Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Triskavanski on <06-18-15/2029:50>
-
I mean, you vs unagumented dudes. Yay! You win in speed.. But this is shadowrun. Everyone but technomancers tends to have some way to augment themselves up a bit more on initiative without hurting themselves.
If you run your stuff on silent, it takes at least Three IPs before you can do anything, cause everything on the matrix is basically a complex form.
First you have to use a Matrix perception check to start up the 20 questions to see silent icons around you in 100m. Hopefully you ask all the right questions and narrow down the group so you don't have to d o this anymore.
Then you have to make a perception check to properly see the hidden Icon, and hope you beat their logic+sleeze.
Finally you've got to actually roll to do something. Of course you can only brute force, hack on the fly, or data spike at the moment if you're a non-technomancer.
Meanwhile in the meatworld, everyone else has managed to pull out their guns and shoot a bullet on the first pass, Then on the second pass unleash a torrent of bullets, and finally finish everything off with a anti-tank rifle.
-
As much as I completely agree with you. But there was quite a lot of people complaining about how fast the Matrix was when SR5 first launched, because everyone feared the damn decker to be able to actually contribute to fights in a meaningful way in a short period of time. As appose to SR4's paradigm where a hacker is 100% useless in time sensitive matters and cybercombat was completely pointless.
I just don't think people were ready for hacking being meaningful and be able to contribute to the game when SR5 first launched.
-
Please go back and read 3e (or even 2e!!) Matrix rules.
Compared to those, 5e is blistering fast in terms of mechanics.
Back in 2e (less so in 3e) to get the Decker to unlock a single door was a 20 minute mini game of JUST the Decker and GM rolling dice just to get a
"Ok, the door is unlocked" response from the GM.
-
It doesn't really matter what was in 3rd or 2nd, as they have no standing on how fast the matrix is in 5th. They didn't even have wireless, or the idea of wireless bonuses specifically to allow combat decking.
Speaking of wireless.. isn't turning off a devices wireless function a free action with DNI?
So someone with something like Perfect timing could turn his devices wireless on, use it, and turn it back off.
-
As much as I completely agree with you. But there was quite a lot of people complaining about how fast the Matrix was when SR5 first launched, because everyone feared the damn decker to be able to actually contribute to fights in a meaningful way in a short period of time. As appose to SR4's paradigm where a hacker is 100% useless in time sensitive matters and cybercombat was completely pointless.
I just don't think people were ready for hacking being meaningful and be able to contribute to the game when SR5 first launched.
My hackers in SR4 contributed in a meaningful way in fights all the time. They shot back! What good is it taking a combat turn to get a MARK before you can do something when you can shoot the person instead and have good odds of killing them just as quickly? In most games I was in, if combat took more than one or two turns (typically one) we were doing something wrong.
-
As much as I completely agree with you. But there was quite a lot of people complaining about how fast the Matrix was when SR5 first launched, because everyone feared the damn decker to be able to actually contribute to fights in a meaningful way in a short period of time. As appose to SR4's paradigm where a hacker is 100% useless in time sensitive matters and cybercombat was completely pointless.
I just don't think people were ready for hacking being meaningful and be able to contribute to the game when SR5 first launched.
My hackers in SR4 contributed in a meaningful way in fights all the time. They shot back! What good is it taking a combat turn to get a MARK before you can do something when you can shoot the person instead and have good odds of killing them just as quickly? In most games I was in, if combat took more than one or two turns (typically one) we were doing something wrong.
Because its thematic to have a hacker solve their problems, like a gun fight, with hacking.
-
There is a reason the term "combat Decker" exists, though. And deckers may not be good at surprise situations, but Gove them 30 seconds of full VR prep and they can make someone's day very, very bad.
That being said, I don't think it a fair to expect deckers to contribute to physical combat in the same way a street samurai does. Either the Decker picks up a weapon and fights alongside the samurai, or he does what he does best; manipulate the Matrix while the samurai takes care of the fighting.
Just like you wouldn't expect a face to be a full on samurai, the Decker has his place to shine; the Matrix. Further bridging the Matrix with meatworld pacing is not something I would consider a good idea. As it is, deckers have plenty of ways to contribute in combat without being full samurai, and I'm quite happy with that personally.
-
Some of the new qualities in Data Trails helps out. Go Big or Go Home actually makes placing multiple marks an interesting prospect... taking -6 to toss on 3 marks at the same time speeds up a lot of the core hacking interactions.
-
Deckers might have plenty of ways, Technomancers not so much. Same kinda for riggers actually, as at least one IP per combat round for a Rigger is used to not make drone/vehical find the nearest solid surface.
But in all honesty, Does a team really even need a decker or technomancer?
Go big/Go home still doesn't let you bypass the first 3 rounds of doing nothing against a silent running dude.
-
Shoot them in the head?
Not really sure that a hacker in AR should be able to hack at the speed of typical combat... hell trust me, even in Hot Sim it's a struggle to stay at that pace.
I think it's less a case of how slow Matrix is, as how FAST combat is.
-
Combat would be a heck of a lot slower if you had to spend a complex action to look out your eye holes to see people. another to lock in on one, and then be able to shoot for a little bit of dmg.
-
Yeah but on the other hand people in VR can be crazy fast and now with Data Trails can easily hit 5D6 initiative dice in Hot Sim.
it comes down to what's more effective? Shooting the guy or hacking his gear? Don't get me wrong I see what your saying... but the realm of the hacker tends to be hosts and VR matrix work... combat is the realm of the adept and samurai.
-
combat is the realm of the adept and samurai.
Completely agreed. Hackers, faces, riggers, and even magicians have their time to shine, but physical combat is the primary focus of adepts and samurai.
That's not to say there can't be secondary roles or some degree of overlap, but I wouldn't expect a hacker to be a primary combatant, physical or matrix wise.
-
Yeah but on the other hand people in VR can be crazy fast and now with Data Trails can easily hit 5D6 initiative dice in Hot Sim.
In hot sim VR you get 4d6 dice without that data trails item. +1d6 isn't something that makes you really all that much faster.
An adept with 3 ranks of Improved reflexes can Achieve 4d6 dice at all times, adding 3 more points to his reaction stat.
