Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: norskface on <06-23-15/0847:38>
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Hey everyone :D
I have a question or Errata suggestion about Addiction.
Im not sure, if Im correct here, but probably I find some new arguments.
The problem is that in the German version this phrase is completely missing:
The clock on this keeps ticking even if you
skip a week, but every week you go without indulging
reduces the Addiction Threshold by 1 (it returns to normal
when you use again). If the threshold hits 0, you’re off the
hook until you use the substance again. This means that
substances with high Addiction ratings (like kamikaze)
could get you hooked in a single dose.
So one of the guys I play with now want to handle it without this rule, since the German version is actually newer and is called to be an Errata version of the English books.
But in my mind it gets totally easy that way to bypass Addiction without even making a test, since you also dont run every day...
So which version is wrong?
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Hello!
The German version isn't an errata. It's newer, and incorporated some errata - even some that didn't actually make it into the, well, errata - but that doesn't mean it automatically supersedes the English book.
Anyway, the lack of that phrase doesn't change the meaning of the previous phrase. You still need to make a test every 11-AddictionRating weeks. In fact, the thing that gets removed that does matter is the threshold reduction every week you don't use it - it makes it easier, not harder to get addicted!
Of course, it's more likely that the removal is an oversight. At any rate, the addiction rules are a mess anyway.
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Well, without the last phrase you only have to make the addiction test if you take the substance 11-Addictionrating weeks in a row.
So it may happens quite seldom, since you have maybe 2 weeks downtime... And even if not, than you could just skip the last week taking it and be off the hook.
Or am I getting s.th wrong?
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Well, without the last phrase you only have to make the addiction test if you take the substance 11-Addictionrating weeks in a row.
So it may happens quite seldom, since you have maybe 2 weeks downtime... And even if not, than you could just skip the last week taking it and be off the hook.
Or am I getting s.th wrong?
That isn't what it says. It says if you take an addiction test after 11 - Addiction rating weeks unless the addiction threshold has dropped to zero if you haven't taken the drug recently enough. That's why it mentions you can get addicted to Kamikaze on one dose because the base threshold is higher than the addiction test interval.
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Yes thats the problem Im pointing out.
In the German version this phrase is not existing, like I posted when i started the Threat.
Seams even an Pegasus Supporter (dont ask me what this is) claimed that it was correct this phrase was left out.
For anyone who speaks German:
http://www.foren.pegasus.de/foren/topic/24717-drogen-regeln-zur-abh%C3%A4ngigkeit-deutsch-englisch/
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But you said you would only take the addiction test if you use the drug for Addiction -11 weeks in a row.
Well, without the last phrase you only have to make the addiction test if you take the substance 11-Addictionrating weeks in a row.
Even with the missing wording this is not true. Even if you use it one time you still have to make a test at the appropriate time. The only difference is that you would have to make a test for any drug regardless of usage, addiction rating and addiction threshold.
For example: With the wording included if I take some Novocoke one time then stay sober for the next four weeks then I would not have to make an addiction test because the threshold for the test would be zero by the time the test was called for. Without the wording I would still have to make both a psychological and a physiological addiction test with a threshold of two after four weeks. That makes it a lot easier to hit burnout status especially for the nastier drugs.
Like Top Dog said this is most likely a oversight one way or the other but without clarification I personally would rule that the wording stays until someone at CGL says other wise. Of course at your table you guys may decide differently.
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I feel we still misunderstand each other.
I try to explain what problem Im confronted with right now:
Yes the way you explain it is the correct way it is written in the English version.
But in the german version it has only following explanation:
“Every time you use an addictive substance during (11
— Addiction Rating) weeks in a row, you need to make an
Addiction Test.“
Missing is this part:
“The clock on this keeps ticking even if you
skip a week, but every week you go without indulging
reduces the Addiction Threshold by 1 (it returns to normal
when you use again). If the threshold hits 0, you’re off the
hook until you use the substance again. This means that
substances with high Addiction ratings (like kamikaze)
could get you hooked in a single dose.”
So the problem I have now is, that in the German version you only have to make an addiction test, if you use Kamikaze 3 weeks in a row. That means you don't have to take only one doze to make the test, you have to use minimum 3 every week one. So you are off the hook very quickly.
Don't misunderstand me again, I have a very big problem how it is ruled in the German version since you would even not get addicted anymore to Kamikaze, if you have 2 weeks Downtime.
I hope I expressed my self in a way its clear, what I want to say.
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“Every time you use an addictive substance during (11
— Addiction Rating) weeks in a row, you need to make an
Addiction Test.“
I'm sure this is a language barrier issue or translation issue, but the way I read that phrase is "Every time you use [a drug] during [this period] you need to make an addiction test". That implies that you have to make an addiction test each time you use, not at the end of the interval, which is brutal and not the way it was intended.
The way you seem to be interpreting it is more correct - you take only one test at the end of the interval regardless of how often you use. The "every time" wording is horrible. But moving past that, under your (correct) interpretation, if you took a drug with an addiction rating of 4, at the end of that interval your threshold to NOT become addicted would be 4.
