories/Modifications: Personalized Grip (¥100), External Smartlink (¥200)
You boost the accuracy to 9 with this. Then take Automatics 6 (Machine Pistols +2), combined with an average agility of 3, and non-implant wireless smartlink bonus of 1 you have a dice pool of 12 to shoot things. This option offers a decent combination of damage potential and concealability over the assault rifle, while still allowing that option when subtlety is no longer needed. As always, consider your ammunition options as well. The real trick is how many non-magical skills do you want to devote points and Karma to? Automatics is versatile with MP, SMG, and AR offering three distinct responses through one skill; it's really kind of the "Swiss army" skill of the firearms group. Pistols offers limited range, and doesn't include MP, and Longarms lacks small, close range options (unless you consider the sawed-off T-250). For anyone not predominantly a shooty-type of character I think Automatics is probably the best choice. It has worked great for my Decker so far, though he sprung for an internal smartlink with improved rangefinder and uses an implanted Smartlink for +2 Dice Wireless.
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For characters with a smallish dice pool I prefer shotguns myself. Flechette ammo with a wide choke setting and a 3 - 6 round burst and who's got the crappy dice pool now! Against armored targets not so good but great against the average mook.
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For characters with a smallish dice pool I prefer shotguns myself. Flechette ammo with a wide choke setting and a 3 - 6 round burst and who's got the crappy dice pool now! Against armored targets not so good but great against the average mook.
if you grab an assault shotgun you can do the special flechette burst from Run and Gun too. practically undodgeable. Mossberg CMDT auto shotgun is cheap enough to do it and i think the auto-assault 16 is FA capable off the top of my head
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After being gone a while, I am back..
Remington Suppressor is an awesome machine pistol. Only issue is lack of full auto, so I can't suppress anyone. But it is a reliable alternative to many heavy pistols and cheaper too.
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Hmmm shotguns with flechette I could work with and it feels a lot more comfortable to me from a character perspective too. Now if I go that route which shotgun should I get . . . maybe the autoassault with a few mods.
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Only issue is lack of full auto, so I can't suppress anyone.
Use Run & Gun rules to figure out the smaller suppression zone of burst fire.
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Novocrane
Where are you getting suppression with burst fire from? Enhanced Suppression and Flechette Suppressive Fire both reference the Full Auto Suppressive Fire rules as far as I can tell.
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If you want to keep with the pistol look and feel, go with an Ares Crusader II. It's got decient damage and built in recoil and can fire two full suppresion bursts before a reload. If you're set on ARs, stick with a Colt M23 and get it modded to hell and back. If you don't care about F level legality, the Alpha Combat Gun is a hell of a choice as is the FN P93 (though more compact).
I'll also double the suggestion of shotguns!
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Moonshine Fox
The Ares Crusader II is SA/BF only.
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Slot it! I missed that. Now I have to change a character idea ;D
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If you want to keep with the pistol look and feel, go with an Ares Crusader II. It's got decient damage and built in recoil and can fire two full suppresion bursts before a reload. If you're set on ARs, stick with a Colt M23 and get it modded to hell and back. If you don't care about F level legality, the Alpha Combat Gun is a hell of a choice as is the FN P93 (though more compact).
I'll also double the suggestion of shotguns!
I originally had shotguns switched to pistols for believeability and then got told to go AR. I'd prefer shotguns over AR's well longarms really.
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Full Auto
Suppressive Fire
Indulge me for a moment; where does it connect those two in the core book?
Any way, the rules for using less than twenty bullets in suppressive fire are on p180 core.
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Novocrane
Danke. I always just assumed one had to have a Full Auto weapon to perform suppressive fire with. Colour me pleasantly surprised :)
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Suppressive fire takes a Complex Action, uses twenty rounds of ammo, and ignores recoil. Though it may appear as a “spray and pray” technique it is in fact a combination of controlled and fully automatic bursts focused over a narrow area and directed at anything that moves.
its pretty much assumed you need a weapon capable of Full Auto
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Wow, I never noticed that either. That's quite bad.
Mind you, the only fire modes listed for weapons are SS/SA/BF/FA. Full-Auto fire is listed seperately and restricted to Full-Auto weapons, but that's the only complex fire mode that links itself to a 'simple' fire mode. That means that supressive fire isn't linked to any fire type (or weapon), but neither are S-A burst and Long Burst. By the exact same argument, you can do a Long Burst with a Single Shot weapon (which is obviously not intended).
The link is sort of hinted to in the text, but never actually stated (just as with Supressive Fire).
[Edit] Actually, SA Burst does specifically state it's an option for SA weapons: "Semi-Automatic weapons can fire a burst of three rounds with a Complex Action."
Long Burst hints to it like Suppressive does, but doesn't actually say it.
(Mind you, if you try to abuse that in an actual game, you should be booked).
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Course if you have the armorer skill and want to mod your gun for Full Auto I think you should be able to, I mean you can make semi auto fire full auto irl
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There are a few options if you want to hit more than one target with a single firearm.