A Mage who gets the improved reflexes spell, could fairly easily use it to give him +x +xd6 more initiative, Regularly this is likely to give him +1~2d6 extra dice, but with enough ranks in his spell casting, could probably rank up to getting +5d6
Street Sams can buy Wired reflexes, to get 4d6 dice. Then they can buy more reaction enhancers to get a total reaction above +4
So everyone (But technomancers) has the ability to get the normal Hotsim VR level of initiative. All of their actions are less action costy, having a lot of free and simple actions, and a handful of complex actions. Adepts enjoy the benefits of making it so more actions are free actions. And with Perfect timing, we can increase the number of our free actions by 1.
it comes down to what's more effective? Shooting the guy or hacking his gear? Don't get me wrong I see what your saying... but the realm of the hacker tends to be hosts and VR matrix work... combat is the realm of the adept and samurai.
What should be more effective is having the hackers have the ability to back up his crew in more ways than what his adept and samurai buddy are doing. Cause Physical Combat is the Sam/Adept/Mages world while CyberCombat should be the Decker/Technomancer.
However, with as slow as the matrix work is, (Since its not really at all faster than other runners who are in meat land, and everything takes so many complex actions to do) honestly, I don't see why a team would need a hacker PC in the first place.
-
A Technomancers can get the same initiative boost a magician can if the technomancer has a magician teammate who, in exchange for keeping team comms secure and operational, cast the same spell on the technomancer. This is a team game, after all.
-
Yes, its a team game. But then you're getting a Mage without an initiative boost or a mage taking penalties for sustaining his boost and the technomancer's boost.
And I'm not really certain how a Technomancer can keep the comlinks safe and secure and operational. And the reason I say that, isn't because I'm unaware of the erase mark action, but because the Technomancer wouldn't be able to protect other peoples commlinks, with a pan. Not just because of the limitations of being able to only form a pan with a device, and somethings I've seen floating that might be true where you have to be the owner of all devices on your pan, and not just invited to pan up, (Which honestly, if it thats true, P-Tacs don't really work well I think) but because of again how slow doing things on the matrix is and that the people forming their personas on a commlink create weak points in a Pan.
If an enemy hacker is any good at all they'll be using Hack on the Fly over anything else. And if they their get hits in, you can't see them. Even if you get the matrix perception check on each commlink of your groups, by the time you notice them, they're already a few steps ahead of you.
Its actually faster just to turn the wireless off at that point, or reboot the device.
Running a device on silent, at bare minimum, increases the amount of time for a hacker to do anything to your gear by two rounds. And if you start getting hacked, flip your wireless off as a free action. You'll beat any hacker that way pretty much.
-
This.. This is why I so wanted Matrix Perception to be a Simple Action like I thought Data Trails had changed it to. That would have allowed the Decker/TM to Simple for 20 questions, Simple to pick out the hidden icons, then next pass Mark em or Spike em. At my table we have only on the very rare occasion have a combat go beyond 2 Combat Turns.
-
This.. This is why I so wanted Matrix Perception to be a Simple Action like I thought Data Trails had changed it to. That would have allowed the Decker/TM to Simple for 20 questions, Simple to pick out the hidden icons, then next pass Mark em or Spike em. At my table we have only on the very rare occasion have a combat go beyond 2 Combat Turns.
Glad to see I'm not the only one who frequently sees fast fights.
Because its thematic to have a hacker solve their problems, like a gun fight, with hacking.
Like that ork woman on page 34? Bet she could've put a few rounds of SnS in that Lone Star officer in the time it took her to eject his rifle's magazine, or catch a few slugs of her own center mass while MARKing him.
-
This is why I advocate that mesh reality should be default for everyone. It gives hackers at least 1IP of meat initiative and about 2 or 3 passes in the Matrix. It allows the hacker to run around and keep up with the rest of the team while having enough passes to hack things that need to be hacked. No more stop to have the hacker go full VR and babysit them for 3 or more passes to open a door. Since the hacker would always be running in VR, they'd be able to run down halls and hack open doors. They'd be able to take cover and hack the lights off. etc. As opposed to how it works now, where the hacker gets 1 IP of meat, and has to waste it all to take cover or run or other meat action and followed by no hacking.
-
I feel its less about the IPs as much as its about how long the actions take.
The problem is it can't go too fast, but as is, its too slow.
-
I feel its less about the IPs as much as its about how long the actions take.
The problem is it can't go too fast, but as is, its too slow.
So.. the combat rules outright state that you can not take more than one attack action at a time. In return there are many attack actions that are simple actions (granted, those are usually gun based attacks.. but spellcasters have the option of reckless casting to make it a simple action also). Why are Matrix Attacks a complex action if you can't make more than one attack action at a time?
Make Matrix Perception a Simple Action (just like a meatspace perception check is) and make Data Spike, Brute Force and Hack on the Fly a Simple action with the exception tag of no more then once per pass. You still run into having to do the silly 20 questions/find the hidden icon full pass double simple action THEN you can try to slap the opposing force around with a Data Spike, but at least this way you know where everything is on the first pass then from there you can attack as needed.
-
I feel its less about the IPs as much as its about how long the actions take.
The problem is it can't go too fast, but as is, its too slow.
There's a reason why the Decker with a Gunarm is a gimmick... it works. Firing a submachine gun is very useful in combat... but if you are having issues about how limited and Action Hogging the Matrix Perception tests, I do have a recommendation. Get a good commlink & put in a Program Module with Virtual Machine or just a high Rated Agent on it. You can have the Agent manifest his persona on the Commlink and he would get full VR speeds while searching while you are running with the team in AR. Anything he can't find after the silent running perception test HAS to be a decker with Sleaze, your Agent will easily find everyone else. Everything else can be done by the Agent in the 1st Combat Turn (including Marks if you have a Sleaze Dongle) so you can be the Hero and drop the Hammer in the next Turn. If you delayed your Actions you might be able to do it at the end of the first Combat Turn or you could have been shooting a submachine with your Gunarm, Options!
-
Or heck, just have decent Agent and have it looking for stuff in VR while you're working in meat space, once it finds stuff start working in AR.
-
As a Technomancer you wouldn't be able to get the agent. And even then, you'd still have to make the perception checks. Granted, the Agent might be able to alert you to the one.
But the main thing with finding hidden icons isn't that you can only find icons within 100m and you have to check each one randomly, but rather if your question is "Silent icons within 100m." and you get a bunch of them, and do not narrow down the field, then yes, you'd have to search through all of them one by one randomly.
The real way of speeding up the thing is making sure you've got good questions.
