Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Lodestar on <06-27-15/0053:01>
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So, guys, let's say I want to be a gunslinger and my attribute comes out of my cyberlimbs.
I want to know, what is the difference between having a whole full cyberarm and a cyberhand?
Can't I have the cyberhand to its maximum so I can reach to the maximum augmentation?
Isn't a cyberhand Str/Agi 9 the same thing of a full arm Str/Agi 9, but cheaper in money and essence cost?
Let's say in the same case I want to make a street samurai and I use a two-handed weapon, do I need both limbs to increase my melee attacks?
How does it work for guns that requires the character to use with both hands? Does the character need the attribute high in both hands that are handling the gun or just the trigger hand?
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The attributes of partial limbs (including cyberhands and –feet) may be enhanced, but their attributes only apply for tests directly involving those limbs (such as a Strength Test when gripping something with an enhanced cyberhand)
Extremities are useful for augmenting grip pressure and dexterity. Hands see slightly more use than feet, but they're more or less something for expert safecrackers, expert model makers, expert masseuses / masseurs, and anyone with a backstory that involved losing a hand without being able to get a cloned / type-o replacement.
Or the cyberlimb is being (ab)used for armour.
Partial limbs are slightly more useful in terms of applying attributes, but still not for things like firing a pistol, unless the GM rules it natural to keep your elbow locked and aim from the forearm.
When a particular limb is used for a test (such as leading an attack with your cyberarm), use the attribute for that limb (natural or cyber)
in any other case, take the average value of all limbs involved in the task.
If a task requires the careful coordination of several limbs, use the value of the weakest limb.
So that would be why full limbs are useful, and (unless it's ruled that you can "lead an attack" with your cyberarm when firing a rifle) replacing both arms may be worthwhile.
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After that techno thread on a very similar topic this set of question was basically unavoidable.
Ok so before we get started lets cover a couple things by definitions
Cyber-limbs rules recognize 3 categories relating to this, and each one has to be addressed.
1. Full Limb- The whole arm, from tips of the fingers to the shoulder. This one is well covered, we have good examples of how it should work, and its fairly easy to understand
2 Lower Arm- From tips of the finger to the elbow. This one is not well covered, it counts as half a limb for health box purposes, we know how much capacity it has, but when it can be used on its own is remains fairly theoretical.
3 Hand- From tips of the fingers to the wrist. This one hasn't really been discussed at all. We know stats from a table and that's really about it.
So the question is when can you get away with using just the limbs stats, (Str, Agi), and when you must average it. (the average being the average of the limbs stat and the character's normal stat)
For the full arm if you are employing one handed weapons, you use just the limbs stats (melee ranged etc). The book is clear on that.
For the Half limb, in the last thread I purposed when using only pistol sized weapons, specifically excluding melee you could use just the limb. The logic being you are getting about half the effect of the full limb. Exactly what constitutes a pistol sized weapon still needs a little more specification but the intent is clear, and is my attempted to be consistent with the example given.
For just a Hand I would say if your using a weapon your going to have to average it with the character's normal stat. This really isn't a bad thing, if your cyberhand is agi 9 and your regular stat is agi 3, your going to be shooting at agi 6. So in effect your getting a 3 die bonus from .25 worth of essence. But that is
RAW as I understand it.
Now to specific questions when you say Cyberhand I am assuming just the hand, if you mean lower arm most of these answers are mostly the same, only a couple things are different.
1. A cyberhand is stated in the core and it has different capacity, essence cost, and availability, you can see them on page 457 of the core, there are obvious common sense limits on the differences. For example you can't put a cyber gun slide in a hand.
2. A hand's capacity is high enough to take a full rating 3 enhancement, but only in one stat. So agi 9 is possible or str 9 is possible but not both.
3. As explain above it is not the same in all ways, it has some similarities but is subject many more limitations, the full limb's much great capacity means achieving full maximum is possible, that is not the case with a single hand.
4. For a two handed melee attacks your going to be running the average, even if you had both hands replaced.
5. For a two handed gun your also going to be running the average, even if you had both hands replaced.
As I see it if your making a cyber-primary street sam and your intent on doing the cyberlimb method, your best bet is to get a full limbs, it gives you the most options, and lets you get the maximum stat advantage. If your looking to avoid essence loss and are ok with being a little less effective from the combat stand point, a half limb, maybe a good option for you. If your looking to mess around with builds are trying maximum effect for minimum essence cost a hand is an interest point of discussion, but its going to lag behind a full limb in terms of attribute advantage and total options.
Of course mileage and opinions will very, and your GM will be the final arbiter.
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I find it funny this is the 5th edition and this has still not been addressed in any of the previous editions
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I think I read somewhere that hands only add to skills like lock picking, nothing else like gun wielding
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I think I read somewhere that hands only add to skills like lock picking, nothing else like gun wielding
must've been Houserules You've read ;)
He who dances with Cyberfeet
Medicineman
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1) When a particular limb is used for a test (such as leading an attack with your cyberarm), use the attribute for that limb (natural or cyber).
2) in any other case, take the average value of all limbs involved in the task(*)
3) If a task requires the careful coordination of several limbs, use the value of the weakest limb.
4) The attributes of partial limbs (including cyberhands and –feet) may be enhanced, but their attributes only apply for tests directly involving those limbs (such as a Strength Test when gripping something with an enhanced cyberhand).