Under the rules as written in the English book (i.e. with the addition of the paragraph that was left out), if you took a drug with an addiction rating of 4, and then did not use for two weeks before you were forced to take your test, the threshold would have dropped by one for each week down to 2. Beating a threshold of 2 is easier than beating a threshold of 4, and thus omitting that paragraph makes it significantly easier to become addicted since you will always be facing the full threshold of any drug you take.
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I feel we still misunderstand each other.
I try to explain what problem Im confronted with right now:
Yes the way you explain it is the correct way it is written in the English version.
But in the german version it has only following explanation:
“Every time you use an addictive substance during (11
— Addiction Rating) weeks in a row, you need to make an
Addiction Test.“
Missing is this part:
“The clock on this keeps ticking even if you
skip a week, but every week you go without indulging
reduces the Addiction Threshold by 1 (it returns to normal
when you use again). If the threshold hits 0, you’re off the
hook until you use the substance again. This means that
substances with high Addiction ratings (like kamikaze)
could get you hooked in a single dose.”
So the problem I have now is, that in the German version you only have to make an addiction test, if you use Kamikaze 3 weeks in a row. That means you don't have to take only one doze to make the test, you have to use minimum 3 every week one. So you are off the hook very quickly.
Don't misunderstand me again, I have a very big problem how it is ruled in the German version since you would even not get addicted anymore to Kamikaze, if you have 2 weeks Downtime.
I hope I expressed my self in a way its clear, what I want to say.
Notice I bold the word during. This does not mean that you have to use the drug at least once a week for 11 - addiction rating weeks in order to make the test. It means that you have to make the test if you have used the drug at least once during the period of 11 - addiction rating weeks. That is a big difference. The missing wording only pertains to the scenarios I laid out in my previous example:
For example: With the wording included if I take some Novocoke one time then stay sober for the next four weeks then I would not have to make an addiction test because the threshold for the test would be zero by the time the test was called for. Without the wording I would still have to make both a psychological and a physiological addiction test with a threshold of two after four weeks. That makes it a lot easier to hit burnout status especially for the nastier drugs.
Taking the drug for the first time starts the addiction interval. Once you have made your addiction test you are clear (assuming you are not addicted) until you take the drug again in which case a new interval period begins.
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I feel we still misunderstand each other.
I try to explain what problem Im confronted with right now:
Yes the way you explain it is the correct way it is written in the English version.
But in the german version it has only following explanation:
“Every time you use an addictive substance during (11
— Addiction Rating) weeks in a row, you need to make an
Addiction Test.“
Missing is this part:
“The clock on this keeps ticking even if you
skip a week, but every week you go without indulging
reduces the Addiction Threshold by 1 (it returns to normal
when you use again). If the threshold hits 0, you’re off the
hook until you use the substance again. This means that
substances with high Addiction ratings (like kamikaze)
could get you hooked in a single dose.”
So the problem I have now is, that in the German version you only have to make an addiction test, if you use Kamikaze 3 weeks in a row. That means you don't have to take only one doze to make the test, you have to use minimum 3 every week one. So you are off the hook very quickly.
Don't misunderstand me again, I have a very big problem how it is ruled in the German version since you would even not get addicted anymore to Kamikaze, if you have 2 weeks Downtime.
I hope I expressed my self in a way its clear, what I want to say.
Notice I bold the word during. This does not mean that you have to use the drug at least once a week for 11 - addiction rating weeks in order to make the test. It means that you have to make the test if you have used the drug at least once during the period of 11 - addiction rating weeks. That is a big difference. The missing wording only pertains to the scenarios I laid out in my previous example:
For example: With the wording included if I take some Novocoke one time then stay sober for the next four weeks then I would not have to make an addiction test because the threshold for the test would be zero by the time the test was called for. Without the wording I would still have to make both a psychological and a physiological addiction test with a threshold of two after four weeks. That makes it a lot easier to hit burnout status especially for the nastier drugs.
Taking the drug for the first time starts the addiction interval. Once you have made your addiction test you are clear (assuming you are not addicted) until you take the drug again in which case a new interval period begins.
May it is really an misinterpretation caused by language and even the translators missinterpretated the englisch wording? Im fixed to the word "in a row", so if there is only the first part, it means in German (and that's also how its translated), that you would need to take the substance every week minimum once tto be forced to do the test after 11-Level Weeks.
Under the rules as written in the English book (i.e. with the addition of the paragraph that was left out), if you took a drug with an addiction rating of 4, and then did not use for two weeks before you were forced to take your test, the threshold would have dropped by one for each week down to 2. Beating a threshold of 2 is easier than beating a threshold of 4, and thus omitting that paragraph makes it significantly easier to become addicted since you will always be facing the full threshold of any drug you take.
My interpretation of this is, that you still need to beat the threshold of 4 and the dropping is only to check, if you get addicted. Since it says in the book:
The threshold for the test is given on the Addiction Table (at right).
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My interpretation of this is, that you still need to beat the threshold of 4 and the dropping is only to check, if you get addicted. Since it says in the book:
The threshold for the test is given on the Addiction Table (at right).