All icons within 100m is generally a good one to start with. Its flawed in the assumption however that what you want to hack is within 100m if you can't see it.
All persona - You will never see an enemy hacker without one.
Asking for what icons are running silent as this point is pointless, as the persona within 100m that you didn't see would be.
Icons that have asdf. A deck would have all four,
Using that you should be able to narrow down which icon matches all of those criteria. But you're still running three rounds.
Page 176
Hacking During Combat: Make certain that the scenario includes areas that hacking can directly
affect. If the team is squaring off against security and a call for reinforcements goes out, the hacker may be able to delay the message or possibly reroute it. Hackers can seal entrances, jam monitoring equipment, open locks, and disrupt communications.
• Bricking: A hacker with enough skill can brick enemy gear, tap into their commlinks, and generally make their lives miserable.
-
Decker gets an Agent program and uses that to scan the matrix for hidden icons.
Technomancer gets a sprite and uses that to scan the matrix for hidden icons.
-
Commanding the sprite to use a matrix action takes a simple action to do for each task, and quickly depletes the sprite.
And I'm not too sure that because a sprite sees it, you see it.
-
Commanding the sprite to use a matrix action takes a simple action to do for each task, and quickly depletes the sprite.
And I'm not too sure that because a sprite sees it, you see it.
"Help me out in this fight by looking for hidden icons and inform me of them."
just like with spirits its in how you word things that determines if you burn through services or get effective use.
-
Commanding the sprite to use a matrix action takes a simple action to do for each task, and quickly depletes the sprite.
And I'm not too sure that because a sprite sees it, you see it.
Given that a Sprite has the Compiler as the owner, has your Resonance Signature and if anyone does a Trace on it they get the Compiler instead, you also have a full mental link with said sprite (text, images, words etc), I'd say yes. You are fully aware of what the sprites sees.
-
With that ruling, characters running around with that data anomaly trait, it would be good to be a technomancer. You get to jump in line.
Now if I could just convince my GMs to let there be a few guys running silent that I can see anyways.
-
SR5 does a very good job at keeping all players busy and everyone get to contribute in some way.
In earlier editions a street sam would act multiple times before the face got to act even once (combat would almost be over before the face got to fire once).
In this edition everyone get to act at least once even during the first combat phase (high initiative is back loaded rather than front loaded).
In earlier editions a matrix run was so cumbersome that you never used a player decker.
...and if you did you could basically send all the other players out for pizza break while the GM and the decker resolved stuff(!)
In this edition matrix rules are very streamlined, use very similar rules to meat world and are very fast to resolve.
For example opening a door:
Your B&E expert would take a Locksmith + Agility [Physical] (Maglock Rating x 2, 1 Combat Turn) Extended Test to remove the casing of the maglock and then rewiring the circuits with another Locksmith + Agility [Physical] (Maglock Rating x 2, 1 Combat Turn) Extended Test.
Remove casing: At least 1 Combat Turn.
Rewire circuits: At least 1 Combat Turn.
Your Matrix expert would take an opposed Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] v. Logic + Sleaze Test to spot the silent running device icon, an opposed Hacking + Logic [Sleaze] v. Intuition + Firewall Test or an opposed Cybercombat + Logic [Attack] v. Willpower + Firewall Test to gain a mark on the device icon and finally an opposed Electronic Warfare + Intuition [Sleaze] v. Intuition + Firewall Test to open the door as a free action (in earlier editions this would take at least 15 minutes of real life time to resolve!)
Spot Device Icon: 1 Complex action.
Mark Device Icon: 1 Complex action.
Controlling the device: 1 Free action.
-
There is a few other ways to get through that door..
Some of it depends on the lock itself, But you've got the keycard copier, the Maglock passkey, or the sequencer, which could allow you to bypass the things quicker.
Or if you're feeling particularly brutal, explosives. Or perhaps one of my more favorite ways of getting past a door.. The Koolaid man approach, where your Adept with Smashing blow charges a wall, while screaming OOOoooh YEeeaaaaH!"
-
Keycard Copier requires you to obtain a valid keycard (potential Palming test, as well as legwork to find someone with an appropriate card), copy it (a quick swipe followed by a Hardware + Logic [Mental] (2) test that takes 10 minutes and requires a hardware kit. It is by FAR the slowest way to get through a door.
Maglock Passkeys are likely the fastest way through a maglock, but the Rating 4 limitation ensures that it's a losing proposition against a Rating 4 or higher maglock.
A sequencer still requires you to break the case open.
Honestly, the quickest way through a door is with a shotgun to the lock or a battering ram, both of which arguably take 1 complex action (possibly followed by a simple action to push open the remains).
None of this is helping your argument that Matrix actions are too slow, and at this point it just seems like your looking for reasons to lament about technomancers. Yes, they could use some love, and hopefully they will in the new book. But saying there is no reason for a team to have a PC hacker is a bit much; a team without a hacker is like a team without a magician, or a face, or a samurai, or a rigger. Can such a team accomplish certain tasks? Yes, absolutely. But when it comes down to the wire and you're missing key expertise for a critical part of the job, it's going to be a very bad day indeed.
-
The argument is the matrix is too slow. It takes 3 IPs before you begin to do anything if someone flips their items onto Silent. and this stems from the fact that everything being a complex action (a lot of which is specifically Matrix Perception), while having the same initiative speed as Runners in the meat world.
The only counter argument to the speed of the matrix is that its not slow if you do anything other than use the matrix. To Pick up a gun because by the time you get marks on things, you're already shot, or combat is over in a blink.
And no, saying that there really isn't reason to not have a haceker isn't like saying you don't really need the other archetypes. A Street Sam stops people from messing your face up in meatworld and messes up other peoples stuff in meatworld. A Magician stops people from messing your stuff up in astral world and messes other peoples stuff up in astral world. But the matrix lags behind both those worlds so much that you really don't need a decker or technomancer, because you aren't really and the enemy isn't really worried that a hacker will mess with their smartgun system and eject their clip
Like that ork woman on page 34? Bet she could've put a few rounds of SnS in that Lone Star officer in the time it took her to eject his rifle's magazine, or catch a few slugs of her own center mass while MARKing him.
In the time it took her to cause a rather minor effect, she could have done something else completely unrelated to matrix, or gotten dead.