5) Cyberlimbs have other useful features. They give you 1 extra damage box on your Physical Condition Monitor for each cyberlimb you possess (ignore hands and feet, and partial limbs count for half a limb).
6) They have Capacity, letting you add cyberweapons and other cyber systems that have a Capacity cost [in brackets].
7) their unarmed Damage Value is (STR)P.
(*) Including -but not limited to- tasks that does not have a test associated with it.
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And this is from where?
Also like to point out cyberlimbs have their own condition boxes so Im pretty sure you can brick them with electrical damage
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And this is from where?
Also like to point out cyberlimbs have their own condition boxes so Im pretty sure you can brick them with electrical damage
It is from the SR5 BBB (Big Basic Book)
Since when do have Cyberlimbs their own Condition Boxes ???
They Add 1 per Limb to your natural Bodys Boxes (1/2 if 1/2 a Limb!)
If Cyberlimbs are WiFi Open they can be bricked like any other WiFi Open Cyberware
But I don't remeber any RAW that says they are especially vulnerable /brickable by electrical damage....
with a big basic Dance
Medicineman
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I want to know, what is the difference between having a whole full cyberarm and a cyberhand?
If you are repairing a throwback old school mechanical clock you would use the weakest of your two hands.
No need for a full limb.
If you want to take a swing at someone you use the attributes of your full arm, just a hand will not help out here.
If you fire at someone with a rifle you use the average value of both arms.
Can't I have the cyberhand to its maximum so I can reach to the maximum augmentation?
Sure, and it will apply in all situations where you take a test that only involve your hand (and not the rest of your arm).
There are several situations where it will not apply (like when you shoot a gun).
Isn't a cyberhand Str/Agi 9 the same thing of a full arm Str/Agi 9, but cheaper in money and essence cost?
It also have less capacity for enhancements and body wear with a capacity cost, give no physical condition monitor boxes, will not help in tests that require your whole arm (like when shooting a gun).
Let's say in the same case I want to make a street samurai and I use a two-handed weapon, do I need both limbs to increase my melee attacks?
You use the average value of both arms.
How does it work for guns that requires the character to use with both hands?
You use the average value of both arms (not hands)
Does the character need the attribute high in both hands that are handling the gun or just the trigger hand?
Neither.
The character use the average value of both arms when not using a particular limb for a test and when the task doesn't take careful coordination of several limbs (but I don't think "guns" are required to be used by two hands and i don't think "guns" give a bonus if you hold them with two hands either...)
And this is from where?
SR5 p. 455 - 456 Cyberlimbs
....Cyberlimbs have their own Strength and Agility ratings. When a particular limb is used for a test (such as leading an attack with your cyberarm), use the attribute for that limb (natural or cyber); in any other case, take the average value of all limbs involved in the task. If a task requires the careful coordination of several limbs, use the value of the weakest limb. The attributes of partial limbs (including cyberhands and –feet) may be enhanced, but their attributes only apply for tests directly involving those limbs (such as a Strength Test when gripping something with an enhanced cyberhand). Cyberlimbs cannot hold any bioware, nor any cyber-implants that take up Essence rather than Capacity. Essence cost, Capacity, and other stats can be found on the Cyberlimb table.
Cyberlimbs have other useful features. They give you 1 extra damage box on your Physical Condition Monitor for each cyberlimb you possess (ignore hands and feet, and partial limbs count for half a limb). They have Capacity, letting you add cyberweapons and other cyber systems that have a Capacity cost [in brackets]. They can perform at superhuman levels with the right enhancements. Cyberlimbs can be dangerous even if they don’t have cyberweapons installed— their unarmed Damage Value is (STR)P.
Also like to point out cyberlimbs have their own condition boxes so Im pretty sure you can brick them with electrical damage
They don't have their own Physical or Stun condition monitors.
What you are talking about are Matrix condition monitors.
Also,
SR5 p. 451 Augmentation
Besides their wireless functionality, almost all cyberware devices are equipped with a neural interface (not to be confused with DNI) that lets you mentally activate and control their functions. You can use this in place of wireless control, preventing wireless hacking, as long as all of the “moving parts” are connected to your nervous system. An item that has a wireless bonus, however, can only gain that full level of functionality if wireless functionality is active.
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You're never going to get a clear answer to this because it's dependent upon GM interpretation. As always, talk to your GM what he considers appropriate for hands, lower limbs, and full limbs.
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If you engaged common sense it would be clear that firing a firearm requires your entire arm at the very least to lift, aim and fire.
If you turn off common sense anything is possible.
Although given the low recoil and lightweight of a light or hold out pistol I would allow you to use it with a cyber forearm.
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Although given the low recoil and lightweight of a light or hold out pistol I would allow you to use it with a cyber forearm.
I wouldn't. I would require all pistols to require full cyberarm to get benefit.
In fact, smaller guns tend to have high recoil due to their low weight. (Equal and opposite reaction and all that).
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fair comment.
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Personally, I don't see how a fore arm would help in shooting anything, Your forearm is both a lever and a rotation point, as a Lever it is controlled and moved by your upper arm. As a rotation point it allows both sweep and angular movement. while I could see how the ability to sweep would help in some firing situations, I don't see it helping enough to make a statistical difference in a fluid, non static combat situation. Fast draw sweep shooting (standing rooted in one spot, and sweeping the gun side to side at the same elevation) MAYBE. but running, dodging, jumping ducking AND shooting (like most combat situations) I can't see it at all.
But, like has been said before, talk to your GM.