SS; N/A
SA: Weapon automatically fire 1 bullet each time you pull the trigger. Pull the trigger three times. Can be used against three different enemy targets that need to be within short or medium range (aim at the first target, fire a round, aim at the second target, fire again and aim at a third target and pull the trigger a third time) by spending a complex action, a free action and splitting the pool three times. Need a weapon skill of 5+ to do it. Mind the effects of recoil.
BF: Weapon automatically fire 3 bullets each time you pull the trigger. Pull the the trigger twice. Can be used against two different enemy targets that need to be within short or medium range (aim at one target, pull the trigger, aim at the second target and pull the trigger again) by spending both a complex action, a free action and splitting the pool twice. Need a weapon skill of 3+ to do it. Mind the effects of recoil.
FA: Weapon automatically fire bullets as long as you squeeze the trigger. Use a combination of controlled and fully automatic bursts focused over a narrow area and directed at anything that moves. Frontal cone area of effect attack that hit both friend and foe. Last entire combat turn or until you move or take any other action.
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I'd also draw everyone's attention to the Firing Mode Table.
Note how the Mode column is listed (emphasis mine):
Single-Shot (SS)
Semi-Automatic (SA)
Semi-Automatic Burst (SB)
Burst Fire (BF)
Long Burst (LB) or Full Auto (FA) (Simple)
Full Auto (FA) (Complex)
Suppressive Fire
Suppressive Fire explicitly does not list a mode (SS/SA/SB/BF/LB/FA). If it was intended that Suppressive Fire was only possible with FA weapons, I would have expected it to be listed as Suppressive Fire (FA). Pair that with the specific rules for Suppressive Fire with less than 20 rounds, and I'd say there's a solid case to be made for Suppressive Fire with any weapon. Of course, an SS weapon isn't going to be able to suppress anything, but a Burst Fire weapon firing a long burst (6 rounds) could suppress an area 4 meters wide, perfect for hallways and the like.
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A weapon in BF mode will automatically spit out 3 bullets within less than 0.2 seconds each time you press the trigger. All three bullets each time you press the trigger will land pretty close to each other.
In SR5 a Long Burst is when you press the trigger twice. You get a "burst" of 3 bullets first time you tap the trigger and then another "burst" of 3 bullets the second time you tap the trigger.
I don't have access to run n gun but i doubt it is phrased in a way to allow you to use semi automatic mode or burst fire mode as a frontal cone area of effect attack. To spay n pray a frontal cone area you kinda need a weapon with a full automatic firing mode (squeeze the trigger while you move your weapon sideways... spraying bullets over a frontal cone area).
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Xenon
I'd agree with you if Suppressive Fire was described as spray and pray. It isn't, and there's mention of both burst fire and controlled fully automatic fire in the suppressive fire description, as well as rules for suppressive fire with less than 20 bullets. This seems pretty clear cut to me from a rules perspective.
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I don't have access to run n gun but i doubt it is phrased in a way [...]
I was mistaken on Enhanced Suppression or Flechette Suppressive Fire saying anything but 'for use with Suppressive Fire'. The only possibly relevant information is on p180 of the core book, under the 'Not Enough Bullets' side bar.
All three bullets each time you press the trigger will land pretty close to each other.
But far enough apart that they give a penalty to dodge, rather than a bonus to DV, hmm? R&G does offer that, at least.
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After being gone a while, I am back..
Remington Suppressor is an awesome machine pistol. Only issue is lack of full auto, so I can't suppress anyone. But it is a reliable alternative to many heavy pistols and cheaper too.
Fair. It's a good option for a character when "shooting" is a secondary concern, though, and is comparable to the Colt 2066 in many regards.
My 'decker eventually went with the Ak-97, rather than the M-23 for his big gun. Costs a little more, a few rounds light of two full suppression actions, but it hits harder, punches through armor better when you hit something/someone, "and it makes a distinctive sound when fired at you, so remember it."
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You can use Suppressive Fire twice with the AK-97. The second usage will just have the suppressed area reduced by 1m, as per the sidebar on page 180.
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Based on the explaination on suppressive fire if you have 3 combat turns per combat round and all you did was long bursts in a cone area then ya I would let it slide that you can suppress using only BF weapons provided you have the 20 rounds of ammo
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Rooks
You don't need 20 rounds of ammo unless you want to suppress the full 10m at the end of the cone. The sidebar "Not enough bullets" on page 180 states this rather clearly.
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Good luck finding MPs with enough ammo capacity.
6P without AP is just not good enough against most opponents (Body 3 Armor Jacket 12 Helmet 2 =17dice)
Remington Suppressor 7P -1 AP..... just saying.
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Good weapon, but lacks FA capability and the magazine is also not really that big.
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Remington Suppressor is one of the best machine pistols on the market due to it's base 7P DV and unique -1 AP, but it's SA/FA only at has a magazine capacity of only 15 rounds. It's a great weapon, but it's not a replacement for something like the full auto Steyr TMP if that's an important deciding factor.