When it comes down to the wire, there isn't really isn't much that more bullet or more magic won't solve faster than a decker/Techno on the matrix. Do you limit what runs you can do without a hacker? Absopostivelutely. But you can talk to a contact for a lot of the matrix search checks and the like, you can't have a contact shoot bullets for you, or cast most spells. And you wouldn't have a Street sam or mage pick up a deck in the middle of doing the matrix things, like people say the hacker needs to do in every single part other than his bit of doing what exactly? You can only have a paydata run so many times.
-
From a GM standpoint this is about either poor setup by the GM or poor teamplay. If my group has a decker I will make sure to occasionally have the
bad guys enemy supported by automatic stuff(weapon station, drones, mines etc.) which could easily kill/maim a charging sam in one round. If the combat players know this could happen they will let the support characters do their stuff before charging in with guns blazing.
This isn't just on the offensive when the group has time to plan, but also on the defensive. Lets say the groups is attacked in a parking lot and look at different ways this could play out:
1. They remain in the open and the combat characters kill all the enemies.
This is bad play. It is okay if it happens sometimes, but if all combat is like this then support character players feel left out.
2. They remain in the open and are killed by mechanized units which could have been taken out by a decker.
This is no fun for the combat dudes, but it will encourage option 3.
3. They run behind something and provide covering fire for the support characters who can then hack the combat drone/summon spirits/send out flash pak drones/whatever and then they can attack/run away/whatever.
This option means the combat characters have to wait a few seconds. I know this can be difficult, but I recommend trying.
This isn't a shadowrun rules problem because I have seen this in other games as well. This is about the GM accepting a certain behavior and the players going along with it. If the SAM can always kill the enemy without the support charcacters then that is what will happen every time. If you experience this you should talk to your GM/group about it because it is easy to fall into a bad pattern and not recognize it for what it is.
-
Not having a hacker on the team is a severe disadvantage for any run involving breaching physical security, simply because wireless scanners cannot detect hardwired systems. A street samurai or magician can pack all the gear and mojo they want, but they cannot hack the host to find those passive security systems; a hacker can.
If you feel like offloading that job onto an NPC because your hacker can't (or won't, in my opinion) contribute to combat in a way you feel is appropriate, that's on you. Plenty of things for hackers to do in my opinion; hacking an opponents smartgun is a boring use of their skills if you ask me. Once the bullets start flying, you run or you fight back. Hacking isn't an overtly offensive art, like gunplay and (combat) spellslinging, and expecting it to be to my mind dilutes what the Matrix is all about. But, that's just my opinion, and I don't think we'll ever agree here.
3. They run behind something and provide covering fire for the support characters who can then hack the combat drone/summon spirits/send out flash pak drones/whatever and then they can attack/run away/whatever.
This option means the combat characters have to wait a few seconds. I know this can be difficult, but I recommend trying.
This isn't a shadowrun rules problem because I have seen this in other games as well. This is about the GM accepting a certain behavior and the players going along with it. If the SAM can always kill the enemy without the support charcacters then that is what will happen every time. If you experience this you should talk to your GM/group about it because it is easy to fall into a bad pattern and not recognize it for what it is.
Absolutely agreed. Making opponents think tactically is a huge deal for a GM. Once players realize they can't brute force (aha, pun very much intended) their way through a bunch of mooks and have to be as tactical as their opponents, then combat can evolve into something more than just 2 combat turns worth of slugging it out while the samurai takes a few hits and the team kills their opponents dead.
To my mind, and I should note that I prefer more mirrorshade/black trenchcoat style gameplay, more often than not when the bullets start flying the team has already failed at one of the most important parts of shadowrunning; remaining undetected. At this point, it's not about "executing every motherf***** last one of" the enemy, but getting away as cleanly as possible. In order to do avoid this in the first place, the team will need a hacker to take care of those pesky security systems, particularly the recording devices.
-
Probably not. But its the whole reason why there is all those wireless bonuses and even a blurb in datatrails about making sure combat is set up to allow hacking in combat.
And pretty much breaching physical security could be done in a bunch of other ways other than hacking. You're not strictly limited to breaching the physical security by just hacking.
Though I guess there is one more type of run that a decker/technomancer would be able to shine (possibly decker's more) and that would be deepruns. Seems a tad silly to me though with that one since it makes Sams and mages suck so much.
-
Though I guess there is one more type of run that a decker/technomancer would be able to shine (possibly decker's more) and that would be deepruns. Seems a tad silly to me though with that one since it makes Sams and mages suck so much.
Only if the samurai is built with a very narrow focus. And this is why I prefer characters that are more well rounded, personally. If everyone on the team has a diverse skill set with some overlap, the game becomes more about succeeding as a team than as individual experts who just happen to be working together.
-
I do not think what he says is invalid.
After all hell breaks lose, you as your teams hacker of course think of good ways to help your team. And strangely, the more specialized you are in the matrix, the less you can help.
This is different for every table I guess, but what I've seen is "I try to brick something (Dataspike) -> Owner gets alerted says Core Book -> Every enemy NPC turns off Wireless as a simple Action -> Well then, f* the Matrix and lets get out my Pistol."
All depending on the Gamemaster of course.
I get that this is the moment for the Samurai to shine, but in the end there is a long talk in the group:
"Did that Decker just jump in a trash barrel when the fight started and did nothing to help at all?"
And now you need to explain: "No, no, no guys ! I started Matrix Perceptions and started to mark people, but everytime one of you geeked them before I could finish! I was totally helpful!"
So, the general consensus in this thread is: When a fight starts, forget your deck, forget the fact that you dumped your Agility at character creation and start spraying and praying?
On the other hand, a full on Face has similar problems.
-
If you want to contribute to combat, build a combat decker? Same advice goes for magicians and faces, after all...
I feel like the fact that hackers can go after other systems gets glossed over in this discussion. A rigger operating several (long-range) combat drones out of his armored van or a security spider operating all of the buildings security measures can take on a team with little fear of samurai or combat adepts/magicians. The same rigger or spider should fear the hacker, however, because while the samurai and adept can handle the physical threat of drones and security systems they won't be able to take on the rigger or spider until they've dealt with ALL of the physical threats and potentially searched a very large area. This is where the hacker comes in; while he may need to spend a few combat turns locating the rigger or spider and then mark him a few times in order to take him out in a single stroke, the reward is potentially significant. Disabling the rigger or spider not only lowers the effectiveness of drones and security systems, but a dedicated hacker could even turn those same systems against his opponents. In this respect, the hacker is orders of magnitude faster than the samurai or magician. In the time it would take a samurai to even just begin combing a 10 story building from top to bottom or start canvasing a few city blocks for an innocuous looking van, a hacker could mark a drone twice, snoop it to find who's communicating with it, mark the owner, and take him out.