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I'll copy over my possible argument for one-handed gun using full stats of cyber forearm from the cybered-technomancer thread.
...What if we take the cyberlimb concept further. Cyber joints are cooler than meat ones. They can spin, twirl, bend, in ways that physical ones cannot. This may look awkward, but what if instead of holding out the pistol at arms length, you could keep your elbow tucked in and hold your arm in more of a V shape with your elbow pointing down. Holding your upper arm more vertically puts less strain on it and it is braced by your trunk. With a cyber forearm, you could bend a cyberwrist so that it [and the forearm] both takes a lot of the strain itself when shooting, and has the range of motion to aim and shoot (instead changing aim from the shoulder). Sure it looks a little goofy and unnatural and less intimidating, but isn't that the thing with cyberware?
And, if cyber forearms replace the elbow (not sure if they do), even more range of mobility without activating muscles closer to the core (upper arm, shoulders, back, abs, etc.) is possible. I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, but I do want to explore the range of possibility of cybermovement, especially enhanced cyberlimbs.
My other analogy comes from being a piano player. When I use my fingers to play piano, muscles in my forearms do a lot of heavy lifting as the muscles that control finger movement are linked to these forearm muscles. This can be problematic sometimes when there is frantic finger movement, and you can find your fingers just can't move so fast even though they themselves don't feel worn or tired, but your forearms are. If I replaced my hands with cyberhands, I would imagine that my cyberfingers would be able to act more independently of the muscles in my forearms, because they are better. They could even bend and twirl (even spin at the wrist if they replaced the wrist), and would allow me to play music with dexterity without tiring my forearms. Taking this analogy further, I would imagine cyber-forearms could bear more strain and function more independent of my upperarms than typical forearms, especially with appropriate bending.
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I get what you are saying and, yes, it would be cool if the joints of the cyberlimbs did that and worked that way. But we just don't know. They have never really given us a huge write up on all the functions and movements of a Cyberlimb. All we know for sure is that they are a limb that resembles a "humanoid" limb. Which is not really much to go off of :( ( and is not even that complete of a description as you could get "Raptor" legs in previous editions)
Which again is why all we have to go off of is the loose descriptions in the CRB pg 454-455, and GM fiat.
Xenon, as usual, did a great job of breaking down the written rules, but there is still some room for interpretation (which is why there is a GM). Find what works at your table and go from there.
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Sorry always think of cyberlimbs as mechanical arm drones so if you hit it with enough electrical damage it will stop function I suppose the limb could also act like a faraday cage and force the electric charge away from the limbs electronic mechanical components towards the users meat body which is then resisted course then it would be straight body resistence test cost wise its 50% discount on buying bioware/muscle replacements
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Sorry always think of cyberlimbs as mechanical arm drones so if you hit it with enough electrical damage it will stop function I suppose the limb could also act like a faraday cage and force the electric charge away from the limbs electronic mechanical components towards the users meat body which is then resisted course then it would be straight body resistence test cost wise its 50% discount on buying bioware/muscle replacements
Well, they mention that cyber arms are "plastics, synthetics, and polymer compounds" (4e Augmentation book). Strictly speaking, these have a high resistance to electricity..... Much higher then your meat body, so an electrical discharge would be more likely to leave the arm alone and fry the meat instead. (of course, this depends on where the strike happened, how much cyber between the point of strike and the meat.... etc etc etc... and part of the reason why SR doesn't use hit tables... thank god!)
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I would like to think that stats are simple simulation of more complex real abilities. Having an Agility of 1 or 5 or 9 are more than just numbers. While inconsistent between characters, they should have meaning beyond a number. Especially the difference between stats below natural limits and augmented stats that raise them to superhuman levels. When you are getting passed the natural highs of agility and strength, I would expect to see unnaturally agile and/or strong limbs/abilities. This could mean cool movement, flexibility, power (augmented strength 11 hands that can flick a quarter across a football field or something unnaturally cool. What if your in melee/grapple and you can get your strong plain cyberhand with razor nails near someone's face, could a flick be more damaging than a punch? How cool!.) I mean, cyberlimbs now have unique functionality that typical limbs do not, so I would expect that limbs in the future that can be enhanced well beyond more natural abilities to reflect that a bit in gameplay. It doesn't have to be all-powerful, but just better/cooler/more interesting than typical abilities.
Hehe. I vote for forearm stats on pistols! :-)
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Also, I realize you can't get a plain cyberhand with Strength 11, but you all get the idea!
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I hear what you are saying.
I think part of that is that people choose to see just the number and not what is represents (there is an post touching on this very issue going on right now too).
Everyone goes "it's a 3, that sucks!" or "You need 1,234,1023,300,102,100.002 dice or you're not effective"
That is simply not sure. A 3 in a skill is Competent (You're skilled at basic operations but struggle with complex operations and "tricks") <that's right out of the CRB>
Combine that with a 3 in an Attribute (with is, BASELINE, MIDDLE OF THE ROAD, EVERYDAY JOE... or as I put it, the average)
So.... that means that the "average" person in their field is throwing 6 dice for the things they are expected to do on a daily basis, on "average".
So when you start seeing things on Characters like 8s or 9s or even higher, yes these are truly exceptional compared to the "average" Guy (especially if this is from just one side of the total skill pool).
After all, if the "average" shooter is throwing 6 dice, and a character with Agility 9 is throwing 12 (9 agility, 3 skill) already that exceptional stat has doubled the pool. Which means he has potentially doubled the achievemtn of the "average" guy.