That could be. This topic (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=11865.0) discusses much of this and provides a handy flowchart. Arguments for both interpretations are made (always facing the same Threshold or using the current Threshold based on the reduction for skipping weeks) but the chart uses the reduced threshold interpretation.
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Ja, der deutsche Text ist in der Übersetzung verhunzt worden.
Inhaltlich richtig müsste es heißen: "Wenn du eine abhängig machende Substanz nimmst, musst du nach (11-Abhängigkeitswert) Wochen eine Abhängigkeitsprobe ablegen. Vom Schwellenwert wird dabei für jede Woche in der du clean bleibst ein Punkt abgezogen. Jedes neue Einnehmen während dieser Zeit setzt den Schwellenwert wieder zurück."
[spoiler=translation]
Yes, the German text was mauled in the translation.
Contentwise correct it would have to be: "If you take a addictive substance, you have to roll an addiction test after (11-addiction rating) weeks. Every week you stay clean one point is deducted from the addiction threshold. Every new intake during this time resets the threshold."
[/spoiler]
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So if I got that right, the consensus is that e.g. for BTL Addiction mild (1 dose/2 weeks) with Dreamchips (5 weeks interval, threshold 1) you could take as many BTL's as you want for 4 weeks as long as you don't take the BTL's in week 5 such that the threshold decreases in week 5 from 1 down to 0. This seems very gamey for me and looks like an addiction anynone who was going for free Karma should take (at a cost of 40 Nuyen/month). I guess many people just handle addictions by roleplaying them (especially nicotine and coffeine addictions) but I still would be interested If this is how most people read the rules (according to the other linked thread with the flowchart).
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So if I got that right, the consensus is that e.g. for BTL Addiction mild (1 dose/2 weeks) with Dreamchips (5 weeks interval, threshold 1) you could take as many BTL's as you want for 4 weeks as long as you don't take the BTL's in week 5 such that the threshold decreases in week 5 from 1 down to 0. This seems very gamey for me and looks like an addiction anynone who was going for free Karma should take (at a cost of 40 Nuyen/month). I guess many people just handle addictions by roleplaying them (especially nicotine and coffeine addictions) but I still would be interested If this is how most people read the rules (according to the other linked thread with the flowchart).
Yes, that is how it works. And yes, that is rediculously easy to game, which is (part of) why many people dislike the addiction rules. You are free to houserule it - there have been attempts to make a more coherent system in these forums and elsewhere. But the rules stand as they stand.
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And don't forget the first cavat of character creation:
Subject to GM approval.
If you, as the gm feel the NQ is too "gamey", disallow it. The rules only stand on their face for Missions. Other then Missions, a GM is free to allow, void, or change a quality.
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Thank you. I just wanted to know what the official ruling is. I really wonder why they did not stick with the SR4A rules.
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Ok, I'm confused. Let's work this out. Jen the Nosferatu wants to bring that bastard Abrams from the CDC across To do so she will need to drain 6 points of essence (meaning that she's draining enough essence to last two years without using any essence fueled powers).
Essence Drain has an addiction rating of Targets Essence + 2. This means we are looking at ratings of 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, and 3. The book is not clear if essence drain requires an addiction test every time it's used or only when the essence drainers essence is higher than (6-essence loss from factors not related to HMHVV). Jen will resist addiction with her Logic (8) + her Willpower (6) or 14 dice.
Ok, so she needs to make a test against a threshold of 2 every time she essence drains. That means six tests. Time to go look at the edge rules, the only way this character is failing this test is a very unlucky roll.
Jen now has an addiction threshold of 2 to essence drain. It will go down to zero if she doesn't drain anyone for the next two weeks. On the other hand if she drains someone on each of the next three consecutive weeks (11-8) she will have to make a bonus addiction test.
These rules seem like they were designed to make for slow addictions.
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No, not a test every time she essence drains. At the end of every interval in which the threshold is above zero. I would also rule that draining one victim of 6 points of essence is a single act. So in this case you have a addiction rating of 8 and a threshold of 2. If the vampire restrains herself for three weeks (11 - 9 = 3 weeks) then she would not have to make a test because threshold would have reduced to zero by that time. This is kind of a stupid rule, however, as the addiction rating keeps changing depending on the essence of the victim at the time of the act and if this is happening in a short time frame this is indeed confusing. Until clarification is made the GM basically has three choices in this scenario:
- The essence of the infected's first victim sets the rating for the following interval. It does not change regardless of essence of victims within that same interval.
- The victim with the highest essence sets the addiction rating for the current interval. This can result in the interval suddenly contracting and the infected having to make a addiction check immediately.
- The essence of the latest victim sets the addiction rating for the current interval. This can result in either the interval suddenly expanding or contracting multiple times.
Personally I think option one is the least problematic, easiest to track and least likely to be abused option.
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Well, that would certainly provide some additional encouragement to completely drain the victim. Three different essence drains in three weeks seems a bit unlikely unless the character is in a warzone or something.
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I think a PC infected would have an increased need to drain victims on a regular basis if they were using their abilities than your typical NPC infected so their risk of addiction would be a little higher but still manageable if they were careful.