I see it less as "the Matrix is slow" and more as "playing a hacker is high-risk, high-reward". Some of this is dependent on GM, of course, because if all your GM does is throw physical enemies at you then your combat options are limited. But if your GMs is somewhat experienced they will find ways of challenging a team to a point where occasionally, a hacker will be not only be a benefit to the team, but absolutely essential. Even the best of street samurai can't stand up to an army of drones or security systems, after all.
In other words, the hacker shouldn't, in my opinion, be able to accomplish the same tasks at the same speed in the Matrix as a street samurai can do in the physical world; instead, they should be able to do other things. Another aspect where hackers shine is in their ability to detect trouble before it even begins. Sure, hacking an opponents cybereyes takes longer than it does for the samurai to drill a few bullets through them, but the samurai can't detect that opponent before the hacker can in many cases. Hackers can literally see around corners by hacking security cameras or keeping their eye on AR for obvious and running silent icons, particularly smartguns, and to my mind this is an integral part of the setting. Glossing over this highly useful role diminishes the part hackers can play in the game, and just flat out making them better in combat does not address anything I feel is missing.
Bottom line: this is going to vary from table to table. There's plenty of opportunities for house rules here.
-
To spot a silent running icon you normally just take an opposed Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] v. Logic + Sleaze Test. You don't need to be within 100 to do this. You use this test to spot a specific silent running icon in Berlin even if you are physically located in Boston (but the negative dice pool modifier from noise due to distance might make it difficult).
Getting a list of all silent running icons within 100 metres and then spot them one by one at random is something you use when you don't even have an idea that there might be a silent running icon out there in the first place...
-
That is why you do have to do the first perc check to narrow things down. You might see guns, but youve gotta do that test to find the one that is that gun.
Even with the decker vs rigger, making non matrix actions with the rigger allows them to basically fire off a lot of bullets before you get to the bare minimum number of IPs to finally be able to hack it. That matrix spider already reported you by the time the decker notices him too
-
If you're this determined to feel like hackers are bad with that kind of attitude, I've got nothing more to offer here. Play them or not; no skin off my back.
-
That is why you do have to do the first perc check to narrow things down. You might see guns, but youve gotta do that test to find the one that is that gun.
Even with the decker vs rigger, making non matrix actions with the rigger allows them to basically fire off a lot of bullets before you get to the bare minimum number of IPs to finally be able to hack it. That matrix spider already reported you by the time the decker notices him too
Why are you persisting with this point? A ¥3000 Agent can do this for you... IN VR!!!!! So what's your problem with having an Agent running Matrix Perception tests in VR while your Decker is running with the team in AR? As others have pointed out... there are plenty of other ways a Decker contributes to the team. I've pointed out that a Cyberarm agility 9+ & a 6 in Automatics let's you geek mooks just fine with a submachine gun in actual combat. So this issue has been addressed from several different points and shown that your complaints are invalid. Agents handle Matrix Perception, Deckers can either be fighting in the actual combat with a ¥70,000 piece of cyberware or focused on other threats that the team themselves can't deal with. Problem solved... point your GM to this thread for others very helpful suggestions on how to interface Matrix threats into runs if there are any continuing issues in your game.
-
You might see guns, but youve gotta do that test to find the one that is that gun.
Spotting a specific icon is resolved with a single opposed Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] v. Logic + Sleaze Test (even if the specific physical device is more than 100 meters away).
You [just] spot all silent running icons within 100 meters [as a last resort,] when you don't even have an idea if there are any silent running icons in the vicinity to begin with....
-
The reason why I've persisted the point that You've got to make a bunch of perception checks, is kinda cause you do. Even if there was some rule that said that the Agent could make perception checks for you, allowing you to bypass the need to look at the silent icon, He'd still have to take two turns to do it when the drek hits the fan.
You've pointed out nothing that counter points the matrix actions being slow. The constant thing you've been saying has always been "The matrix is too slow, by the time you put all those marks to do anything you could have been doing something else."
Which is exactly what I've been bloody well saying here, chap.
When both the meat world and the matrix world are both running 4d6 dice, but one is composed of mostly simple and free actions, while the other is mostly complex actions. The Complex action one is going to be slower than the simple and free action one.
-
Well, I've not played the previous editions... but the overwhelming response seems to be that 5th Ed Matrix is vastly faster and more integrated from previous editions... so perhaps they didn't want to push things too far?
I kinda get what you're saying, but frankly it's the kind of thing that isn't going to change before 6th Ed... sooo, perhaps look into ways of dealing with what you've got to work with?
-
In the meat world you almost always need a direct line of sight.
In the matrix you almost never need a direct line of sight.
Maybe you are supposed to spot and mark your target while he is riding the elevator - not when he step out of it... ;)
-
A simple fix would be a new cyberdeck module:
Direct-Connector
"This module works in tandem with Fresnel Fabric Armor: If you have a direct line of sight to a device, this module allows you to use sleaze or attack without needing to identify the device through a matrix perception. This works even if the device is running silent as long as it's wireless active."
-
A simple fix would be a new cyberdeck module:
Direct-Connector
"This module works in tandem with Fresnel Fabric Armor: If you have a direct line of sight to a device, this module allows you to use sleaze or attack without needing to identify the device through a matrix perception. This works even if the device is running silent as long as it's wireless active."
Or we could just, you know, make Matrix Perception a Simple Action like it is in the meat..
-
Or we could just, you know, make Matrix Perception a Simple Action like it is in the meat..
Roll an AI and have Matrix Perception as a Free Action ;)
-
Really? Might just have to make my next hacker an AI
-
Really? Might just have to make my next hacker an AI
I'm still confused with your point, pretty much in its entirety. If you want to have multiple passes per Combat Turn than go VR. Of course then you would have to deal with the Hosts Firewall since you won't be running with the team but safe far away. Adding a Multidimensional Coprocessor Module would get you an extra +1d6 to all Matrix Initiative. An Agent would be running in VR so it would get at least 2 if not 3 passes per turn. You can spend ¥70,000 for a Gunarm to shoot as good as a gun bunny.