BUT. That is not what people see, they see that the 9 Agility guy got just 1 more success over the "average" guy and say "But it should be more!!"..... and that is because they are seeing it as just a number.
Look at it an other way:
Bob has been going to the range for weeks now, and has been firing off over 200 rounds a week in practice of his pistols skill. Today he is going for his test. Bob is your average guy... plays a little sports on the weekend, but mostly likes his TV. (Agility 3) His time at the range has made him competent in the use of the gun. He knows where the safety is, he can load it with ease, clean it proficiently and take generally good care of the weapon (skill 3). On the day of his test, he stands before the target and the judge, takes his time and fires off his 10 rounds. (rolls his dice: 1 success for each shot)
When the Judge goes up and grades the target and comes back and tells Bob that he scored a 125 out of a possible 500. More then enough to pass, but nothing overall exceptional.
John has been going to the range for weeks now, and has been firing off over 200 rounds a week in practice of his pistols skill. Today he is going for his test. John is your average guy... plays a little sports on the weekend, but mostly likes his TV. however, John lost his primary arm in a accident a few years ago and got a Cyberarm. (Agility 9) His time at the range has made him competent in the use of the gun. He knows where the safety is, he can load it with ease, clean it proficiently and take generally good care of the weapon (skill 3). On the day of his test, he stands before the target and the judge, takes his time and fires off his 10 rounds. (rolls his dice: 2 success for each shot)
When the judge come back from grading the target and tells John he scored 270 out of a possible 500. Well more then enough to pass, and places John a little above what the Judge considers to be a "skilled" skill. (Because the same could be achieved by someone else with more training, and not just a really steady and expensive arm)
After 40 years of running the shadows Machinegun Kelli has decided to get LeonIzation and go legit. He decides to put his Years of pounding the shadows to good use as a private detective, and needs to pass the pistols exam for his concealed Carry and Pistols Permit. Now, Kelli's favorite weapon is the Assault Rifle (He wasn't called Pistol Kelli, you know...) but after 40 years in the shadows, Kelli used a pistol more times then he likes to admit. (skill 6) Thanks to his Cyberware and combat mods, there is very few more nimble then him (agility 9). On the day of the test, Kelli shows up, fires off his 10 rounds (rolling his skill pool of 15. getting 5 successes each shot)
When the judge comes up to him he exclaims that Kelli got a perfect score! 500 out of 500! The judge is amazed, and tell Kelli that in all his years as a judge, has he seen someone come in and score a perfect score!
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but all most people see is
1
2
5
and say, "well those guys that got 1 and 2 just suck. and the guy that got 5 is barely average!"
No. The guy that got the 1 was "average" the 2 was much better, and the 5 was exceptional!
Part of this is just a number thing (especially if people are coming from other systems like DND where a huge number means more) and some of this is probably the GM not using descriptors that reflect the achievements of the player's rolls VS that of the "average" person and more likely comparing the player's rolls VS those of other "Augmented" people.
And yes, "shadowrunners are not average people" I know this. You know this. But they are surrounded in a world OF average people.... unless of course the donut baker has a baking skill of 10 and a Logic of 8 (for his really good $3.99 per dozen donuts. Or the Gas Jockey has a Agility 8 and a Gymnastic skill of 5, you know, in case he has to do a double back flip handstand somersault to avoid some gas back slash.....
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I love your thought exercise and description of average folks (and the not so average baker and gas jockey)!
Rules and numbers are there to help simulate complex real life issues into a game, but yes, lets also take time to think about the meaning of these rules/numbers and interpreting them as our stories unfold!
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Hey, guys. Thanks for the replies.
It seems my mindset from years of D&D caught on me. I've seeing this part (gear) of the game as in a plain D&D game, where you just add the iten and it adds to your character a bit more of power.
I should come to sense to realize that a simple cyberhand wouldn't lend it's strength alone to an attack using a sword or something similar.
Back then I used to play vampire the masquerade and Shadowrun "sounds" similar to that, isn't it?
I am the GM, btw, and I've always wanted to GM a shadowrun game, but my friends never had the interest on it. Some even say they can't figure out a game where the characters use fire weapons.
And just to clear something out. I understood the capacity limit for the cyberlimbs and the augmentation, but I still didn't get something. There are two numbers like a X[Y] the number between the [] corresponds to the augmentation, right? But isn't an augmentation to increase the arm status already?
And what is the limit for augmentation? The game says if you go beyond your augmentation, you can't wear/use the arm? I suppose it's due the heavyness of it.
And let's say a Troll. He bought an arm, the arm is str/agi 3, right? He can have a max of 10, right? So he should augment the arm with 7 to both str and agi. Wouldn't that go beyond the capacity of the limb? So a Troll can't have a superduper mechanical arm?
And, holy shit. Talking about Trolls. Don't they have to pay 100% more for these kind of things? So a Troll wouldn't easily start with such a thing at the beginning of the game, right?
And don't worry about the high numbers I'm placing in my examples. I just want to figure it out. Surely I'm not trying to be a powerplayer.
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If you engaged common sense it would be clear that firing a firearm requires your entire arm at the very least to lift, aim and fire.
If you turn off common sense anything is possible.
Although given the low recoil and lightweight of a light or hold out pistol I would allow you to use it with a cyber forearm.
Personally, I don't see how a fore arm would help in shooting anything, Your forearm is both a lever and a rotation point, as a Lever it is controlled and moved by your upper arm. As a rotation point it allows both sweep and angular movement. while I could see how the ability to sweep would help in some firing situations, I don't see it helping enough to make a statistical difference in a fluid, non static combat situation. Fast draw sweep shooting (standing rooted in one spot, and sweeping the gun side to side at the same elevation) MAYBE. but running, dodging, jumping ducking AND shooting (like most combat situations) I can't see it at all.
I'm thinking a good compromise option for Partial-Arms & Pistols is to treat them the way Full Arms (x2) & Rifles/Melee is done.... IE. Average it.
So a Partial Rt. Arm (ForeArm) with Natural-Agi-3 & Augmented/Enhanced-Agi-9 firing a Pistol is averaged at Agi-6.
This seems, to me, to be a good compromise to the "Partial is Gimp v/s Overpowered" issue. And matches the way its handled for 2HD items.
Thoughts?
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Tarislar
I'd agree with that interpretation. The book gives you three options when dealing with cyberlimbs; use just the limb, average all limbs included in process, or use the weakest attribute amongst limbs.
Averaging a forearm with the rest of the arm seems like a solid compromise if you're firing a weapon one-handed.
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Tarislar: I would count all Pistols with the cyber-forearm, average bigger other one handed ranged weapons (Small than assault rifle automatics, maybe one-handed melee.), and rely on natural agility for two-handed weapons. Full cyberarms get to use their stats on one handed melee and ranged weapons. I'm sure there are melee maneuvers where the attack is not "led with the cyberlimb" like a spin or lunge/jump that do not require averaging.
Though I do see how cyber-forearms can be seen as cheap and I'm not staunchly opposed to a ruling of averaging the whole arm, I would give some leeway. As written, the rules allow one cyberarm using a one-handed weapon to rely only on that one cyber arm stat no matter the combat situation. As Reaver put it earlier, most fights have fluid combat sequences involving "running, dodging, jumping ducking AND shooting." No self-respecting shadowrunner during a fight is just standing still with a katana just windmilling it around over their shoulder calling themselves a badass street sam. But according to the standards we are holding cyber-forearms, windmilling around a weapon on your shoulder hinge is basically the only kind of fighting that a full cyberarm could use its full stats on. SMGs may be more complicated, as some have foregrips and folding stocks that may use a second hand (and in real combat I bet many would be tempted to touch with their second hand everyone now and then), there are plenty of one-handed of SMG users who use a full stat from their cybearm precisely because their cyberarm is better than their physical one and can pull it off.
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Tarislar
I'd agree with that interpretation. The book gives you three options when dealing with cyberlimbs; use just the limb, average all limbs included in process, or use the weakest attribute amongst limbs.
Averaging a forearm with the rest of the arm seems like a solid compromise if you're firing a weapon one-handed.
I disagree for one handing pistols. I'd be fine with that for melee.
The issue I have is if you go with that, then what are you doing with a Cyber Hand?
Are you going to just average that? If so then there is no reason to ever get half limb.
If you pay half the cost you should get half the benefit.
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A full limb costs 15,000¥, a lower limb costs 10,000¥, while a hand or foot costs 5,000¥. For hands you could just as easily divide by three instead of two when averaging. A full limb replacement counts for one limb, a partial replacement counts for 1/2 a limb, and a hand counts for 1/3 a limb.
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My 2 cents which ain't worth the two pennies I'm comparing it to...
You really need your whole arm to fire a pistol, though I might allow you to average out the cyber-forearm with your natural agility.
But Herr Brackhaus is right that this is a GM ruling situation and so should discuss it with him.
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For the resource price tag on half a limb averaging isn't going to be worth it. In the most extreme value case which would be 9 aug to 1 natural you will get a 5, aka a 4 die bonus, for .45 E and somewhere around 35kish, depending on your load out. But most cases your going to be looking at 2-3 die bonus. Doing that is not going to push characters into viability; it will simply be a trap option, which is a terrible thing to allow in any rules system.
My method opens a more restricted but much viable set of options. Is it going to make the realism fanatics happy? No. But if you're looking for realism then find a system premised on that; SR isn't, and is not intended to be.
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I didn't say averaging would produce great results...only that I'd allow it.
And while it's expensive for the 2-3 dice... someone might still take it purely because that's his character concept... not everyone or every table min/maxes.
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And, holy shit. Talking about Trolls. Don't they have to pay 100% more for these kind of things? So a Troll wouldn't easily start with such a thing at the beginning of the game, right?
No, the Troll's lifestyle costs double, not their equipment just as Dwarves pay 20% more for their lifestyle. The original line about gear costs has been errata'd.
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A good house rule is that cyberlimbs start with metatype minimum attribute value plus two (base strength of a troll cybernetic limb will be higher than base strength of a human cybernetic limb).
Another good house rule is that you can only customise the limb up to your natural rating (instead of metatype maximum) and from there enhance the rating by 4 (instead of 3).
...and if you later increase your natural rating then you can customise the limb up to your new natural rating.
This address a few issues
- cybernetic limbs cost for trolls and orcs
- agility 9 arm of death on a low agility decker
- scale post chargen
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Another good house rule is that you can only customise the limb up to your natural rating (instead of metatype maximum) and from there enhance the rating by 4 (instead of 3).
...and if you later increase your natural rating then you can customise the limb up to your new natural rating.