Basically there are a vast array of choices that undeniably prove how dumb your point is.... why continue to say it? Your obstinacy in the face of many different people's helpful advice on your lack of understanding on what you should be doing & how to be the most effective while doing it is remarkable.
-
Okay, the reason why you’re confused is probably because you don’t realize that you’re still running on about the same initiative counter as street sams with 3 ranks in Wired Reflexes. If they have 10+4d6, and you in VR have 10+4d6 on average you’re going to have the same number of initiative passes. Now the street sam however doesn’t need to make complex actions to see who is around. He can just see them. Then he can start shooting them. More of his actions are based in Simple (Half turn) or Free (An action you can take every turn), while yes a few are complex actions (Full turn). For the matrix side of things however, everything is pretty much a complex turn, except for a few things like changing your current virtual reality level. (AR, CVR HVR)
Putting a +1d6 isn’t enough to give you a pass that meat world can’t get. It does help, but only a very slight amount, in terms of just making your curve a little bit higher.
Even if the agent/sprite can share their perceptions into you, you’ve still got to go through at least a round, if they’re running silent. Possibly more, depending on how well you can do “That one there.” It kinda also gets the point of why do you even do any hacking at all, when the agent is almost as good as you?
Becoming a Diet-Sam isn’t desirable. I don’t know why this is so hard to understand that some characters don’t want to lop off their arm to go get a robot one. Like Technomancers. AIs can’t even use cyberware (But according to Xenon they can do their perception tests a lot faster). Notice how the Decker archetype isn’t loaded up with a bunch of combat oriented cyberware? But the biggest thing that seems to be missed here, is that it doesn’t matter how much cyberware you put into your guy for physical combat. It does nothing to increase the speed of your actions in matrix combat beyond skill wires for AR to reach the level of VR hackers.
-
And you think the ability to see through walls is immaterial because??? You can see them from farther away than the Street Sam giving you a huge lead time!!! You can search the entire building from the the front door... you can search the building before you even go in!!!!! You are complaining about a situation your own ineptitude as created... if the first time you are scanning for "Silent Icons" is when you can see the actual people then you have failed at your job. So again... your point is dumb. Matrix Perception tests have no range nor barriers except Noise or Faraday Cages. Hijacking the security camera feeds should let you know where every security guard in the buildings physical location is so that you can start searching precisely there immediately. Dropping a Mark on them long before any actual combat takes place is easy... remember the 7 Ps, Prior Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.
-
A simple fix would be a new cyberdeck module:
Direct-Connector
"This module works in tandem with Fresnel Fabric Armor: If you have a direct line of sight to a device, this module allows you to use sleaze or attack without needing to identify the device through a matrix perception. This works even if the device is running silent as long as it's wireless active."
Funny, that's how I'd play AR hacking. If you can see a device that is not running silent with your meat eyes, you can hack it. Same thing with icons in VR; as long as they are not running silently and they are withing 100 meters, you spot them automatically.
The appropriate street samurai comparison would therefore be when the street samurai is attempting to shoot someone he can't see, because they're invisible, or sneaking with concealment, or some such. He'll first have to identify the person or object by making a perception test. I'd wager the reason Matrix Perception is a complex vs physical Perception (Observe in Detail) being a simple action is because there's just more information in the Matrix. Millions of icons vs easily identifiable people or drones. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
-
And you think the ability to see through walls is immaterial because??? You can see them from farther away than the Street Sam giving you a huge lead time!!! You can search the entire building from the the front door... you can search the building before you even go in!!!!! You are complaining about a situation your own ineptitude as created... if the first time you are scanning for "Silent Icons" is when you can see the actual people then you have failed at your job. So again... your point is dumb. Matrix Perception tests have no range nor barriers except Noise or Faraday Cages. Hijacking the security camera feeds should let you know where every security guard in the buildings physical location is so that you can start searching precisely there immediately. Dropping a Mark on them long before any actual combat takes place is easy... remember the 7 Ps, Prior Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.
You do realize that not every time you are going into a guarded compound where everything is static? In a perfect world youd never need to have any sort of combat. The problem does crop up when you got all the time in the world, like in the meat world, watching a building from a distance.
Its when shit hits the fan. Like you know, ambushes. Even if you are radar pinging everyround, a car with speed four could easily get from outside your 100m radius, to twenty meters in just one combat turn.
You cant really do any planning for that.
Again, the slowness of matrix actions doesnt show up when you have enough time to compensate for it. It happens when you don't.
-
I have to say that this is also one of my chief complaints about the Matrix in 5th ed. Far too many matrix actions are complex actions. I can understand the limitations when AR hacking but when VR hacking you should be free of the limitations of meat space but having so many actions be complex and therefore limited to one action per initiative pass really belays that impression IMO.
Having said all that a hacker can counter some of these limitation IF the opportunity exists ahead of time to get prepared. This also assumes that it is possible for the hacker to take covert action ahead of combat without alerting the potential targets.
-
And you think the ability to see through walls is immaterial because??? You can see them from farther away than the Street Sam giving you a huge lead time!!! You can search the entire building from the the front door... you can search the building before you even go in!!!!! You are complaining about a situation your own ineptitude as created... if the first time you are scanning for "Silent Icons" is when you can see the actual people then you have failed at your job. So again... your point is dumb. Matrix Perception tests have no range nor barriers except Noise or Faraday Cages. Hijacking the security camera feeds should let you know where every security guard in the buildings physical location is so that you can start searching precisely there immediately. Dropping a Mark on them long before any actual combat takes place is easy... remember the 7 Ps, Prior Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.
You do realize that not every time you are going into a guarded compound where everything is static? In a perfect world youd never need to have any sort of combat. The problem does crop up when you got all the time in the world, like in the meat world, watching a building from a distance.
Its when shit hits the fan. Like you know, ambushes. Even if you are radar pinging everyround, a car with speed four could easily get from outside your 100m radius, to twenty meters in just one combat turn.
You cant really do any planning for that.
Again, the slowness of matrix actions doesnt show up when you have enough time to compensate for it. It happens when you don't.
Yes well ambushes are when the dreck hits the fan for everybody... even a street sam can't shoot back if the ambushes have decent sneak checks, good cover and firing silenced weapons and thus no-one can poinpoint their locations to return fire. It's even going to take a mage 2 IPs to start doing anything, assuming they can summon. a complex action to summon the spirit and then wait for the next IP to command it to assist them in the fight. Sure they can recklessly summon, but in that sort of situation they're probably going tor a big spirit, close to, or even over their magic rating making reckless summoning an extremely risky preposition.