This address a few issues
- cybernetic limbs cost for trolls and orcs
- agility 9 arm of death on a low agility decker
- scale post chargen
I have that rule. All these characters with Str 1 / Agi 1 and a Agi / Str 9 Cyberarm are just silly IMO.
"Customization" makes much more sense that it customizes to your body. Not to racial maximums.
A good house rule is that cyberlimbs start with metatype minimum attribute value plus two (base strength of a troll cybernetic limb will be higher than base strength of a human cybernetic limb).
The issue with this is that Trolls get really big cyberlimbs for the same price as humans, so I just handle that with Customization, making them pay the extra to get to their natural stats.
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seems reasonable to me
If you engaged common sense it would be clear that firing a firearm requires your entire arm at the very least to lift, aim and fire.
If you turn off common sense anything is possible.
Although given the low recoil and lightweight of a light or hold out pistol I would allow you to use it with a cyber forearm.
Personally, I don't see how a fore arm would help in shooting anything, Your forearm is both a lever and a rotation point, as a Lever it is controlled and moved by your upper arm. As a rotation point it allows both sweep and angular movement. while I could see how the ability to sweep would help in some firing situations, I don't see it helping enough to make a statistical difference in a fluid, non static combat situation. Fast draw sweep shooting (standing rooted in one spot, and sweeping the gun side to side at the same elevation) MAYBE. but running, dodging, jumping ducking AND shooting (like most combat situations) I can't see it at all.
I'm thinking a good compromise option for Partial-Arms & Pistols is to treat them the way Full Arms (x2) & Rifles/Melee is done.... IE. Average it.
So a Partial Rt. Arm (ForeArm) with Natural-Agi-3 & Augmented/Enhanced-Agi-9 firing a Pistol is averaged at Agi-6.
This seems, to me, to be a good compromise to the "Partial is Gimp v/s Overpowered" issue. And matches the way its handled for 2HD items.
Thoughts?
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A good house rule is that cyberlimbs start with metatype minimum attribute value plus two (base strength of a troll cybernetic limb will be higher than base strength of a human cybernetic limb).
Another good house rule is that you can only customise the limb up to your natural rating (instead of metatype maximum) and from there enhance the rating by 4 (instead of 3).
...and if you later increase your natural rating then you can customise the limb up to your new natural rating.
This address a few issues
- cybernetic limbs cost for trolls and orcs
- agility 9 arm of death on a low agility decker
- scale post chargen
So basically you make Cyberlimbs completely & totally irrelevant. That sucks... the game itself already does a very good job of punishing them except in very niche characters, you smash the niches too. There is very little value for a Street Sam in taking Cyberlimbs currently, that houserule eliminates the Decker or Face Gunarm(s) option as well. Since your Movement is tied to your Natural Agility (without an houserule for both legs counting) & not being factored into Physical Limits so any decent hit is going to knock you down without good stats already. It is much better for a Sam to have good stats and then raise the Stats themselves without sinking the +70,000¥ (×2 for a Sam so they can use 2 handed weapons) (counting the full cost of the extra gizmos) for a Human, more more for Trolls & Orks. Used Muscle Toner 3 costs 72,000¥ & you get that bonus to Movement & Sneaking/Gymnastics tests for only .75 Essence as opposed to 2 Essence needed for Assault Rifles, Longarms, & Heavy Weapons.
So it will cost twice as much to have higher strength (or the same for similar strength scores), some Armor, & a couple neat gizmos at almost double the Essence Cost with a slower movement speed. The Archetype Street Sam is about the best possible example of Cyberlimbs since he is Sword based melee... using a Monofilament Whip makes even that obsolete though.
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I'm thinking a good compromise option for Partial-Arms & Pistols is to treat them the way Full Arms (x2) & Rifles/Melee is done.... IE. Average it.
So a Partial Rt. Arm (ForeArm) with Natural-Agi-3 & Augmented/Enhanced-Agi-9 firing a Pistol is averaged at Agi-6.
This seems, to me, to be a good compromise to the "Partial is Gimp v/s Overpowered" issue. And matches the way its handled for 2HD items.
Thoughts?
The problem remains, 3 dice for .45 essence and 35k+, and you're still not making the character viable while creating a trap option within the rules. On top of that we still don't know what to do with the hand category. Until all those points are addressed we don't have a useful solution imo.
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I guess that depends on your defination of 'viable'....
Not everything has to be about shooting better.
A cyberforearm still provides armor, a place to hide items, the option for a cybergun (if you really HAVE to weaponize it)....
In short, there are plenty of options for partial arms, and no, they don't HAVE to boost your ability to go 'bang'
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So basically you make Cyberlimbs completely & totally irrelevant. That sucks... the game itself already does a very good job of punishing them except in very niche characters, you smash the niches too. There is very little value for a Street Sam in taking Cyberlimbs currently, that houserule eliminates the Decker or Face Gunarm(s) option as well. Since your Movement is tied to your Natural Agility (without an houserule for both legs counting) & not being factored into Physical Limits so any decent hit is going to knock you down without good stats already. It is much better for a Sam to have good stats and then raise the Stats themselves without sinking the +70,000¥ (×2 for a Sam so they can use 2 handed weapons) (counting the full cost of the extra gizmos) for a Human, more more for Trolls & Orks. Used Muscle Toner 3 costs 72,000¥ & you get that bonus to Movement & Sneaking/Gymnastics tests for only .75 Essence as opposed to 2 Essence needed for Assault Rifles, Longarms, & Heavy Weapons.