Basically you're taking the worst case scenario and saying that's why things are bad.
-
Im not even going that far at all. Im going with suddenly surprise combat starts! Time becomes crucial.
That mage can start doing stuff immediately on his first ip. Stuff like making physical barriers, summoning spirtits, buffing his allies, activating counter spell, blindly throwing fireballs. They could even use a simple action to observe in detail then reckless spellcast a spell. Take a free action to go "oh fuck!" All of which dont need the mage to lop off an arm and pick up a gun arm so they can shoot.
With a decker, or techo, you cant really do much of that.
-
Mage places physical barrier, team mates can't shoot back.
Summoning a spirit, takes a complex action.
Observe in Detail to start throwing spells back, need to find them first!
-
Mage places physical barrier, team mates can't shoot back.
A relatively non-issue. In your example, the targets couldn't be easily found in the first place, thus preventing you from shooting back. So doing something that causes you to be unable to shoot back, when you already couldn't shoot back, results in you still not being able to shoot back. But It does allow you to be able to have just a bit more time to perform the perceptions needed.
Summoning a spirit, takes a complex action.
You had mentioned something about reckless casting it. But yes. Yes summoning a spirit does take a complex action typically speaking. And? Its something you can do, without needing to know were the targets are, that yes, you'll have to command next turn using a simple action.
Observe in Detail to start throwing spells back, need to find them first!
Remember of course, that in the meatworld, you generally get an automatic perception test against stealth. So typically, you're already one action over what it is in the matrix. Then if you still don't see them, you can make two perception tests an IP. So thats Three perception tests, by the time the Matrix guy gets one. Doesn't matter who you are, you could be some unaugmented jerk, you're going to have more perception tests in non-vr than the VR.
Nevermind of course that AoE spells don't need Line of site to a particular enemy, just to the central location you're gonna detonate it.
-
That's assuming you pass a surprise test and can take any actions to begin with.
-
you fail the surprise test, you just take a -10 to your initiative and can't do a free action before hand. You can use a point of edge to negate the loss of the free action before hand.
This would be both for the Meat and Matrix. You'd also only fail it if you failed your free perception check.
-
Still, what I'm getting at is that as an archetype that excels at making preparations before, or even on the way to a run... you're crying foul at how useless they are in a worst case scenario where they can't prepare.
-
That is, well, because its the time when time matters.
If you're idly sitting on white sand beaches, drinking a mai tai, The matrix actions could take a minute or more to preform. It honestly wouldn't matter. An hour might be pushing it though, but you could go pretty dang high on that. In the end, it doesn't even matter how fast the matrix moves. But there is a reason why deckers don't hack like this isn't there? Something about pluggin your deck in a host slaved thing. You know, Direct connections. The reason why you'd be running with the group.
There is a reason why there are a bunch of wireless bonuses on items. It isn't for you know.. looks. It was there to have something opened for someone to do a bit of hacking on Right?
There is a reason why they've included blurbs in data trais 179 on hacking during combat.
I'm not even on about it being "the worst case scenario" I'm on about it being one of the more common scenarios. Surprise combat is a very common occurrence. It doesn't even have to involve one party sneaking around either. Just has to involve something going sideways, and lets be bloody honest here, when does something ever not go side ways? It might not be orbital laser cannon from space targeting you sideways, but things go bloody well sideways most of the time.
Like some beasty starts running atcha and there is a door between you and it. While the rest of the team pulls out their guns and spells, you, the matrix expert guy, cannot use your main focus to block the beasty, unless you happened to hack a random door. Maybe the door is silent. Then thats a complex action to spot it, And if Xenon is right, then it would be at least one. Then a complex action to mark it. Then maybe a complex action to close it.
As Zhoul has pointed and yelled about multiple times, that drek is slow sauce. Its better to play a diet-sam and just pull out a gun like everyone else with your gun arm. No other archetype really has to abandon their forte like a hacker does. Yes. Even a face doesn't, cause that face could pull out leadership and boost everyone's ability up, while not really focusing outside his specialty. Or he could be a mage or an adept and have some spells, or use adept powers like commanding voice to lay down the law.
And honestly, its pretty simple to make the matrix user able to affect the combat more easily with his specialty. The Matrix. By you know, decreasing the time it takes to perform basic actions, like Matrix Perception. Maybe Hack on the fly/Brute force even.
Note that with Matrix Perception - If you're the hacker, and you're suppose to be watching over everyones gear, and everyone has a gun, commlink, car, glasses, and ear piece (let along whatever else you have. ) and there is 4 of you.. Thats 20 icons to look over.
-
A simple fix would be a new cyberdeck module:
Direct-Connector
"This module works in tandem with Fresnel Fabric Armor: If you have a direct line of sight to a device, this module allows you to use sleaze or attack without needing to identify the device through a matrix perception. This works even if the device is running silent as long as it's wireless active."
Funny, that's how I'd play AR hacking. If you can see a device that is not running silent with your meat eyes, you can hack it. Same thing with icons in VR; as long as they are not running silently and they are withing 100 meters, you spot them automatically.
The appropriate street samurai comparison would therefore be when the street samurai is attempting to shoot someone he can't see, because they're invisible, or sneaking with concealment, or some such. He'll first have to identify the person or object by making a perception test. I'd wager the reason Matrix Perception is a complex vs physical Perception (Observe in Detail) being a simple action is because there's just more information in the Matrix. Millions of icons vs easily identifiable people or drones. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Oh man! They should have totally had blind hacking in Data Trails! No need to spot your target, if you think it's there, make a hacking action with -6 and use int instead of logic. I'm house ruling that. That's cool as hell. It gets past needing to spot your target. It's only reliable for characters with high dice pools. And it means when you're running silent, you shouldn't dump your firewall.
-
You need to spot targets that are hiding in meat world before you can act on them, same as you need to spot targets hiding in the matrix before you can act against them.
You automatically spot targets that are obvious in meat world same as you automatically spot all icons on the vicinity (within 100 meters or within the same host) that are not trying to hide.
We used to have a situation where you spend a lot of time resolving matrix actions (you had to devote a lot of scene time to the hacker). If you make actions take half the time in the matrix then you automatically also give them twice as much scene time.
They might or might not have gone to far.
They might or might not have gone far enough.