So it will cost twice as much to have higher strength (or the same for similar strength scores), some Armor, & a couple neat gizmos at almost double the Essence Cost with a slower movement speed. The Archetype Street Sam is about the best possible example of Cyberlimbs since he is Sword based melee... using a Monofilament Whip makes even that obsolete though.
Although I get what you are saying, I don't reach the same conclusion at all. I find cyberlimbs actually to be quite good if only for the Armor. Your point about multiple limbs is well taken but looking at a single cyberarm for characters that use one-handed weapons it is excellent. For 1 essence you can have +3 agility, +3 strength and +3 armor (+2 at chargen) and then on top of that have other fun toys built in, like cyberguns and spurs without any extra essence cost. Its a fantastic deal.
They may not be the best choice for full body enhancement, but as always.. there are trade-offs.
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So basically you make Cyberlimbs completely & totally irrelevant. That sucks... the game itself already does a very good job of punishing them except in very niche characters, you smash the niches too. There is very little value for a Street Sam in taking Cyberlimbs currently, that houserule eliminates the Decker or Face Gunarm(s) option as well. Since your Movement is tied to your Natural Agility (without an houserule for both legs counting) & not being factored into Physical Limits so any decent hit is going to knock you down without good stats already. It is much better for a Sam to have good stats and then raise the Stats themselves without sinking the +70,000¥ (×2 for a Sam so they can use 2 handed weapons) (counting the full cost of the extra gizmos) for a Human, more more for Trolls & Orks. Used Muscle Toner 3 costs 72,000¥ & you get that bonus to Movement & Sneaking/Gymnastics tests for only .75 Essence as opposed to 2 Essence needed for Assault Rifles, Longarms, & Heavy Weapons.
So it will cost twice as much to have higher strength (or the same for similar strength scores), some Armor, & a couple neat gizmos at almost double the Essence Cost with a slower movement speed. The Archetype Street Sam is about the best possible example of Cyberlimbs since he is Sword based melee... using a Monofilament Whip makes even that obsolete though.
Although I get what you are saying, I don't reach the same conclusion at all. I find cyberlimbs actually to be quite good if only for the Armor. Your point about multiple limbs is well taken but looking at a single cyberarm for characters that use one-handed weapons it is excellent. For 1 essence you can have +3 agility, +3 strength and +3 armor (+2 at chargen) and then on top of that have other fun toys built in, like cyberguns and spurs without any extra essence cost. Its a fantastic deal.
They may not be the best choice for full body enhancement, but as always.. there are trade-offs.
I agree... it's a good investment for a Decker/Face/Rigger who is going to be a secondary fighter. My point was that Xenon has a houserule that smashes that usefulnes... by limiting the Customization of the Limbs Attributes to the Attributes you currently have then requiring Enhancements to go father, it's better to just boost your Attributes with Used Muscle Toner. Even if you raised your Agility with Karma that'd then require a new customized cyberlimb to be bought without another Houserule about adding customization after creation. I'm leery of houserule holes where you have to keep repeatedly making new rule changes to accommodate previous rule changes.
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I agree... it's a good investment for a Decker/Face/Rigger who is going to be a secondary fighter. My point was that Xenon has a houserule that smashes that usefulnes... by limiting the Customization of the Limbs Attributes to the Attributes you currently have then requiring Enhancements to go father, it's better to just boost your Attributes with Used Muscle Toner. Even if you raised your Agility with Karma that'd then require a new customized cyberlimb to be bought without another Houserule about adding customization after creation. I'm leery of houserule holes where you have to keep repeatedly making new rule changes to accommodate previous rule changes.
I'm a little confused. Muscle Toner, which at Rating 3 would cost 140,000 nuyen and 0.75 essence and gets you +3 Agility. How does this even remotely compare to a Cyberarm with 3 Agility and 3 Str and 2 Armor that costs.65,000 nuyen??
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I guess that depends on your defination of 'viable'....
Not everything has to be about shooting better.
A cyberforearm still provides armor, a place to hide items, the option for a cybergun (if you really HAVE to weaponize it)....
In short, there are plenty of options for partial arms, and no, they don't HAVE to boost your ability to go 'bang'
I'm not saying every option needs to be equally good, I'm saying we should not allow options we know are non-viable or if you dislike the way I use viable how about, options that will prevent a character from being of meaningful use in what likely will be a common situation over the course of a run. Is that more clear?
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So basically you make Cyberlimbs completely & totally irrelevant. That sucks...
I made them viable for a physically strong orc street samurai to get cyberlimbs (which is pretty darn iconic if you ask me).
SR5 corerules only promote physicality weak characters to get get agility 9 arm of death and armored feet/hands. It is very hard/expansive for a troll samurai to get an arm under current rules, but very powerful for a decker...
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I agree... it's a good investment for a Decker/Face/Rigger who is going to be a secondary fighter. My point was that Xenon has a houserule that smashes that usefulnes... by limiting the Customization of the Limbs Attributes to the Attributes you currently have then requiring Enhancements to go father, it's better to just boost your Attributes with Used Muscle Toner. Even if you raised your Agility with Karma that'd then require a new customized cyberlimb to be bought without another Houserule about adding customization after creation. I'm leery of houserule holes where you have to keep repeatedly making new rule changes to accommodate previous rule changes.
I'm a little confused. Muscle Toner, which at Rating 3 would cost 140,000 nuyen and 0.75 essence and gets you +3 Agility. How does this even remotely compare to a Cyberarm with 3 Agility and 3 Str and 2 Armor that costs.65,000 nuyen??