If you feel matrix perception should be a simple (or even free) action, house rule it. Shrug.
.... go VR. Of course then you would have to deal with the Hosts Firewall since you won't be running with the team but safe far away....
Once you have a single mark on the host you can access all the slaved devices from within the host. This give you a direct connection (just like if you had used a physical cable to the device).
You’re still running on about the same initiative counter as street sams with 3 ranks in Wired Reflexes.
I get your point, however;
Since you can't get WR3 at chargen (due to availability) most sams will not run around w WR3 (217,000¥ is quite a lot of cash post chargen).
-
Well, you could if you took the right thing. And often the ones you're really competing against, don't really go through character generation since they're the baddies who wanna make ya'll into swiss cheese.
The other problem I've noticed is if you've got a team of people,each one running 4~5 wireless enabled items (Many will have more) With being able to do only a single matrix perception test per ip, per item, in a team of 4, it could take you 16-20 ips before you were able to check everyone's gear for marks, even if its your agent doing the checks.
Of course there are somethings I've wondered as well, such as the Matrix action Send Message, and if this is a simple action like it says in the matrix actions, or a free action like it kinda says in the free actions area, for sending off short messages. Are you only able to transmit simple text messages or can you "speak". Its something a bit glossed over sometimes, but if you can only use the send message, and it is still a simple action, then your ability to communicate with the rest of the team slows down pretty badly.
Honestly a few things that could help with doing the matrix stuff in combat, which has been the intent of reducing the man in the van, adding the illogical wireless bonuses, and a number of things that they've said in the book, would to reduce a handful of the matrix actions to simple, and some to free, if certain conditions are met. Like being in VR or running a particular program, or just by being a technomancer.
I mean, they've got that multiprocessor one like you've pointed out, that makes matrix perception and observe in detail free actions. (Unless the test is an opposing test) and adds in one more free action for them. That is a pretty big jump in matrix speed I'd have to say, being able to do at least 2 a round while doing anything else.Possibly up to four if you're able to trade up actions. (Using a simple action to do a free action) Or 2 free perceptions and 1 complex action perception to look at the hidden icon.
-
...it could take you 16-20 ips before you were able to check everyone's gear for marks, even if its your agent doing the checks.
Or you know, you could just check if there is a mark on the PAN icon......
(when a hostile hacker place a mark on a slaved device he will automatically also mark the master device in the PAN).
Of course there are somethings I've wondered as well, such as the Matrix action Send Message....
A few gestures or one short phrase take only a free action. You can also speak a short phase as a free action via the matrix if you for example have an open live feed to one or more personas (think team speak).
Short messages normally take a simple action (but only a free action if you have DNI and a direct connection (cable)). Sending files or images and commanding your spirit, sprite, agent or autopilot (multiple autopilots if you use RCC) is also a simple action. Connecting one or more personas to a live feed over the matrix take a simple action as well.
A whole paragraph worth of text or audio is normally nothing you can do mid combat. It take as long as it take to say. A combat turn is 3 seconds... However if you have DNI and a persona then you can do it over the matrix as a simple action (even in AR).
Commanding a hostile agent or autopilot take a complex action and a mark on the owner (Spoof Command). Technomancers might have the power to command any device or persona (including IC) as a complex action (Puppeteer).
-
...it could take you 16-20 ips before you were able to check everyone's gear for marks, even if its your agent doing the checks.
Or you know, you could just check if there is a mark on the PAN icon......
(when a hostile hacker place a mark on a slaved device he will automatically also mark the master device in the PAN).
Look at Xenon.... he's such a good guy, still trying to help someone who obviously doesn't want to learn why he has such a hard time with the Matrix. When you do the worst possible choice of actions, then it will always be rough for you Trisk. When you start doing smarter actions & planning ahead you'll realize what a dream this Matrix is in comparison to the mini game it used to be all on it's own.
-
...it could take you 16-20 ips before you were able to check everyone's gear for marks, even if its your agent doing the checks.
Or you know, you could just check if there is a mark on the PAN icon......
(when a hostile hacker place a mark on a slaved device he will automatically also mark the master device in the PAN).
Ah Right. So just gotta check the tops first, then work you way back down. I suppose the spider could also keep checking for marks on the host before looking at the devices connected to the host to catch a predator, which might be a reason not to go hacking too early..
-
Actually, looking for marks in your PAN is a waste of time if you don't have to maintain marks of your own. Just periodically restart your devices. And since you should base your PAN on a high rated commlink and not your cyberdeck, even marks shouldn't be a problem.
Or to phrase it another way: "Have you tried turning it off and on again?"
-
Aye. Its part of my beefs with how easy it is to thwart a hacker, both Hackers against you and hackers on your team.
I'd also like to bring attention to something else as well with the matrix actions taking so long.
Puppeteer.
As far as I know without a special quality, there is no matrix actions that are free actions.
There is only three simple actions (Jackout, Change Icon, Check overwatch score)
The rest are all complex actions or variable. I honestly don't know if you can use puppeteer to do a variable action, logically you should be able to if its a simple or complex action.
-
Control Device
You only need one hit to Puppeteer a door to open.
(And you don't need any marks to do it either)
-
Control Device
You only need one net hit to Puppeteer a door to open.
(And you don't need any marks to do it either)
The door in question resists Puppeteer with Willpower (or Device Rating if no one is attending to the door) + Firewall. Assuming it's an unattended "Residential Security Device", you're likely looking at 4 dice in opposition, an average of 1.3333 hits, a Force 3 Puppeteer to ensure an average roll gets you that 1 net hit, and having to resist 7 Drain to do in one action what a hacker will do in two.
-
Let me rephrase;
You need one net hit to open a door with Puppeteer....
The point was that there matrix actions that are free matrix actions, not that puppeteer have an extra high fade value (but you can for example thread it at level 1 and push the limit with edge to mitigate that).
-
Question: Puppeteer states that it can be used to force a device to perform one Matrix Action. Opening a door is not a matrix action but rather the result of either the Control Device matrix action or the Spoof Command matrix action. So how would this work?
-
You use Puppeteer on the lock that's preventing you from opening the door physically?
-
Wouldn't that be the same as opening the door?
-
Subtle difference. One is electronically disengaging a lock through the matrix, the other is physically opening a door which may or may not have a form of automatic mechanism to do so.
Depends on how nitpicky you want to get for "I open the door through the Matrix", I guess.