Bad Math.... 32,000×3×.75=72,000 have no idea where you got 140,000 from.
So basically you make Cyberlimbs completely & totally irrelevant. That sucks...
I made them viable for a physically strong orc street samurai to get cyberlimbs (which is pretty darn iconic if you ask me).
SR5 corerules only promote physicality weak characters to get get agility 9 arm of death and armored feet/hands. It is very hard/expansive for a troll samurai to get an arm under current rules, but very powerful for a decker...
Even there it makes the very best possible version a joke, which was the last place it wasn't. The Street Sam Archetype has his Strength maxed at 11 for his Sword Mele, the monowhip just barely beats it out... your houserule kills even that tiny claim to fame. Reduces down to 9 at best.
I agree that armor hand/Feet abuse it just that Abuse. Being able to shoot is very nice but when you can't run, jump, dodge, hide, or climb too... not game breaking. Do you use Grids for Combat or is it more just descriptive storytelling based? Grid based Combat shows how not that amazing they really are while a storytelling based combat can mitigate those deficiencies to a higher degree.
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Just realized I didn't post the house rule in its full the other day
(and even made a few errors when doing it...)
here is the link to the house rule as i intended it:
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=18539.0
tl;dr
- Cyberlimbs now start out with metatype minimum strength plus two and metatype minimum agility plus two
- You can now only customize your cyberlimb up to your natural (non-augmented) attribute rating plus two
- Cyberlimbs can now be customized up during game-play (if for example the natural attribute increase)
- Cyberlimbs can now be customized one point beyond your metatype maximum rating if your natural attribute is maxed out
- Armor enhancement for hands and feet only come at rating 1
- Armor enhancement for lower arms and lower legs only come at rating 1-2
Cyberlimbs are traditionally super iconic for the street samurai archetype.
This is also the archetype that is most likely to (at least eventually) max out some of their physical attributes.
If your cyberlimb can't reach your augmented maximum rating then a street samurai that is likely to (eventually) max out some of their physical attributes might choose to not throw a ton of money cyberlimbs (as they at this point it will make him potentially weaker, not stronger).
Maxing out your physical attribute, getting a matching cyberlimb and maxing out your cyberlimb will be kinda expansive. Most people will probably never end up in that situation at all. But I still feel that is [very] important that it is there. To encourage street samurai's to get cyberlimbs (or at least not discourage them).
And as cyberlimbs now sort of "scale" as your natural attributes increase it totally fit (or else your would "max out" and no longer "scale" once your get metatype minimal value + 3, or strength/agility 4 for a human).
6 agility on an agility 1 character = +5 (or one higher than augmented maximum)
7 agility on an agility 2 character = +5 (or one higher than augmented maximum)
8 agility on an agility 3 character = +5 (or one higher than augmented maximum)
9 agility on an agility 4 character = +5 (or one higher than augmented maximum)
9 agility on an agility 5 character = +4 (or same as augmented maximum)
10 agility on an agility 6 character = +4 (or same as augmented maximum)
Compared to core where you have:
9 agility on an agility 1 character = +8 (or four higher than augmented maximum)
9 agility on an agility 2 character = +7 (or three higher than augmented maximum)
9 agility on an agility 3 character = +6 (or two higher than augmented maximum)
9 agility on an agility 4 character = +5 (or one higher than augmented maximum)
9 agility on an agility 5 character = +4 (or same as augmented maximum)
9 agility on an agility 6 character = +3 (or one under augmented maximum)
See how the benefit of using cyberlimbs in my house rule is reduced for physically weak characters (like deckers that traditionally isn't an iconic archetype for chromed limbs) and even increased for someone that is (at least eventually) likely to max out their physical attributes (like a street samurai that traditionally is an iconic archetype for chromed limbs).
- and relatively untouched by users that have physical attributes in the 3-5 range (and i think most people agree that cyberlimbs were never an issue for this category to begin with).
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Bad Math.... 32,000×3×.75=72,000 have no idea where you got 140,000 from.
Sorry, I edited my post. The 140,00 was with Muscle Toner and Muscle Augmentation at 3.
But even at 72,000 the cyberlimb is cheaper and gives you WAY more. (3 STR and 3 AGI and 2 armor).
Even there it makes the very best possible version a joke, which was the last place it wasn't. The Street Sam Archetype has his Strength maxed at 11 for his Sword Melee, the monowhip just barely beats it out... your houserule kills even that tiny claim to fame. Reduces down to 9 at best.
That char would still have Agility 9, but only Strength 8 under my rules. So yes. His sword damage is "only" 11P, -3AP.
BUT.. with STR 11 he'd have 14P, -3P with it while the monowhip is still 12P, -8AP and Reach 2. Monowhip is still better by a longshot.
The problem here IMO is the monowhip... not the cyberlimb. Monowhips are stupidly overpowered (and available at chargen).
That is a different discussion.
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I apologize Xenon... I forgot what I know about you from your posts. If anyone was going to recreate an entire system of Logical, well thought out, & cohesive houserule system that I'd back 100% to have replace Core... it's you! That seems like a very good job that addressed all the issues I saw (well I only got about 4 deep before I quit cause I'm lazy) & still allows Gunarm for an reasonable characters, prevents cheese builds (I just yell at people if they try because again I'm lazy), & actively rewards Street Sams if they invest to make them great (Agility 10 at Chargen is possible.)
*claps*